Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Re: resonance (icrashrc)
2. 02:59 AM - Re: resonance (Dave Bigelow)
3. 03:08 AM - resonance 912 (Ted Cowan)
4. 03:40 AM - Slingshot 582 cooling setup (Denny Rowe)
5. 07:01 AM - Re: resonance 912 (robert bean)
6. 07:49 AM - Re: C box bearings (herb)
7. 09:38 AM - Re: resonance 912 (Dana Hague)
8. 09:42 AM - Re: C box bearings (lucien)
9. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: C box bearings and seals (herb)
10. 04:36 PM - Re: Slingshot 582 cooling setup (Steven Green)
11. 06:02 PM - Wind ramage to trailer (gliderx5@comcast.net)
12. 06:17 PM - Re: C box bearings (R. Hankins)
13. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: C box bearings (herb)
14. 07:24 PM - Re: Slingshot 582 cooling setup (Denny Rowe)
15. 09:02 PM - Re: fuel line? (JetPilot)
16. 09:42 PM - Re: C box bearings (R. Hankins)
17. 11:12 PM - Re: fuel line? (JetPilot)
Message 1
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If anyone wants to use a set of mercury gauges to check their carb sync I'll be
happy to bring them along to the Homecoming. Please let me know off list @ icrashrc
at aol dot com.
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4338#204338
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Ted,
This is probably a longshot, but I had some noise issues somewhat like yours with
my Firestar. I thought it was related to the Rotax 503, but when I changed
to the HKS engine, I still had the noise. Turned out to be the cables at the
tail. The airflow of either the propwash (on the ground) or the airstream in
flight caused them to vibrate (strum). I tightened them some, and the strumming
went away.
Hope this is the problem, since the solution is simple and cheap.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4345#204345
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Okay, the easy answer first. Yes, first time out the gate, at Miss Lite, a
year ago October, I suspected that was it. Was told by Ronny Smith that it
was not the carbs, it needed the expensive four inch spacer (which I had but
not installed). I installed it. Same-O. Later, purchased vacuum gauges
and went after the carbs. Set them and checked them -- four times in so
many months. No joy. Took off the four inch spacer and bought another two
inch spacer (needed different bolts of course) still no joy. balanced
better for flying though and left it on. Thought maybe it was noise from
the prop hub and bought another expensive play pretty spinner. Looks good.
No workie.
Now, it makes the noise on run up from about 3500 on, on the ground!!!!
Makes no difference how fast I am flying, it is there. I have it on decent
for landing, feathered back, just not as loud, same beat though. Taking
off, full throttle, I dont notice it cause of all the extra noise but as
soon as I pull back -- it says "I'm baaaack!".
On to the fabric. Although it maybe coming from there, why would it not
change in beat? I have taped up the wing area approximately where it should
be on both wings, no change in sound. I padded the back, sides, top inside
and around, no change, just maybe not as loud to me in the cabin. It is not
a thumping sound. It is a metallic sound to me as gears meshing or washers
running. I am so convinced it is in the gear box, I will PAY someone to
check it (must be a qualified rotax mech) and then if it is in there, I can
get it on warrantee. Just wait and hear it yourself next week. Going to be
an expensive run from here to there but I just hope I will be able to get
gas along the way. See ya there. Ted Cowan, Alabama, Slingshot 912UL
Message 4
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| Subject: | Slingshot 582 cooling setup |
Kolbers,
My friend Dave Lewis is trying to figure out how to route the lower hose
that joins his dual, rear mounted rads on the 582 Slingshot he bought.
The airframe and engine mounts make quite a maze, complete with sharp
edges. Also the lower hose nipples on the rads face forward pointing the
wrong way for easy hose routing.
Any pics you have would be helpful.
He is getting close to first start up since he bought it and this is the
last problem that needs resolved.
Thanks,
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, PA
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: resonance 912 |
Ted, this is a long shot, but are your cylinder compressions equal?
BB
On 15, Sep 2008, at 6:07 AM, Ted Cowan wrote:
>
> Okay, the easy answer first. Yes, first time out the gate, at Miss
> Lite, a year ago October, I suspected that was it. Was told by
> Ronny Smith that it was not the carbs, it needed the expensive four
> inch spacer (which I had but not installed). I installed it. Same-
> O. Later, purchased vacuum gauges and went after the carbs. Set
> them and checked them -- four times in so many months. No joy.
