Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:59 AM - Re: HKS 700 E (icrashrc)
2. 02:29 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (pj.ladd)
3. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Dana Hague)
4. 04:32 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Jean PILLAUDIN)
5. 05:59 AM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Thom Riddle)
6. 06:07 AM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Thom Riddle)
7. 06:08 AM - Re: HKS 700 E (Richard Girard)
8. 06:24 AM - Re: HKS 700 E (Larry Cottrell)
9. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (John Hauck)
10. 06:44 AM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Thom Riddle)
11. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (robert bean)
12. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (John Hauck)
13. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (John Hauck)
14. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (robert bean)
15. 07:26 AM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Thom Riddle)
16. 08:16 AM - Beauford is the expert on VG's ! (Bill Vincent)
17. 08:21 AM - Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! (John Hauck)
18. 09:03 AM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Arksey@aol.com)
19. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (John Hauck)
20. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Dana Hague)
21. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Dana Hague)
22. 10:57 AM - Re: HKS 700 E (Mnflyer)
23. 11:20 AM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Thom Riddle)
24. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (John Hauck)
25. 12:01 PM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Thom Riddle)
26. 12:42 PM - Re: HKS 700 E (HShack@aol.com)
27. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (HShack@aol.com)
28. 12:58 PM - Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! (HShack@aol.com)
29. 01:16 PM - Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (grantr)
30. 01:19 PM - The turn-back following engine failure article (grantr)
31. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? (Dana Hague)
32. 02:51 PM - Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! (beauford T)
33. 03:16 PM - Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! (John Hauck)
34. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? ()
35. 04:59 PM - Re: The turn-back following engine failure article (robert bean)
36. 05:09 PM - Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! ()
37. 05:39 PM - Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! (russ kinne)
38. 07:09 PM - Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! (beauford T)
Message 1
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Larry,
If you want to send me the high res pictures I'll be happy to make them available
to all on my site. Just forward them to icrashrc@aol.com and i'll post a link
for all.
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218416#218416
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Turning back to the runway kills lot of good folks.>>
Hi John,
One Christmas Day many years ago when I had been learning to glide for about
a couple of months this happened.
A friend who joined the club at the same time that I did strapped into our
old tandem seat Slingsby trainer. The instructor was in the back and they
were practicing `cable breaks`.
For those with no gliding experience. We were pulled into the air by an old
Allard sports car. The piano wire launch cable broke about every 4th
launch. Learning `cable breaks` was the gliding equivalent of `engine
failure`in the powered flying world.
The last thing anyone heard was the instructor sasying "OK Now Safety above
everything`. The Allard pulled away and the glider trundled down the runway
and into the air. At around 500 feet the instructor pulled the bung and
detached the cable to simulate a cable break. At that point the glider had a
mile of runway ahead and cracking the brakes and landing straight ahead was
the obvious drill. To the surprise of the watchers on the ground, the glider
turned back through 180 degrees. Even then it would have been OK. He could
have landed downwind with no trouble BUT.. when he got abreast of the launch
point he tried to turn back into wind. By this time he was low and was
afraid to put his wing down so he banked slightly and put in a bootful of
rudder, skidded into the turn and of course the inside wing stalled, the
plane dropped into an incipient spin for about 50 feet and dived straight
into the tarmac.
The pupil was killed outright. The instructor lingered a couple of days and
then died.
No one knows what happened. Presumably the pupil froze on the controls and
the instructor couldn`t over ride him.
Pat
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 05:27 AM 12/9/2008, pj.ladd wrote:
>...To the surprise of the watchers on the ground, the glider turned back
>through 180 degrees....
>No one knows what happened. Presumably the pupil froze on the controls and
>the instructor couldn`t over ride him.
Same thing happened to a woman I knew, the mother of an old
girlfriend. She ran the flight school and was flying with a student, a
male doctor. Rope broke just after takeoff, he panicked and wouldn't let
go of the controls, tried to turn back. As he was a lot stronger than her
all she could do was go along for the ride. They both survived the crash,
with injuries, but afterwards he claimed that SHE tried to turn back, and
sued her for everything she had. Not being able to afford a lawyer as good
as he could hire with his doctor's income, she lost the business... last I
heard she was flying right seat for some 2-bit commuter line.
