---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/03/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:22 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (Dana Hague) 2. 05:33 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (Eugene Zimmerman) 3. 06:59 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (robert bean) 4. 07:03 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (chris davis) 5. 07:41 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar (william sullivan) 6. 07:53 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (possums) 7. 07:58 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (Dana Hague) 8. 08:01 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar (william sullivan) 9. 08:05 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (russ kinne) 10. 09:25 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (robert bean) 11. 09:51 AM - Re: Extending the wing spar... (Mike Welch) 12. 02:10 PM - Steel Hanger (Dave Bigelow) 13. 02:35 PM - Re: Steel Hanger (robert bean) 14. 02:37 PM - Re: Steel Hanger (Dana Hague) 15. 03:16 PM - Enclosed trailer for sale (gliderx5@comcast.net) 16. 04:53 PM - Enclosed Trailer for sale (John Brown) 17. 08:27 PM - Re: Enclosed Trailer for sale (gliderx5@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:14 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... At 01:15 AM 1/3/2009, Nick Cassara wrote: >I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22 so >that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the spirit of >experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ >are the permanent wing tips. > >Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on >is&should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? >The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12 long section of spar inserted >inside the spare and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard >, what do you think & have at it? What do you mean, "flying to the tip"? And what is "the ______ _______"? Why are you extending the wings? Aren't short wings the whole point of the Kolbra? Without looking closely at the design, I would put the splice near the tip. Bending stresses are highest at the spar attach point and decrease as you go towards the tip and towards the root, but torsional stresses (from aileron forces) are highest at the root. -Dana -- New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil liberties or the U.S. Constitution. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:50 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... Nick, To me that would be a no brainer. If there is ANY chance that your modification may not be permanent, the wing tip end would be much easier to modify. Where do birds have their strongest bones, wing tips , or wing roots? IOW Don't mess with the wing root. My humble opinion only. Gene On Jan 3, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Nick Cassara wrote: > Greetings Kolber=92s new and old, > > I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by > 22=94 so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in > the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not > the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips. > > Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on > is=85should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the > outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12=94 long > section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I > favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think =85 have at it? > > Thank you all, for the great education! > > Nick Cassara > Palmer, Alaska -25 degree F > > PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:11 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... Nick, that cold air is having a detrimental effect on your decision making. As others have replied, definitely don't mess with the inboard end. That spar was meant to work as one big chunk. It doesn't take kindly to cutting and drilling. Rivet holes should be kept to a minimum. Most stress is in lift and drag which means particularly the quarter from front to bottom is in tension. Take a piece of that spar material, put it in a vise and bend it a couple times with visegrips. You will be alarmed at how readily it fails. Since the tips have a small load you may be better off inserting an I beam at the end. You could make a decent one from thick sheet metal in the form of a truncated U. -Or maybe a deep V with tabbed ends. BB On 3, Jan 2009, at 1:15 AM, Nick Cassara wrote: > Greetings Kolber=92s new and old, > > I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by > 22=94 so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in > the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not > the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips. > > Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on > is=85should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the > outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12=94 long > section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I > favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think =85 have at it? > > Thank you all, for the great education! > > Nick Cassara > Palmer, Alaska -25 degree F > > PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:26 AM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... Nick, I learned to really fly in a glider and the guys that had the real st ate of the art sailplanes had wing tip- attachments some as long as 5 fee t their extensions were always on the wingtip I think there is a lot more s hearing stress on the inboard end of the wing . Just my 2 cents ! Good Luck . what is wrong with wing as it comes ? do you need more lift? Chris=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Nick Cassara =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 1:15 :09 AM=0ASubject: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar...=0A=0A=0AGreetings K olber=92s new and old,=0A-=0AI am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22=94 so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Fli ght testing, in the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips. =0A-=0ASince I ha ve yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on is=85should the sp lice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12=94 long section of spar inserted inside the spar e and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard , what do you th ink =85 have at it?