Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:24 AM - List of Contributors 2008 (Matt Dralle)
2. 04:10 AM - Re: VG affect on stall (zeprep251@aol.com)
3. 05:03 AM - Re: Re: FS II discontinued? (KOLB AIRCRAFT)
4. 05:04 AM - Re: FS II discontinued? (KOLB AIRCRAFT)
5. 05:07 AM - Re: VG affect on stall (grantr)
6. 06:04 AM - Re: VG affect on stall ()
7. 06:36 AM - Re: VG affect on stall (beauford T)
8. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? ()
9. 11:26 AM - Re: VG affect on stall ()
10. 11:39 AM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (HShack@aol.com)
11. 01:04 PM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (grantr)
12. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (John Hauck)
13. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Dana Hague)
14. 02:30 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (robert bean)
15. 02:36 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (robert bean)
16. 03:34 PM - Re: VG affect on stall (chris davis)
17. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (possums)
18. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (possums)
19. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Dana Hague)
20. 04:13 PM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (grantr)
21. 04:22 PM - Re: El Paso, Texas (Dave Rains)
22. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (John Hauck)
23. 05:11 PM - Re: VG affect on stall (beauford T)
24. 06:14 PM - HKS 700 E (Larry Cottrell)
25. 06:54 PM - Re: VG affect on stall (possums)
26. 07:33 PM - Re: VG affect on stall (Dave Bigelow)
27. 07:36 PM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (grantr)
28. 07:39 PM - Re: HKS 700 E (grantr)
29. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: HKS 700 E (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | List of Contributors 2008 |
Dear Listers,
This year's Fund Raiser has drawn to a close and I want to thank everyone that
so generously made a contribution this year in support of the Matronics Email
List and Forum operation. Your generosity keeps the wheels on this cart and I
truly appreciate the many kind words of encouragement and financial reimbursement.
If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser, please
feel free to do so. The great List Fund Raiser gifts will be available
on the Contribution site for a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution
today and still get your great gift! Once again, the URL for the Contribution
web site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by personal check to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of discounted merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated!
And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2008 List of Contributors current
as of 12/7/08! Have a look at this list of names as *these* are the people
that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you
enough for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
THANK YOU!
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2008.html
I will be shipping out all of the gifts around the end of December. In most cases,
gifts will be shipped via US Postal Service.
Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
Disagree,
?????? G.Aman MK-3C? 400hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: grantr <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 5:11 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
Someone told me that VGs do lower stall speed and improve low speed handling but
there is a trade off. They told me VGs cause a plane to stall more sharply or
more abrupt than it would without them.
In other words most planes give warning signs prior to the stall such as the
shaking and light control forces in the stick however with VGs this tends to not
occurs as the plane nears stall. In other words with VGs, the plane seems to be
flying rock solid at slow airspeed say "slow flight" and then all of a sudden
the plane is in a fully developed stall with little to no warning.
The ones of you using or have tried vgs, Do you agree or disagree with this?
On my plane in a power off stall without Vgs, It does not give really any
warning. When the ASI hits 41 the nose drops. Power on it gives plenty of waring
as the prop gets really loud prior to the stall.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218057#218057
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FS II discontinued? |
grantr. not discontinued, but on special orders only, you order kit 1 and
kit 2 and 50% down. any more questions call donnie. thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "grantr" <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FS II discontinued?
>
> Yes discontinued
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218054#218054
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: FS II discontinued? |
lucien, not discontinued, but special orders only, order kit 1 and kit 2
with 50% down and we will build. thanks donnie.
----- Original Message -----
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 2:30 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: FS II discontinued?
>
> Hi all,
>
> I was browsing the kolb site yesterday and noticed the FS II is no longer
listed. Has it been discontinued or something like that?
>
> Just curious,
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218036#218036
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
Howard,
Do you have a drawing for your Vgs?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218175#218175
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
I used the small alum VG's between each rib on the wings and dropped my
stall speeds. 10 mph solo and 8 mph duel and also increased the rate of
climb solo 300-400 fpm. The over all performance was increased plus
shorter ground roll and landing for short strips.