-Dana
do not archive
--
Can televangelists do more than lay people???
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Kolbers,
The time to turn an airplane depends primarily on the bank angle of the turn and
the airspeed being flown. It is a mathematical relationship that is a function
of the tangent of the angle of bank. Attached is an image of a spreadsheet
table I put together to show this relationship at various airspeeds and bank angles.
The first table shows the turn radius (not diameter) in feet for a given
bank angle and airspeed.
The second table uses this data to derive the time in seconds to make a turn of
270 degrees. I used 270 degrees because to get back to the runway you have to
turn 180 to get the right heading but then you are two radii away from the runway
so then you have to keep turning, say another 45 degrees then turn back 45
degrees to get re-aligned with the runway, for a total of 270 degrees of turning.
The third table takes the second tables data and ASSUMING a 600 FPM descent rate,
calculates the loss of altitude in the 270 degree turn.
NOTE: This is not a recommendation for or against turning back to the runway at
any time. It is simply showing the mathematical relationship amongst bank angle,
true airspeed, time to turn and altitude lost in doing so.
--------
Thom Riddle
CFI-SP
Power Plant Mechanic
N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist.
George Carlin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218444#218444
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/turnback_182.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
I did not use very steep bank angles in the previous table posted so I am posting
another with steeper bank angles, for your amusement and perhaps amazement.
--------
Thom Riddle
CFI-SP
Power Plant Mechanic
N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist.
George Carlin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218446#218446
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/steepturnback_329.jpg
Message 7
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Larry, I have an HKS on my trike and I love it, especially the fuel
consumption. Another is the noise level, or rather the lack or it.I strongly
suggest you review section 5 of the Installation Manual with respect to
mounting the oil tank and the caution about the oil cooler mounting.
Rick
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:12 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell@fmtcblue.com>wrote:
> Guys, and Cristal,
> I have completed the installation of a HKS 700 E to my Firestar II. Well
> actually I still have to hook up the tach and install two switches for the
> mags and add oil before I can fire it up. I am also waiting on a quick
> connect oil drain valve to put on the bottom of the oil tank. It should be
> here in a few days.
>
>
> As you can see there are a pile of wires and stuff all over the top of the
> engine, but at least every thing is contained on top of the engine. I made
> these pictures small for the band width challenged. If any one would like
> more detailed ( larger size let me know and I will send them back channel)
>
> I purchased the engine from Jerry Olenik of Green Sky Adventures in
> Hawthorne Fl. I cannot stress enough how well he has treated me. I am not by
> nature and inclination to be mechanically inclined. In fact if I get grease
> on my hands I count the whole day as a failure. He took the time to answer
> any and all of my questions to guide me through a very traumatic experience.
> :-) Jerry has all the parts and modifications needed to mount one of these
> engines on a Kolb as well as worked out all the quirks and little things
> that you need for the installation. If any of you decide to go four
> stroke, you could not do better than Green Sky. I do think that there should
> be a "HKS for Dummies" manual since both Jerry and HKS only hit the high
> spots and leave some of the other stuff unexplained. However Jerry never
> complained when I called for an explanation of where this or that goes.
>
> The great flying weather has of course departed for regions a lot further
> south. ( Yes Beauford, my heart bleeds for you, imagine having to endure 65
> degree weather, how terrible) Perhaps it will get warm enough to get a few
> tests in to see the difference between this one and a 503. I of course will
> have to do a weight and balance first, but I hope to have it in the air
> soon.
>
> Larry C
>
>
Message 8
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----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS 700 E
Larry, I have an HKS on my trike and I love it, especially the fuel
consumption. Another is the noise level, or rather the lack or it.
I strongly suggest you review section 5 of the Installation Manual
with respect to mounting the oil tank and the caution about the oil
cooler mounting.
Rick
Actually I already did and asked Jerry about whether or not to mount
the oil tank above the cooler. He said it was not necessary. I am not
real sure how you could accomplish such a feat with the Firestar?