=0A-=0AThank you all, for the great education!=0A- =0ANick Cassara=0APalmer, Alaska-- -25 degree F=0A-=0APS Beaufort VG ====== =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:50 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Extending the wing spar - Nick- I have two sets of wings for my old Firestar.- One set is the o riginal "clipped" set that came with the plane- 12 feet long.- The other set is from a newer model, 13 feet long.- Both sets are probably about 20 years old.- The longer set had had the aileron tubes extended at the roo t end by one foot.- The extension was done by butt ending the tubes and i nserting a split tube insert about a foot long.- There were four rows of rivets securing the extension.- They were still straight and tight at the time of the crash.- Apparently the torque load did not bother anything. - Despite this, I agree with everyone else, and think that it is a very b ad idea to extend the tubes at the root area, just for general principles a nd common mechanical sense.- Leverage, thrust, and drag all come together at this point.- If you can't get longer tubes, think about working at th e tip end.- One of the guys on the List can give you a reference to photo s- I think it was Uncle Craig that did wing tip mods. - ------------------------- ------------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:20 AM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... I've seen the tips changed & the Leading Edge spliced, but not the spar. At least not the inboard end. At 01:15 AM 1/3/2009, you wrote: >Greetings Kolber=92s new and old, > >I am planning to extend the wing spars on my >proto type Kolbra by 22=94 so that the wing will >be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the >spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine >whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips. > >Since I have yet to build my wings, my question >for you to chew on is=85should the splice be on >the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? >The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12=94 long >section of spar inserted inside the spare and >riveted in place. I favor putting the splice >inboard , what do you think =85 have at it? > >Thank you all, for the great education! > >Nick Cassara >Palmer, Alaska -25 degree F > >PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:10 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... At 09:58 AM 1/3/2009, robert bean wrote: >...Most stress is in lift and >drag which means particularly the quarter from front to bottom is in tension. Actually, on a strut braced high wing airplane, the inboard part of the wing spar is primarily in compression (unless, of course, you're flying inverted). It has to be, to balance the tension in the lift struts. On a fully cantilevered wing, of course, it's a different story. -Dana -- Mr. Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:05 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Extending the wing spar Thanks, Possums.- That was one of the sets of photos I remembered, and th e sturdiest. - do not archive ------------------------- -------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- -------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:12 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... Nick I applaud your spirit of trying to make some improvements to your Kolbra -- but have you had any kind of engineer/designer look at it? It's a major change and could change the flying characteristics a lot. Generally not a good idea to mess with a well-proven design. ALSOI -- consider how she'd fly if one extension came off inflight, but not the other? I don't think you'd be very happly. Russ Kinne On Jan 3, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Nick Cassara wrote: > Greetings Kolber=92s new and old, > > I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by > 22=94 so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in > the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not > the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips. > > Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on > is=85should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the > outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12=94 long > section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I > favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think =85 have at it? > > Thank you all, for the great education! > > Nick Cassara > Palmer, Alaska -25 degree F > > PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:02 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... ya got me there pard, except for maybe in a steep dive at near zero Gs. Things must change fast when the pullout occurs. When I riveted the rib brackets to my left wing restoration I used fewer rivets than the other guy did. I didn't feel there was going to be that much twist load. So far, so good. BB On 3, Jan 2009, at 10:52 AM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 09:58 AM 1/3/2009, robert bean wrote: >> ...Most stress is in lift and >> drag which means particularly the quarter from front to bottom is >> in tension. > > Actually, on a strut braced high wing airplane, the inboard part of > the wing spar is primarily in compression (unless, of course, > you're flying inverted). It has to be, to balance the tension in > the lift struts. > > On a fully cantilevered wing, of course, it's a different story. > > -Dana > -- > Mr. Cole's Axiom: > The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the > population is growing. > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:43 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Extending the wing spar... >Greetings Kolbers new and old, >Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on isshould the splice be on the>inboard end of the spar or the outward end? >Nick Cassara >Palmer, Alaska -25 degree F Nick, As you are aware, I HAVE extended my wing spars, to accomodate droop tips. I chose to extend the outer tip of the spar by using a chrome moly truss and various alum. tubes for triangulation bracing. This method has provided a very strong 22" extension. Scott (icrashrc) used a similar method to extend the end of his spar, to also add droop tips. Although I think is "possible" to extend the spar at the root (as you descibed), I wouldn't consider it without destructive testing and some engineering calcs. If the splice were to fail at the root, the results would be predictable...bad!! Yes, as stated, the loads on the inner portion of the spar are in compression. Plus, the spar is also in a bending stress, which would create a shear on an inner extension. It is my opinion that if you add any length to the spar, it should be at the tip. With regard to failure of my spar extension truss design, I doubt it!! Once it was bolted on, and reinforced, it feels rock solid. To calculate the G forces at 6 G's on just the 22" wide extension is an easy affair. A quick calculation says each extension should be able to support around 225 lbs, for a 6 G force. 