---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/05/08: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:57 AM - Re: Kolb Firestat II and Sport Pilot (grantr) 2. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Cross Country Dreams (pj.ladd) 3. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: HKS Fuel system (Richard Girard) 4. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Cross Country Dreams (Dana Hague) 5. 11:19 AM - Re: HKS Fuel system (JetPilot) 6. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: HKS Fuel system (boyd) 7. 02:08 PM - Kolb Falconer - Not Kolb Related (Michael Sharp) 8. 02:37 PM - Re: HKS Fuel system (Mnflyer) 9. 03:05 PM - Re: Re: Cross Country Dreams (robert bean) 10. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: HKS Fuel system (Richard Girard) 11. 09:38 PM - Re: HKS Fuel system (JetPilot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:45 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestat II and Sport Pilot From: "grantr" If he has a tail-wheel endorsement in say a J3,That he could fly the Kolb? Does this also mean that he could also fly a Preceptor Pup for example, with out further endorsement's? Sorry for my ignorance, I'm just happily building my airplane myself ( CH 701), I still have not crossed any of these bridges myself yet. The fly off hours are not an issue as his buddy flys for North West. If you did the training in a tail wheel airplane with a speed less than 87kts you will be rated to fly a tail wheel set AP-2 which is less than 87 kts. So that means you can fly any light sport tail wheel airplane that flys less than 87 kts. Too fly a plane faster than 87 kts you will have to get an endorsement. If you are rated for AP-2, You will also have to get an endorsment to fly a tri gear plane AP-1. This should be changed. If you can fly a tail wheel airplane you should be able to fly a tri gear. The firestar will fall under the 87kt speed. My MKIII does. These rules apply to sport pilots. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2734#202734 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:02 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cross Country Dreams Well, you require some sort of pilot certificate for anything that's not foot launched now, don't you? >> Hi Dana Yes. Quite right. Its not really too onerous. Not quite up to the standard of the normal PPL but it gives you the basics of Nav, Met, Air law and normal flyskills. Nothing fancy. Your plane too will be up to standard, still pretty minimal but the design must be approved and any major departures from the approved design have to be OK`d. There has recently been the introduction of a `sub 115 Kg` category which is pretty mush like your ultralight cat. The Firefly qualifies and there are a number of new designs in the wings. (No pun intended) Most pilots are responsible, but there are always a few jerks who think they don't to know anything about procedures, airspace, and the like. All it takes is one of them to give an airport manager a bad taste for ultralights.>> Yeah! Every country has them. Part of the problem with airport managers I think was that the low speeds of the Ul`s messed up the circuits with other GA aircraft. Now pilots with low speed approaches tend to keep their circuit speeds well up and only slow up on finals. Apart from that so many of the planes which are in the microlight bracket are now indistinguishable from normal GA in both appearance and performance that things have ironed themselves out. Your wide open spaces enable you to ignore officialdom to a greater extent than we can.Once upon a time I was part owner of 1000acre Ranch about 60 miles outside Denver. If I had lived there permanently I think that I would have flown a UL with no licence without too many worries > Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:51 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Fuel system All, the HKS engine's ignition system is nearly identical to that of the Rotax 912 with the exception that the HKS has a CDI box between each ignition pickup on the stator and the coil. I'd guess this is because it needs the extra power to fire the plug given the higher compression of the HKS (11.3 to 1). The book says the CDI's will work down to 10 volts. If I were to lose the alternator I'd shut down everything but the mags and the boost pump, hit "nearest" on the GPS (now operating off its own internal batteries), relax and fly to my new destination. The 17AH battery will give at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain. Rick do not archive On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:10 PM, boyd wrote: > > > > This is good until the lighting coil in the engine quits, or a fuse > blows. > > This still puts all the eggs in one basket... After 545 hours I will > > still > > use the facet pump as a backup to the pump on the 912. > > > > Boyd > > > >Hi Boyd: > > >Correct me if I am wrong. The 912 series engine use an alternator for > >aircraft power, and two seperate generators for the two seperate ignition > systems. I think that is the way I remember being taught in Rotax 912 > >engine school. > > >Am I to understand the HKS uses one system to power accessories and dual > >ign? > > >john h > >mkIII > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > John... I think you are right... but for clarity I believe the lighting > and 2 cdi and also the tach coils are all on the same stator, they have > separate output wires that feed their intended destinations. And you could > have one coil go bad, say the left cdi... and the engine would still run on > the right cdi... but if the lighting coil goes out, you are finished with > charging the battery, and would be left with what power is in the battery. > I do not believe there is a redundant backup to the lighting coil. > > My point was not that he would loose the spark if the lighting coil went > out,,, only that if his only source of getting fuel to the engine was the > 2 > facet pumps.... and no engine driven pump. An electrical failure would > quickly become an engine failure due to fuel exhaustion. If the charging > circuit fails the battery should keep things going for a while,, > > but if a main buss fuse blows,,, > even with the lighting coil working,,, > no electricity to the pumps,,, > no gas to the engine,,, > no turning of the prop, > look for a place to set it down. > > If my only source of fuel pumping was 2 electric