I have warp drive prop and increased the pitch 3 deg's for better cruise
speeds which increased the speed between 10-15 mph and didn't affect any
thing other than dropped climb rate 100-200 fpm. Mark III C / 912UL
I have been thinking about putting them on the horizontal stab. but
heard that it drops the tail faster at stall speeds when landing with
ground effect. Did you noticed this to be true or not and if not how do
you have the 3 VG's spacing?
I am getting ready to put a set on my Challenger CWS II to see if it
will help also along with the drooped wing tips, 24' wing span.
From: beauford T
Sent: 2008-12-07 22:18
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
I used Brother Shackleford's flashing design... 10 per wing... dropped
stall 5 mph indicated... stall remains a non-event...
straight ahead and slow to break at normal acceleration... I also put 3
per side under the horizontal stab and can tell a big difference in
elevator authority near stall speed...since these worked out so well,
went nuts and put 3 per side on the vertical
stab to see if it would give more rudder authority for slips...some
small improvement, but not as much as on the wings
or the horizontal stab. Bystanders report that the airplane now
whistles as it passes by...
Thoroughly Generated Beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HShack@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
When I designed & installed my VG's some 7 or 8 yrs. ago, I put 7 on
each wing [these were the aluminum flashing kind]. My stall dropped
from 41 to 36. The stall was still very gentle; in fact it didn't
really want to stall.
I added 13 more per wing. Stall dropped another 4 mph, but when she
stalled it was rather violent & scary. I hated the way it felt, so went
back to the original 7 per wing. Happy again.
By the way, I also have them under my horiz. stab.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 12/7/2008 8:12:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grant_richardson25@yahoo.com writes:
Someone told me that VGs do lower stall speed and improve low speed
handling but there is a trade off. They told me VGs cause a plane to
stall more sharply or more abrupt than it would without them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
Unidentified writer:
I spaced the ones on the bottom of the stab 6 inches apart and 3 inches
forward of the elevator hinge... as far as the
tail "dropping" at the stall in ground effect -- yes, with the VG's, it
is now possible to land the FF tailwheel first at full stall if one
wishes to... I weigh about 220 and before the VG's, I ran out of
elevator before I could get the tail quite to 3-point attitude in a full
stall... faced with the prospect of giving up Gin and/or Cheesecake
(note caps) in order to land my airplane properly, I elected the
patented Howard Shackleford VG option and can now 3 point in a full
stall arrival with a slight bit of up elevator left over...it's an
improvement I plan to keep..
bloated beauford
FF-076, N173BW
Brandon, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: smlplanet@msn.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
I used the small alum VG's between each rib on the wings and dropped
my stall speeds. 10 mph solo and 8 mph duel and also increased the rate
of climb solo 300-400 fpm. The over all performance was increased plus
shorter ground roll and landing for short strips.
I have warp drive prop and increased the pitch 3 deg's for better
cruise speeds which increased the speed between 10-15 mph and didn't
affect any thing other than dropped climb rate 100-200 fpm. Mark III C /
912UL
I have been thinking about putting them on the horizontal stab. but
heard that it drops the tail faster at stall speeds when landing with
ground effect. Did you noticed this to be true or not and if not how do
you have the 3 VG's spacing?
I am getting ready to put a set on my Challenger CWS II to see if it
will help also along with the drooped wing tips, 24' wing span.
From: beauford T
Sent: 2008-12-07 22:18
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
I used Brother Shackleford's flashing design... 10 per wing... dropped
stall 5 mph indicated... stall remains a non-event...
straight ahead and slow to break at normal acceleration... I also put
3 per side under the horizontal stab and can tell a big difference in
elevator authority near stall speed...since these worked out so well,
went nuts and put 3 per side on the vertical
stab to see if it would give more rudder authority for slips...some
small improvement, but not as much as on the wings
or the horizontal stab. Bystanders report that the airplane now
whistles as it passes by...
Thoroughly Generated Beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HShack@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
When I designed & installed my VG's some 7 or 8 yrs. ago, I put 7 on
each wing [these were the aluminum flashing kind]. My stall dropped
from 41 to 36. The stall was still very gentle; in fact it didn't
really want to stall.
