Kolb-List Digest Archive

Sun 12/14/08


Total Messages Posted: 18



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:43 AM - Re: xtra wingtip mods (icrashrc)
     2. 04:46 AM - 912 (Ted Cowan)
     3. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off (pj.ladd)
     4. 10:10 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off (Masqqqqqqq@aol.com)
     5. 10:41 AM - Kolb high thrust line. (poorboy)
     6. 01:45 PM - Fw: UL: Chuck Slusasczyk - CGS Hawk (TheWanderingWench)
     7. 02:01 PM - VG research (The Kuffels)
     8. 02:11 PM - Re: Fw: UL: Chuck Slusasczyk - CGS Hawk (GeoR38@aol.com)
     9. 03:46 PM - Poly Tone paint (Mike Welch)
    10. 03:57 PM - Re: Poly Tone paint (robert bean)
    11. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off (John Hauck)
    12. 04:24 PM - Re: Poly Tone paint (Mike Welch)
    13. 04:30 PM - Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off (Arksey@AOL.COM)
    14. 04:43 PM - Re: fired up (Arksey@aol.com)
    15. 04:45 PM - Re: Poly Tone paint (herb)
    16. 05:20 PM - Re: Poly Tone paint (Mike Welch)
    17. 05:55 PM - Re: Poly Tone paint (John Hauck)
    18. 07:39 PM - Re: Poly Tone paint (Mike Welch)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:43:03 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: xtra wingtip mods
    From: "icrashrc" <icrashrc@AOL.COM>
    John Hauck wrote: > Scott: > > How and where are you all going to attach and rig your aileron counter > balance weights? > > john h > mkIII John, The mass balances are nothing but a mechanical drawing right now. As soon as i finish the stress analysis i'll build a mock up and test it per FAA regs. I'll post pictures when we have the load limit testing complete. -------- Scott www.ill-EagleAviation.com do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219294#219294


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:46:50 AM PST US
    From: "Ted Cowan" <tc1917@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: 912
    mea culpa, mea culpa. I guess I had a brain fart. dont know what I was thinking when I posted that. I know the butterfly is for the throttle, yet I stated otherwise. I know and understand how the carb works -- is a bitch to set up from 582 linkage. I am old and getting older I guess. maybe I should go back to a razor scooter. my data bank is working good, my rememberance is wrong. I still like the enricher circuit on the 447 and 503 better than a plunger style on any kolb. you can troubleshoot it better. ted cowan, idiot, alabama, slingshot.


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:01:54 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off
    We're talking about a Kolb here, specifically a Firefly. >> Hi Bill, I wouldn`t like to try it on any plane but if it works and keeps on working safely I guess thats good enough. I fly the Extra and have her up to full throttle more or less as soon as the tail rises. Never had a problem with the high thrust line except when I dropped a wheel in a rut while taxying and stood her on her nose and wiped the pitot off. The Challenger was the same. Obviously not on the ground because of the nosewheel but if you went to full power on a go-round it was something to watch for. No great trouble, just be aware. Still don`t like the idea of being nose high at marginal flying speed though. How does JH do it? Comments John? Cheers Pat