> Took off the four inch spacer and bought another two inch spacer
> (needed different bolts of course) still no joy. balanced better
> for flying though and left it on. Thought maybe it was noise from
> the prop hub and bought another expensive play pretty spinner.
> Looks good. No workie.
> Now, it makes the noise on run up from about 3500 on, on the
> ground!!!! Makes no difference how fast I am flying, it is there.
> I have it on decent for landing, feathered back, just not as loud,
> same beat though. Taking off, full throttle, I dont notice it
> cause of all the extra noise but as soon as I pull back -- it says
> "I'm baaaack!".
> On to the fabric. Although it maybe coming from there, why would
> it not change in beat? I have taped up the wing area approximately
> where it should be on both wings, no change in sound. I padded the
> back, sides, top inside and around, no change, just maybe not as
> loud to me in the cabin. It is not a thumping sound. It is a
> metallic sound to me as gears meshing or washers running. I am so
> convinced it is in the gear box, I will PAY someone to check it
> (must be a qualified rotax mech) and then if it is in there, I can
> get it on warrantee. Just wait and hear it yourself next week.
> Going to be an expensive run from here to there but I just hope I
> will be able to get gas along the way. See ya there. Ted Cowan,
> Alabama, Slingshot 912UL
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: C box bearings |
Looking at the cps catalog...I see that the bearings for the c and e
gear boxes are the same 932-420 #23 is a 6205 C3 , 932-820 #14
is a 6305 C3, 932-570 is a 6306 C3.. C3 means deep groove near as I
can tell.. All seals seem to be standard...off the shelf
parts.. same for bearings.. The difference being that they are
about one fourth to one third as expensive as CPS prices...
That said...ran into a wall...with the roller bearing that
supports the back of the propeller shaft.. #11... $101 at
CPS.. I can measure it and come up with a fit..but would be nice
to have the generic number if someone on the list has it at hand...
The oil seals run from 20 to 70 bucks...at CPS.. usually cost 3
or 4 bucks each at a bearing house... Herb
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: resonance 912 |
One bit of useful data to solve the resonance problem is to know the
frequencies. When you hear a "beat frequency" resonance, like a twin
engine airplane with the engines out of synch, the beat frequency is equal
to the difference in the primary frequencies. For example, if one engine
is turning 3000 rpm and the other is at 3060 rpm, that's a 60 rpm
difference or 1 cycle per second, i.e. the beat frequency would have a 1
second period.
Timing the beat period and comparing it to the other various speeds (engine
rpm, exhaust pulse frequency, reduction ratio, etc.) may lead to a match
which points to the source.
-Dana
--
He's dead, Jim. Grab his tricorder and his wallet.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: C box bearings |
herbgh(at)nctc.com wrote:
> Looking at the cps catalog...I see that the bearings for the c and e
> gear boxes are the same 932-420 #23 is a 6205 C3 , 932-820 #14
> is a 6305 C3, 932-570 is a 6306 C3.. C3 means deep groove near as I
> can tell.. All seals seem to be standard...off the shelf
> parts.. same for bearings.. The difference being that they are
> about one fourth to one third as expensive as CPS prices...
>
> That said...ran into a wall...with the roller bearing that
> supports the back of the propeller shaft.. #11... $101 at
> CPS.. I can measure it and come up with a fit..but would be nice
> to have the generic number if someone on the list has it at hand...
>
> The oil seals run from 20 to 70 bucks...at CPS.. usually cost 3
> or 4 bucks each at a bearing house... Herb
If they're like the crank seals on the 2-strokes, the Rotax parts are not the same
as the aftermarket ones (the rotax parts have a Viton coating on the inner
lip).
I still have my old C box off the original motor that was on my FS II. I remember
talking about it with the builder - it had had an aftermarket seal put in it
but it continued to leak. Replacement with a rotax seal fixed the problem.
So I suspect the Rotax part is probably required.
Try lockwood aviation or Ronnie Smith - they may have a lower price...
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4394#204394
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| Subject: | Re: C box bearings and seals |
LS
Thanks...Searching the web...I find that there are all kinds of
seals available.. Viton included... Double lip also...
I feel certain that there is no rocket science in this box...
neither special seals or bearings .. special parts otherwise...naturally..
Ronnie is one of the good guys...likely will have cross
references to generic parts...
Was your lower drive shaft seal leaking? Herb
At 11:42 AM 9/15/2008, you wrote:
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Slingshot 582 cooling setup |
Denny,
Is This what you want?