I added 13 more per wing. Stall dropped another 4 mph, but when she
stalled it was rather violent & scary. I hated the way it felt, so went
back to the original 7 per wing. Happy again.
By the way, I also have them under my horiz. stab.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 12/7/2008 8:12:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grant_richardson25@yahoo.com writes:
Someone told me that VGs do lower stall speed and improve low
speed handling but there is a trade off. They told me VGs cause a plane
to stall more sharply or more abrupt than it would without them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite
sites vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
You may be able to reduce the altitude loss with practice. My guess is that your
plane can make a successful 180 degree turn without losing over 100 feet of
altitude. My best in a Cessna 150 was 100 feet and the best in a PA-11 Cub was
50 feet. Practicing the technique is a worthwhile effort.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
To insure that the tips keep flying while the root stalls is why I only used VG's
from the wing tips to the inboard end of the flaps. That leaves a good bit
of mid wing to stall first.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
I no longer have the drawing, but perhaps brother Cottrell or Beauford has a
copy to send you.
Before I learned a little about my computer, I snail-mailed about 50
drawings. Later, emailed about 200. It got to be too much.
Now, an outfit called _www.landshorter.com_ (http://www.landshorter.com)
has a nice setup for about $100 [so I'm told].
VG's give you the most bang for the buck I can imagine. Worth a C note & a
couple hours.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 12/8/2008 8:08:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grant_richardson25@yahoo.com writes:
Howard,
Do you have a drawing for your Vgs?
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
That almost seems impossible. How did you only loss 100 feet in a 180o turn?
What I read suggest making a 45o turn at best glide speed to lose the least altitude
in a 180o turn.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218285#218285
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
> What I read suggest making a 45o turn at best glide speed to lose the
least altitude in a 180o turn.
Grant:
You are saying, "45 degree turn" and I think you mean "45 degree bank".
There are a whole lot of varibles when it comes to gliding turns and
altitude loss. The faster you are flying when you begin the glide has a lot
to do with how much altitude will be lost. Also, how aggressive you turn
will make a big difference. A Kolb will turn on its wing tip, or so it
seems when you really honk it around using a lot of up elevator in a steep
bank.
I haven't flown in almost three months. Next time I fly, probably tomorrow,
if I can get the 912 cranked and knock off most of the dust, bug crap, ect,
I'll see what my altitude loss is in a 180 degree turn with a dead stick.
Dead stick will produce less altitude loss than an idling prop.
Good flying weather at hauck's holler, alabama, this afternoon, but I don't
know about tomorrow.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 02:21 PM 12/8/2008, apilot@surewest.net wrote:
>You may be able to reduce the altitude loss with practice. My guess is
>that your plane can make a successful 180 degree turn without losing over
>100 feet of altitude. My best in a Cessna 150 was 100 feet and the best
>in a PA-11 Cub was 50 feet. Practicing the technique is a worthwhile effort.
100' and 50' seems awfully low, unless you have a good bit of energy
(speed) at the start... from what starting condition? There's also
reaction time. I figure 250' in my Ultrastar, sudden power loss from a
normal (i.e. low airspeed) climb... I use 300' to be safe.
-Dana
--
We have enough youth; how about a Fountain of Smart?
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
My guess is a hastily begun step angle turn would yield the best
results. Less exposure time to drag.
Sure easy to prove but I'm not going to do it today.
BB
On 8, Dec 2008, at 4:04 PM, grantr wrote:
> <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
>
> That almost seems impossible. How did you only loss 100 feet in a
> 180o turn?
>
> What I read suggest making a 45o turn at best glide speed to lose
> the least altitude in a 180o turn.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218285#218285
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
steep angle (bank)
On 8, Dec 2008, at 5:29 PM, robert bean wrote:
>
> My guess is a hastily begun step angle turn would yield the best
> results. Less exposure time to drag.
>
> Sure easy to prove but I'm not going to do it today.
> BB
>
> On 8, Dec 2008, at 4:04 PM, grantr wrote:
>
>> <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
>>
>> That almost seems impossible. How did you only loss 100 feet in a
>> 180o turn?