pumps,,, I would want 2 > batteries,, 2 fuses,, 2 switches,,, in order to have it redundant.. and > maybe Dave has that under control. If not I would rethink something. > > Or maybe I missed something in the translation and my thoughts are all wet. > I am a plumber you know. It could happen. I kind of got mostly wet this > afternoon,, but that is another story. > > Boyd Young > MkIII > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:35 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cross Country Dreams At 11:30 AM 9/5/2008, pj.ladd wrote: >...the low speeds of the Ul`s messed up the circuits with other GA >aircraft. Now pilots with low speed approaches tend to keep their circuit >speeds well up and only slow up on finals. >Apart from that so many of the planes which are in the microlight bracket >are now indistinguishable from normal GA in both appearance and >performance that things have ironed themselves out. That's different, too, since here the ultralight category doesn't include those newer, faster aircraft. The new LSA category was supposed to absorb all the fat ultralights and to an extent it has, but it's more a downward extension of the GA category... with ultralights still a noticeably different class, all the aluminum tube and sailcloth planes (with a few exceptions like the lighter Kolbs). >Your wide open spaces enable you to ignore officialdom... That's a sacred tradition! :) -Dana do not archive -- And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, for if you hit a man with a plowshare, he'll know he's been hit! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:05 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Fuel system From: "JetPilot" aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: > > > The 17AH battery will give at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain. > > A battery that big should give you several hours running time if the charging system fails... An ignition system and a facett fuel pump do not draw more than a few amps. You would probably run out of gas before your engine died due to the battery running down. For the ignition system on an HKS, you are best off to NEVER use a fuse on it, or relay, or anything of the sort. Why would you want a fuse or any device that could suddenly cut power to your ignition system in order to protect it ? It should be hard wired to its power source. You want power to get to the ignition system no matter what happens. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2785#202785 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:59 PM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Fuel system All, the HKS engine's ignition system is nearly identical to that of the Rotax 912 with the exception that the HKS has a CDI box between each ignition pickup on the stator and the coil. I'd guess this is because it needs the extra power to fire the plug given the higher compression of the HKS (11.3 to 1). The book says the CDI's will work down to 10 volts. If I were to lose the alternator I'd shut down everything but the mags and the boost pump, hit "nearest" on the GPS (now operating off its own internal batteries), relax and fly to my new destination. The 17AH battery will give at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain. Rick do not archive What would happen if there were an electrical short and the main fuse to the charging system blows, or it is not present and because of the short the battery is pulled to below 10 volts. Would the engine quit???? Do the cdi"s need power from the lighting circuit or are they independent??? This is totally unrelated to the original question I posed... which was if there were a loss of electrical power and the only fuel pumps were electric, if you don't fuse the pumps and one of them shorts out... the result would be a possible fire in the wiring, or it would continue to pull the battery level down at an accelerated rate. The question was posed on the premise that the only fuel pumps were 2 electrical facet pumps and no engine driven pumps. an electrical melt down would stop fuel flow. I had not considered cdi or the loss of sparks. Apparently that is now being discussed as well. I was riding with a friend in his family car when an unfused circuit shorted out ( the installation of an aftermarket stereo) .. Suddenly we were trying to dodge traffic, pull off the road, and try to put out the fire before we were involved in a crash or the entire car went up in flames. Fuses are installed for a couple reasons.. First it protects the device and secondly it protects the wiring. And if either catches on fire,, it will bring an end to the fun in a hurry. And in the event of an electric fuel pump. the fan quits in short order even if every other thing is ok. I like my eggs in 2 baskets,,, 1: an engine driven pump, and 2: an electric driven pump. Boyd Young MkIII ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:07 PM PST US From: Michael Sharp Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Falconer - Not Kolb Related ATTENTION!!!! ATTENTION!!!! NOT KOLB RELATED!!! Would the Falconer in our group please email me off list??? I believe Larry C???? Thanks And, Do Not Archive Mike ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:59 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Fuel system From: "Mnflyer" The reason for having fuses or a circuit breaker in the HKS CDI wiring system is thats the way the HKS installation manual says to do it. A 3 amp fuse or circuit breaker of each unit. As posted a fuse is a safety device and needed in any circuit. While anything can happen a total light coil / alternator failure is not common, I'm in my 60's and have ridden snowmobiles for 40+ years and have flown Rotax and HKS powered aircraft for 15+ yrs and have yet to experience a lighting coil or alternator failure, I have has snowmobile CDI failure (never has happened while running but on shut down would not fire when tring to start again) and I've had point ignition failure for that reason I do not like single ignition aircraft engines. -------- GB MNFlyer Flying a HKS Kitfox III Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2825#202825 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:31 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cross Country Dreams That is the goofy loophole built into the system. Some of the old type certificated manufacturers, given the marketing demands of the time were want to stick