Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:55 AM - cold weather flight suit (Ted Cowan)
2. 06:57 AM - Re: A must see (Ed Chmielewski)
3. 07:01 AM - Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (JetPilot)
4. 07:42 AM - Re: A must see (chris davis)
5. 08:10 AM - Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (lucien)
6. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (James Clayton)
7. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Jack B. Hart)
8. 12:51 PM - Re: Brake lines (ThisOne)
9. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Brake lines (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
10. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (robert bean)
11. 07:02 PM - Fuel Boost Pump for MkIII/Rotax912 (mark rinehart)
12. 10:32 PM - Anyone with a jab on a mk3c/x?? (ces308)
Message 1
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Subject: | cold weather flight suit |
Wanted to give the List the first crack at a very good deal. I have an Army
Chopper Cold weather suit I got a few years ago when I was flying open rag
wings. It kept me nice and comfy no matter the temp. It is a military type
jump suit with lots and lots of pockets, well insulated but not bulky.
Didnt wear it much as I dont like the cold. You guys know more about the
material than I do except I guess it is fire resistant and has the special
padding in the inside for warmth. I have worn it in 60 degree weather and
never got hot either. Not bulky like snow mobile suites as I remember them.
Anyway, anyone flying a kolb ultrastar would love this. I used it in a
Firestar and a Kobra. Give ya a good price. $150 and you pay the postage.
Will send pics or try to post them with this article. Ted Cowan, Kolb
Slingshot, 912UL, Alabama.
Message 2
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Hi,
Sorry, but things like this shouldn't be posted on the Kolb
List. Not pertinent. Thanx.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dickk9@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:24 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: A must see
From:
In 1968 (1967?) a SR-71 made an emergency landing at Grand Force
AFB and was "parked" between two B-52 hangers close to the N/S road
that paralled the base runway.
Enjoy.
Click here to view the slideshow:
http://www.greatdanepromilitary.com/SR-71/index.htm
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
Ricochet wrote:
>
> Was just responding to an imprecise, unqualified
> statement.
> Jerry
>
>
Jerry,
There was nothing imprecise or unqualified about my statement, I did my research
very well before I decided which engine to put on my Kolb. When someone asks
a question, I give them good information in a very clear and direct manner.
Maybe you did not want to hear what I had to say, but my information was not
unqualified or imprecise...
You trying to dismiss good information as unqualified or imprecise just because
you did not want to hear it is nothing short of childish and a disservice to
those reading and trying to make good choices for their Kolbs.
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214672#214672
Message 4
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Hi,definitely"not pertinent" UNLESS YOU FLY! oh sorry I'm shouting . Chris
Kolb =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ed Chmielewski
<edchmiel@mindspring.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, No
vember 17, 2008 9:57:26 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: A must see=0A=0A=0AHi,
=0A=0A--- --- Sorry, but things like this shouldn't be posted o
n the Kolb List. Not pertinent. Thanx.=0A=0AEd in JXN=0AMkII/503=0ADo not a
rchive.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Dickk9@aol.com =0ATo: ko
lb-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:24 PM=0ASubjec
t: Kolb-List: A must see=0A=0AFrom:=0A-=0AIn 1968 (1967?)-a-SR-71 mad
e an emergency landing at Grand Force AFB--- and was "parked" between
two B-52 hangers close to the N/S road that paralled the base runway.-
=0AEnjoy.--- =0AClick here to view the slideshow: =0A-http://www.gr
== =0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Jerry:
>
> There is no comparison between a Titan and a Kolb.
>
> Direct drive may work on a Titan, but it does not work on Kolbs.
>
> Would have saved some typing had you said you were a Titan guy and not a Kolb
guy. ;-)
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> Mesquite, NV until tomorrow...
Don't mean to jump in, but forced to agree. I've flown both (tho my Kolb time in
all in an FS II) and the airplanes fly quite a bit differently.
The titan is a slipperier plane with a wider speed range, so a small prop turning
fast can work really well. The Kolb is more of a heavy-lifting plane with a
flat bottomed airfoil. So you don't have to contend with as wide of a speed range,
and slower turning, large props work better there.
I.e. I ran a 68" 3 blade warp drive on my FSII (3.47:1 gearboxed 503) and that
was just about the perfect combo for the plane.
For what it's worth, my Titan has the 912ULS on it and only the jab 3300 with more
than 20hp more can equal the climb I get (1800 to 2000fpm solo at about 2000'
MSL). I could smoke a similar plane fitted with the 2200 ;).
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214694#214694
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
Greetings all.
