Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:24 AM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (ross richardson)
2. 02:41 AM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (pj.ladd)
3. 02:45 AM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (pj.ladd)
4. 02:45 AM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (icrashrc)
5. 06:51 AM - Kolb Design (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
6. 07:41 AM - Re: Kolb Design (robert bean)
7. 11:59 AM - Re: Kolb Design (boyd)
8. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing ()
9. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing ()
10. 01:19 PM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin (JetPilot)
11. 01:23 PM - Re: Kolb Design (robert bean)
12. 02:16 PM - carbs (robert bean)
13. 02:36 PM - 08-08-08 (Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL)
14. 03:06 PM - Re: Kolb Design (possums)
15. 05:21 PM - Can you identify this fabric? (rlaird)
16. 05:35 PM - Re: Can you identify this fabric? (John Hauck)
17. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin (John Hauck)
18. 05:46 PM - Re: Can you identify this fabric? (Robert Laird)
19. 05:52 PM - Re: Can you identify this fabric? (John Hauck)
20. 08:22 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin (boyd)
21. 08:22 PM - Re: Kolb Design (boyd)
22. 11:23 PM - Re: carbs (The BaronVonEvil)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, |
Landing
Hi and thanks for the intrest and info. I have a Kolb Mak III / UL912 that
I am thinking about putting the VG's on.
I'm the back 40 type flier type with the large tires and steel landing gear
. I'm working on a larger alum fuel tank so I can take longer XC flights wi
th out so many fuel stops. I also have a challenger cws II that I put the d
rooped wing tip on and made big differance for the better. After pricing Ko
lbs drooped wing tips I am going to pull a mold off the challenger and fit
to the kolb wings. If they work as well on the kolb as the challenger that
will will be great. I'm also looking for a pair of floats with retractable
gear if possible=2C flying over the everglades and gulf of mexico will make
me feel a little better.
I just wish the kolb had a higher VNE. I picked up a bug in the ASI tube on
e day and didn't know what speed I was running at. I found some calm air an
d the GPS said I was doing 130mph. Normally I can tell by the rpm but had 1
0-15mph wind and guest up to 30mph so the rpm didn't do much good.
Your plane looks great. What are the air scoops on the sides for or just lo
oks?
Got rid of new wife and now I can spend monies on my toys again=2C besides
toys are cheaper than a wife to maintain.
> Date: Thu=2C 7 Aug 2008 23:04:02 -0400> To: kolb-list@matronics.com> From
: possums@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: VG Performance Video:
Stalls=2C Slow Flight=2C Turns=2C Landing> > At 10:23 PM 8/7/2008=2C you wr
> >> >Possums=2C> >> >What airplane are you flying now ? Which engine does
it have > >? How does it compare to the Kolb ?> > I wrecked my 447 Firestar
back in '97 after 600 hrs. So I had the > chance to rebuild it like I want
ed.> Same wing ribs you've got - just more of them (8) per wing=2C 4 inch >
wider cockpit=2C shorter wings=2C different wing tips etc.> 503 CDI=2C sav
ed the nosecone & the stick & some hardware. It's heavier=2C but the> VGs m
ore than make up for that. It's basically a kolb except for the back end.>
I like it better without the windshield when it hot. But it will > glide li
ke a poor performance sailplane.> >
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Drag Componts |
He also said that the airplanes that use them(VG`s) are normally so
aerodynamically dirty that the extra drag isn't noticeable. >>
Hi, surely that must be a bit tongue in cheek. They are appearing more
and more on commercial airliners and I don`t think they could be
described as `dirty`
Pat
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) |
I have 3 of those! >>
Good grief! When do you find time to fly?
Pat :-)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing |
[/quote]
Here's you some from "LandShorter"
http://www.landshorter.com/page10.html
I don't think it would affect fuel usage at all, only performance at
low speeds.
They will not (in theory) affect your cruise speed - if placed properly.
I would send you some of me flying at 25 mph in my 400+ pound
one-seat 27 ft. wing semi-kolb knock-off (see ....I've had kolbs
before, so I can
still make comments on the list). Jerk it around, yank it up & down
all at stall speed.