as high a gross on the thing as possible to attract buyers. -come many years later it has worked negatively on the prospects for these good old birds, putting too many of them just out of reach of LSA. One of the better eliminated (IMO) was the C-140. Now, preinformed, all a manufacturer has to do is stick a1320 label on it. The most extreme example to date is the Jabiru. That thing is actually a 4 passenger airplane with the back seat removed. -good plane too if you can afford one. BB On 5, Sep 2008, at 1:01 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 11:30 AM 9/5/2008, pj.ladd wrote: >> ...the low speeds of the Ul`s messed up the circuits with other GA >> aircraft. Now pilots with low speed approaches tend to keep their >> circuit speeds well up and only slow up on finals. >> Apart from that so many of the planes which are in the microlight >> bracket are now indistinguishable from normal GA in both >> appearance and performance that things have ironed themselves out. > > That's different, too, since here the ultralight category doesn't > include those newer, faster aircraft. The new LSA category was > supposed to absorb all the fat ultralights and to an extent it has, > but it's more a downward extension of the GA category... with > ultralights still a noticeably different class, all the aluminum > tube and sailcloth planes (with a few exceptions like the lighter > Kolbs). > >> Your wide open spaces enable you to ignore officialdom... > > That's a sacred tradition! :) > > -Dana > > do not archive > > -- > And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, for if you hit a > man with a plowshare, he'll know he's been hit! > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:20 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Fuel system Boyd, Well, it started out as an answer to the question posed by John. To answer yours, I'd suggest you join the Aeroelectric forum which is also here on the Matronic list. Get yourself a copy of Bob Nuckolls' book, learn about building a fault tolerant electrical system for your aircraft, and then use one of Bob's sample schematics as the basis for your system. Just the way I do it, you ideas may differ. Rick do not archive On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:59 PM, boyd wrote: > All, the HKS engine's ignition system is nearly identical to that of the > Rotax 912 with the exception that the HKS has a CDI box between each > ignition pickup on the stator and the coil. I'd guess this is because it > needs the extra power to fire the plug given the higher compression of th e > HKS (11.3 to 1). The book says the CDI's will work down to 10 volts. If I > were to lose the alternator I'd shut down everything but the mags and the > boost pump, hit "nearest" on the GPS (now operating off its own internal > batteries), relax and fly to my new destination. The 17AH battery will gi ve > at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain. > > Rick > do not archive > > > What would happen if there were an electrical short and the main fuse to > the charging system blows, or it is not present and because of the short > the battery is pulled to below 10 volts=85 Would the engine quit???? Do > the cdi"s need power from the lighting circuit or are they independent??? > > > This is totally unrelated to the original question I posed=85.. which wa s if > there were a loss of electrical power and the only fuel pumps were > electric, if you don't fuse the pumps and one of them shorts out=85. .. > the result would be a possible fire in the wiring, or it would continue t o > pull the battery level down at an accelerated rate=85 > > > The question was posed on the premise that the only fuel pumps were 2 > electrical facet pumps and no engine driven pumps=85 an electrical melt d own > would stop fuel flow. I had not considered cdi or the loss of sparks. > Apparently that is now being discussed as well. > > > I was riding with a friend in his family car when an unfused circuit > shorted out ( the installation of an aftermarket stereo) =85. Suddenl y we > were trying to dodge traffic, pull off the road, and try to put out the > fire before we were involved in a crash or the entire car went up in > flames. Fuses are installed for a couple reasons=85. First it protects the > device and secondly it protects the wiring. And if either catches on > fire,, it will bring an end to the fun in a hurry. And in the event of an > electric fuel pump=85 the fan quits in short order even if every other thing > is ok. > > > I like my eggs in 2 baskets,,, 1: an engine driven pump, and 2: an > electric driven pump. > > > Boyd Young > > MkIII > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:07 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Fuel system From: "JetPilot" If you have two Facet fuel pumps, you should fuse and power each one separately. That way the failure of one fuel pump will be a non issue, you probably wont even know about it until you test them. No one is telling you not to fuse the fuel pumps. I am not familiar with HKS ignition, but If both ignitions use the same electrical supply, you most definitely do not want to fuse it. Adding fuses also adds a bunch more electrical connections, and sometimes fuses just blow when they should not, it happens. I would much rather burn a module, or a wire on the engine than adding all the failure points of running the ignition power down to a fuse than back up to the engine. If your fuse blows, or a connections vibrates loose, and your engine quits suddenly at a very bad time, will you still be saying , at least had a fuse ? Power directly from the power output of the engine to the ignition. That way it is a very short and simple connection, and chances of a failure are about zero. Even if you do short the wire on the engine, its not going to burn anything or cause a fire with such a short run in a non critical area. Your experience from a car does not apply in any way in this case. The power from the battery should have a fuse, because the wire is running into the airframe and most definitely would be a hazard in a short. Bottom line, you have to educate yourself, and be knowledgeable enough to know what is a real risk and what is not. Just taking some experience from an automobile and trying to apply it to all aspects of wiring an airplane is not the right thing to do. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! 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