Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:21 AM - Re: Re: choke or primer (zeprep251@aol.com)
2. 04:43 AM - 912 enrichers (Ted Cowan)
3. 05:39 AM - Re: 912 enrichers ()
4. 09:00 AM - Re: VG affect on stall (JetPilot)
5. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (John Hauck)
6. 10:04 AM - Re: VG affect on stall (JetPilot)
7. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (John Hauck)
8. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (Dana Hague)
9. 02:42 PM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (John Hauck)
10. 03:39 PM - Re: VG affect on stall (JetPilot)
11. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (John Hauck)
12. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (John Hauck)
13. 07:15 PM - xtra wingtip mods (icrashrc)
14. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: VG affect on stall (HShack@aol.com)
15. 07:36 PM - Re: xtra wingtip mods (John Hauck)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: choke or primer |
the enrichener works at any engine speed
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Sent: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 6:17 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: choke or primer
?
This discussion of the choke (enrichener) raises an interesting question.?
?
As others have pointed out, the enrichener is sometimes used as a
diagnostic tool, to see if the engine's running lean (or correct it if it
is). However, the enrichener also supposedly is only effective near
idle... so will it have any significant effect at cruise or max throttle??
?
I have a plunger primer and it works great, but I've considered adding a
remote cable to the choke for inflight emergency or diagnostic use... now
I'm not so sure...?
?
-Dana?
--?
?We are sorry, you have reached an imaginary number.?
Please rotate your phone ninety degrees and try again.?
?
?
?
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I may be misunderstanding what John H was saying but my 912 ul 80 hp does
not have enrichers in the carbs. They have full butterly chokes in them. I
know for sure because I looked in there. Butterfly type is way better than
the rubber based enricher valve. I used my enricher valve to save my butt
once. I had icing (I believe it was) and pulled the enricher lever and it
coffed and stumbled and lit it back up. It actually blew the ice off the
jet and away I went. Really sounded bad from the ground according to my
friend down there but I told him it sounded worse when a plane hits the
ground. I have had a recent chance to find out if the plunger style gas
unit works the same in an emergency on a challenger -- it does not keep the
engine running!!!!! Did a really great two point landing. Had to take the
nose wheel out to stop in time but thanks to the fragil nose wheel of a
challenger, it folded just as I thought it would and I stopped in plenty of
time. Limited damage. My Kolb would have stopped in plenty of time. Ted
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912 enrichers |
> I may be misunderstanding what John H was saying but my 912 ul 80 hp does
> not have enrichers in the carbs. They have full butterly chokes in them. I
> know for sure because I looked in there. Butterfly type is way better than
> the rubber based enricher valve.
Ted
Ted:
Check to see if your choke butterfly vavles are connected to your throttle cables.
The Bings on the 912 series engines use a rotary valve system for enrichener, rather
than the plunger valve used by the two stroke Rotax. There are a couple
o ring seals in them that need to be checked periodically. They could possibly
leak if they go bad.
john h
mkIII
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
Grant R,
I have about 140 VG's on my MK III Xtra, from the Center of the wing all the way
to the wingtips, the stall is very gentle, as gentle as any Cessna I have ever
flown. My stall speed was lowered 10 MPH, and the handling of the plane
improved immensely. I have a video posted of stalls, and flow flight with VG's
on my Kolb, You can see it at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjI7-kBptrA
To see how the VG's help keep the Kolb from landing firmly at low landing speeds
watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L508itf3oy8
I use VG's from www.landshorter.com. Making your own VG's will probably help, but they are CRITICAL. If you don't make them the right dimensions they wont work as well as they should. Its important to place the VG's in the EXACT place on the wing to be effective, and the PRECISE angle of the VG's in relation to the airstream is even more important if you want to get the full benefits of VG's.
Just imagine building a wing using the " That looks about right " method, and then
putting the wing of by guessing where it should be, and then wondering why
your plane does not fly well ??? Some people have done this with VG's, and
then reported to the list they are not very effective.... Hmmm, I wonder why
????