Larry
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
> I did not use very steep bank angles in the previous table posted so I am
> posting another with steeper bank angles, for your amusement and perhaps
> amazement.
> Thom Riddle
Thom:
Are these Kolb numbers, or a generalization?
I'm not surprised at the results of steep bank angles and higher airspeeds.
I believe I mentioned in a previous email, agressive turns take less time
and use less altitude. The problem with that maneuver is attaining and
maintaining the increased airspeed at low altitudes, and how hard can I
crank it around, at very low altitudes, without stalling.
If I get a chance to fly today, I will practice some of this stuff at
altitude to see how it works out.
john h
mkIII
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
John H,
The first two tables are mathematical relationships that are independent of the
airplane being flown. This means that the turn radius and time to turn are the
same for any airplane at these bank angle and airspeed combinations. Ever notice
how big a radius it takes to turn a jet fighter flying at high speed? It
takes many miles to turn around at high speed, even in a near 90 degree bank angle.
Ever wonder why gyroplanes (and helicopters for that mater) can turn on
a dime? Because of their very low speed capability. At higher speeds they cannot
turn so quickly or in such short distances. It is pure math.
The third table, ASSUMES a 600 FPM descent rate. This table depends upon that assumption.
If your airplane descends at a different rate then the altitude loss
numbers will differ linearly. In other words if your airplane descends at say
450 FPM then the altitude loss will be 3/4 of those in the table shown for a
600 FPM descent rate.
--------
Thom Riddle
CFI-SP
Power Plant Mechanic
N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist.
George Carlin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218459#218459
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
My Aeronca chief, when experimenting this series of turns, would eat
up a lot of energy in a hurry.
It wasn't very good without the prop helping it around. Straight
ahead glide wasn't too bad.
The MkIII, to my pleasant surprise, seems much happier in a steep
turn. I gave demo rides
this past summer to a couple of young lads and did steep bank turns
to show what a small circle we could turn.
The extra passenger load made little difference. Pretty amazing.
BB
On 9, Dec 2008, at 9:24 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
>> I did not use very steep bank angles in the previous table posted
>> so I am posting another with steeper bank angles, for your
>> amusement and perhaps amazement.
>
>> Thom Riddle
>
>
> Thom:
>
> Are these Kolb numbers, or a generalization?
>
> I'm not surprised at the results of steep bank angles and higher
> airspeeds. I believe I mentioned in a previous email, agressive
> turns take less time and use less altitude. The problem with that
> maneuver is attaining and maintaining the increased airspeed at low
> altitudes, and how hard can I crank it around, at very low
> altitudes, without stalling.
>
> If I get a chance to fly today, I will practice some of this stuff
> at altitude to see how it works out.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Ever wonder why gyroplanes (and helicopters for that mater) can turn on a
dime? Because of their very low speed capability. At higher speeds they
cannot turn so quickly or in such short distances. It is pure math.
> Thom Riddle
Thom:
Helicopters are much more adept at making 180s than fixed wing. The primary
reason, rotary wing aircraft build rotor rpm in turns. The tighter the
turn, the more rotor rpm. Sometimes it took quite a bit of collective to
prevent overspeed and maintain rotor rpm in the green. Very low speeds
during autorotation will prove hazardous to your health in a helicoper. The
Army helicopters I flew were amazingly agile. They handled quick turns and
steep bank angles quite well.
john h
mkIII
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
> The MkIII, to my pleasant surprise, seems much happier in a steep turn.
> I gave demo rides
> this past summer to a couple of young lads and did steep bank turns to
> show what a small circle we could turn.
> The extra passenger load made little difference. Pretty amazing.
> BB
Bob B:
You are quite right.
It took a pretty good sized passenger in the the factory MKIII to get into
an accelerated stall during demonstrations. That, of course, was in the
clean configuration, no flaps.
During a demo in my mkIII a few years ago at Lakeland, I blanked out the
elevators during a hard pull up with full flaps. Would not do it clean, but
with full flaps, the elevators went away. This caused me to be a lot mor
cautious during steep approaches and landings with full flaps.
john h
mkIII
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
(those demo turns were WITH power) :)
BB
On 9, Dec 2008, at 9:49 AM, robert bean wrote:
>
> My Aeronca chief, when experimenting this series of turns, would
> eat up a lot of energy in a hurry.