Steven
----- Original Message -----
From: Denny Rowe
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 6:39 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Slingshot 582 cooling setup
Kolbers,
My friend Dave Lewis is trying to figure out how to route the lower
hose that joins his dual, rear mounted rads on the 582 Slingshot he
bought.
The airframe and engine mounts make quite a maze, complete with sharp
edges. Also the lower hose nipples on the rads face forward pointing the
wrong way for easy hose routing.
Any pics you have would be helpful.
He is getting close to first start up since he bought it and this is
the last problem that needs resolved.
Thanks,
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, PA
Message 11
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| Subject: | Wind ramage to trailer |
Well, it got a little windy in PA last night, and my trailer took a beating. The
tarp disintegrated and the steel brackets that hold the tongue jack tore and
the jack folded. The MKII appears to be just fine however. I went out tonight
and quickly recovered the trailer with a new tarp to protect the Kolb. I
will work on a better fix later. Still having a lot of fun with the MKII.
Malcolm Morrison
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: C box bearings |
Herb,
I've been working with bearings on a daily basis for the last ten years or so.
Thought you might want to know that C3 is a reference to bearing internal clearance,
not the type of bearing. C3 bearings are called for where you have a
condition that can reduce the internal clearance of the bearing (such as high
temperature, the outer race pressed into a bore, and/or the inner race being press
fit over a shaft).
Bearing catalogs will tell you that C3 bearings have extra clearance compared to
"normal" bearings, but C3 is the default today. If there is nothing listed
after the bearing number, it is a safe bet that it is a C3 (usually with two rubber
seals). I have had difficulty finding replacement C2 (low clearance) and
"normal" bearings for applications where they are required.
Here is good link to the basics:
http://www.bearing-king.co.uk/how-to-measure-a-bearing.php
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4482#204482
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: C box bearings |
Thanks Roger
The CPS catalog simply indicates a generic number...ie: 6205 with
the suffix C3.. I have seen that referred to as deep groove. Mean
anything more?
And how about seals...any preference towards lip compound? Viton? Herb
At 08:17 PM 9/15/2008, you wrote:
>
>Herb,
>
>I've been working with bearings on a daily basis for the last ten
>years or so. Thought you might want to know that C3 is a reference
>to bearing internal clearance, not the type of bearing. C3 bearings
>are called for where you have a condition that can reduce the
>internal clearance of the bearing (such as high temperature, the
>outer race pressed into a bore, and/or the inner race being press
>fit over a shaft).
>
>Bearing catalogs will tell you that C3 bearings have extra clearance
>compared to "normal" bearings, but C3 is the default today. If
>there is nothing listed after the bearing number, it is a safe bet
>that it is a C3 (usually with two rubber seals). I have had
>difficulty finding replacement C2 (low clearance) and "normal"
>bearings for applications where they are required.
>
>Here is good link to the basics:
>http://www.bearing-king.co.uk/how-to-measure-a-bearing.php
>
>--------
>Roger in Oregon
>1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4482#204482
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Slingshot 582 cooling setup |
Steve,
That is the kind of info we need, we have been looking at maybe lifting
the engine and running the hose underneath, but I'll foreward your pic
to dave and see what he thinks.
Thanks
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Green
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Slingshot 582 cooling setup
Denny,
Is This what you want?
Steven
----- Original Message -----
From: Denny Rowe
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 6:39 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Slingshot 582 cooling setup
Kolbers,
My friend Dave Lewis is trying to figure out how to route the lower
hose that joins his dual, rear mounted rads on the 582 Slingshot he
bought.
The airframe and engine mounts make quite a maze, complete with
sharp edges. Also the lower hose nipples on the rads face forward
pointing the wrong way for easy hose routing.
Any pics you have would be helpful.
He is getting close to first start up since he bought it and this is
the last problem that needs resolved.
Thanks,
Dennis Rowe, Mk-3, PA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
9/13/2008 12:50 PM
Message 15
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Dana wrote:
>
> I don't want to look at the little bubbles... I want to look and verify that
there AREN'T any little bubbles!
>
>
If your fuel system were properly designed, you would not have the need to look
for little bubbles in the fuel line. There are thousands upon thousands of
general aviation airplanes, both low wing, and high wing, and NONE of them had
a place to look for bubbles in the fuel line. With a pressure fed fuel system,
there are no problems with pinhole leaks resulting in engine failures. There
is also no need for primer bulbs that fail, causing air, or blockages in the
fuel line. A 40 dollar Facet pump solves all these problems and more. If
you start to get vapor lock in flight, the ability to see those gas bubbles are
forming in the fuel line is not going to make your engine run.