But I erased them from YouTube and I'm sure you don't want to download
a 16 MB file.[/quote]
If you want to email me the file i'll be happy to make it a more reasonable size[but
higher quality than youtube] and host it on my site for a while. icrashrc
at aol dot com
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197277#197277
Message 5
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While I was at Oshkosh I had a talk with Homer Kolb. He made a comment
that really surprised me. He said that he was disappointed that New Kolb
hadn't refined the planes more. When I asked him what he meant he said
that for example the MKIIIX that they are displaying at the show needs
to have a better airfoil for the speed range the plane is capable of. He
then started talking about airfoils with Reynolds numbers that would be
a much better match. The stall speed would increase a bit but the cruise
speed increase would be dramatic. I don't know anything about airfoil
numbers so that went over my head. What do you guys think?
I agree with the comment that Homer looked younger. I think that he
misses the old times and might just jump at a chance at improving his
design. He said he would only say something if he were asked.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Message 6
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I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old
planes but with the lower drag of the xtra,
a wing drag reduction should be in the works. Most wing spars take
the full thickness of the wing.
On the MkIII there is a good bit of space that can be reduced. The
leading edge radius can be increased some
too at very little lift sacrifice.
BB
On 8, Aug 2008, at 9:50 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
> While I was at Oshkosh I had a talk with Homer Kolb. He made a
> comment that really surprised me. He said that he was disappointed
> that New Kolb hadn't refined the planes more. When I asked him what
> he meant he said that for example the MKIIIX that they are
> displaying at the show needs to have a better airfoil for the speed
> range the plane is capable of. He then started talking about
> airfoils with Reynolds numbers that would be a much better match.
> The stall speed would increase a bit but the cruise speed increase
> would be dramatic. I don't know anything about airfoil numbers so
> that went over my head. What do you guys think?
>
> I agree with the comment that Homer looked younger. I think that he
> misses the old times and might just jump at a chance at improving
> his design. He said he would only say something if he were asked.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
>
Message 7
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I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old planes but
with the lower drag of the xtra,
a wing drag reduction should be in the works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I guess I had always thought that if I were to build another set of wings I
would do some research in raising the leading edge tube an inch to an inch
and half. By doing this I would think that you could decrease the wing
incidence in flight with near the same lift. Making it a bit faster,,,
moving the leading edge up would give it a profile more like the super cub.
Anyone smarter than I know what effect it would have?
Boyd Young
Kolb MkIII C 535+ hours and counting
Brigham City Utah.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, |
Landing
---- ross richardson <smlplanet@msn.com> wrote:
Have you noticed any differance as to gallons per hour at curise speeds. Right
now on my M III/ul912 in calm air I run 65-70 mph at 3700 rpm 80 mph at 4000-4200
rpm with out any VG's.
Ross R/Gang:
A normal MKIII with 912UL should cruise about 80 mph at 5,000 rpm, burning 4 gph.
A 912ULS cruises 80 to 85 mph at 5,000 rpm, burning 5 gph.
A 582 on my mkIII cruised 75 to 80 mph at 5,800 rpm burning 5.5 gph.
Either you have a very slick mkIII or your ASI is more than a little proud. ;-)
Almost forgot to add, that is without VGs.
My mkIII is very draggy in several areas:
1 - At the rear of the entrance doors in the area of the rear quarter windows.
2 - At the intersection of the windshield and the bottom of the wing.
Not to mention the 800X6 tires, radiators, 8" pneumatic tailwheel, tail wires,
and engine.
john h
mkIII - Heading home after 650+ trail miles on the Honda Rincon in two weeks in
TN and KY. Time to get the MKIII out, dust it off, and see if I can still fly.
Kolb Homecoming is right around the corner, 3d weekend of Sep.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, |
Landing
---- ross richardson <smlplanet@msn.com> wrote:
I found some calm air and the GPS said I was doing 130mph. Normally I can tell
by the rpm but had 10-15mph wind and guest up to 30mph so the rpm didn't do
much good.
Ross R/Gang:
Correct me if I am wrong. I was under the impression there wasn't much correlation
between airspeed/engine rpm and ground speed. Ground speed is determined
by airspeed, wind direction and speed, and direction of flight.
However, to get 130 mph ground speed in a MKIII, you'd have to have a 35 mph tail
wind. 95 mph WOT straight and level airspeed in a MKIII is about max, no matter
what engine you have pushing it.