> It wasn't very good without the prop helping it around. Straight
> ahead glide wasn't too bad.
>
> The MkIII, to my pleasant surprise, seems much happier in a steep
> turn. I gave demo rides
> this past summer to a couple of young lads and did steep bank turns
> to show what a small circle we could turn.
> The extra passenger load made little difference. Pretty amazing.
> BB
>
> On 9, Dec 2008, at 9:24 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I did not use very steep bank angles in the previous table posted
>>> so I am posting another with steeper bank angles, for your
>>> amusement and perhaps amazement.
>>
>>> Thom Riddle
>>
>>
>>
>> Thom:
>>
>> Are these Kolb numbers, or a generalization?
>>
>> I'm not surprised at the results of steep bank angles and higher
>> airspeeds. I believe I mentioned in a previous email, agressive
>> turns take less time and use less altitude. The problem with that
>> maneuver is attaining and maintaining the increased airspeed at
>> low altitudes, and how hard can I crank it around, at very low
>> altitudes, without stalling.
>>
>> If I get a chance to fly today, I will practice some of this stuff
>> at altitude to see how it works out.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
John H,
You bring up a good point. The tables I posted assume 1 G flight because the original
question was about turning back with engine out. In a descending turn without
power or attempt to hold altitude it is easy enough to maintain 1 G or
less.
What gets a lot of airplane pilots in trouble is pulling back on the stick during
a power out descending turn in the vain hope that some magic will be performed.
The vast majority of CFIs and the FAA pubs teach that Gs increase in high
banked turns. Of course this is true if you are maintaining altitude. In a power
out situation any attempt to maintain altitude in an airplane will eventually
result in exceeding the critical angle of attack and a stall. The trick to
quick descending power out turns in an airplane is maintaining 1 G or less loading.
If this is done you can get turned around pretty quickly at slow speeds.
Load it up with back stick and you are asking for a stall/spin fatality.
--------
Thom Riddle
CFI-SP
Power Plant Mechanic
N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist.
George Carlin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218470#218470
Message 16
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| Subject: | Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
Hi gang....These pictures rest my case...;-)
Bill Vincent
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
Gang:
No wonder Beauford is so light headed.
john h
mkIII
Hi gang....These pictures rest my case...;-)
Bill Vincent
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Hi gang,
I learned to fly in a J-3 back in 1946, we were taught to go straight
ahead if we had engine failure on take off...later on i had a engine fail on
takeoff in a J-3, I never thought about trying to turn around to the runway which
was a farm field. I went about straight ahead into a pasture and the plane
was ok, I was lucky to have that field there, I had veered slightly to the
right on take off because there was a woods straight ahead, good thing i did.
You need to remember stall speeds go up in turns. I wonder how many on
this list have made a 180 on take off after losing a engine and survived and
if so from what altitude? I also wonder how many have stalled and crashed or
killed themselves trying it? As for me if I lose a engine on my firestar on
take off I will go straight ahead no matter what unless i have 6 to 7 hundred
feet. Hope this info saves someone's life....
do not archive
jim swan FS ll 503
michigan
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Hi Jim S:
Good to hear you are still alive and kicking in the cold country, or have y
ou migrated with the other snow bird from Michigan to Florida?
Your IP probably knew what he was talking about. Not much has changed from
then to now. Gravity is still in charge.
john h
mkIII-Too windy to fly today, especially after a 2.5 month lay off. 67F
I learned to fly in a J-3 back in 1946, we were taught to go straight
ahead
jim swan FS ll 503
michigan
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 09:43 AM 12/9/2008, Thom Riddle wrote:
>The third table, ASSUMES a 600 FPM descent rate. This table depends upon
>that assumption. If your airplane descends at a different rate then the
>altitude loss numbers will differ linearly. In other words if your
>airplane descends at say 450 FPM then the altitude loss will be 3/4 of
>those in the table shown for a 600 FPM descent rate.
Without checking the numbers, it looks right. However, I question the
assumption of a constant 600fpm descent rate. In a steep turn, the descent
rate will increase quite a bit.