I have to agree with you on one thing, if you are making the mistake of using a
pump to suck fuel up from a tank, then you probably have a need to look for bubbles
in the fuel line. I would much rather have a properly designed fuel system
that is reliable rather than have such a poorly designed, substandard fuel
system that I had to constantly inspect the lines and watch for bubbles.
As far as the Rotax 912-S, Rotax has now changed the engine to include aviation
fuel line covered by firesleeve from the fuel pump to the carburetors as standard
equipment. You can not inspect this fuel line before each flight, you cant
even see see the fuel line under the firesleeve, but with quality materials
there is no need to. Someone at Rotax that has a lot more experience and knowlege
than most here knew that it was worth the extra money to keep people from
using substandard clear fuel line on the engine itself.
I made the same mistake as many guys here and used the clear fuel line and two
fuel pumps to suck fuel up from the tanks to the engine in my Kolb. When I saw
all the bubbles forming in the line after the filter, it became obvious to me
that this was hazardous and could cause an engine failure one day. The difference
between me and many here is that I researched fuel system design, materials,
and corrected my mistakes. Many here seem unable to admit to themselves
that what they have been doing is wrong.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4509#204509
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: C box bearings |
Herb:
> I have seen that referred to as deep groove. Mean
> anything more?
Deep groove ball bearings are radial ball bearings designed to take axial loads
from both directions (tension and compression of the shaft, if you will). It
is the standard sort of bearing you think of if someone says "ball bearing"
All of the bearing numbers you listed above would be considered deep groove ball
bearings. If you go with after market, stick with major brands such as SKF,
FAG, NTN, INA, etc. and be sure to read the bearing itself to see where it was
made. Location can vary widely even within the same brand. Of course stay
away from China, Malaysia, India, etc. I have had good luck with USA, Japan,
France, Austria, Germany, and the Czech Republic.
The hidden cost in the original bearings might be tolerance class. The Austrians
do not compromise quality when it comes to bearings. The engineers at Rotax
have surely done their research and specified bearings with certain minimum
and maximum clearances suitable to the temperatures, loads and mounting fits of
the gearbox. Not all bearings with the same number and clearance rating are
created equal. The smaller the tolerance range, the more expensive the bearing.
There is really no way of knowing if your after-market bearing fits their
spec (unless you can get some inside info on the spec). Your chances go way up
if you buy the exact same brand, number, and clearance, made in the same country.
In short I would think that with all of the time and effort expended to rebuild
a gearbox, saving even a couple hundred bucks on bearings may not be cheap in
the long run. If your gearbox fails and puts you down in a rough field or the
trees, it will not seem like a good deal. On the other hand, it is entirely
possible that the $12 bearings you purchase at the local bearing store will perform
well. You do increase your chances (and the cost of course) vastly by
buying from the gearbox manufacturer.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4512#204512
Message 17
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Here are some pictures of my first fuel system. The last picture shows lots of
bubbles that form in the gasoline after the fuel filter due to fuel being pulled
through it rather than pushed. There was no leak, changing the fuel filter
did not reduce the amount of bubbles flowing out of the filter. At what point
are there enough bubbles that the engine would quit ??? I do not know... I
do know that the amount of bubbles forming in the gas could greatly increase
with altitude and temperature.
The second picture shows more of my first fuel system, with the fuel line and the
Facet pump sucking the fuel up on top of the cage, not good system design.
This is vapor lock waiting to happen, or an engine out due to air entering through
a pinhole leak causing the fuel pumps to lose their prime.
The first picture shows my first fuel system with the clear line running up to
the engine, and out to the carburetors. This type of fuel line melts very easily,
and is also very thin and easily cut. This is a fire, or at least an engine
failure waiting to happen. Rotax came up with a fix for their 912 engines,
I copied what Rotax did and put aviation fuel line with firesleeve on my engine.
Like John H. says, we are all free to chose what we do with our airplanes, and
I agree. For those that like clear fuel line and always will, that is your choice,
just be careful and keep inspecting it as often as possible... These posts
and pictures are for those that want good information on fuel systems and
their design. There is much more information about fuel systems than I know,
or I could possibly present here, but hopefully this will start some people
thinking. I would encourage everyone wondering about this subject to research
recommended aviation fuel system design and materials to make Kolb as safe and
reliable as possible. The EAA has a lot of excellent articles and suggestions
on this subject.
Fly Safe,
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4522#204522
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