Maybe you can share your secret for 130 mph cruise with the rest of us slow poke
MKIII flyers? ;-)
john h
mkIII
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin |
John Hauck wrote:
> ----
>
> Maybe you can share your secret for 130 mph cruise with the rest of us slow poke
MKIII flyers? ;-)
>
> john h
> mkIII
Maybe he put VG's on the prop [Wink]
I would have guessed tailwind also, but flying with that much wind would just scare
me. That does bring up a question though, what is the maximum wind you
have ever landed in John ? I have seen you comment on high winds while flying
cross country, what is the maximum wind speed you would launch in for flying
over flat terrain ?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197401#197401
Message 11
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Boyd, raising the leading edge tube and retaining the same diameter
tube would reduce lift and
increase cruise.
Increasing the radius of the leading edge and maintaining a flat
bottom (have to raise it a mite to do this)
would help cruise with less loss of lift. The air would be able to
find its path easier according to angle of attack.
I have thought about attaching a temporary cuff on mine to test the
change in flight characteristics.
Life is too short and projects too many.
BB
On 8, Aug 2008, at 2:58 PM, boyd wrote:
> I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old
> planes but with the lower drag of the xtra,
> a wing drag reduction should be in the works.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
> I guess I had always thought that if I were to build another set of
> wings I would do some research in raising the leading edge tube an
> inch to an inch and half. By doing this I would think that you
> could decrease the wing incidence in flight with near the same
> lift. Making it a bit faster,,, moving the leading edge up
> would give it a profile more like the super cub. Anyone smarter
> than I know what effect it would have?
>
> Boyd Young
> Kolb MkIII C 535+ hours and counting
> Brigham City Utah.
>
>
Message 12
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I went through some of the archives but didn't find anything pertinent.
My neighbor has a VERY low time flightstar that he assembled. It ran
fine initially
but now is experiencing too much rpm reduction at idle, to the point
of quitting.
It is a dual carb 503. He hasn't made any changes since start except
recently rechecking
the recommended screw settings.
Any insight would be appreciated. I have never held a bing in my hands.
BB
Message 13
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I took a beautiful morning flight today. The air was milky smooth. I
flew a little less than an hour.
So my logbook says I took off at 08:08, on 08-08-08, and flew 0.8 hrs.
The effort was worth the logbook entry.
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, 912ul in
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 14
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At 02:58 PM 8/8/2008, you wrote:
>I agree with Homer. The old airfoil is appropriate for the old
>planes but with the lower drag of the xtra,
>a wing drag reduction should be in the works.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
>I guess I had always thought that if I were to build another set of
>wings I would do some research in raising the leading edge tube an
>inch to an inch and half. By doing this I would think that you
>could decrease the wing incidence in flight with near the same
>lift. Making it a bit faster,,, moving the leading edge up would
>give it a profile more like the super cub. Anyone smarter than I
>know what effect it would have?
These ribs maybe more what he is talking about. Thinner & not flat bottomed.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Can you identify this fabric? |
Could someone please take a look at the attached image and tell me what weight
of Poly-Fiber fabric this is? Thanks!
-- Robert
--------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
MkIIIc/912ULS
Houston, TX
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197441#197441
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fabric_mark_914.jpg
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Can you identify this fabric? |
> Could someone please take a look at the attached image and tell me what
weight of Poly-Fiber fabric this is? Thanks!
>
> -- Robert
Robert L:
D-104 is 1.6 oz. It is stamped on the fabric in your photo. That is what
we covered the wings and tail with some years ago.
I used D-103, 3.6? oz for the fuselage of my FS, 1986.
john h
mkIII
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin |
> That does bring up a question though, what is the maximum wind you have
ever landed in John ? I have seen you comment on high winds while flying
cross country, what is the maximum wind speed you would launch in for flying
over flat terrain ?
>
> Mike
Mike B:
I don't know.
Would depend on where I was flying to and where the wind was coming from.
If it was a tailwind I might be tempted to push a little. Urgency of my
flight would have a lot to do with a decision to fly in highwinds.
Last May, John W and I were grounded for three days at Ontario, OR, with 35
to 55 mph winds. Most of that three days the wind was steady at 43 mph.
There is a great deal of difference getting caught in high winds while
aloft, and making a decision to take off into high winds.
Usually, when the wind is high, the terrain will also be lumpy. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Can you identify this fabric? |
Thanks, John. If I were to patch my wing (upper surface) should I use the
same 1.6 oz fabric, or go up to the medium?
-- Robert
On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 7:33 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> > Could someone please take a look at the attached image and tell me what
> weight of Poly-Fiber fabric this is? Thanks!
