Kolb-List Digest Archive

Fri 08/08/08


Total Messages Posted: 22



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:24 AM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (ross richardson)
     2. 02:41 AM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (pj.ladd)
     3. 02:45 AM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (pj.ladd)
     4. 02:45 AM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (icrashrc)
     5. 06:51 AM - Kolb Design (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
     6. 07:41 AM - Re: Kolb Design (robert bean)
     7. 11:59 AM - Re: Kolb Design (boyd)
     8. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing ()
     9. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing ()
    10. 01:19 PM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin (JetPilot)
    11. 01:23 PM - Re: Kolb Design (robert bean)
    12. 02:16 PM - carbs (robert bean)
    13. 02:36 PM - 08-08-08  (Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL)
    14. 03:06 PM - Re: Kolb Design (possums)
    15. 05:21 PM - Can you identify this fabric? (rlaird)
    16. 05:35 PM - Re: Can you identify this fabric? (John Hauck)
    17. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin (John Hauck)
    18. 05:46 PM - Re: Can you identify this fabric? (Robert Laird)
    19. 05:52 PM - Re: Can you identify this fabric? (John Hauck)
    20. 08:22 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin (boyd)
    21. 08:22 PM - Re: Kolb Design (boyd)
    22. 11:23 PM - Re: carbs (The BaronVonEvil)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:24:13 AM PST US
    From: ross richardson <smlplanet@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns,
    Landing Hi and thanks for the intrest and info. I have a Kolb Mak III / UL912 that I am thinking about putting the VG's on. I'm the back 40 type flier type with the large tires and steel landing gear . I'm working on a larger alum fuel tank so I can take longer XC flights wi th out so many fuel stops. I also have a challenger cws II that I put the d rooped wing tip on and made big differance for the better. After pricing Ko lbs drooped wing tips I am going to pull a mold off the challenger and fit to the kolb wings. If they work as well on the kolb as the challenger that will will be great. I'm also looking for a pair of floats with retractable gear if possible=2C flying over the everglades and gulf of mexico will make me feel a little better. I just wish the kolb had a higher VNE. I picked up a bug in the ASI tube on e day and didn't know what speed I was running at. I found some calm air an d the GPS said I was doing 130mph. Normally I can tell by the rpm but had 1 0-15mph wind and guest up to 30mph so the rpm didn't do much good. Your plane looks great. What are the air scoops on the sides for or just lo oks? Got rid of new wife and now I can spend monies on my toys again=2C besides toys are cheaper than a wife to maintain. > Date: Thu=2C 7 Aug 2008 23:04:02 -0400> To: kolb-list@matronics.com> From : possums@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls=2C Slow Flight=2C Turns=2C Landing> > At 10:23 PM 8/7/2008=2C you wr > >> >Possums=2C> >> >What airplane are you flying now ? Which engine does it have > >? How does it compare to the Kolb ?> > I wrecked my 447 Firestar back in '97 after 600 hrs. So I had the > chance to rebuild it like I want ed.> Same wing ribs you've got - just more of them (8) per wing=2C 4 inch > wider cockpit=2C shorter wings=2C different wing tips etc.> 503 CDI=2C sav ed the nosecone & the stick & some hardware. It's heavier=2C but the> VGs m ore than make up for that. It's basically a kolb except for the back end.> I like it better without the windshield when it hot. But it will > glide li ke a poor performance sailplane.> >


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:41:31 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Aircraft Drag Componts
    He also said that the airplanes that use them(VG`s) are normally so aerodynamically dirty that the extra drag isn't noticeable. >> Hi, surely that must be a bit tongue in cheek. They are appearing more and more on commercial airliners and I don`t think they could be described as `dirty` Pat


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:45:33 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: best Kolb (Air Bags)
    I have 3 of those! >> Good grief! When do you find time to fly? Pat :-)


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:45:37 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing
    From: "icrashrc" <icrashrc@aol.com>
    [/quote] Here's you some from "LandShorter" http://www.landshorter.com/page10.html I don't think it would affect fuel usage at all, only performance at low speeds. They will not (in theory) affect your cruise speed - if placed properly. I would send you some of me flying at 25 mph in my 400+ pound one-seat 27 ft. wing semi-kolb knock-off (see ....I've had kolbs before, so I can still make comments on the list). Jerk it around, yank it up & down all at stall speed. But I erased them from YouTube and I'm sure you don't want to download a 16 MB file.[/quote] If you want to email me the file i'll be happy to make it a more reasonable size[but higher quality than youtube] and host it on my site for a while. icrashrc at aol dot com -------- Scott www.ill-EagleAviation.com do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197277#197277