Of course, there's also reaction time, and time to push the nose down, roll
into the turn, roll back out, and flare, which all must be factored into
the real world scenario.
-Dana
--
The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 09:43 AM 12/9/2008, Thom Riddle wrote:
>The third table, ASSUMES a 600 FPM descent rate. This table depends upon
>that assumption. If your airplane descends at a different rate then the
>altitude loss numbers will differ linearly. In other words if your
>airplane descends at say 450 FPM then the altitude loss will be 3/4 of
>those in the table shown for a 600 FPM descent rate.
Without checking the numbers, it looks right. However, I question the
assumption of a constant 600fpm descent rate. In a steep turn, the descent
rate will increase quite a bit.
Of course, there's also reaction time, and time to push the nose down, roll
into the turn, roll back out, and flare, which all must be factored into
the real world scenario.
-Dana
--
The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
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Hi Larry I think your going to like the HKS I know I really really like mine, have
300+ hrs on it in the Kitfox and per my calculations its paid for vs the 582
I replaced, the cost of operation is 1/2 the cost vs the 582.
--------
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218509#218509
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Stall speed vs bank angle is widely misunderstood. Many CFIs regurgitate what they've
been taught and what they've read in FAA publications without fully understanding
it. What most have been taught is that "Stall speed increases with
increased bank angle." What they are not taught, but is true nonetheless, is that
this statement is true ONLY if there is an increase in G loading, which is
the case if you are trying to maintain altitude and airspeed. If you maintain
1 G loading when banking steeply(by descending at the proper rate), the stall
speed does not increase. The only way to maintain 1 G load while banking steeply
and turning is by descending while turning.
The "Stall speed increases with increased bank angle." adage probably came about
as an over simplification because it is easier to teach and is a good idea as
a point of safety when teaching new students. Unfortunately, that is as far
as most pilots, CFIs included, ever dig into the physics.
If you are comfortable with experimenting, consider sometime climbing to an altitude
of at least 2,500' AGL, do clearing turns then reduce the power to idle,
put the nose down and hold your normal approach speed. and start banking to
your favorite side, BEING SURE TO HOLD YOUR NORMAL APPROACH SPEED THROUGHOUT this
maneuver, continue increasing the bank angle until your maximum comfort level
and notice how quickly you are turning. You should also notice three other
things. 1) You are NOT experiencing higher than 1 G loading, like you would at
high bank angles with power and maintaining altitude. 2) You are not stalling.
3) Your descent rate and turning rate increase as you increase the bank angle
while holding a constant airspeed.
While descending, gently roll to wings level attitude with coordinating rudder
maintaining your normal approach speed (do this without increasing G load). Complete
this maneuver by no lower than 1,500' AGL because that is the minimum legal
altitude for maneuvering flight.
The most important thing to get from this is that the increased G loading from
maintaining airspeed AND ALTITUDE while increasing bank angle is responsible for
the increased stall speed. Maintain 1 G load at your normal approach speed
by descending and you can bank quite steeply without increasing the stall speed.
If you start to pull back on the stick while you are steeply banked you will
be increasing the G loading which WILL result in a higher stall speed.
PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT recommending you do this anywhere near the ground or in a
real engine out event. I'm merely trying to clear up a common misunderstanding
about the relationship between bank angle and increasing stall speed.
I fully expect to get an argument so go ahead and flame away.
--------
Thom Riddle
CFI-SP
Power Plant Mechanic
N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist.
George Carlin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218511#218511
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
> PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT recommending you do this anywhere near the ground
or in a real engine out event. I'm merely trying to clear up a common
misunderstanding about the relationship between bank angle and increasing
stall speed.
>
> I fully expect to get an argument so go ahead and flame away.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
Thom:
Not from me. I'm too tired. ;-)
Didn't know anyone was disagreeing with you.
I believe we went through this not too long ago. Tom Kuffle was part of
that discussion, IIRC.
I've learned through the years I can get away with a lot of stuff in a Kolb
if I keep my airspeed above stall speed. It is a terrific little airplane.
