Kolb-List Digest Archive

Fri 01/09/09


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 09:13 AM - Re: Old Engine (JetPilot)
     2. 09:52 AM - Re: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing (Dale Whelan)
     3. 03:41 PM - Instructing in a Kolb (gliderx5@comcast.net)
     4. 03:41 PM - Re: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing (Richard Girard)
     5. 03:49 PM - Re: Instructing in a Kolb (Dana Hague)
     6. 03:55 PM - Re: Instructing in a Kolb (Richard Girard)
     7. 05:13 PM - Re: Instructing in a Kolb (gliderx5@comcast.net)
     8. 05:44 PM - Re: Instructing in a Kolb (Dana Hague)
     9. 06:05 PM - Re: Instructing in a Kolb (gliderx5@comcast.net)
    10. 06:56 PM - Re: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing (Jack B. Hart)
    11. 07:40 PM - Re: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing (Dana Hague)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 09:13:36 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Old Engine
    From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
    The 12 HP Chrysler single cylinder is the engine I had on my first ultralight, which was the first weight shift Eipper Quicksilver. Mine also had the dual carbs into one cylinder and was advertised as 12 HP. My Eipper Quicksilver with engine weighed around 150 pounds, 300 pounds total with me in it, and it flew well. Stall was 17 MPH, Climb was 20 MPH, and cruise was about 22 MPH. The engine was just enough to fly 300 pounds gross at around 20 MPH. I seriously doubt this engine would be able to get a Kolb, or just about any other faster / heavier ultralight to even break ground. Mike -------- &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223699#223699


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:52:49 AM PST US
    From: "Dale Whelan" <dalewhelan@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing
    I have read posts by other motorcycle mechanics and thought if they would just shut up I may not look like I am dumb by association. I have spent many years racing and tuning a two stroke Gran Prix road race motorcycle equipped with ram air. I am not formally educated, I read a lot and test alot both on dynos and at the track. I have some experiance that way be helpful and increase the safety of some experimenters. SAFETY FIRST If the veturi is pressurized without pressurizing the rest of the fuel system, the fuel mixture will be leaned out! The floatbowl vent need to be pressurized to avoid reducing the pressure difference between the bowl and the venturi. The tank needs to be pressurized to avoid reducing fuel delivery to the carb from the increased bowl pressure. PERFORMANCE At the low speeds I fly my firestar at the increase in pressure is not likely to be worth my effort as I need no more power to cruise at my desired speed. I would need power for climb but the ram effect is lower at climb. I could use more power at high altitude but here again I am not usually flying fast. CONSIDERATIONS Air inlet needs to be relativly small compared to tube feeding the airbox. Venturi effect, volune increases velocity slows, pressure rises. The airbox has a resonant frequency, some of the variables are, box volume, inlet length, and inlet area. The box seems to have about as much effect as the pressure. PERSONALLY If I were to modify my powerplant, (not sure I want to go throught the test tune fail learn process with my plane) I would go after power, without increase in RPM, and higher efficiency. POwer can be improved by reducing waste or by processing more fuel. My 503 could use more compression for the fuel I use, my friends looks like it can't. I would build an exhaust that put the torque peak at cruise RPM if I wanted max fuel economy. The exhaust would be an expansion chamber, actually two of them. The tune would need to be just broad enought to cover the RPM range from cruise to climb. The ram air system would be simple, mount the carbs inside the airbox and vent the tanks to the airbox if I were to ram air the motor. I would rather just have the airbox. For me there are are aerodynamic considerations to offset some of the improved motor efficiency, but I would expect a net gain. The thing that concearns me the most is the addition of parts ahead of the prop, welded and designed by me. I would recomend becoming an expert in jetting and timing before attempting this kind of work, I expect some of you are. SIDE NOTE I have heard many say that jetting a plane is different than a motorcycle, When people say that to me I doubt they know how to tune either. Dale Whelan dalewhelan@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You.


    Message 3


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    Time: 03:41:30 PM PST US
    From: gliderx5@comcast.net
    Subject: Instructing in a Kolb
    I'm trying to interpret the FARs for training in an experimental amateur built airplane that I own (ie. my Kolb MKII) 91.319 states (a) that I cannot carry persons for compensation or hire - which I believe means just that - passengers. (e) that I cannot operate the aircraft for compensation except to conduct flight training (c) in an aircraft that I provide prior to 1/31/2010. (f) That I can lease the Kolb for instruction until 1/31/2010. It looks like - I can be paid for instruction in my Kolb only until 1/31/2010 - I can lease my Kolb for instruction only until 1/31/2010 - I cannot be paid for instruction in a Kolb that the student provides anytime - I can give free instruction in my Kolb or the students Kolb anytime Does this sound right? Malcolm Morrison MKII