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:10:26 AM PST US
    From: Masqqqqqqq@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off
    Remember, an UltraStar is unique among Kolbs because of the high tailboom, low engine arrangement. The tailwheel has to be about 3- 4 feet off the ground to level the wings for flight configuration. To takeoff, open the throttle with all controls centered. Adjust for P factor and crosswind as needed to keep the machine going straight as speed builds. When you feel the tail get responsive, a slight forward push on the stick will raise the tail to flight position. Center stick again to build speed for takeoff. When you achieve that speed, slight back on the stick and you are airborne. Taking off with the tail still on the ground can be done, but you're 'mushing' along, flirting with a stall. Landing the UltraStar is sort of opposite takeoff......... meaning, fly the main wheels onto the ground, and as your speed reduces, let the tail settle down. I tried 3 point landings, but putting the tail that low while flying slow results in a stall and a rough and bouncing landing. Only after putting Vortex Generators on the wings, could I do a 3 point landing. In a message dated 12/13/2008 4:28:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, pj.ladd@btinternet.com writes: "I always take off with the *stick centered and full back*." Hi Jean, I have not flown a Firefly but to take off `stick fully back ` is dangerous in any plane I dont know who Jack is but I am surprised that he is alive. If you take off as he suggests you will get airborne as soon as you hit flying speed. THAT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH. A slight drop in the wind or power from your engine and you will stall., just off the ground and you will at best bump heavily or at worst you will crash. You will also be stuck in ground effect until you build up some speed. It CAN be done that way but only when you have some experience. I never look at the ASI on takeoff. You do not fly small aircraft by the numbers with a co pilot calling V1, V2. Advance the throttle smoothly with the stick forward, the tail will come up in a few yards and you can ease off on the stick to balance the plane on its wheels. Smoothly push the throttle to full power. The plane will tell you when she wants to fly. Hold it like that for a couple of seconds as the speed builds and then ease the stick back and you will climb away with no trouble. You have gliding experience you will know that you do not pull into a steep climb until you have some height. Cables break and engines pack up. Good luck Pat (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List) **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:41:23 AM PST US
    Subject: Kolb high thrust line.
    From: "poorboy" <hartungj@srt.com>
    Gretings fellow flyers. I have been enjoying the reading of the posts, mostly I sit on the sidelines and look through the window of the postings. Reading the topics I am stirred up to comment on one of my fears, that is giving advice on flying technique and in particular the latest one on take off procedures. I suppose that my recent poor performance has brought me to the position of relearning some things, which has been a good thing, and in particular the review of reading all the postings has been a value. I recently changed my plane from a Poorboy to an Ultrastar and the takeoff power is quite different so I got into a bit of a scare several times because my bad habit of holding the stick back and taking off with lots of thrust available. A big engine like a 503 with a 70 prop made a lazy pilot out of me and I frequently violated the rules of common sense because with lots of power you can transition from not flying speed to flying with a steep takeoff angle and climb out and hardly realize you are doing it. WWEEEEEEEEE, lots of fun but potentially dumb! This has the potential of putting me in the position of no thrust with steep angle of attack (and quickly no airspeed), if this happens close to the ground (under 100 ft) it may do more than just bang up my planeouch to me When I started back flying an Ultrastar (this is my second Ultrastar) I quickly saw that my tactics were wrong. Now I was flying a 50 propeller with UL202 35hp, in the air this is adequate power and is a good flying plane but is marginal on a 700ft runway, I dont like being marginal and it scares me. A good portion of the problem lies in my poor takeoff procedure as holding the stick back on this plane actually slowed down the takeoff, increased the takeoff roll and the plane staggered into the air. I needed additional lesson from an instructor and review to get straightened out. This turned out to be quite nice flying plane, the engine ran flawlessly but the marginal performance (50 inch warp drive with adj. Experiments showed it was pitched very close to optimum) still it left me discontent for this runway has obstructions and I have sold the airplane and am now building a 1993 Firestar kit that was not finished. This is my second firestar (1st one 1991 rotax 377) and I had a mark III (1997 rotax 503). The point of my comment is that I seem to acquire patterns or habits that meet the experience necessities of the plane I am currently flying and in so doing my judgment and comments to others becomes skewed, that means I prefer to be careful when giving advice as I have lost the objectivity of view required for folks who have an other frame of reference from their last flying experience. The safe way out of this for me is to recommend them to an instructor; never-the-less these pages of comments are great and with that in mind allow my summarization of what I remembered differences in Kolbs. Ultrastar procedures. 1000 to 1200 ft. runway is adequate (unobstructed preferred), throttle up, stick forward or neutral to pick up the tail, take off roll is shortest with the wing angle of attack at close to zero until flying speed and gentle ease back on stick to lift off in ground effect or close to that height (ground effect generally one wingspan range of ground height) and let speed build a bit before entering climb out angle and rate. A great flying airplane, no handling surprised and it generally just does what you tell it to, very nice landing approach control. 35hp. UL202 has limited power as compared to some of the other Kolbs but is well suited to the plane, if a landing go around is required there is the need to recognize it early and add power soon enough if obstructions are part of the equation. My take offs are 500ft range for the best short ones and 700ft isnt long enough if Im doing it wrong. This is my experience with the two Ultrastars I have had, others may be better pilots or have other variables of weight and power that give different results. Firestar and Mark III. My experiences as I remember them were similar with these models as far as takeoff and landing are the subject, generally they are the same configuration. I have flown (owned) the short cab Firestar, flown a borrowed Firestar 2 long cab, and owned the Mark III. I have not flown a Firefly that has the most in common with the old short cab Firestar, the Firefly has a 22ft. wing and a flaperon control mixer. I will use the Firestar in general as a descriptive airplane subject as the high mounted engine configuration is present in all of these models. The Firestars need a modified procedure and awareness from many other airplanes, particular to Firestars is there high thrust line. Tractor airplanes and pushers with the prop thrust line even or below the line of the wing have much less of the tendencys that Kolb Firestars suffer from. My opinion is that they SUFFER from this feature as well as have the benefits of getting the prop high enough to allow efficient prop length (and the additional benefit of excellent aircraft fold up ability with the engine and prop out of the way of the folded wings), this is a reasonable trade off as Kolb sales have demonstrated. The down side of this high thrust line is substantial and should not be (in good flying practice) safely ignored. The 1st issue of high thrust line is adding power at takeoff, with the stick at neutral a quick throttle to full will put the Firestar on its nose often with damage, this is not a tendency present in most other aircraft. In order to compensate for this resultant action I hold the stick full back at early power addition and early roll for takeoff, but then I need to more neutral the stick as the tail becomes effective and in control, if the stick is left full back you encourage early takeoff and hard climb right into early flight, this is potentially dangerous and unnecessary. A safe and normal takeoff does not include a risky maneuver like early hard climb, this is special procedure for short field obstructed takeoff and good pilot judgment will try to avoid that. It takes a bit of practicing combinations of adding power more slowly and stick position for reasonable lift off speed and speed addition at low angle of attack before climb out. I notice that practice is what I need to keep from bobbing down the runway trying to balance that high thrust line and input stick control power issues, in actual application I tend to get lazy and just blast off with the stick too far back and allow the engine to haul my dumb butt up. The 2nd issue of high thrust line is quick throttle changes in flight will result in nose up with quick decrease power and nose down tendency when quickly adding power. The tendency is not serious in normal flight with altitude but certainly can be an issue during the landing cycle. The first answer here is not get caught in a situation when large power setting changes are quickly required, the faster you make those throttle changes the more pronounced the result. In particular note that on approach if you find out a bit late that you need to adjust the glide path angle a throttle adjustment will complicate the issue and without experience (practice) you are in for a surprise. I will stick my neck out here and say that the most common BAD landing incidents here is an approach that is judged for correction late in the cycle and a quick power addition will drive the aircraft right into the ground, this has damaged lots of Kolbs. How does that ring with you guys. Well that was a mouthful anyway, hope it was enjoyable if not viewed as accurate. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219324#219324


