---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/17/08: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:57 AM - Re: Redundant Fuel Pumps (pj.ladd) 2. 05:15 AM - Re: Re: Airport Attitudes (pj.ladd) 3. 06:40 AM - Re: Water in gas (olendorf) 4. 06:56 AM - Re: Redundant Fuel Pumps (TheWanderingWench) 5. 09:52 AM - Re: Redundant Fuel Pumps (pj.ladd) 6. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Water in gas (Dana Hague) 7. 11:08 AM - Re: Redundant Fuel Pumps (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 8. 03:06 PM - Re: Redundant Fuel Pumps (Dana Hague) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:11 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redundant Fuel Pumps Call me chicken.>> Hi Dennis, wouldn`t drean of it. Thats what I call `learning from experience` or `once bitten twice shy` or something like that. If I was flying a Cessna in the mountains I would have plenty of back ups I think to a great extent it is the sort of country we fly over. Some of the great country you guys have with miles of trees and lakes with nowhere to land or almost uninhabited areas really call for maximum safety, redundancy etc. We just don`t have them. There are parts of Wales or Scotland that I wouldn`t fly over without at least letting someone know where I was and when I was expected at my destination but in general over here you would be very unlucky to go down with no one seeing you. Usually there is somewhere to put a plane down even if it is too small to fly out again. Engine outs in a microlight are usually non events anyhow. Even if it does put the pilots adrenelin level up The amount of stored energy involved in such a lightweight machine is low and even if you hit a hedge there is a good chance you will walk away. Even if you had to walk out for help it is unlikely to be more than a couple of miles. I wasn`t really advocating a total disregard for safety and good maintenance. If you went down that route here you would get no further than your next C of A inspection because your inspector wouldn`t sign the plane out. Some pilots however, we all have them, just cannot resist putting on all the gadgets possible. I was talking to a microlight pilot the other day and he was discussing the relative merits of Artificial Horizons because he intended to fit one. Microlights here are only allowed to fly VFR so what did he need one for? He might suddenly be enveloped in cloud? Alright, it could happen but look at the probabilities. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:39 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Airport Attitudes Yes, the same... one of my favorite writers. >> Thanks Dana. I like his books. Having been a SF reader since 1947 I have been through all the changes of Astounding to Analog and all the changes of format. Not too many good writers in the field now Ian Banks would be one and Baxter, an English writer whom you may have come across. He did some astronaut training I believe and he writes science articles as well as SF. Very little `hard` sf, about now ,it seems to be mainly fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:59 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Water in gas From: "olendorf" I did a test. I took a 2 gallon gas can with a push in bushing connection at the bottom. Just like our tanks. I had a 1 foot piece of hose attached and the end was plugged. I added about a quart of gas to the can and made sure the fuel line was full of gas. Then I poured in 16oz of water to make sure it would cover the push in connector because it sticks up 1/4" from the bottom. When I poured in the water it actually turned into millions of tiny water droplets and looked gel-like. At that point a bunch of these tiny drops did get into the dangling fuel line. I let it set for a few hours and the water eventually combined. Even though the fuel connector was completely under water the amount of water in the line was about 1.5". I think most of this was from the initial tiny droplets. I'm still not sure the water would have made it into the hose if it was added slowing without creating the droplets. So although there was some water in the lowest point of the dangling fuel line I'm still not convinced. And if I drained some fuel out I would have gotten some water out but then I would have started getting gas again. At that point I still had 16oz of water left in the gas can. I guess the thing to do is if you find any water at all then you need to keep draining until you are sure you moved enough fuel to empty the lines completely. And no, I don't obsess over this. I haven't found any water in 10 years. Here is a similar kind of gascolator I was thinking of putting in. SeaDoo PWC Fuel Filter 275500088 MSRP: $21.75 Web Price: $17.35 see attached picture.... -------- Scott Olendorf Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop Schenectady, NY http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9165#209165 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/275500358_161.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:56 AM PST US From: TheWanderingWench Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redundant Fuel Pumps Pat - I couldn't agree with you more on both counts: 1) redundancy can be crucial if the terrain you're flying over is unforgiving, and 2) some pilots just want all the heavy metal stuff while I go "Huh?" But if they can afford it and enjoy it - well, that's fine. A friend of mine who flies a Thundergull put an automatic pilot in it. I don't get it, but he enjoys it. I learned to fly in a Quicksilver and my instructor was adamant that I not rely on instruments. All he had on the bird was an airspeed indicator. Personally, I feel I need my CHT and EGT, as well as my altimeter and RPM indicator. And I love my Stratomaster, which gives me fuel burn, although I could easily do without it.AND my redundant electric pump gives me great comfort. As they say "Different strokes for different folks!" Arty Trost Maxair Drifter Sandy, Oregon www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com "Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." --- On Fri, 10/17/08, pj.ladd wrote: > From: pj.ladd > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redundant Fuel Pumps > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 4:56 AM > > > Call me chicken.