    Message 4


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    Time: 03:41:43 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Girard" <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing
    Dale, Glad you brought all this up. Going to lunch after the Bing carb section of the Rotax mechanic courses at Lockwood, I asked Rotax guru Eric Tucker about my plans to build ram air into the cowling of my 582 powered Mk III. I covered pretty much everything you brought up and his advice was don't do it. The Bing is designed for ambient pressure and the design isn't conducive to ram air even if you do take all this into account. He's been working on Rotax engines for 40+ years since his snowmobile racing days so I figure he might know. Still, it's experimental aviation and as they say, one good experiment beats a thousand expert opinions. Good luck, Jack Rick On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Dale Whelan <dalewhelan@earthlink.net>wrote: > I have read posts by other motorcycle mechanics and thought if they would > just shut up I may not look like I am dumb by association. > I have spent many years racing and tuning a two stroke Gran Prix road race > motorcycle equipped with ram air. > I am not formally educated, I read a lot and test alot both on dynos and at > the track. > I have some experiance that way be helpful and increase the safety of some > experimenters. > > SAFETY FIRST > If the veturi is pressurized without pressurizing the rest of the fuel > system, the fuel mixture will be leaned out! > The floatbowl vent need to be pressurized to avoid reducing the > pressure difference between the bowl and the venturi. > The tank needs to be pressurized to avoid reducing fuel delivery to the > carb from the increased bowl pressure. > > PERFORMANCE > At the low speeds I fly my firestar at the increase in pressure is not > likely to be worth my effort as I need no more power to cruise at my desired > speed. I would need power for climb but the ram effect is lower at climb. I > could use more power at high altitude but here again I am not usually flying > fast. > > CONSIDERATIONS > Air inlet needs to be relativly small compared to tube feeding the > airbox. Venturi effect, volune increases velocity slows, pressure rises. > The airbox has a resonant frequency, some of the variables are, box > volume, inlet length, and inlet area. The box seems to have about as much > effect as the pressure. > > PERSONALLY > If I were to modify my powerplant, (not sure I want to go throught the > test tune fail learn process with my plane) I would go after power, without > increase in RPM, and higher efficiency. POwer can be improved by reducing > waste or by processing more fuel. > My 503 could use more compression for the fuel I use, my friends looks like > it can't. > I would build an exhaust that put the torque peak at cruise RPM if I > wanted max fuel economy. The exhaust would be an expansion chamber, actually > two of them. The tune would need to be just broad enought to cover the RPM > range from cruise to climb. The ram air system would be simple, mount the > carbs inside the airbox and vent the tanks to the airbox if I were to ram > air the motor. I would rather just have the airbox. > For me there are are aerodynamic considerations to offset some of the > improved motor efficiency, but I would expect a net gain. The thing that > concearns me the most is the addition of parts ahead of the prop, welded and > designed by me. > I would recomend becoming an expert in jetting and timing before > attempting this kind of work, I expect some of you are. > > SIDE NOTE > I have heard many say that jetting a plane is different than a > motorcycle, When people say that to me I doubt they know how to tune either. > > > Dale Whelan > dalewhelan@earthlink.net > EarthLink Revolves Around You. > > > * > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:49:51 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Instructing in a Kolb
    At 06:40 PM 1/9/2009, gliderx5@comcast.net wrote: >It looks like >- I can be paid for instruction in my Kolb only until 1/31/2010 >- I can lease my Kolb for instruction only until 1/31/2010 >- I cannot be paid for instruction in a Kolb that the student provides anytime >- I can give free instruction in my Kolb or the students Kolb anytime > >Does this sound right? Except for #3, I believe... I'm pretty sure it's always been legal for one to hire a flight instructor to provide instruction in one's own airplane... since the owner of the aircraft is not receiving any compensation for the use of the aircraft. -Dana -- (A)bort, (R)etry, (P)retend it didn't happen?


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:55:55 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Girard" <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Instructing in a Kolb
    Malcolm, I,2,and 4 are correct, but for E-LSA, not E-AB. You can be paid for your instruction in a plane the student provides. Rick On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM, <gliderx5@comcast.net> wrote: > I'm trying to interpret the FARs for training in an experimental amateur > built airplane that I own (ie. my Kolb MKII) > 91.319 states (a) that I cannot carry persons for compensation or hire - > which I believe means just that - passengers. > (e) that I cannot operate the aircraft for compensation except to conduct > flight training (c) in an aircraft that I provide prior to 1/31/2010. > (f) That I can lease the Kolb for instruction until 1/31/2010. > > It looks like > - I can be paid for instruction in my Kolb only until 1/31/2010 > - I can lease my Kolb for instruction only until 1/31/2010 > - I cannot be paid for instruction in a Kolb that the student provides > anytime > - I can give free instruction in my Kolb or the students Kolb anytime > > Does this sound right? > > Malcolm Morrison > MKII > > * > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:13:09 PM PST US
    From: gliderx5@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Instructing in a Kolb
    Dana I agree. I always thought that the instructor could be paid if the student provided the experimental airplane, but I just can't figure out how 91.319 says that this is true. Paragraph (e) seems clear that no person may operate an experimental aircraft for compensation except (2) to conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides, prior to 1/31/2010. There is no exclusion for an aircraft that the student provides. This is counter to what I had always thought. Also, I misread the FAR when I created my second conclusion earlier. Leasing only applies to aircraft being used for towing gliders, so not for flight instruction. Malcolm Morrison MKII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Hague" <d-m-hague@comcast.net> Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 6:47:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Instructing in a Kolb At 06:40 PM 1/9/2009, gliderx5@comcast.net wrote: >It looks like >- I can be paid for instruction in my Kolb only until 1/31/2010 >- I can lease my Kolb for instruction only until 1/31/2010 >- I cannot be paid for instruction in a Kolb that the student provides anytime >- I can give free instruction in my Kolb or the students Kolb anytime > >Does this sound right? Except for #3, I believe... I'm pretty sure it's always been legal for one to hire a flight instructor to provide instruction in one's own airplane... since the owner of the aircraft is not receiving any compensation for the use of the aircraft. -Dana -- (A)bort, (R)etry, (P)retend it didn't happen?