Don't think I would try and fly some of the other light aircraft like I do
my Kolbs.
john h
mkIII - Waiting for the thunderstorms to hit.
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Well, John. I don't believe anyone has disagreed with me yet, but you never know
what "expert" might be lurking hereabouts that wants to pick a fight. It has
been known to happen. If they do, I won't bite.
I should probably not have said anything on this but sometimes I just have to,
especially when it is cold and raining outside, like right now. It was down to
11 F here yesterday but in the low 40s today. Feels like spring in this part
of the country.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
CFI-SP
Power Plant Mechanic
N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist.
George Carlin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218515#218515
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I am soooo jealous!!
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
do not archive
In a message dated 12/8/2008 9:14:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lcottrell@fmtcblue.com writes:
I have completed the installation of a HKS 700 E to my Firestar II
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| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
What if you didn't put on quite so many of the little rascals?
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
do not archive
In a message dated 12/8/2008 10:34:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
up_country@hotmail.com writes:
With the Landshorter VG's installed on my Firestar as recommended by
Landshorter, the stall is more abrubt than without the VG's.
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
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| Subject: | Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
That's it! I pass my sceptor to Beauford.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 12/9/2008 11:17:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
emailbill@chartermi.net writes:
Hi gang....These pictures rest my case...;-)
Bill Vincent
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
I think the main reason the turn back is not encouraged is "human error"
It is a lot harder to get in trouble (stall/spin) if you keep gliding straight.
In the stress of turning back to soon or low there is a very high probability that
a pilot will attempt to stretch the glide by adding back pressure and thus
entering a stall/ spin.
If something doesn't feel quite right apply forward stick!
Here is a great article covering the turnback:
http://www.auf.asn.au/magazine/turnback.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218529#218529
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| Subject: | The turn-back following engine failure article |
http://www.auf.asn.au/magazine/turnback.html
Just reposting the article for the list.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218530#218530
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
At 02:20 PM 12/9/2008, Thom Riddle wrote:
>
>Stall speed vs bank angle is widely misunderstood. Many CFIs regurgitate
>what they've been taught and what they've read in FAA publications without
>fully understanding it. What most have been taught is that "Stall speed
>increases with increased bank angle." What they are not taught, but is
>true nonetheless, is that this statement is true ONLY if there is an
>increase in G loading, which is the case if you are trying to maintain
>altitude and airspeed. If you maintain 1 G loading when banking steeply(by
>descending at the proper rate), the stall speed does not increase. The
>only way to maintain 1 G load while banking steeply and turning is by
>descending while turning.
You are correct; stall speed increases with bank angle in a level
coordinated turn. BUT... If you maintain 1g in a coordinated banked turn,
then the aircraft must accelerate downwards at an acceleration
corresponding to the 1 minus the cosine of the bank angle times 1G. In the
case of the 60 banked turn, you either pull 2g's or you pull 1g and
accelerate down at 1/2g... so your vertical speed increases by 16 fps (960
fpm) every second. So, to using an airspeed of 50 mph and 60 bank,
according to the chart you posted earlier it takes 6 seconds... but at the
end of those 6 seconds your rate of descent has increased to 5760 fpm and
you've lost an additional 288' of altitude.
-Dana
--
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is
weird, people take prozac to make it normal.
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| Subject: | Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
...i cannot locate the VG plans, Howard... no joke... have searched
extensively... besides, you cannot give me your sceptor...have already
had a dose...got it from my girlfriend in high school 51 years ago...
doc tells me most people cannot get it twice...
Anyway, strongly recommend you look into the new vaccine once you get
over your current problem...recommend you look for someone else to pass
it along to...talk to Hauck...he hasn't had VG yet... ...sure wish i
knew where i put those plans... think they were filed with the marriage
certificate someplace... can't find that either... and by the way, if
anyone actually runs across Brother John, tell him my Bride sez the
problem is not light headedness... but heavy buttness... and the VG's
tear up skivvies something terrible... tried that already...
Was a miserable day today at Airport Manatee... partly cloudy...breeze
12 from the south... only made it to 76 this afternoon... can you
believe, had to actually wear a long sleeved shirt to fly the kleenex
machine... only able to shoot landings for a couple of hours before
prostate failure, anyway... sad... The good news is no VG's went
through the IVO today.. and the machine appears to be reusable..