>> > > Hi Dennis, > > wouldn`t drean of it. Thats what I call `learning from > experience` or `once > bitten twice shy` or something like that. If I was flying a > Cessna in the > mountains I would have plenty of back ups > > I think to a great extent it is the sort of country we fly > over. Some of > the great country you guys have with miles of trees and > lakes with nowhere > to land or almost uninhabited areas really call for > maximum safety, > redundancy etc. We just don`t have them. There are parts of > Wales or > Scotland that I wouldn`t fly over without at least letting > someone know > where I was and when I was expected at my destination but > in general over > here you would be very unlucky to go down with no one > seeing you. Usually > there is somewhere to put a plane down even if it is too > small to fly out > again. Engine outs in a microlight are usually non events > anyhow. Even if it > does put the pilots adrenelin level up The amount of stored > energy involved > in such a lightweight machine is low and even if you hit a > hedge there is a > good chance you will walk away. Even if you had to walk out > for help it is > unlikely to be more than a couple of miles. > I wasn`t really advocating a total disregard for safety and > good > maintenance. If you went down that route here you would get > no further than > your next C of A inspection because your inspector wouldn`t > sign the plane > out. > Some pilots however, we all have them, just cannot resist > putting on all the > gadgets possible. I was talking to a microlight pilot the > other day and he > was discussing the relative merits of Artificial Horizons > because he > intended to fit one. Microlights here are only allowed to > fly VFR so what > did he need one for? He might suddenly be enveloped in > cloud? Alright, it > could happen but look at the probabilities. > > Cheers > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:14 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redundant Fuel Pumps I learned to fly in a Quicksilver and my instructor was adamant that I not rely on instruments. >> Hi Arty, I started in gliders and I remember that after 6 or 7 flights the instructor threw his gloves over the ASI and altimeter and said`"Look out of the cockpit and listen" For my microlight License I soloed in a Quicksilver. There was nothing even to keep lined up with the horizon. I think there was a telltale piece of string to show slip and skid and an ASI. Sure some people want all the goodies and are happier cutting holes and designing a new control panel than flying. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:09 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Water in gas At 09:40 AM 10/17/2008, olendorf wrote: >Here is a similar kind of gascolator I was thinking of putting in. >SeaDoo PWC Fuel Filter 275500088 >MSRP: $21.75 Web Price: $17.35 >see attached picture.... How big is that filter, and what hose size? -Dana -- Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:01 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redundant Fuel Pumps Arty/Pat My Private Pilot training wet 180 degrees the other way. I was trained to trust the instruments because your seat of the pants will mislead you. Kennedy's mishap is a good example. Part of my flight test for PP yes VFR was to prove that I could fly on instruments. They would have me close my eyes and try to get me disoriented and hand the controls back in a unusual attitude while wearing a instrument only hood. Pilot training and common aircraft building practices have come a long way by trial and error. The ultralight instructors that basically taught themselves to fly and some ultralight/experimental builders have short changed themselves by not learning from the mistakes of the past. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "pj.ladd" Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redundant Fuel Pumps > > I learned to fly in a Quicksilver and my instructor was adamant that I not > rely on instruments. >> > > Hi Arty, > I started in gliders and I remember that after 6 or 7 flights the > instructor threw his gloves over the ASI and altimeter and said`"Look out > of the cockpit and listen" > > For my microlight License I soloed in a Quicksilver. There was nothing > even to keep lined up with the horizon. I think there was a telltale piece > of string to show slip and skid and an ASI. > > Sure some people want all the goodies and are happier cutting holes and > designing a new control panel than flying. > > Cheers > > Pat > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:17 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Redundant Fuel Pumps At 02:07 PM 10/17/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: >My Private Pilot training wet 180 degrees the other way. I was trained to >trust the instruments because your seat of the pants will mislead you. >Kennedy's mishap is a good example. Part of my flight test for PP yes VFR >was to prove that I could fly on instruments. They would have me close my >eyes and try to get me disoriented and hand the controls back in a unusual >attitude while wearing a instrument only hood. Trust the instruments, yes, especially in IFR conditions... but your training should also have taught you to fly the airplane in VFR conditions WITHOUT needing the instruments. Instruments do fail. -Dana -- The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.