---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/14/08: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - Re: Letter of Deviation Authority (Thom Riddle) 2. 05:36 AM - Re: Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Video (Thomas R. Riddle) 3. 05:42 AM - Re: CT MKIII crash (grantr) 4. 05:59 AM - Re: Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Video (russ kinne) 5. 06:48 AM - Re: Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Video (George Alexander) 6. 10:42 AM - Re: CT MKIII crash (olendorf) 7. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash (Jack B. Hart) 8. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash (Dana Hague) 9. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 10. 12:27 PM - Re: CT MKIII crash (grantr) 11. 12:35 PM - Re: CT MKIII crash (JetPilot) 12. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash () 13. 12:49 PM - Re: Letter of Deviation Authority (Thom Riddle) 14. 01:02 PM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 15. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash (Dana Hague) 16. 01:47 PM - Re: CT MKIII crash (JetPilot) 17. 02:17 PM - Re: CT MKIII crash (olendorf) 18. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash (Larry Cottrell) 19. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash (Dana Hague) 20. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: CT MKIII crash () 21. 08:34 PM - Re: CT MKIII crash (Richard Pike) 22. 08:39 PM - Re: Flying video (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:26 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Letter of Deviation Authority From: "Thom Riddle" Rick, Thanks for posting that. Of course, just because it comes straight from the FAA doesn't mean it is not erroneous, misleading, and just plain wrong :-). -------- Thom Riddle CFI-SP Power Plant Mechanic N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist. George Carlin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8689#208689 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:44 AM PST US From: "Thomas R. Riddle" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Video Rick, Your video link goes to the YouTube Index when I click it, instead of directly to the video you posted. What should we search on to find your video? BTW. I did some video with our Allegro a couple years ago by strapping the video camera to the wing strut with an inch or so of foam rubber between the camera and the strut. Worked great with no noticeable vibration in the resulting video. Thom in Buffalo ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:44 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash From: "grantr" http://www.greatplainsas.com/pg28f.html Great Plains Gascolator This Gascolator is a high quality, low cost fuel filter and water strainer. It should be installed at a low point in the fuel system, below the fuel tank to trap any water that may accumulate so it can be drained. The gascolator has a 10 micron fuel filterand an 1/8" pipe thread outlet for a quick fuel drain valve (not included). If you are using a fuel pump, the pump should be installed between the carb and the gascolator. Price . . . $29.95. Curtis Quick Drain Valve for use on Gascolator . . . $11.75. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8693#208693 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:30 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Video Richard the camera itself should be isolated from any hard part of the aircraft by at least an inch of foam-rubber or similar material. That should cure the problem. Probably plastic bubble-wrap would work well, too, and it's cheap and lightweight. You might have to rig a camera-support bracket or even tape the foam-wrapped camera to the tripod head. Would you consider a helmet with the camera munted on the side? Makes aiming lots easier, but you must remember not to swing your head around too much. BTW I found that a camera hard-mounted to Cessna struts had no vibration problems. Wind buffeting was the only thing to watch out for. And falling off the aircraft of course! Nice video! Russ On Oct 13, 2008, at 11:39 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > For the first time I tried to video my airplane. There is alot more > to it than I figured. I used the seat belt to lash a tripod with > the video camera on it in the passenger seat. The vibrations are > more amplified than than I notice in the cockpit. I wonder if there > are any utilities that can stabilize the video. > > The end of my runway is narrow so I go slowly through that section > and add power slowly till I get in the open. I climb at 3500 RPM > and power back to 3200 RPM for cruise. The video doesn't do justice > to how much I cut back power for cruise. > > Check out the video on Utube > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v-kMl_yvqo0 > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:05 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Video From: "George Alexander" NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > For the first time I tried to video my airplane. There is alot more to it than I figured. I used the seat belt to lash a tripod with the video camera on it in the passenger seat. The vibrations are more amplified than than I notice in the cockpit. I wonder if there are any utilities that can stabilize the video. > > The end of my runway is narrow so I go slowly through that section and add power slowly till I get in the open. I climb at 3500 RPM and power back to 3200 RPM for cruise. The video doesn't do justice to how much I cut back power for cruise. > > Check out the video on Utube > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v-kMl_yvqo0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v-kMl_yvqo0) > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > Rick: Video looks good. Probably wouldn't have noticed the vibration if you hadn't mentioned it. Won't make an IMAX production, but enjoyable, none-the-less. Don't know why Thom R. couldn't pick it up. (Thom... Rick used " redrive VW powered Kolb " as tags.) Will be nice to capture the fall colors "up there" to look at so when you get down here for the winter and all you have is green from the palm trees, blue green from the waters and light colored sand. :D -------- George Alexander FS II R503 N709FS http://gtalexander.home.att.