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:51:03 AM PST US
    From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
    Subject: Kolb Design
    While I was at Oshkosh I had a talk with Homer Kolb. He made a comment that really surprised me. He said that he was disappointed that New Kolb hadn't refined the planes more. When I asked him what he meant he said that for example the MKIIIX that they are displaying at the show needs to have a better airfoil for the speed range the plane is capable of. He then started talking about airfoils with Reynolds numbers that would be a much better match. The stall speed would increase a bit but the cruise speed increase would be dramatic. I don't know anything about airfoil numbers so that went over my head. What do you guys think? I agree with the comment that Homer looked younger. I think that he misses the old times and might just jump at a chance at improving his design. He said he would only say something if he were asked. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:41:34 AM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb Design
    I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old planes but with the lower drag of the xtra, a wing drag reduction should be in the works. Most wing spars take the full thickness of the wing. On the MkIII there is a good bit of space that can be reduced. The leading edge radius can be increased some too at very little lift sacrifice. BB On 8, Aug 2008, at 9:50 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > While I was at Oshkosh I had a talk with Homer Kolb. He made a > comment that really surprised me. He said that he was disappointed > that New Kolb hadn't refined the planes more. When I asked him what > he meant he said that for example the MKIIIX that they are > displaying at the show needs to have a better airfoil for the speed > range the plane is capable of. He then started talking about > airfoils with Reynolds numbers that would be a much better match. > The stall speed would increase a bit but the cruise speed increase > would be dramatic. I don't know anything about airfoil numbers so > that went over my head. What do you guys think? > > I agree with the comment that Homer looked younger. I think that he > misses the old times and might just jump at a chance at improving > his design. He said he would only say something if he were asked. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:59:31 AM PST US
    From: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
    Subject: Kolb Design
    I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old planes but with the lower drag of the xtra, a wing drag reduction should be in the works. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. I guess I had always thought that if I were to build another set of wings I would do some research in raising the leading edge tube an inch to an inch and half. By doing this I would think that you could decrease the wing incidence in flight with near the same lift. Making it a bit faster,,, moving the leading edge up would give it a profile more like the super cub. Anyone smarter than I know what effect it would have? Boyd Young Kolb MkIII C 535+ hours and counting Brigham City Utah.


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:21:38 PM PST US
    From: <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns,
    Landing ---- ross richardson <smlplanet@msn.com> wrote: Have you noticed any differance as to gallons per hour at curise speeds. Right now on my M III/ul912 in calm air I run 65-70 mph at 3700 rpm 80 mph at 4000-4200 rpm with out any VG's. Ross R/Gang: A normal MKIII with 912UL should cruise about 80 mph at 5,000 rpm, burning 4 gph. A 912ULS cruises 80 to 85 mph at 5,000 rpm, burning 5 gph. A 582 on my mkIII cruised 75 to 80 mph at 5,800 rpm burning 5.5 gph. Either you have a very slick mkIII or your ASI is more than a little proud. ;-) Almost forgot to add, that is without VGs. My mkIII is very draggy in several areas: 1 - At the rear of the entrance doors in the area of the rear quarter windows. 2 - At the intersection of the windshield and the bottom of the wing. Not to mention the 800X6 tires, radiators, 8" pneumatic tailwheel, tail wires, and engine. john h mkIII - Heading home after 650+ trail miles on the Honda Rincon in two weeks in TN and KY. Time to get the MKIII out, dust it off, and see if I can still fly. Kolb Homecoming is right around the corner, 3d weekend of Sep.


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:32:47 PM PST US
    From: <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns,
    Landing ---- ross richardson <smlplanet@msn.com> wrote: I found some calm air and the GPS said I was doing 130mph. Normally I can tell by the rpm but had 10-15mph wind and guest up to 30mph so the rpm didn't do much good. Ross R/Gang: Correct me if I am wrong. I was under the impression there wasn't much correlation between airspeed/engine rpm and ground speed. Ground speed is determined by airspeed, wind direction and speed, and direction of flight. However, to get 130 mph ground speed in a MKIII, you'd have to have a 35 mph tail wind. 95 mph WOT straight and level airspeed in a MKIII is about max, no matter what engine you have pushing it. Maybe you can share your secret for 130 mph cruise with the rest of us slow poke MKIII flyers? ;-) john h mkIII


