---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/17/08: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:55 AM - cold weather flight suit (Ted Cowan) 2. 06:57 AM - Re: A must see (Ed Chmielewski) 3. 07:01 AM - Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (JetPilot) 4. 07:42 AM - Re: A must see (chris davis) 5. 08:10 AM - Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (lucien) 6. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (James Clayton) 7. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Jack B. Hart) 8. 12:51 PM - Re: Brake lines (ThisOne) 9. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Brake lines (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 10. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (robert bean) 11. 07:02 PM - Fuel Boost Pump for MkIII/Rotax912 (mark rinehart) 12. 10:32 PM - Anyone with a jab on a mk3c/x?? (ces308) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:02 AM PST US From: "Ted Cowan" Subject: Kolb-List: cold weather flight suit Wanted to give the List the first crack at a very good deal. I have an Army Chopper Cold weather suit I got a few years ago when I was flying open rag wings. It kept me nice and comfy no matter the temp. It is a military type jump suit with lots and lots of pockets, well insulated but not bulky. Didnt wear it much as I dont like the cold. You guys know more about the material than I do except I guess it is fire resistant and has the special padding in the inside for warmth. I have worn it in 60 degree weather and never got hot either. Not bulky like snow mobile suites as I remember them. Anyway, anyone flying a kolb ultrastar would love this. I used it in a Firestar and a Kobra. Give ya a good price. $150 and you pay the postage. Will send pics or try to post them with this article. Ted Cowan, Kolb Slingshot, 912UL, Alabama. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:49 AM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: A must see Hi, Sorry, but things like this shouldn't be posted on the Kolb List. Not pertinent. Thanx. Ed in JXN MkII/503 Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dickk9@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:24 PM Subject: Kolb-List: A must see From: In 1968 (1967?) a SR-71 made an emergency landing at Grand Force AFB and was "parked" between two B-52 hangers close to the N/S road that paralled the base runway. Enjoy. Click here to view the slideshow: http://www.greatdanepromilitary.com/SR-71/index.htm ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:45 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? From: "JetPilot" Ricochet wrote: > > Was just responding to an imprecise, unqualified > statement. > Jerry > > Jerry, There was nothing imprecise or unqualified about my statement, I did my research very well before I decided which engine to put on my Kolb. When someone asks a question, I give them good information in a very clear and direct manner. Maybe you did not want to hear what I had to say, but my information was not unqualified or imprecise... You trying to dismiss good information as unqualified or imprecise just because you did not want to hear it is nothing short of childish and a disservice to those reading and trying to make good choices for their Kolbs. -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214672#214672 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:08 AM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: A must see Hi,definitely"not pertinent" UNLESS YOU FLY! oh sorry I'm shouting . Chris Kolb =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ed Chmielewski =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, No vember 17, 2008 9:57:26 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: A must see=0A=0A=0AHi, =0A=0A--- --- Sorry, but things like this shouldn't be posted o n the Kolb List. Not pertinent. Thanx.=0A=0AEd in JXN=0AMkII/503=0ADo not a rchive.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Dickk9@aol.com =0ATo: ko lb-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:24 PM=0ASubjec t: Kolb-List: A must see=0A=0AFrom:=0A-=0AIn 1968 (1967?)-a-SR-71 mad e an emergency landing at Grand Force AFB--- and was "parked" between two B-52 hangers close to the N/S road that paralled the base runway.- =0AEnjoy.--- =0AClick here to view the slideshow: =0A-http://www.gr == =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:48 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > > Jerry: > > There is no comparison between a Titan and a Kolb. > > Direct drive may work on a Titan, but it does not work on Kolbs. > > Would have saved some typing had you said you were a Titan guy and not a Kolb guy. ;-) > > Take care, > > john h > Mesquite, NV until tomorrow... Don't mean to jump in, but forced to agree. I've flown both (tho my Kolb time in all in an FS II) and the airplanes fly quite a bit differently. The titan is a slipperier plane with a wider speed range, so a small prop turning fast can work really well. The Kolb is more of a heavy-lifting plane with a flat bottomed airfoil. So you don't have to contend with as wide of a speed range, and slower turning, large props work better there. I.e. I ran a 68" 3 blade warp drive on my FSII (3.47:1 gearboxed 503) and that was just about the perfect combo for the plane. For what it's worth, my Titan has the 912ULS on it and only the jab 3300 with more than 20hp more can equal the climb I get (1800 to 2000fpm solo at about 2000' MSL). I could smoke a similar plane fitted with the 2200 ;). LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214694#214694 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:11 PM PST US From: "James Clayton" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Greetings all. This conversation on direct drive vs. reduction drive resurfaces periodically as new folks come onto the list. The issue as so