Still looking...
Yr hmbl svt, beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HShack@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Beauford is the expert on VG's !
That's it! I pass my sceptor to Beauford.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 12/9/2008 11:17:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
emailbill@chartermi.net writes:
Hi gang....These pictures rest my case...;-)
Bill Vincent
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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| Subject: | Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
Beauford:
I don't know about that. First tour in VN my medic took great delight in g
iving me some daily penicillin shots, in the butt, for something like VG.
Said if I stayed out of the village I wouldn't have to take the shots.
Never had to take them again, so.....you may be right. Once you get'em you
become immune.
I didn't get to fly today. Weather was kinda cruddy and very windy.
Went over to Gantt International Airport anyhow. Decided to drag the strip
and smooth out the cow pies. While I was down by the hanger I checked out
my bird. Darned rat has been back in it while I was on my trip. He ate t
he right shoulder harness. Cut'em right off the bulkhead. Also got the ri
ght seatbelt. Looks like it went through a buzz saw. While he was at it,
he or she checked out a couple wires. Cut the 12vdc wires to my ANR headse
t and my Chillie Vest. That is all I could find damaged. Hopefully, he di
dn't get back in places and cut wires and hydraulic brake lines like he did
a couple years ago.
Time to call my friendly Falcon Insurance Agent and see what to do next. ;
-(
john h
mkIII
Anyway, strongly recommend you look into the new vaccine once you get ov
er your current problem...recommend you look for someone else to pass it al
ong to...talk to Hauck...he hasn't had VG yet...
beauford
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn? |
Apparently, this 180 turn is a matter of interest to many with differing opinions.
Certainly, most of what has been written here is true and is appreciated.
Many of us pilots fly differently and were taught in a variety of ways. I believe
the important point of all of this discussion is for the individual pilot
to know his limits and fly within them. Learning to do an efficient and safe
180 degree turn is worth the time, effort and gas, in my opinion. The most
efficient procedure may seem radical, but can be done safely if it is practiced
at altitude on a regular basis. Amelia Reid taught me the science of the turn
(some on line may have heard of her.....she was a very good instructor).
Back to the point. A pilot who practices and knows his ability should base his
decisions on what he can do and not what some say is possible. In a Cessna 150
my first tries resulted in altitude losses of up to 600 ft. I lost an engine
at 35 feet in a Kasperwing and had to do a 180 to
a!
void obstacles. My effort was about 10 degrees short and bent a nose wheel. Thank
goodness the Kasper is a slow flying airplane.
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: The turn-back following engine failure article |
fuel in the bowser?
let us not dwell upon that condition.....
BB
On 9, Dec 2008, at 4:19 PM, grantr wrote:
> <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
>
> http://www.auf.asn.au/magazine/turnback.html
>
> Just reposting the article for the list.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218530#218530
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
Beauford I was wondering where you flew out of. I haven't flown in there
in years and was looking at a ultra light for sale. If the VG's on the
horz.stab don't have my tail dragging to much I'll drop you a line and
fly up there and meet up.
From: beauford T
Sent: 2008-12-09 17:51
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Beauford is the expert on VG's !
...i cannot locate the VG plans, Howard... no joke... have searched
extensively... besides, you cannot give me your sceptor...have already
had a dose...got it from my girlfriend in high school 51 years ago...
doc tells me most people cannot get it twice...
Anyway, strongly recommend you look into the new vaccine once you get
over your current problem...recommend you look for someone else to pass
it along to...talk to Hauck...he hasn't had VG yet... ...sure wish i
knew where i put those plans... think they were filed with the marriage
certificate someplace... can't find that either... and by the way, if
anyone actually runs across Brother John, tell him my Bride sez the
problem is not light headedness... but heavy buttness... and the VG's
tear up skivvies something terrible... tried that already...
Was a miserable day today at Airport Manatee... partly cloudy...breeze
12 from the south... only made it to 76 this afternoon... can you
believe, had to actually wear a long sleeved shirt to fly the kleenex
machine... only able to shoot landings for a couple of hours before
prostate failure, anyway... sad... The good news is no VG's went
through the IVO today.. and the machine appears to be reusable..