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:45:44 PM PST US
    From: TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Fw: UL: Chuck Slusasczyk - CGS Hawk
    Hi Kolbers, This was sent out to the UL list by Steve Bensinger, and knowing that many of you may know Chuck, thought I'd pass it on. Arty Trost Sandy, Oregon >Chuck's wife, Pixie, asked me to let you all know that Chuck had a >stroke a little over a week ago. After some time in ICU he's now in >the rehab center and doing very very well. He's up and around and >almost back to his old self. No word yet on when he'll be going home >- he could be in rehab for a while. >Cards can be sent to Chuck at: >Parma Community General Hospital >Rehab Center, Room 453 >7007 Powers Blvd. >Parma, OH 44129 >The shop is open for business as usual, with Chuck Capaldi and Nick >holding down the fort. Pixie is now checking Chuck's email (their >computer was down for the last week, too), and will forward your >questions to the guys in the shop. >Please keep the ol' chicken thief in your thoughts this holiday >season. - Steve Bensinger


    Message 7


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    Time: 02:01:01 PM PST US
    From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel@cyberport.net>
    Subject: VG research
    The NASA research on VGs which I read over 30 years ago concluded the best spanwise spacing occurred when the vortices generated just met at the training edge of the wing. The vortices spread from each generator at an included angle of 15 degrees. Thus, the farther forward the generators, the farther apart they can be and still be fully effective. Don't remember the details about chordwise location but they ended up at 10% - 15% of local chord. Whenever I get my FireStar flying I'll use these numbers as a starting point for my VG experimenting. Tom Kuffel Whitefish, MT