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219074#219074
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
the stall is very gentle, as gentle as any Cessna I have ever flown.
>
> Mike
Mike:
Most all Kolbs, without VGs, I have flown, fly much better than any Cessna I
have flown, which is limited to a couple of old tired 152's, it took to get
my Private Ticket in 1990.
In fact, based on my limited experience, Cessnas have a rather sharp stall
compared to the Kolbs' mushie stall characteristics.
Cessnas also lose much more altitude than Kolbs in a spin, and much quicker.
Never spun a Kolb with VGs, and have a couple flights in one FSII equipped
with VGs.
I am neither pro or con VG. However, if I start wearing a flight helmet, I
will mimic Brother Beauford's helmet, complete with appropriate VGs. I may
even go a step further and put them on top and bottom.
john h
mkIII
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
HShack(at)aol.com wrote:
> When I designed & installed my VG's some 7 or 8 yrs. ago, I put 7 on each wing
[these were the aluminum flashing kind]. My stall dropped from 41 to 36.
The stall was still very gentle; in fact it didn't really want to stall.
>
> I added 13 more per wing. Stall dropped another 4 mph, but when she stalled
it was rather violent & scary. I hated the way it felt, so went back to the
original 7 per wing. Happy again.
>
>
If you put VG's on only part of the wing, you only get part of the benefit. Being
that you guessed where your VG's should go, and that you guessed on the design
of your VG's, its no wonder you ended up with some bad characteristics and
scared yourself. If you put anything on the wrong part of a wing, including
VG's, they can go from being a benefit to being dangerous very quickly. I
would not want to be the test pilot on an airplane with poorly place VG's [Shocked]
Here is a video of some guys that put VG's on their airplane the right way, using
precise measurements to get them in the correct place on the wing, and getting
the exact angles of the VG's to the airstream using templates. These guys
also did a lot of work so the rest of us can see the effect VG's have on the
airflow on the wing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQO7SoULc3U&feature=related
The research has already been done over many years. I prefer to use the design
and placement that a lot of aeronautical engineers have developed over the years
than try to guess on VG placement.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219080#219080
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
> The research has already been done over many years. I prefer to use the
> design and placement that a lot of aeronautical engineers have developed
> over the years than try to guess on VG placement.
>
> Mike
Mike:
Looks like we are getting a lot of VG manufacturers out there all over the
world.
Do you believe each one of these VG manufacturers has done the research and
testing to provide precise guidance on where to place their VGs on your
Kolb's wings?
john h
mkIII-Slick wing!
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
At 05:10 PM 12/12/2008, John Hauck wrote:
>Looks like we are getting a lot of VG manufacturers out there all over the
>world.
>
>Do you believe each one of these VG manufacturers has done the research
>and testing to provide precise guidance on where to place their VGs on
>your Kolb's wings?
Well, as long as the _first_ manufacturer did the R&D... everybody else is
probably just copying them...
-Dana (still VG-less in CT)
--
If we wish to "restore" respect for the law, a good start would be to
pass only laws that people will respect.
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
> Well, as long as the _first_ manufacturer did the R&D... everybody else
is
> probably just copying them...
>
> -Dana (still VG-less in CT)
Dana:
Do you think any of those vg manufacturers ever went so far as do testing on
a Kolb wing?
How do we know what precise is, when placing those little buggers on our
wings and under our tails?
I bet if you get right down to the real nitty gritty, you will discover
there is very, very little serious flight or simulated flight testing on any
UL or experiemental homebuilt.
john h
mkIII-Who did his own testing, good and bad.