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:19:58 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin
    From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
    John Hauck wrote: > ---- > > Maybe you can share your secret for 130 mph cruise with the rest of us slow poke MKIII flyers? ;-) > > john h > mkIII Maybe he put VG's on the prop [Wink] I would have guessed tailwind also, but flying with that much wind would just scare me. That does bring up a question though, what is the maximum wind you have ever landed in John ? I have seen you comment on high winds while flying cross country, what is the maximum wind speed you would launch in for flying over flat terrain ? Mike -------- &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197401#197401


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:23:25 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb Design
    Boyd, raising the leading edge tube and retaining the same diameter tube would reduce lift and increase cruise. Increasing the radius of the leading edge and maintaining a flat bottom (have to raise it a mite to do this) would help cruise with less loss of lift. The air would be able to find its path easier according to angle of attack. I have thought about attaching a temporary cuff on mine to test the change in flight characteristics. Life is too short and projects too many. BB On 8, Aug 2008, at 2:58 PM, boyd wrote: > I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old > planes but with the lower drag of the xtra, > a wing drag reduction should be in the works. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > > I guess I had always thought that if I were to build another set of > wings I would do some research in raising the leading edge tube an > inch to an inch and half. By doing this I would think that you > could decrease the wing incidence in flight with near the same > lift. Making it a bit faster,,, moving the leading edge up > would give it a profile more like the super cub. Anyone smarter > than I know what effect it would have? > > Boyd Young > Kolb MkIII C 535+ hours and counting > Brigham City Utah. > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:16:33 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: carbs
    I went through some of the archives but didn't find anything pertinent. My neighbor has a VERY low time flightstar that he assembled. It ran fine initially but now is experiencing too much rpm reduction at idle, to the point of quitting. It is a dual carb 503. He hasn't made any changes since start except recently rechecking the recommended screw settings. Any insight would be appreciated. I have never held a bing in my hands. BB


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:36:29 PM PST US
    Subject: 08-08-08
    From: "Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
    I took a beautiful morning flight today. The air was milky smooth. I flew a little less than an hour. So my logbook says I took off at 08:08, on 08-08-08, and flew 0.8 hrs. The effort was worth the logbook entry. Dennis Kirby Mark-3, 912ul in Cedar Crest, NM


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:06:54 PM PST US
    From: possums <possums@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Kolb Design
    At 02:58 PM 8/8/2008, you wrote: >I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old >planes but with the lower drag of the xtra, >a wing drag reduction should be in the works. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > >I guess I had always thought that if I were to build another set of >wings I would do some research in raising the leading edge tube an >inch to an inch and half. By doing this I would think that you >could decrease the wing incidence in flight with near the same >lift. Making it a bit faster,,, moving the leading edge up would >give it a profile more like the super cub. Anyone smarter than I >know what effect it would have? These ribs maybe more what he is talking about. Thinner & not flat bottomed.


    Message 15


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    Time: 05:21:00 PM PST US
    Subject: Can you identify this fabric?
    From: "rlaird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
    Could someone please take a look at the attached image and tell me what weight of Poly-Fiber fabric this is? Thanks! -- Robert -------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert Laird MkIIIc/912ULS Houston, TX http://www.Texas-Flyer.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197441#197441 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fabric_mark_914.jpg


    Message 16


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    Time: 05:35:37 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Can you identify this fabric?
    > Could someone please take a look at the attached image and tell me what weight of Poly-Fiber fabric this is? Thanks! > > -- Robert Robert L: D-104 is 1.6 oz. It is stamped on the fabric in your photo. That is what we covered the wings and tail with some years ago. I used D-103, 3.6? oz for the fuselage of my FS, 1986. john h mkIII


    Message 17


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    Time: 05:46:10 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin
    > That does bring up a question though, what is the maximum wind you have ever landed in John ? I have seen you comment on high winds while flying cross country, what is the maximum wind speed you would launch in for flying over flat terrain ? > > Mike Mike B: I don't know. Would depend on where I was flying to and where the wind was coming from. If it was a tailwind I might be tempted to push a little. Urgency of my flight would have a lot to do with a decision to fly in highwinds. Last May, John W and I were grounded for three days at Ontario, OR, with 35 to 55 mph winds. Most of that three days the wind was steady at 43 mph. There is a great deal of difference getting caught in high winds while aloft, and making a decision to take off into high winds. Usually, when the wind is high, the terrain will also be lumpy. ;-) john h mkIII