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:11:44 PM PST US
    From: GeoR38@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Fw: UL: Chuck Slusasczyk - CGS Hawk
    In a message dated 12/14/2008 4:46:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, thewanderingwench@yahoo.com writes: Hi Kolbers, This was sent out to the UL list by Steve Bensinger, and knowing that many of you may know Chuck, thought I'd pass it on. Arty Trost Sandy, Oregon >Chuck's wife, Pixie, asked me to let you all know that Chuck had a >stroke a little over a week ago. After some time in ICU he's now in >the rehab center and doing very very well. He's up and around and >almost back to his old self. No word yet on when he'll be going home >- he could be in rehab for a while. >Cards can be sent to Chuck at: >Parma Community General Hospital >Rehab Center, Room 453 >7007 Powers Blvd. >Parma, OH 44129 >The shop is open for business as usual, with Chuck Capaldi and Nick >holding down the fort. Pixie is now checking Chuck's email (their >computer was down for the last week, too), and will forward your >questions to the guys in the shop. >Please keep the ol' chicken thief in your thoughts this holiday >season. - Steve Bensinger Thank you for the heads up on "Chuck", Arty....Although he was just an acquaintance of mine I always felt that I knew him more than I did as he was so homey and open in the way he carries himself. Besides, his hawk was the main contender of the Firestar that I ultimately purchased from Homer, back in "90 as Chuck's business was only a few miles from where I lived in Warren, Ohio. I will send a card and wish him well. George Randolph Firestar driver in The Villages, Fl **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:46:01 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Poly Tone paint
    Kolb people, I have an expertise question for someone who knows their stuff about applying Poly Tone paint. For me, at the present time, it will be difficult to spray my Poly Tone paint. Too lengthy to go into, but it just would. I CAN spray, but I'd have to do it outside. My question is: Is it possible to brush on Poly Tone paint (with a very high quality brush), and it turn out with very good results. Is there anyone out there that brushed on their paint, and were pleased with the results? Or, should I just forget that idea, and plan on spraying it on? Mike Welch MkIII _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:57:17 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Poly Tone paint
    Mike, I doubt you would be happy with the result. I would buy a HVLP system. Combined with a couple of portable exhaust fans and a good mask you should be alright. These systems are now available at a reasonable price from sources like harbor freight. If I were not near the end of my project career I would get one myself. BB On 14, Dec 2008, at 6:45 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > > > Kolb people, > > I have an expertise question for someone who knows their stuff > about applying > Poly Tone paint. > > For me, at the present time, it will be difficult to spray my > Poly Tone paint. > Too lengthy to go into, but it just would. I CAN spray, but I'd > have to do it outside. > > My question is: Is it possible to brush on Poly Tone paint (with > a very high > quality brush), and it turn out with very good results. > Is there anyone out there that brushed on their paint, and were > pleased with > the results? Or, should I just forget that idea, and plan on > spraying it on? > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail? > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:02:45 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off
    Patrick: I fly the airplane. My MKIII, landing gear configuration and location being different from stan dard Kolb configuration, doesn't suffer from the dreaded nose over. It als o has a little aft cg, so it sort of flies off by itself. When I fly other Kolbs, I usually fly them the same way. I tell the airpla ne what I want it to do and do it. I have no standard procedure for takeoffs. Conditions are constantly chang ing. This dictates changes in how I fly. john h mkIII How does JH do it? Comments John? Cheers Pat


    Message 12


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    Time: 04:24:16 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Poly Tone paint
    > Mike, I doubt you would be happy with the result. I would buy a HVLP > system. Combined with a couple of > portable exhaust fans and a good mask you should be alright. Hi Bob, Thanks for the reply. I already have a HVLP system, and a very good mask. I used these to spray the horiz stabs, and elevators. This paint job was done at my last shop. When I finished spraying, I could close the door...and walk out. My problem at the moment is I am living in my new shop (in an apartment at the back). The entire shop, including the apartment, has a central heating/air conditioning system. In other words....our apartment space breathes shop vapors. Boo!!! Like I said, if no one thinks you can do a good job brushing it on, then I won't give it another thought. I'll pull out my HVLP, and do it right. I was just curious if anyone did brush it, and was happy with the results. Thanks, Mike Welch Do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008