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
I doubt that any manufacturer did testing on the Kolb wing, but they have on many
other wings. For the type of airplanes we fly, and the speeds we fly at, VG
placement on wings is pretty much universal. In the video below, you see these
guys carefully placing VG's right where they should be, at about 10 % of the
chord of the wing behind the leading edge, and equally spaced at about 1 %
the span of the wing. On my Kolb, I placed my VG's at slightly less than 1 %
of the span because it is desirable to put each pair of VG's in the rib valleys,
all VG's evenly spaced, 2.5 inches spacing between all VG's on my Kolb. Even
more important than the spacing is that VG's be EXACTLY 15 degrees "Nose In
" to the relative wind, that is where they create the most efficient "tornado"
above the wing without adding excessive drag. It is necessary to use a template
to get the correct angle on VG's. The video shows how its done :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQO7SoULc3U&feature=related
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219134#219134
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
> I doubt that any manufacturer did testing on the Kolb wing, but they have
on many other wings.
For the type of airplanes we fly, and the speeds we fly at, VG placement on
wings is pretty much universal. In the video below, you see these guys
carefully placing VG's right where they should be, at about 10 % of the
chord of the wing behind the leading edge, and equally spaced at about 1 %
the span of the wing. On my Kolb, I placed my VG's at slightly less than 1
% of the span because it is desirable to put each pair of VG's in the rib
valleys, all VG's evenly spaced, 2.5 inches spacing between all VG's on my
Kolb. Even more important than the spacing is that VG's be EXACTLY 15
degrees "Nose In " to the relative wind, that is where they create the most
efficient "tornado" above the wing without adding excessive drag. It is
necessary to use a template to get the correct angle on VG's. The video
shows how its done :)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQO7SoULc3U&feature=related
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219134#219134
>
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
Sorry, Gang:
Looks like I fired a blank.
Was thinking about replying and changed my mind.
john h
mkIII
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: VG affect on stall
>
>
> > I doubt that any manufacturer did testing on the Kolb wing, but they
> > have
> on many other wings.
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | xtra wingtip mods |
We've finished modifying our wing to accept fiberglass wingtips. The tips themselves
are also finished and ready for primer. A DAR stopped by and checked over
the wingtip mods as well as the rest of the plane. He had no issues with the
entire inspection and OK'd us to start covering.
http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/wingtip_modifications.htm
We also ran the engine last week. All seems well with the used engine. We'll leave
the engine on until we're finished making the gap seal. Then the whole thing
will be taken apart for paint and fabric. Our instalation is a little different
than stock. I haven't made a engine webpage yet but when i do i'll post a
link.
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219152#219152
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: VG affect on stall |
Mike,unlike you, I put VG's on every rib of my wings. I didn't just stick
them on willy-nilly. I actually picked a spot chord-wise & used a chalk-line.
And, yes, I used a template to accurately place them. I actually did quite
a bit of testing on my FS II, moving the VG's chordwise many times. As it
turns out, my original location proved to be the most effective on MY plane
[my VG's are very different from landshorters].
I shared my design with several hundred pilots, mostly Kolbers. My design
may not be optimal, but for the price, results were very good. Never had
anyone ask for their money back
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
do not archive
In a message dated 12/12/2008 1:05:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
orcabonita@hotmail.com writes:
If you put VG's on only part of the wing, you only get part of the benefit.
Being that you guessed where your VG's should go, and that you guessed on
the design of your VG's, its no wonder you ended up with some bad
characteristics and scared yourself. If you put anything on the wrong part of
a wing,
including VG's, they can go from being a benefit to being dangerous very
quickly. I would not want to be the test pilot on an airplane with poorly place
VG's [Shocked]
Here is a video of some guys that put VG's on their airplane the right way,
using precise measurements to get them in the correct place on the wing, and
getting the exact angles of the VG's to the airstream using templates.
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: xtra wingtip mods |
> We've finished modifying our wing to accept fiberglass wingtips.
> --------
> Scott
Scott/Paul:
Looks good.
I believe you told me what the length of the wing panel was while at the
Homecoming, but I forgot. ;-)
john h
mkIII 31F and cold at hauck's holler.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|