>>
>> What I read suggest making a 45o turn at best glide speed to lose
>> the least altitude in a 180o turn.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218285#218285
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
Beauford, Did you say you weigh 220 and from your signature FF it appears t
hat- you fly a FireFly is that correct? I weigh about 215 and am building
a FireFly and I was a bit concerned about that short wing ! Before my acci
dent I only weighed 190 and was flying a Firestar with a 503- and that bi
rd had a lot of wing .- If what I determined about your signature is corr
ect , how does it do? do you have a 447? how many feet per min does it clim
b at ? Sorry about all these questions but there are not many people that f
ly FireFlys on the list especially not " Bloated" ones . Thank you in advan
ce for any info you could give me . Chris=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________
_____________=0AFrom: beauford T <beauford173@verizon.net>=0ATo: kolb-list@
matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, December 8, 2008 9:36:02 AM=0ASubject: Re: Ko
lb-List: VG affect on stall=0A=0A=0AUnidentified writer:=0AI spaced the one
s on the bottom of the stab 6 inches apart and 3 inches forward of the elev
ator hinge... as far as the=0Atail "dropping" at the stall in ground effect
-- yes, with the VG's, it is now possible to land the FF tailwheel first a
t full stall if one wishes to... I weigh about 220 and before the VG's, I r
an out of elevator before I could get the tail quite to 3-point attitude in
a full stall...- faced with the prospect of giving up Gin and/or Cheesec
ake (note caps)-in order to land my airplane properly, I elected the pate
nted Howard Shackleford VG option and can now 3 point in a full stall arriv
al with a slight bit of up elevator left over...it's an improvement I plan
to keep..=0A=0Abloated beauford=0AFF-076, N173BW=0ABrandon, FL=0A----- Orig
inal Message ----- =0AFrom: smlplanet@msn.com =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.co
m =0ASent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:03 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: VG a
ffect on stall=0A=0AI used the small alum VG's between each rib on the wing
s and dropped my stall speeds. 10 mph solo and 8 mph duel and also increase
d the rate of climb solo 300-400 fpm. The over all performance was increase
d plus shorter-ground roll and landing for short strips.=0AI have-warp
drive prop and increased the pitch 3 deg's for better cruise speeds which i
ncreased the speed between 10-15 mph and didn't affect any thing other than
dropped climb rate 100-200 fpm. Mark III C / 912UL=0AI have been thinking
about putting them on the horizontal stab. but heard that it drops the tail
faster at stall speeds when landing with ground effect.-Did you noticed
this to be true or not and if not how do you have the 3 VG's spacing?=0AI a
m getting ready to put a set on my Challenger CWS II to see if it will help
also along with the drooped wing tips,-24' wing span.--=0A=0A=0AFrom
: beauford T =0ASent: 2008-12-07 22:18=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com =0ASub
ject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall=0A=0AI used Brother Shackleford's f
lashing design... 10 per wing... dropped stall 5 mph indicated... stall rem
ains a non-event...=0Astraight ahead and slow to break at normal accelerati
on... I also put 3 per side under the horizontal stab and can tell a big di
fference in=0Aelevator authority near stall speed...since these worked out
so well, went nuts and put 3 per side on the vertical=0Astab to see if it w
ould give more rudder authority for slips...some small improvement, but not
as much as on the wings=0Aor the horizontal stab.---Bystanders repor
t that the airplane now whistles as it passes by...=0A=0AThoroughly Generat
ed Beauford=0AFF-076=0ABrandon, FL=0ADo not archive=0A----- Original Messag
e ----- =0AFrom: HShack@aol.com =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sun
day, December 07, 2008 9:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
=0AWhen I designed & installed my VG's some 7 or 8 yrs. ago, I put 7 on eac
h wing [these were the aluminum flashing kind].- My stall dropped from 41
to 36.- The stall was still very gentle; in fact it didn't really want t
o stall.- =0A=0AI added 13 more per wing.- Stall dropped another 4 mph,
but when she stalled it was rather violent & scary.- I hated the way it
felt, so went back to the original 7 per wing.- Happy again.=0A=0ABy the
way, I also have them under my horiz. stab.=0A=0AHoward Shackleford=0AFS II
=0ASC =0A=0AIn a message dated 12/7/2008 8:12:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
, grant_richardson25@yahoo.com writes:=0ASomeone told me that VGs do lower
stall speed and improve low speed handling but there is a trade off.- The
y told me VGs cause a plane to stall more sharply or more abrupt- than it
would without them.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AMa
ke your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites vanity
&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.=0A href="http://www.matronic
s.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 04:50 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote:
>>You may be able to reduce the altitude loss with practice. My
>>guess is that your plane can make a successful 180 degree turn
>>without losing over 100 feet of altitude. My best in a Cessna 150
>>was 100 feet and the best in a PA-11 Cub was 50 feet. Practicing
>>the technique is a worthwhile effort.