well explained by several posters with experience flying Kolbs is the speed range and parasitic/aerodynamic drag profile of a Kolb is vastly different than say a Titan, or other slippery speedster. I posted an examination of these factors in 2004 and thought it might be helpful to repost: -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Clayton Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Rusty building again, comparing engines John H, Denny R/Gang, I have the same vision John H. does for the Kolbs, and that drives my choice of engine. John said: "My impression of the Kolb is a "super" STOL heavy hauler with respectable cruise. Not an airplane that will spend its life flying off a 3,000 ft paved strip from point A to point B and back." So what we are talking about is a plane that can carry near (or better than!) it's own weight out of amazingly short strips and cruise fast enough to get the job done. The Kolbs are certainly no RV-x hot rod, but then as John points out, they don't need 3000 ft. of runway either. For this mission, an engine that produces high thrust at lower airspeeds is best. The easiest way to produce high thrust at low speeds is to have a large diameter (area) propeller turning at low rpm's. Propeller speed reduction units (PSU) in front of a piston engine are a proven combination because piston engines are happiest at higher rpm's than is optimum for big propellers. A direct drive engine is going to turn the propeller at higher rpms and so the diameter will need to be reduced to keep the tip speed below the limit. What are smaller propellers good at? Going fast! At higher airframe airspeeds the smaller diameter propeller will more efficiently produce thrust making your RV-x or Glassair go very fast, but they are runway gobblers by Kolb standards! In a Kolb, we will never go real fast due to the wing design etc. This will always be a high lift, low speed plane. For my mission, an engine that creates most of it's thrust at high airspeeds will only work best for the top 4 or 5 mph of a Kolb's speed range, and do less efficiently in the lower speeds of the flight envelope. In deference to the many, great, direct-drive Kolbs with perfectly happy owners out there, this is my mission I am discussing, and anyone considering engines must first chose the mission, then chose an engine that will meet that mission. I hope this helps give a framework to consider what kind of engine you will be most happy with. -Jim Jim Clayton California Mark-3X, 912ULS.....Building ________________________________ From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Jones Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Rick, I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4-cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. The arguments from both sides, I've found, change nobody's mind, typically generating more heat than light. That said, I had both a Jab 2200 and a 3300 on my Titan and found performance comparable to reported performance of comparable 912s (of course the 100 hp 912 had fewer horses than the 128 hp Jab), and had slightly less fuel burn. Every sport pilot here in Madera flies behind/in front of a Jab, with one also flying behind a 912S. I could be a little biased, I've owned five Jab engines, and if buying another engine, that's prolly what I'd buy again, for various reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to own a Rotax either. For sure, very early Jabs had teething problems and didn't produce near the power claimed, but that was long ago and far, far in the past. And, none of us have had to land out because of an engine problem. Now, back to my cellar.... Jerry On Nov 16, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: Jerry/All A direct drive high RPM engine just can't produce the same thrust per HP as a reduction drive engine turning a big slow turning prop. I did a fairly close direct comparison between direct drive and reduction drive and the differences were drastically better with the reduction drive engine. The VW engine runs at a slightly higher RPM (3200 @ cruise and 3500 @ climb) than a Jabiru so the differences may not be as drastic but the differences are still significant. The primary consideration is that a big slow turning prop is more efficient in turning horse power into thrust than a small higher RPM prop. I have seen a 85 HP Jabiru powered Kolb MKIIIX fly and was impressed with it's performance but I would guess that this just adequate performance is due to a no compromise highly tuned prop. Most of us redrive powered Kolb flyers get sufficient performance that we tend to migrate more towards durability, smoothness, convenience than ultimate performance. I first flew my Kolb MKIIIC with a direct drive VW. The direct drive engine was 2180cc Great Plaines engine turning a 60 X 28 two bladed wood prop. I could only fly solo out of my strip and I would get a 65MKH cruise at close to 80% power. After a few years of flying this engine I switched to a almost identical reduction drive VW engine on the same plane. The reduction drive is a 1.6 to one drive turning a three bladed 72 inch PowerFin. I gained two passenger performance, cruise speed increased to 75MKH with 65-70% power, my oil/CHT temps lowered, my fuel consumption lowered, and all this running the same engine RPMs as my direct drive engine. Again my VW turns a bit more RPMs and my direct drive prop might not have been finely tuned as it could have been but the differences are still vast. There is at least one kit airplane the offers a 120HP Jabiru as a option rather than offering a reduction drive engine. The price of fuel will likely return to the $4/ gallon price so I feel it would be best to get the most performance we can out of the horse power we are feeding our airplanes rather than increasing the HP to get the needed thrust. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Jones To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the 912 is vastly superior...and that it provides much better performance. Jerry On Nov 15, 2008, at 11:34 AM, JetPilot wrote: Grant, The Rotax 912 is a vastly superior engine to the Jabiru in both performance and reliability. The 912 turns the prop slower than the Jabiru and results in much better performance on a Kolb. My numbers are very close to John and RLaird. Climb with a 912-S is about 1300 FPM at 5200 RPM, Stall at 30, and slow cruise at 70 MPH burning just over3 GPH at 4200 RPM. I don't do fast cruise, I have no numbers for that. The 912 is perfect for the airplane... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214379#214379 < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! List Contribution Web Site: < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kolb-List Email Forum - < Un List as such utilities many margin-top:the> <> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution Dralle, List =========== Features Chat, FAQ, href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Kolb-List the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========== http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:28 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? At 07:01 AM 11/17/08 -0800, you wrote: > > >Jerry, > >There was nothing imprecise or unqualified about my statement, I did my research very well before I decided which engine to put on my Kolb. When someone asks a question, I give them good information in a very clear and direct manner. Maybe you did not want to hear what I had to say, but my information was not unqualified or imprecise... > Mike, You are not precise. From before: "The 912 is a better engine on a Kolb, PERIOD. If you ended up with the inferior Jabiru on your Kolb, then I'm sorry for you, but that is no reason to try to get others to make the same mistake." You used the word "Kolb" and the implication is that nothing but a 912 is a good engine. That rules out all lower hp Rotax and/or any other engine mounted on a Kolb and this implies that a lot us who fly Kolbs are using inferior engines. You may not want to hear this, but I really enjoy flying my Kolb FireFly with out a 912 mounted on it. Fly safe! Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brake lines From: "ThisOne" I am will to provide a set of -3 Teflon core stainless steel brake lines to the first builder who can provide me with "stock" measurements on a Kolb. Please send information to: brett(at)bonacoinc dot com. Regards, Brett Bonaco,Inc. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214745#214745 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:14 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brake lines Bret Nice offer but you will get much better figures if you state the Kolb model and gear leg options you want the figures for. Also some models of Kolbs have adjustable pedals so there is movement of the brake line that might not work well with steel lines. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "ThisOne" Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brake lines > > I am will to provide a set of -3 Teflon core stainless steel brake lines > to the first builder who can provide me with "stock" measurements on a > Kolb. > > Please send information to: > brett(at)bonacoinc dot com. > > Regards, > Brett > Bonaco,Inc. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214745#214745 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:29 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? Now that we've beat that one to death.... back to SEAFOAM! BB, puny 3 cylinder suzuki, redrive (and it actually flies!) On 17, Nov 2008, at 3:43 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > > At 07:01 AM 11/17/08 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >> Jerry, >> >> There was nothing imprecise or unqualified about my statement, I >> did my > research very well before I decided which engine to put on my > Kolb. When > someone asks a question, I give them good information in a very > clear and > direct manner. Maybe you did not want to hear what I had to say, > but my > information was not unqualified or imprecise... >> > > Mike, > > You are not precise. From before: > > "The 912 is a better engine on a Kolb, PERIOD. If you ended up > with the > inferior Jabiru on your Kolb, then I'm sorry for you, but that is > no reason > to try to get others to make the same mistake." > > You used the word "Kolb" and the implication is that nothing but a > 912 is a > good engine. That rules out all lower hp Rotax and/or any other > engine > mounted on a Kolb and this implies that a lot us who fly Kolbs are > using > inferior engines. You may not want to hear this, but I really > enjoy flying > my Kolb FireFly with out a 912 mounted on it. > > Fly safe! > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:22 PM PST US From: mark rinehart Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel Boost Pump for MkIII/Rotax912 I'm putting together my fuel system for my MkIII and need some advice on a boost pump. I'm having a 20 gal aluminum fuel tank made in place of the two 5 gal plastic jugs, and plan on adding a gasolator with water drain and a boost pump. I'm planning on using a 912 (don't have it yet...looking for a used one), so the question is what type (facet?) and size (4 psi?) boost pump is recommended for the 912. Mark Rinehart Indy MkIII ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:22 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Anyone with a jab on a mk3c/x?? From: "ces308" Is there anyone out there with a Jabiru 2200 on a MK 3 C or X ?If there is can you please give me some kind of idea of how it flies with it? thanks, chris ambrose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214837#214837 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.