This conversation on direct drive vs. reduction drive resurfaces
periodically as new folks come onto the list. The issue as so well
explained by several posters with experience flying Kolbs is the speed range
and parasitic/aerodynamic drag profile of a Kolb is vastly different than
say a Titan, or other slippery speedster.
I posted an examination of these factors in 2004 and thought it might be
helpful to repost:
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Clayton
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Rusty building again, comparing engines
John H, Denny R/Gang,
I have the same vision John H. does for the Kolbs, and that drives my choice
of engine.
John said: "My impression of the Kolb is a "super"
STOL heavy hauler with respectable
cruise. Not an airplane that will spend its life flying off a 3,000 ft
paved strip from point A to point B and back."
So what we are talking about is a plane that can carry near (or better
than!) it's own weight out of amazingly short strips and cruise fast enough
to get the job done. The Kolbs are certainly no RV-x hot rod, but then as
John points out, they don't need 3000 ft. of runway either.
For this mission, an engine that produces high thrust at lower airspeeds is
best. The easiest way to produce high thrust at low speeds is to have a
large diameter (area) propeller turning at low rpm's.
Propeller speed reduction units (PSU) in front of a piston engine are a
proven combination because piston engines are happiest at higher rpm's than
is optimum for big propellers.
A direct drive engine is going to turn the propeller at higher rpms and so
the diameter will need to be reduced to keep the tip speed below the limit.
What are smaller propellers good at? Going fast! At higher airframe
airspeeds the smaller diameter propeller will more efficiently produce
thrust making your RV-x or Glassair go very fast, but they are runway
gobblers by Kolb standards! In a Kolb, we will never go real fast due to
the wing design etc. This will always be a high lift, low speed plane. For
my mission, an engine that creates most of it's thrust at high airspeeds
will only work best for the top 4 or 5 mph of a Kolb's speed range, and do
less efficiently in the lower speeds of the flight envelope.
In deference to the many, great, direct-drive Kolbs with perfectly happy
owners out there, this is my mission I am discussing, and anyone considering
engines must first chose the mission, then chose an engine that will meet
that mission.
I hope this helps give a framework to consider what kind of engine you will
be most happy with.
-Jim
Jim Clayton
California
Mark-3X, 912ULS.....Building
________________________________
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Jones
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru?
Rick,
I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4-cycle
engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. The arguments from both sides, I've
found, change nobody's mind, typically generating more heat than light. That
said, I had both a Jab 2200 and a 3300 on my Titan and found performance
comparable to reported performance of comparable 912s (of course the 100 hp
912 had fewer horses than the 128 hp Jab), and had slightly less fuel burn.
Every sport pilot here in Madera flies behind/in front of a Jab, with one
also flying behind a 912S. I could be a little biased, I've owned five Jab
engines, and if buying another engine, that's prolly what I'd buy again, for
various reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to own a Rotax either. For sure,
very early Jabs had teething problems and didn't produce near the power
claimed, but that was long ago and far, far in the past. And, none of us
have had to land out because of an engine problem.
Now, back to my cellar....
Jerry
On Nov 16, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
Jerry/All
A direct drive high RPM engine just can't produce the same
thrust per HP as a reduction drive engine turning a big slow turning prop. I
did a fairly close direct comparison between direct drive and reduction
drive and the differences were drastically better with the reduction drive
engine. The VW engine runs at a slightly higher RPM (3200 @ cruise and 3500
@ climb) than a Jabiru so the differences may not be as drastic but the
differences are still significant. The primary consideration is that a big
slow turning prop is more efficient in turning horse power into thrust than
a small higher RPM prop. I have seen a 85 HP Jabiru powered Kolb MKIIIX fly
and was impressed with it's performance but I would guess that this just
adequate performance is due to a no compromise highly tuned prop. Most of us
redrive powered Kolb flyers get sufficient performance that we tend to
migrate more towards durability, smoothness, convenience than ultimate
performance.
I first flew my Kolb MKIIIC with a direct drive VW. The
direct drive engine was 2180cc Great Plaines engine turning a 60 X 28 two
bladed wood prop. I could only fly solo out of my strip and I would get a
65MKH cruise at close to 80% power. After a few years of flying this engine
I switched to a almost identical reduction drive VW engine on the same
plane. The reduction drive is a 1.6 to one drive turning a three bladed 72
inch PowerFin. I gained two passenger performance, cruise speed increased to
75MKH with 65-70% power, my oil/CHT temps lowered, my fuel consumption
lowered, and all this running the same engine RPMs as my direct drive
engine. Again my VW turns a bit more RPMs and my direct drive prop might not
have been finely tuned as it could have been but the differences are still
vast.