>
>100' and 50' seems awfully low, unless you have a good bit of energy
>(speed) at the start... from what starting condition? There's also
>reaction time. I figure 250' in my Ultrastar, sudden power loss
>from a normal (i.e. low airspeed) climb... I use 300' to be safe.
>
>-Dana
>--
I can do a full turn in a spin and lose less than 300 ft.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 06:45 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote:
>
>I can do a full turn in a spin and lose less than 300 ft.
See:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104&hl=en
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 06:45 PM 12/8/2008, possums wrote:
>I can do a full turn in a spin and lose less than 300 ft.
Not a recommended maneuver after and engine failure on takeoff though... :)
-Dana
--
Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off now.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
John,
Yes I meant 45o bank not turn. [Wink] Please do let us know how much you loss
in an engine out 180. I don't have the nerve to kill a perfectly good running
engine yet.
My test was for the purpose of determining how high i would need to be to turn
back to the runway if I had an engine failure on take off.
The 300 feet lost was from entering the turn to exiting wings level. I know it
will take a little more during a turn back due to the fact a 180 will not have
the plane aligned with the runway.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218359#218359
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: El Paso, Texas |
[quote="pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com"]You are both still ugly....
> and that there ain't a Kolb..>>
True!
But we're happy! :D
Skeeter
--------
Dave Rains
N8086T
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218363#218363
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
> I don't have the nerve to kill a perfectly good running engine yet.
>
> My test was for the purpose of determining how high i would need to be to
> turn back to the runway if I had an engine failure on take off.
>
> The 300 feet lost was from entering the turn to exiting wings level. I
> know it will take a little more during a turn back due to the fact a 180
> will not have the plane aligned with the runway.
Grant:
Turning back to the runway kills lot of good folks. This maneuver
introduces a lot more ways to hurt your airplane and yourself.
My first engine out, in a fixed wing, was my Ultrastar. I was so dead set
on getting back to where I had come from, I mushed the little Ultrastar in,
experiencing a very hard landing. Engine quit dead about 100 feet on
takeoff. In my effort to get turned around, I did not see the several
thousand feet of taxiway almost directly in front of me.
Hard maneuvering with a dead engine during an emergency situation makes it
so easy to try to turn harder than the plane will fly, and try to stretch
the glide by slowing down airspeed. All the previous are inviting a stall,
spin accident.
I think I will shoot straight ahead, deviating left or right to make the
best landing I can. My primary purpose is to survive with as little damage
to me as possible. The airplane can be repaired or replaced if necessary.
Flying off a "real" airport, always us all of the runway, whether 3,000 feet
or 6,000 feet. At the rate our Kolbs climb, and the speed they climb, there
is generally always room to land if you experience an engine out on takeoff.
john h
mkIII
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
...Brother Davis...
Yessir, the Kleenex Kolb is a FireFly... True, the wing is a tad
abbreviated, but there is an upside -- it rides well in the chop while
the
long-wing sissies are getting the living hell pounded out of them in the
same stuff.
The little Nazi engine is indeed a 447... when it deigns to function, it
climbs the Fly in a sprightly manner, despite my gradually accumulated
bulk. With the IVO pitched for climb and the carb needle jacked up a
notch to keep up with the brutal 65 degree temps we have been
experiencing here in west Fla this past week, I reckon it did at least
800 fpm or so, turning 6350 rpm in the climb...Back in the summer in the
heat, I experimented with setting the prop at a more leisurely 6100 to
see if fuel endurance would improve, but it climbed like a Chevy
Suburban with low tires, so I reverted to the climb pitch setting... We
are both happier there...