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8704#208704 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash From: "olendorf" I know I'm going to get beat up for this one. Why do you have to put the gascolator at the lowest point in the system? I bought a gascolator with a plastic bowl designed for JetSkis and I was going to put it right behind my seat so I could actually see it and empty it from time to time. Putting it at the lowest point would probably mean that it would never get looked at regularly. Any water still has to pass through the gascolator no matter where it is. OK, shoot. Tell me how I'm wrong. -------- Scott Olendorf Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop Schenectady, NY http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8753#208753 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:01 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash At 10:42 AM 10/14/08 -0700, you wrote: > >I know I'm going to get beat up for this one. > >Why do you have to put the gascolator at the lowest point in the system? I bought a gascolator with a plastic bowl designed for JetSkis and I was going to put it right behind my seat so I could actually see it and empty it from time to time. Putting it at the lowest point would probably mean that it would never get looked at regularly. Any water still has to pass through the gascolator no matter where it is. > Scott, You may want to consider water freezing. It is best if it freezes in the colator rather that some place in the fuel line. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:55 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash At 01:42 PM 10/14/2008, olendorf wrote: >Why do you have to put the gascolator at the lowest point in the >system? I bought a gascolator with a plastic bowl designed for JetSkis >and I was going to put it right behind my seat so I could actually see it >and empty it from time to time. Putting it at the lowest point would >probably mean that it would never get looked at regularly. Any water >still has to pass through the gascolator no matter where it is. > >OK, shoot. Tell me how I'm wrong. Because, since water is heavier, it will naturally drain to the lowest point in the system, where it can be drained off via the gascolator. -Dana -- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 210lb. rapists. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:37 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash Scott Its aircraft standard practice to put it in the lowest point. I believe water in a system will separate and settle to the lowest point in a fuel system over time. When you sump the system with a quick drain you will get any water out of the system. This is your first warning that water is in your fuel and may need to be drained further. If you don't have your gascolator/quick drain at the low point you will not get any water out till after the water has been pumped to it. I also believe that some water might get through a gascolator if the fuel flow is high or the gascolator over fills with water. Don't worry so much about access to the gascolator but do make the quick drain accessible. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "olendorf" Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:42 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash > > I know I'm going to get beat up for this one. > > Why do you have to put the gascolator at the lowest point in the system? > I bought a gascolator with a plastic bowl designed for JetSkis and I was > going to put it right behind my seat so I could actually see it and empty > it from time to time. Putting it at the lowest point would probably mean > that it would never get looked at regularly. Any water still has to pass > through the gascolator no matter where it is. > > OK, shoot. Tell me how I'm wrong. > > -------- > Scott Olendorf > Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop > Schenectady, NY > http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8753#208753 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:32 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash From: "grantr" Now I am confused. On my plane the fuel pickups are on the bottom of the tanks and the fuel is pulled to the top of the tanks. There is no way to put the gascolator at the bottom of my fuel system unless I install fuel pickups in the bottom of my tanks. With my current setup would my plane even benefit from having one? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8777#208777 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash From: "JetPilot" Here is the gascolator I use. It is cheap, 70 bucks, works very well, has a built in screen and weighs maybe 8 ounces. It is light enough to use even on a Firefly. At a weight of 254 pounds, 8 ounces just isn't going to hurt anything even on a firefly. Dont forget to buy the extra gasket if you plan tu use auto gas, the included gasket is not compatible.... Even stock Mark III fuel tanks do not drain from the bottom, they are a similar setup to the fireflys tank, but you should still have a gascolator. Just because you draw gas from the top of your take through a tube is does not mean you do not need a gascolator. Any fuel system on an airplane should have one. Its not just for water, but any larger garbage will be blocked by the screen so that you can drain it out and see it. My guess is that the MK III in the accident had tanks that drew from the top like all stock Kolb MK III's do.... And yes even though he was drawing from the top he still really needed a gascolator. Its myths like this that get spread around by people that don't know any better are things that can get people hurt... John H. I will explain my statement about aircraft quality fuel parts a bit more, I do not mean certified aviation fuel parts, or even fuel components that have been especially built for aircraft. Many marine and auto lines and filters are of equal or better quality than some aircraft components. I mean to use top quality components that would be equal to or better aircraft grade - which I am sure you have in your MK III. What I would most definitely NOT USE is that cheap, easily cut, easily melted semi clear fuel line that goes bad quickly and that is found in so many ultralights. Just because this substandard fuel line has found its way into the ultralight culture does not mean that it is a good idea. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8780#208780 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:52 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash YES.....cheap insurance.....as they say shit happens and it is a long way down and time to think about what you could or should have done to prevent it. -------------------------------------------------- From: "grantr" Sent: 2008-10-14 15:27 Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash > > Now I am confused. > > On my plane the fuel pickups are on the bottom of the tanks and the fuel > is pulled to the top of the tanks. > > There is no way to put the gascolator at the bottom of my fuel system > unless I install fuel pickups in the bottom of my tanks. > > With my current setup would my plane even benefit from having one? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8777#208777 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Letter of Deviation Authority From: "Thom Riddle" For those interested in the LODA process, please note that the FAA News item referring to Notice 8900.15, apparently mis-identified the notice. It appears that the correct notice number is 8700.47 and can be found here: http://www.ihsaviation.com/faa/N8700-47.pdf According to this notice, the restrictions placed on the user of a LODA for using an experimental aircraft for training, if they can even get one, are significant. Additionally, IN MY OPINION, the application process is burdensome enough to dissuade mere mortals who are not masochistic. -------- Thom Riddle CFI-SP Power Plant Mechanic N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist. George Carlin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8785#208785 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:48 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash Mike You say stock tanks don't drain from the bottom. Are you sure? My stock Kolb 5 gallon tanks drain from the bottom. I added a finger strainer/shutoff valve to the stock setup when I installed my stock bottom drains to my stock tanks per Kolb instructions. Has this changed? I don't know for sure that a gascolator will work as designed with the top draw system but it seems it would help. I guess this is another argument for the standard practice of bottom drain fuel tanks. Has anyone that has had a bottom drain installed properly ever had a leak? I still don't fully understand why one would use the top draw system. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 3:35 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash > > Here is the gascolator I use. It is cheap, 70 bucks, works very well, has > a built in screen and weighs maybe 8 ounces. It is light enough to use > even on a Firefly. At a weight of 254 pounds, 8 ounces just isn't going > to hurt anything even on a firefly. Dont forget to buy the extra gasket > if you plan tu use auto gas, the included gasket is not compatible.... > > Even stock Mark III fuel tanks do not drain from the bottom, they are a > similar setup to the fireflys tank, but you should still have a > gascolator. Just because you draw gas from the top of your take through > a tube is does not mean you do not need a gascolator. Any fuel system on > an airplane should have one. Its not just for water, but any larger > garbage will be blocked by the screen so that you can drain it out and see > it. My guess is that the MK III in the accident had tanks that drew from > the top like all stock Kolb MK III's do.... And yes even though he was > drawing from the top he still really needed a gascolator. Its myths like > this that get spread around by people that don't know any better are > things that can get people hurt... > > John H. > > I will explain my statement about aircraft quality fuel parts a bit more, > I do not mean certified aviation fuel parts, or even fuel components that > have been especially built for aircraft. Many marine and auto lines and > filters are of equal or better quality than some aircraft components. I > mean to use top quality components that would be equal to or better > aircraft grade - which I am sure you have in your MK III. > > What I would most definitely NOT USE is that cheap, easily cut, easily > melted semi clear fuel line that goes bad quickly and that is found in so > many ultralights. Just because this substandard fuel line has found its > way into the ultralight culture does not mean that it is a good idea. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8780#208780 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:57 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash At 04:00 PM 10/14/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: >You say stock tanks don't drain from the bottom. Are you sure? My stock >Kolb 5 gallon tanks drain from the bottom. I added a finger >strainer/shutoff valve to the stock setup when I installed my stock bottom >drains to my stock tanks per Kolb instructions. Has this changed? > >I don't know for sure that a gascolator will work as designed with the top >draw system but it seems it would help. I guess this is another argument >for the standard practice of bottom drain fuel tanks. Has anyone that has >had a bottom drain installed properly ever had a leak? I still don't fully >understand why one would use the top draw system. The accident aircraft drew fuel through the top of the tanks and had no gascolator. With top draw, the gascolator will catch water as it flows through the gascolator (which is the most important thing) but it won't pick up water that settles in the bottom of the tank(s) while the aircraft is sitting. -Dana -- I don't trust a government I can't shoot back at. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:50 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash From: "JetPilot" Rick, The stock fuel system on my MK III takes fuel from the top of the tanks, through a tube. The gascolator will work fine with a top draw system, it would catch any water going through the fuel line. Most bottom draw systems are not perfect, meaning that the fuel is not EXACTLY drawn from the bottom of the tank, many times there is a ridge, etc. around the pickup. This would mean that water would sit in the tank and not get sucked out until flight, so the gascolator would most likely work exactly the same, be it top or bottom draw... I have to go with John H on this one, I like bottom draw better. It is one thing Kolb changed to with the new aluminum 18 gallon tank, this is a really nice and well made tank, I have one that I have just not put in yet :) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8796#208796 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:28 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash From: "olendorf" Good points. I do have a bottom draw tank with finger strainer. So I could put a gascolator at the low point. I'm not convinced that water in the tank would make it to the gascolator from just gravity. At least not with the 1/4" i.d. fuel line. It seems it would only work if there was fuel flowing, not at rest. I'm even less convinced this would work with just a piece of tubing going to a valve effectively trying to make the tubing become a water trap. I'll have to do a test for this. Standard practice is usually right though. P.S. I had the plastic tank with push in rubber bushing at the bottom of the tank for lots of years and it never leaked. -------- Scott Olendorf Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop Schenectady, NY http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8802#208802 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:12 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash Scott O: Don't know about you, but it works for me. Gravity pulls the water out of the line when it passes the "T" at the bottom of the loop as it goes under the tail boom. A single line from there to the lowest point of the belly, between the gear legs, collects water and other interesting stuff. Cost about 3.00 for the plastic fuel valve from the mower shop. I know it is not as effective as a real live gascolator, but it works for me, and that is what counts. As long as I don't get lazy and fail to do a good fuel sample each time I fly and when I refuel, I don't think I will ever have another fuel problem cause an engine out. Also have to be religious about checking the fuel filter and the carb float bowls. May not be a proven system or procedure, but it is proven to me. Take care, john h mkIII Rock House, Oregon (Got 5 nice rainbow trout out of the Owyhee River. Larry got 4, but I got the biggest one.) I'm even less convinced this would work with just a piece of tubing going to a valve effectively trying to make the tubing become a water trap. I'll have to do a test for this. Standard practice is usually right though. P.S. I had the plastic tank with push in rubber bushing at the bottom of the tank for lots of years and it never leaked. -------- Scott Olendorf ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:56 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash At 08:36 PM 10/14/2008, John Hauck wrote: > >Don't know about you, but it works for me. Gravity pulls the water out of >the line when it passes the "T" at the bottom of the loop as it goes under >the tail boom. A single line from there to the lowest point of the belly, >between the gear legs, collects water and other interesting stuff. John, how long a piece of line do you have between the tee and the valve? -Dana -- Fugitive from the law of averages! ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:32 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash > > John, how long a piece of line do you have between the tee and the valve? > > -Dana Dana: Probably 2 feet. Maybe 2.5 feet. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:20 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: CT MKIII crash From: "Richard Pike" It is not necessary to put your fuel pickup at the lowest point in the tank if you are willing to give up a pint or so of usable fuel. Make your pickup/finger strainer a couple inches above the lowest point of the tank, and the sump drain at the lowest point. Instant gascolator. If you drain the sumps just before you take off, and then top up the tank (if it is that critical) then you only have about a pint of unusable fuel. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8843#208843 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:03 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flying video From: "Richard Pike" Good on Ya, Girl! Da Old Poop! 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