There is at least one kit airplane the offers a 120HP Jabiru
as a option rather than offering a reduction drive engine. The price of fuel
will likely return to the $4/ gallon price so I feel it would be best to get
the most performance we can out of the horse power we are feeding our
airplanes rather than increasing the HP to get the needed thrust.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Jones <mailto:maderah2@sbcglobal.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with
912 or jabiru?
Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the
912 is vastly superior...and that it provides much better performance.
Jerry
On Nov 15, 2008, at 11:34 AM, JetPilot wrote:
<orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Grant,
The Rotax 912 is a vastly superior engine to the
Jabiru in both performance and reliability. The 912 turns the prop slower
than the Jabiru and results in much better performance on a Kolb. My numbers
are very close to John and RLaird.
Climb with a 912-S is about 1300 FPM at 5200 RPM,
Stall at 30, and slow cruise at 70 MPH burning just over3 GPH at 4200 RPM. I
don't do fast cruise, I have no numbers for that. The 912 is perfect for the
airplane...
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did
not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214379#214379
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Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
At 07:01 AM 11/17/08 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Jerry,
>
>There was nothing imprecise or unqualified about my statement, I did my
research very well before I decided which engine to put on my Kolb. When
someone asks a question, I give them good information in a very clear and
direct manner. Maybe you did not want to hear what I had to say, but my
information was not unqualified or imprecise...
>
Mike,
You are not precise. From before:
"The 912 is a better engine on a Kolb, PERIOD. If you ended up with the
inferior Jabiru on your Kolb, then I'm sorry for you, but that is no reason
to try to get others to make the same mistake."
You used the word "Kolb" and the implication is that nothing but a 912 is a
good engine. That rules out all lower hp Rotax and/or any other engine
mounted on a Kolb and this implies that a lot us who fly Kolbs are using
inferior engines. You may not want to hear this, but I really enjoy flying
my Kolb FireFly with out a 912 mounted on it.
Fly safe!
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 8
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I am will to provide a set of -3 Teflon core stainless steel brake lines to the
first builder who can provide me with "stock" measurements on a Kolb.
Please send information to:
brett(at)bonacoinc dot com.
Regards,
Brett
Bonaco,Inc.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214745#214745
Message 9
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Bret
Nice offer but you will get much better figures if you state the Kolb model
and gear leg options you want the figures for. Also some models of Kolbs
have adjustable pedals so there is movement of the brake line that might not
work well with steel lines.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "ThisOne" <thisone58@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:51 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brake lines
>
> I am will to provide a set of -3 Teflon core stainless steel brake lines
> to the first builder who can provide me with "stock" measurements on a
> Kolb.
>
> Please send information to:
> brett(at)bonacoinc dot com.
>
> Regards,
> Brett
> Bonaco,Inc.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214745#214745
>
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
Now that we've beat that one to death.... back to SEAFOAM!
BB, puny 3 cylinder suzuki, redrive (and it actually flies!)
On 17, Nov 2008, at 3:43 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>
> At 07:01 AM 11/17/08 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jerry,
>>
>> There was nothing imprecise or unqualified about my statement, I
>> did my
> research very well before I decided which engine to put on my
> Kolb. When
> someone asks a question, I give them good information in a very
> clear and
> direct manner. Maybe you did not want to hear what I had to say,
> but my
> information was not unqualified or imprecise...
>>
>
> Mike,
>
> You are not precise. From before:
>
> "The 912 is a better engine on a Kolb, PERIOD. If you ended up
> with the
> inferior Jabiru on your Kolb, then I'm sorry for you, but that is
> no reason
> to try to get others to make the same mistake."
>
> You used the word "Kolb" and the implication is that nothing but a
> 912 is a
> good engine. That rules out all lower hp Rotax and/or any other
> engine
> mounted on a Kolb and this implies that a lot us who fly Kolbs are
> using
> inferior engines. You may not want to hear this, but I really
> enjoy flying
> my Kolb FireFly with out a 912 mounted on it.
>
> Fly safe!
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Fuel Boost Pump for MkIII/Rotax912 |
I'm putting together my fuel system for my MkIII and need some advice on a boost
pump. I'm having a 20 gal aluminum fuel tank made in place of the two 5 gal
plastic jugs, and plan on adding a gasolator with water drain and a boost pump.
I'm planning on using a 912 (don't have it yet...looking for a used one), so
the question is what type (facet?) and size (4 psi?) boost pump is recommended
for the 912.
Mark Rinehart
Indy MkIII
Message 12
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Subject: | Anyone with a jab on a mk3c/x?? |
Is there anyone out there with a Jabiru 2200 on a MK 3 C or X ?If there is can
you please give me some kind of idea of how it flies with it?
thanks,
chris ambrose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214837#214837
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