The single most noteworthy improvement I see from the VGs on the Fly
wing is the ability to execute a power-off flare in ground effect from a
50 IAS glide without blowing out the bottom like a bowling ball through
a wet newspaper... the VG's add just enough extra lift at that critical
point to make it safe and fun... otherwise, needed 55 in the glide and
mebbe a touch of power at the flare... I predict that you will learn to
really like the drooping ailerons.... I think they make a big difference
in the ground effect operations of this short-winged little airplane.
One thing: You did not mention your height... Am considering hiring a
private contractor with appropriate equipment to sling-load me in and
out of the Fly, despite the fact that I skip breakfast and scrupulously
empty my pockets of car-keys, gas station receipts, excess change,
ball-point pens, the spare Arturo Fuente and the little
remove-before-flight tag from the BRS prior to attempting the dreaded
FireFly mount or dismount. Negotiating one's feet safely around the
windshield, whilst simultaneously suspending one's flabby butt in midair
over the seat with both hands on the siderails and a deeply veined
purple face, is a real crowd-pleaser.... Upon landing, I have been
known to feign illness, or a drunken stupor, and sit quietly in place in
the airplane until the onlookers lost interest and melted away before
attempting it. I don't know how long your legs are, but I recommend you
consider an enlarged windshield cut-out on the right side. Saves public
humiliation.... until one returns home, anyway...
Good luck with your Fly, sir...
bucolic beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: chris davis
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG affect on stall
Beauford, Did you say you weigh 220 and from your signature FF it
appears that you fly a FireFly is that correct? I weigh about 215 and
am building a FireFly and I was a bit concerned about that short wing !
Before my accident I only weighed 190 and was flying a Firestar with a
503 and that bird had a lot of wing . If what I determined about your
signature is correct , how does it do? do you have a 447? how many feet
per min does it climb at ? Sorry about all these questions but there are
not many people that fly FireFlys on the list especially not " Bloated"
ones . Thank you in advance for any info you could give me . Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: beauford T <beauford173@verizon.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
----- Original Message -----
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 24
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Guys, and Cristal,
I have completed the installation of a HKS 700 E to my Firestar II.
Well actually I still have to hook up the tach and install two switches
for the mags and add oil before I can fire it up. I am also waiting on a
quick connect oil drain valve to put on the bottom of the oil tank. It
should be here in a few days.
As you can see there are a pile of wires and stuff all over the top of
the engine, but at least every thing is contained on top of the engine.
I made these pictures small for the band width challenged. If any one
would like more detailed ( larger size let me know and I will send them
back channel)
I purchased the engine from Jerry Olenik of Green Sky Adventures in
Hawthorne Fl. I cannot stress enough how well he has treated me. I am
not by nature and inclination to be mechanically inclined. In fact if I
get grease on my hands I count the whole day as a failure. He took the
time to answer any and all of my questions to guide me through a very
traumatic experience. :-) Jerry has all the parts and modifications
needed to mount one of these engines on a Kolb as well as worked out all
the quirks and little things that you need for the installation. If any
of you decide to go four stroke, you could not do better than Green Sky.
I do think that there should be a "HKS for Dummies" manual since both
Jerry and HKS only hit the high spots and leave some of the other stuff
unexplained. However Jerry never complained when I called for an
explanation of where this or that goes.
The great flying weather has of course departed for regions a lot
further south. ( Yes Beauford, my heart bleeds for you, imagine having
to endure 65 degree weather, how terrible) Perhaps it will get warm
enough to get a few tests in to see the difference between this one and
a 503. I of course will have to do a weight and balance first, but I
hope to have it in the air soon.
Larry C
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
At 08:11 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote:
>...Brother Davis...