    Message 18


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    Time: 05:46:44 PM PST US
    From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
    Subject: Re: Can you identify this fabric?
    Thanks, John. If I were to patch my wing (upper surface) should I use the same 1.6 oz fabric, or go up to the medium? -- Robert On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 7:33 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: > > Could someone please take a look at the attached image and tell me what > weight of Poly-Fiber fabric this is? Thanks! > >> >> -- Robert >> > > Robert L: > > D-104 is 1.6 oz. It is stamped on the fabric in your photo. That is what > we covered the wings and tail with some years ago. > > I used D-103, 3.6? oz for the fuselage of my FS, 1986. > > john h > mkIII > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 05:52:45 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Can you identify this fabric?
    Robert L: Probably would not matter much. The weave of 1.6 is much finer than the heavier fabric. Correct me if I am wrong, but that would be the biggest difference when doped and painted. How big is the hole? If small, I'd stick a "sticker" on it. My mkIII is h eld together with stickers. john h mkIII Thanks, John. If I were to patch my wing (upper surface) should I use th e same 1.6 oz fabric, or go up to the medium? -- Robert


    Message 20


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    Time: 08:22:44 PM PST US
    From: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin
    That does bring up a question though, what is the maximum wind you have ever landed in took off from monument valley with around 10 mile wind... landed in Cedar City Ut. With 25 gusting to 35... left Cedar the following morning with 15 gusting to 20. made the 260 miles to home in just over 2 hours, the gps showed the max ground speed at 138, asi showed 70. I have landed in cross winds strong enough that I could not keep straight with the runway, so I approached the runway at a 40 Deg angle and landed at an angle. Landed on the edge of the runway and stopped by time I hit the center line. Those were not my best moment... but it shows what the plane will do. Boyd


    Message 21


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    Time: 08:22:44 PM PST US
    From: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
    Subject: Kolb Design
    These ribs maybe more what he is talking about. Thinner & not flat bottomed. Possums >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. That was the nose profile I was thinking about.. But the convex bottom was not in my mental snapshot. What are you building that set of wings for? Boyd Young Kolb MKIIIC Brigham City Ut.


    Message 22


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    Time: 11:23:33 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: carbs
    From: "The BaronVonEvil" <grageda@innw.net>
    HI SLYCK, I would start by checking the carbs bowls for dirt and gloop. Make sure everything is clean and fresh fuel is being used. Check the keepers on the jet needles to make sure they are matched and in the same groove position. If that is okay then check for synchonization of the carbs. Basically make sure they are both opening and closing at the same time and at the same amount. You will have to remove the airfilter to do this. There are two needle adjustments on the Bings. The large needle sets the idle speed stop or the position of the slide valve. You can use a drill bit as a gauge to do the initial setting of both carb idle stops. You want the stops at the carb to be the ones that control the idle speed and not the throttle cable or throttle stops at the throttle lever. Once you are sure the carbs are opening and closing equally and at the same time, reinstall the airfilter. There is another smaller needle screw that set the idle mixture of the carb. I start by lightly seating the needle screw then backing it out one full turn. Do this for both carbs. This will get you "In the ball park" to start the engine. Once you have the engine running you can make further adjustments to suite the situation. If the idle speed is too high, stop the engine and back both idle speed screws off about 1/8th turn. Check idle speed again. You want to have the idle speed set at about 1600 rpm. This may seem low but then you have a little wriggle room with the throttle handle to set the desired rpm up a bit so that the gear box doesn't rattle at idle. To adjust the mixture I start the engine and listen and watch it carefully. Listen to the rpm and watch the exhaust. If it is too rich, the engine will gradually slow and blubber and the exhaust will be come excessively smokey. The EGT's may not even show on the gauge. If so, stop the engine, then just screw in the idle mixture screw of both carbs a 1/8th of a turn. Start and check again. If the engine is to lean. the engine will start and speed up slightly for a moment or two then slow down. There will be very little smoke in the exhaust. The EGT's may show a rise and then a decline in temps. If so stop the engine and open the idle mixture screws a 1/8th turn and start again. What you want is a steady rpm at idle and a clean acceleration of the engine from idle to higher power settings. You'll end up with a slightly rich idle since there is no accelerator pump in the carb. The engine will idle for extended period of time but will eventually load up with fuel. It may sputter a bit from prolong idleling as the engine is accelerated to higher power settings. If the engine is lean, it will die from idle to a higher power setting because it needs that extra bit of fuel to help it accelerate (Remember, no accelerator pump in carb). If you can get your hands on a carb vacuum gage, this will help balance the carbs even better because you are setting by airflow rather than just mechanical adjustments. But, if not these adjustments will be pretty darn close if you take your time. If all else fails, find a friendly motorcycle or a snowmobile mechanic as they should have a good idea as to how to make any needed adjustments to a multiple carburetor 2 cycle engine. Just my .02$ Carlos G Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197481#197481




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