    Message 13


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    Time: 04:30:54 PM PST US
    From: Arksey@AOL.COM
    Subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off
    Hi gang, Here is my 2 cents worth.....I fly a firestar ll 503, but I was taught to fly in J-3 cub and my instructors had me hold the stick full back when going to full power, the plane would start rolling forward, then going forward with the stick until the tail came up, then holding the stick so that the tail was up in a wheel landing attitude until flying speed, than back on the stick and climb at speed correct for climb out to altitude. I do the same in the firestar and it works just fine for me...I sure like the firestar and it sure has good traits on takeoff and landing...well just my 2 cents worth....a bit of snow on ground up here in michigan and sort of cold...so have not been flying....Jim Swan do not archive jim swan FS ll 503 michigan **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:43:50 PM PST US
    From: Arksey@aol.com
    Subject: RE: fired up
    Hi Larry, keep us informed of the HKS ....it should be a excellent engine for the firestar.....jim swan do not archive jim swan FS ll 503 michigan **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.


    Message 15


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    Time: 04:45:45 PM PST US
    From: herb <herbgh@nctc.com>
    Subject: Poly Tone paint
    Not a chance Mike...The poly tone would melt the poly spray -poly brush and make a mess...Herb its the acetone and mek.... At 06:24 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote: > > > > Mike, I doubt you would be happy with the result. I would buy a HVLP > > system. Combined with a couple of > > portable exhaust fans and a good mask you should be alright. > > Hi Bob, > > Thanks for the reply. I already have a HVLP system, and a very good mask. >I used these to spray the horiz stabs, and elevators. This paint job was done >at my last shop. When I finished spraying, I could close the door...and walk >out. > My problem at the moment is I am living in my new shop (in an > apartment at the back). >The entire shop, including the apartment, has a central heating/air >conditioning >system. In other words....our apartment space breathes shop vapors. Boo!!! > > Like I said, if no one thinks you can do a good job brushing it > on, then I won't >give it another thought. I'll pull out my HVLP, and do it right. I >was just curious >if anyone did brush it, and was happy with the results. > >Thanks, >Mike Welch >Do not archive > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. >http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 >


    Message 16


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    Time: 05:20:05 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Poly Tone paint
    > Not a chance Mike...The poly tone would melt the poly spray -poly > brush and make a mess...Herb > > its the acetone and mek.... Yup!! I think you pegged it, Herb. I hadn't considered that. That's all I needed to know. Thanks Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008


    Message 17


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    Time: 05:55:31 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Poly Tone paint
    > > Yup!! I think you pegged it, Herb. I hadn't considered that. That's > all I needed to know. Thanks > > Mike Welch I've seen a few cars and tractors painted with a brush, but would not be too proud of any of them. john h - None of these were painted with a brush. ;-) mkIII - 1993 OSH Grand Champion Light Plane 1993 Sun and Fun Reserve Grand Champion Light Plane Firestar - 1989 OSH Grand Champion Ultralight 1988 Sun and Fun Grand Champion Ultralight


    Message 18


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    Time: 07:39:16 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Poly Tone paint
    > john h - None of these were painted with a brush. ;-) > > mkIII - 1993 OSH Grand Champion Light Plane > 1993 Sun and Fun Reserve Grand Champion Light Plane > Firestar - 1989 OSH Grand Champion Ultralight > 1988 Sun and Fun Grand Champion Ultralight John H., I was curious if it was possible to do a nice paint job with a brush. Evidently not! I won't do anything but a professional looking job!! However, my friend Myron, (you met him last spring at Monument Valley) "TOLD" me he painted his entire plane with a brush Using Poly Tone Paint. And it looks DAMN nice!!! But, the fact is, I don't think he was entirely truthful. The airport regulations forbid ANY spraying of paint products. He may have told me he used a brush, so that I would think he was obeying the law in his hangar. My curiosity was if this scenario was possible. I would say "not likely." I am not in contact with him any longer. Mike Welch PS. I bought a car once that was painted with a brush, or a roller. 1961 Falcon. They used kitchen latex paint. It had about 30 lbs.of Bondo to cover the rust, spread by hand. It was a junker while I lived in Okinawa for a couple years 1971-1973. Ran like a champ, tho!! _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008




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