>One thing: You did not mention your height... Am considering hiring
>a private contractor with appropriate equipment to sling-load me in
>and out of the Fly, despite the fact that I skip breakfast and
>scrupulously empty my pockets of car-keys, gas station receipts,
>excess change, ball-point pens, the spare Arturo Fuente and the
>little remove-before-flight tag from the BRS prior to attempting the
>dreaded FireFly mount or dismount. Negotiating one's feet safely
>around the windshield, whilst simultaneously suspending one's flabby
>butt in midair over the seat with both hands on the siderails and a
>deeply veined purple face, is a real crowd-pleaser.... Upon
>landing, I have been known to feign illness, or a drunken stupor,
>and sit quietly in place in the airplane until the onlookers lost
>interest and melted away before attempting it. I don't know how
>long your legs are, but I recommend you consider an enlarged
>windshield cut-out on the right side. Saves public humiliation....
>until one returns home, anyway...
>
>
>bucolic beauford
I'm thinking you need the "Geezer Lift Chair" option for you Firefly.
http://www.spinlife.com/Uplift-Technologies-UPEASY-Power-Uplift-Seat-Assists/spec.cfm?productID=73225
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
With the Landshorter VG's installed on my Firestar as recommended by Landshorter,
the stall is more abrubt than without the VG's. Without the VG's there is
no classic stall with a break, but more of a mush that started at 40 mph indicated
airspeed with my Firestar. Slow flight below 40 mph was not possible, and
final needed to be flown at 50-55 mph (power off) to avoid a hard landing during
the flare.
After VG installation, control was rock solid and responsive right down to the
stall, which takes place at about 30 mph wings level unaccelerated. There is
no pre-stall buffet, and the break is distinct, much like that of a sailplane
with laminar flow wing. With VG's, final can be flown as low as 40 mph power
off with sufficient energy to flare without a hard landing.
There is nothing dangerous or radical about the stall with VG's, but it not as
forgiving as without VG's. My recommendation for a low time pilot new to Kolbs
is to get some hours on your new plane without VG's, and then install them after
reaching a reasonable level of proficiency.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218396#218396
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
John,
Thanks for the advice.
I do use the entire runway each time I fly and I don't plan on turning back unless
I have plenty of altitude say 700 + and no other options. Looking at the end
of runway 23 or 27 there are no good options that I would consider safe to
try to land in. Fairly dense tall trees, houses and large power lines! 27 is
3600 feet and 23 is 6000 so I never use 27/9.
Each time I make my departure I am constantly observing the runway left over ahead
of me and any other option to the left and right of me and thinking what
would I do if the engine quit now. I do the same when I am away from the airport
flying over the fields and trees.
I know making that turn under the stress of losing the engine will not be the same
as practicing the turn at altitude.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218397#218397
Message 28
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Larry,
Did you trade in a used engine for the HKS engine or is this a new plane?
It looks nice!
I would like a 4 cycle at some point.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218398#218398
Message 29
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Yes, I traded in a 447 that originally came with the plane when I bought
it in 1997. Without a muffler he gave me 800.00 for the engine. This is
my third engine on the Firestar, and I have 447 hours on the plane. I
sold the 503 to another pilot in Wash.
Another point of interest regarding the change is that I had an EIS
model 2000 which is a two stroke model. I sent it in to Grand Rapids
Tech and they changed it to a four stroke model and supplied the
CHT,EGT, Oil temps as well as the oil PSI for a very reasonable price.
I really liked the 503 and didn't really make the change because I was
afraid that it would fail. It was the fuel consumption that got me. Four
gallons an hour at 64 mph is just not enough to go anywhere, and where I
live every where is a long way off. I made the trip to Texas by putting
an extra 10 gallons of gas in the back seat, but had no room for much
else. If you pencil it out, you will save enough money with the fuel
savings and the rebuild (300 hours if you follow Rotax recommendations)
to more than pay for the HKS. Rebuild on the HKS is 1000 hours. I should
be too feeble to either pass my BFR or get into the plane even with a
"Geezer lift", before it needs the rebuild.
Larry C
----- Original Message -----
From: grantr
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS 700 E
<grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
Larry,
Did you trade in a used engine for the HKS engine or is this a new
plane?
It looks nice!
I would like a 4 cycle at some point.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218398#218398
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-----
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12/8/2008 6:16 PM
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