225 lbs wouldn't even get it's attention!! I think the general concensus here is to add on to the tip. It is reasonably easy, and can provide for a strong platform for droop tips. IMHO!! Best regards, Mike Welch MkIII _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:42 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Steel Hanger From: "Dave Bigelow" I'm looking for a company that will fabricate a simple steel hanger for my glider and Firestar. It needs to be 6.5 feet high at the walls and about 30 x 60 feet with a slightly pitched roof, and swing out double doors from the 30 foot dimension. My airport is now allowing shelters over tiedowns. The shelter (we don't call it a hanger) must be able to be disassembled and moved within a week to qualify. The glider will go on a dolly and go in sideways through the 30 foot opening, and the Firestar will be backed in with the wings over top of the glider wings. I know a lot of people on the list have put these buildings together, and sure will appreciate any information regarding companies who make them and tips regarding assembly. Do Not Archive -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222653#222653 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:46 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Steel Hanger Dave, why steel? Around here horse stable owners have been erecting huge fabric covered barns large enough for a riding arena. My neighbor has one. First time I drove past at night they had the lights on and it looked like a UFO had landed. The weather around here is certainly more challenging than most places. BB On 3, Jan 2009, at 5:08 PM, Dave Bigelow wrote: > > > I'm looking for a company that will fabricate a simple steel hanger > for my glider and Firestar. It needs to be 6.5 feet high at the > walls and about 30 x 60 feet with a slightly pitched roof, and > swing out double doors from the 30 foot dimension. > > My airport is now allowing shelters over tiedowns. The shelter (we > don't call it a hanger) must be able to be disassembled and moved > within a week to qualify. > > The glider will go on a dolly and go in sideways through the 30 > foot opening, and the Firestar will be backed in with the wings > over top of the glider wings. > > I know a lot of people on the list have put these buildings > together, and sure will appreciate any information regarding > companies who make them and tips regarding assembly. > > Do Not Archive > > -------- > Dave Bigelow > Kamuela, Hawaii > FS2, HKS 700E > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222653#222653 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:12 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Steel Hanger At 05:08 PM 1/3/2009, Dave Bigelow wrote: > >I'm looking for a company that will fabricate a simple steel hanger for my >glider and Firestar. It needs to be 6.5 feet high at the walls and about >30 x 60 feet.... Try http://www.shelterlogic.com/ Lots of these at one local airport... -Dana -- Mr. Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:51 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Kolb-List: Enclosed trailer for sale I want to offer this up to the Kolb list before I advertise elsewhere. I am selling the enclosed trailer for my MKII. I just finished a toy hauler conversion for the Kolb and no longer need this trailer. Pictures can be seen on my web site http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/kolb.htm . It has a new jack, new tires plus extra tires and rims, and built in storage for gas cans and oil. The Kolb loads very easily and it tows with my PT Cruiser. I'm only asking $500 and it's located in PA. Please contact me off the list if you're interested. Thanks and Happy New Year Malcolm Morrison ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:38 PM PST US From: "John Brown" Subject: Kolb-List: Enclosed Trailer for sale Hi Malcolm Morrison - ref your trailer for sale - I would like it for the Kolb Mk III Classic I am repairing - problem is I live in the UK. So I'm going to have to build my own - to a similar design to yours. What is the material used for the framework? How are the end doors constructed? Any further design info to help would be greatly appreciated. Happy New Year! John Brown MK III Classic being rebuilt. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:44 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Enclosed Trailer for sale John The subframe is an old trailer frame, 9 x 6 feet, and the tougue was extended with steel channel to create an open trailer (see picture on my site). When I bought the Kolb and trailer I extended and enclosed it by welding inch and half inch steel tubing in a truss to make a light and very rigid frame. 1 inch base and cross members and half inch for the upright hoops and truss. I added half inch plywood floor, front, and doors, as well as storage boxes over the wheel wells. My first tarp was from Harbor Frieght, and it did not hold up. I now have one from Lowes, and it seems to be holding up just fine. I have 6 foot pull out ramps and a tail dolly. It takes less than 30 minutes from arrival at the trailer to get the Kolb out, rig, fuel, and preflight. I keep the trailer at the local gliderport and it saves a ton of money compared to hangar rent. Malcolm Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Brown" Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:52:14 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Kolb-List: Enclosed Trailer for sale Hi Malcolm Morrison - ref your trailer for sale - I would like it for the Kolb Mk III Classic I am repairing - problem is I live in the UK. So I'm going to have to build my own - to a similar design to yours. What is the material used for the framework? How are the end doors constructed? Any further design info to help would be greatly appreciated. Happy New Year! John Brown ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.