Still looking...
Yr hmbl svt, beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HShack@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Beauford is the expert on VG's !
That's it! I pass my sceptor to Beauford.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 12/9/2008 11:17:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
emailbill@chartermi.net writes:
Hi gang....These pictures rest my case...;-)
Bill Vincent
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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| Subject: | Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
Beauford!
I feel for you thin - blooded southern fliers -- temp 76, wind 12??
-- we got (here in CT) closer to wind 76, temp 12!
Only vaccine I've found that helps is black rhum.
Count yer blessings -- and
do not archive
On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:51 PM, beauford T wrote:
> ...i cannot locate the VG plans, Howard... no joke... have searched
> extensively... besides, you cannot give me your sceptor...have
> already had a dose...got it from my girlfriend in high school 51
> years ago... doc tells me most people cannot get it twice...
>
> Anyway, strongly recommend you look into the new vaccine once you
> get over your current problem...recommend you look for someone else
> to pass it along to...talk to Hauck...he hasn't had VG
> yet... ...sure wish i knew where i put those plans... think they
> were filed with the marriage certificate someplace... can't find
> that either... and by the way, if anyone actually runs across
> Brother John, tell him my Bride sez the problem is not light
> headedness... but heavy buttness... and the VG's tear up skivvies
> something terrible... tried that already...
>
> Was a miserable day today at Airport Manatee... partly
> cloudy...breeze 12 from the south... only made it to 76 this
> afternoon... can you believe, had to actually wear a long sleeved
> shirt to fly the kleenex machine... only able to shoot landings for
> a couple of hours before prostate failure, anyway... sad... The
> good news is no VG's went through the IVO today.. and the machine
> appears to be reusable..
>
> Still looking...
>
> Yr hmbl svt, beauford
> FF-076
> Brandon, FL
> Do not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: HShack@aol.com
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Beauford is the expert on VG's !
>
> That's it! I pass my sceptor to Beauford.
>
> Howard Shackleford
> FS II
> SC
>
> In a message dated 12/9/2008 11:17:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> emailbill@chartermi.net writes:
> Hi gang....These pictures rest my case...;-)
> Bill Vincent
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite
> scom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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| Subject: | Re: Beauford is the expert on VG's ! |
Sir:
gimme a shout off list and we will get together,,,
b.
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: smlplanet@msn.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Beauford is the expert on VG's !
Beauford I was wondering where you flew out of. I haven't flown in
there in years and was looking at a ultra light for sale. If the VG's on
the horz.stab don't have my tail dragging to much I'll drop you a line
and fly up there and meet up.
From: beauford T
Sent: 2008-12-09 17:51
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Beauford is the expert on VG's !
...i cannot locate the VG plans, Howard... no joke... have searched
extensively... besides, you cannot give me your sceptor...have already
had a dose...got it from my girlfriend in high school 51 years ago...
doc tells me most people cannot get it twice...
Anyway, strongly recommend you look into the new vaccine once you get
over your current problem...recommend you look for someone else to pass
it along to...talk to Hauck...he hasn't had VG yet... ...sure wish i
knew where i put those plans... think they were filed with the marriage
certificate someplace... can't find that either... and by the way, if
anyone actually runs across Brother John, tell him my Bride sez the
problem is not light headedness... but heavy buttness... and the VG's
tear up skivvies something terrible... tried that already...
Was a miserable day today at Airport Manatee... partly cloudy...breeze
12 from the south... only made it to 76 this afternoon... can you
believe, had to actually wear a long sleeved shirt to fly the kleenex
machine... only able to shoot landings for a couple of hours before
prostate failure, anyway... sad... The good news is no VG's went
through the IVO today.. and the machine appears to be reusable..
Still looking...
Yr hmbl svt, beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HShack@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Beauford is the expert on VG's !
That's it! I pass my sceptor to Beauford.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 12/9/2008 11:17:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
emailbill@chartermi.net writes:
Hi gang....These pictures rest my case...;-)
Bill Vincent
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
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