---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/16/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:46 AM - What's My Contribution Used For? (Matt Dralle) 1. 08:35 AM - Re: BFR (Ralph B) 2. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 3. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Jerry Jones) 4. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (herb) 5. 10:06 AM - Re: BFR (pj.ladd) 6. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? () 7. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? () 8. 10:16 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Jerry Jones) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:55 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: What's My Contribution Used For? Dear Listers, Some have asked, "What's my Contribution used for?" and that's a good question. Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables. It provides for the very expensive, commercial-grade T1 Internet connection used on the List insuring maximum performance and minimal contention when accessing List services. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades enabling the highest performance possible for services such as the Archive Search Engine, List Browser, and Forums. It pays for 19+ years worth of online archive data available for instant random search and access. 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Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:15 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: BFR From: "Ralph B" I took my Flight Review in my Kolbra with a CFI that knew very little about Light Experimentals. I spent a lot of time talking about the aircraft and Sport Pilot with him. He wanted a chance to fly it and it worked out well. We had a great day for it too. Ralph -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 21 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 0 years flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214541#214541 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:41 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Jerry/All A direct drive high RPM engine just can't produce the same thrust per HP as a reduction drive engine turning a big slow turning prop. I did a fairly close direct comparison between direct drive and reduction drive and the differences were drastically better with the reduction drive engine. The VW engine runs at a slightly higher RPM (3200 @ cruise and 3500 @ climb) than a Jabiru so the differences may not be as drastic but the differences are still significant. The primary consideration is that a big slow turning prop is more efficient in turning horse power into thrust than a small higher RPM prop. I have seen a 85 HP Jabiru powered Kolb MKIIIX fly and was impressed with it's performance but I would guess that this just adequate performance is due to a no compromise highly tuned prop. Most of us redrive powered Kolb flyers get sufficient performance that we tend to migrate more towards durability, smoothness, convenience than ultimate performance. I first flew my Kolb MKIIIC with a direct drive VW. The direct drive engine was 2180cc Great Plaines engine turning a 60 X 28 two bladed wood prop. I could only fly solo out of my strip and I would get a 65MKH cruise at close to 80% power. After a few years of flying this engine I switched to a almost identical reduction drive VW engine on the same plane. The reduction drive is a 1.6 to one drive turning a three bladed 72 inch PowerFin. I gained two passenger performance, cruise speed increased to 75MKH with 65-70% power, my oil/CHT temps lowered, my fuel consumption lowered, and all this running the same engine RPMs as my direct drive engine. Again my VW turns a bit more RPMs and my direct drive prop might not have been finely tuned as it could have been but the differences are still vast. There is at least one kit airplane the offers a 120HP Jabiru as a option rather than offering a reduction drive engine. The price of fuel will likely return to the $4/ gallon price so I feel it would be best to get the most performance we can out of the horse power we are feeding our airplanes rather than increasing the HP to get the needed thrust. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Jones To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the 912 is vastly superior...and that it provides much better performance. Jerry On Nov 15, 2008, at 11:34 AM, JetPilot wrote: Grant, The Rotax 912 is a vastly superior engine to the Jabiru in both performance and reliability. The 912 turns the prop slower than the Jabiru and results in much better performance on a Kolb. My numbers are very close to John and RLaird. Climb with a 912-S is about 1300 FPM at 5200 RPM, Stall at 30, and slow cruise at 70 MPH burning just over3 GPH at 4200 RPM. I don't do fast cruise, I have no numbers for that. The 912 is perfect for the airplane... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214379#214379 (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! List Contribution Web Site: --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kolb-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:53 AM PST US From: Jerry Jones Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Rick, I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4- cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. The arguments from both sides, I've found, change nobody's mind, typically generating more heat than light. That said, I had both a Jab 2200 and a 3300 on my Titan and found performance comparable to reported performance of comparable 912s (of course the 100 hp 912 had fewer horses than the 128 hp Jab), and had slightly less fuel burn. Every sport pilot here in Madera flies behind/in front of a Jab, with one also flying behind a 912S. I could be a little biased, I've owned five Jab engines, and if buying another engine, that's prolly what I'd buy again, for various reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to own a Rotax either. For sure, very early Jabs had teething problems and didn't produce near the power claimed, but that was long ago and far, far in the past. And, none of us have had to land out because of an engine problem. Now, back to my cellar.... Jerry On Nov 16, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > Jerry/All > > A direct drive high RPM engine just can't produce the same thrust > per HP as a reduction drive engine turning a big slow turning prop. > I did a fairly close direct comparison between direct drive and > reduction drive and the differences were drastically better with > the reduction drive engine. The VW engine runs at a slightly higher > RPM (3200 @ cruise and 3500 @ climb) than a Jabiru so the > differences may not be as drastic but the differences are still > significant. The primary consideration is that a big slow turning > prop is more efficient in turning horse power into thrust than a > small higher RPM prop. I have seen a 85 HP Jabiru powered Kolb > MKIIIX fly and was impressed with it's performance but I would > guess that this just adequate performance is due to a no compromise > highly tuned prop. Most of us redrive powered Kolb flyers get > sufficient performance that we tend to migrate more towards > durability, smoothness, convenience than ultimate performance. > > I first flew my Kolb MKIIIC with a direct drive VW. The direct > drive engine was 2180cc Great Plaines engine turning a 60 X 28 two > bladed wood prop. I could only fly solo out of my strip and I would > get a 65MKH cruise at close to 80% power. After a few years of > flying this engine I switched to a almost identical reduction drive > VW engine on the same plane. The reduction drive is a 1.6 to one > drive turning a three bladed 72 inch PowerFin. I gained two > passenger performance, cruise speed increased to 75MKH with 65-70% > power, my oil/CHT temps lowered, my fuel consumption lowered, and > all this running the same engine RPMs as my direct drive engine. > Again my VW turns a bit more RPMs and my direct drive prop might > not have been finely tuned as it could have been but the > differences are still vast. > > There is at least one kit airplane the offers a 120HP Jabiru as a > option rather than offering a reduction drive engine. The price of > fuel will likely return to the $4/ gallon price so I feel it would > be best to get the most performance we can out of the horse power > we are feeding our airplanes rather than increasing the HP to get > the needed thrust. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Jones > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:52 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or > jabiru? > > Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the 912 is > vastly superior...and that it provides much better performance. > > Jerry > > On Nov 15, 2008, at 11:34 AM, JetPilot wrote: > >> >> Grant, >> >> The Rotax 912 is a vastly superior engine to the Jabiru in both >> performance and reliability. The 912 turns the prop slower than >> the Jabiru and results in much better performance on a Kolb. My >> numbers are very close to John and RLaird. >> >> Climb with a 912-S is about 1300 FPM at 5200 RPM, Stall at 30, >> and slow cruise at 70 MPH burning just over3 GPH at 4200 RPM. I >> don't do fast cruise, I have no numbers for that. The 912 >> is perfect for the airplane... >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast >> as you could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214379#214379 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>(And Get Some >> AWESOME FREE Gifts!) >> November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on >> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>this year's >> Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! >> List Contribution Web Site: >> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http:// >> www.matronics.com/contribution >> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>Thank you for your >> generous support! >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> - The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> < Un List as such utilities many margin-top:the> >> <> >> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http:// >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> http://forums.matronics.com >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Dralle, List =========== >> Features Chat, FAQ, href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb- >> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List the Web >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:25 AM PST US From: herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Jerry Seems that the Titan cannot run a long enough prop to make the 912 a good alternative? Basically...Jabs do well on clean planes. titans,Sonex etc.....Redriven 912's are well suited to any plane where they can swing a long and more efficient prop.. Herb ps a Jab is absolutely unsuited to a Kolb MkIII or Cobra... At 11:45 AM 11/16/2008, you wrote: >Rick, > >I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax >4-cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. The arguments from >both sides, I've found, change nobody's mind, typically generating >more heat than light. That said, I had both a Jab 2200 and a 3300 >on my Titan and found performance comparable to reported performance >of comparable 912s (of course the 100 hp 912 had fewer horses than >the 128 hp Jab), and had slightly less fuel burn. Every sport pilot >here in Madera flies behind/in front of a Jab, with one also flying >behind a 912S. I could be a little biased, I've owned five Jab >engines, and if buying another engine, that's prolly what I'd buy >again, for various reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to own a Rotax >either. For sure, very early Jabs had teething problems and didn't >produce near the power claimed, but that was long ago and far, far >in the past. And, none of us have had to land out because of an >engine problem. > >Now, back to my cellar.... > >Jerry > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:09 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: BFR If that was the only plane there was to fly, I would walk. (Calm down Pat) Larry, I am calm. I am calm. Of course never having flown a Firefly I couldn`t possible comment. On the other hand..... Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:35 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? > Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the 912 is vastly superior...and that it provides much better performance. > > > Jerry Does Jerry have a Jab powered Kolb? I have a 912 powered Kolb and have had a chance to compare performance between John Williamson's Jab powered Kolbra and my mkIII. I said "a chance", but that translates into many hours and days flying long cross country flights together when John W had the Jab. To be quite honest, there was no comparison, except in cruise flight. Cruise flight was comparable. Takeoff and climb, the 912 powered mkIII ate the Jab powered Kolbra up. 2005, I met John W in Canon City, CO, enroute to our annual flying at Monument Valley. John had upgraded to a 912ULS. He led me out of Canon City and I had to keep asking him to slow down and wait for me. We were on our way to Leadville, CO. Really irritated me that John W's Kolbra outperformed my mkIII. I have known other direct drive Kolbs in the past. Performance sucked with Jab, Subaru, and VW. Haven't heard from our BMW powered Kolbs lately, but I don't think they will blow the doors off our 912 powered Kolbs either. Any time you all want to go wing to wing and see which system outperforms which, Hauck is more than ready. ;-) john h Mesquite, NV ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:38 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? ---- Jerry Jones wrote: > Rick, > > I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4- > cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. > > Jerry > Jerry: There is no comparison between a Titan and a Kolb. Direct drive may work on a Titan, but it does not work on Kolbs. Would have saved some typing had you said you were a Titan guy and not a Kolb guy. ;-) Take care, john h Mesquite, NV until tomorrow... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:55 PM PST US From: Jerry Jones Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? John, no disagreement with you here about the difference between a Kolb and a Titan. Was just responding to an imprecise, unqualified statement. Like I've said previously, wish I still owned by 503 DCDI Firestar, but it is no more. The new owner rolled it up in a ball when his tail caught the top wire of a barbed wire fence. That said, me thinks you too may be a bit imprecise when you say direct drive doesn't work on a Kolb. I've seen them work on even draggier pushers. How about won't work as well as geared engines? Okay. That's it. Now back to my hole until I see my shadow... Jerry On Nov 16, 2008, at 5:25 PM, wrote: > > > ---- Jerry Jones wrote: >> Rick, >> >> I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4- >> cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. > >> Jerry >> > > > Jerry: > > There is no comparison between a Titan and a Kolb. > > Direct drive may work on a Titan, but it does not work on Kolbs. > > Would have saved some typing had you said you were a Titan guy and > not a Kolb guy. ;-) > > Take care, > > john h > Mesquite, NV until tomorrow... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.