>
>>
>> -- Robert
>>
>
> Robert L:
>
> D-104 is 1.6 oz. It is stamped on the fabric in your photo. That is what
> we covered the wings and tail with some years ago.
>
> I used D-103, 3.6? oz for the fuselage of my FS, 1986.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Can you identify this fabric? |
Robert L:
Probably would not matter much.
The weave of 1.6 is much finer than the heavier fabric. Correct me if I am
wrong, but that would be the biggest difference when doped and painted.
How big is the hole? If small, I'd stick a "sticker" on it. My mkIII is h
eld together with stickers.
john h
mkIII
Thanks, John. If I were to patch my wing (upper surface) should I use th
e same 1.6 oz fabric, or go up to the medium?
-- Robert
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landin |
That does bring up a question though, what is the maximum wind you have
ever landed in
took off from monument valley with around 10 mile wind... landed in Cedar
City Ut. With 25 gusting to 35... left Cedar the following morning with 15
gusting to 20. made the 260 miles to home in just over 2 hours, the gps
showed the max ground speed at 138, asi showed 70. I have landed in cross
winds strong enough that I could not keep straight with the runway, so I
approached the runway at a 40 Deg angle and landed at an angle. Landed on
the edge of the runway and stopped by time I hit the center line.
Those were not my best moment... but it shows what the plane will do.
Boyd
Message 21
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These ribs maybe more what he is talking about. Thinner & not flat bottomed.
Possums
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
That was the nose profile I was thinking about.. But the convex bottom was
not in my mental snapshot.
What are you building that set of wings for?
Boyd Young
Kolb MKIIIC
Brigham City Ut.
Message 22
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HI SLYCK,
I would start by checking the carbs bowls for dirt and gloop. Make sure everything
is clean and fresh fuel is being used. Check the keepers on the jet needles
to make sure they are matched and in the same groove position.
If that is okay then check for synchonization of the carbs. Basically make sure
they are both opening and closing at the same time and at the same amount.
You will have to remove the airfilter to do this.
There are two needle adjustments on the Bings. The large needle sets the idle speed
stop or the position of the slide valve. You can use a drill bit as a gauge
to do the initial setting of both carb idle stops. You want the stops at the
carb to be the ones that control the idle speed and not the throttle cable
or throttle stops at the throttle lever.
Once you are sure the carbs are opening and closing equally and at the same time,
reinstall the airfilter.
There is another smaller needle screw that set the idle mixture of the carb. I
start by lightly seating the needle screw then backing it out one full turn.
Do this for both carbs. This will get you "In the ball park" to start the engine.
Once you have the engine running you can make further adjustments to suite the
situation.
If the idle speed is too high, stop the engine and back both idle speed screws
off about 1/8th turn. Check idle speed again. You want to have the idle speed
set at about 1600 rpm. This may seem low but then you have a little wriggle
room with the throttle handle to set the desired rpm up a bit so that the gear
box doesn't rattle at idle.
To adjust the mixture I start the engine and listen and watch it carefully.
Listen to the rpm and watch the exhaust. If it is too rich, the engine will gradually
slow and blubber and the exhaust will be come excessively smokey. The
EGT's may not even show on the gauge. If so, stop the engine, then just screw
in the idle mixture screw of both carbs a 1/8th of a turn. Start and check again.
If the engine is to lean. the engine will start and speed up slightly for a moment
or two then slow down. There will be very little smoke in the exhaust. The
EGT's may show a rise and then a decline in temps. If so stop the engine and
open the idle mixture screws a 1/8th turn and start again.
What you want is a steady rpm at idle and a clean acceleration of the engine from
idle to higher power settings. You'll end up with a slightly rich idle since
there is no accelerator pump in the carb. The engine will idle for extended
period of time but will eventually load up with fuel. It may sputter a bit from
prolong idleling as the engine is accelerated to higher power settings.
If the engine is lean, it will die from idle to a higher power setting because
it needs that extra bit of fuel to help it accelerate (Remember, no accelerator
pump in carb).
If you can get your hands on a carb vacuum gage, this will help balance the carbs
even better because you are setting by airflow rather than just mechanical
adjustments. But, if not these adjustments will be pretty darn close if you take
your time.
If all else fails, find a friendly motorcycle or a snowmobile mechanic as they
should have a good idea as to how to make any needed adjustments to a multiple
carburetor 2 cycle engine.
Just my .02$
Carlos G
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197481#197481
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