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:44:57 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Instructing in a Kolb
    At 08:12 PM 1/9/2009, gliderx5@comcast.net wrote: >Dana > >I agree. I always thought that the instructor could be paid if the >student provided the experimental airplane, but I just can't figure out >how 91.319 says that this is true. Paragraph (e) seems clear that no >person may operate an experimental aircraft for compensation except (2) to >conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides, prior >to 1/31/2010. There is no exclusion for an aircraft that the student >provides. This is counter to what I had always thought. Also, I misread >the FAR when I created my second conclusion earlier. Leasing only applies >to aircraft being used for towing gliders, so not for flight instruction. 91.319(e) refers to 21.191(i) only applies to E-LSA, i.e. E-LSA kits or aircraft converted to E-LSA from fat ultralights, but not to E-AB aircraft. E-AB aircraft fall under 91.313(a)(2), which says you can't carry persons or property for compensation or hire (which doesn't include flight instruction), as opposed to the more broad 91.319(e) which only covers all aspects of "operating for compensation or hire". So, a converted E-LSA Kolb can be used for paid instruction, whether it's owned by the student or the instructor, until 2010. If it's E-AB, it can be used for paid instruction only if the student owns it, and that's true forever (or until the FAA changes the rules). -Dana -- Friends help you move. *Real* friends help you move bodies.


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:05:22 PM PST US
    From: gliderx5@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Instructing in a Kolb
    Dana Thanks. That clears up the confusion. I hate FARs Malcolm Morrison MKII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Hague" <d-m-hague@comcast.net> Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 8:41:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Instructing in a Kolb At 08:12 PM 1/9/2009, gliderx5@comcast.net wrote: Dana I agree. I always thought that the instructor could be paid if the student provided the experimental airplane, but I just can't figure out how 91.319 says that this is true. Paragraph (e) seems clear that no person may operate an experimental aircraft for compensation except (2) to conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides, prior to 1/31/2010. There is no exclusion for an aircraft that the student provides. This is counter to what I had always thought. Also, I misread the FAR when I created my second conclusion earlier. Leasing only applies to aircraft being used for towing gliders, so not for flight instruction. 91.319(e) refers to 21.191(i) only applies to E-LSA, i.e. E-LSA kits or aircraft converted to E-LSA from fat ultralights, but not to E-AB aircraft. E-AB aircraft fall under 91.313(a)(2), which says you can't carry persons or property for compensation or hire (which doesn't include flight instruction), as opposed to the more broad 91.319(e) which only covers all aspects of "operating for compensation or hire". So, a converted E-LSA Kolb can be used for paid instruction, whether it's owned by the student or the instructor, until 2010. If it's E-AB, it can be used for paid instruction only if the student owns it, and that's true forever (or until the FAA changes the rules). -Dana


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:56:06 PM PST US
    From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
    Subject: Re: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing
    Dale & Rick, First of all, if my air fuel mixture control had not been effective, I would not be trying this. Also, if I did not have an EGT sensor and gage, I would have to tune just as the snowmobiler and the motorcyclist do. Although I do not motorcycle or snowmobile, I believe it may be impractical to monitor EGT while riding either one. I assume one needs to maintain a high degree of diligence on the immediate surroundings. This is similar to landing, takeoff and taxiing an ultra light. But once in the air a pilot can devote some time to monitoring an EGT as well as looking out side the cockpit. Also, it is not easy to ground adjust for the current local atmospheric conditions when one wants to go for a ride in/on any of these vehicles. It amazes me that Rotax, who manufactures aircraft engines, has not picked a carburetor that was cockpit adjustable. This short coming ensures that these engines run richer than necessary. My Bing conversion may not be the solution. I have only 13 and one-half hours on it. I am very encouraged. If you have not see the conversion, it can be found at: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly146.html ........ Dale, Yes, as the air density is increased, the air fuel mixture will move toward the lean side. I really have no idea of the dynamic air pressure at the carburetor. But assuming the FireFly is moving at 50 mph IAS and to overcome the drag the air passing through the propeller is 100 mph, the dynamic pressure will 4.73 inches of water. I am assuming my system will be able to accommodate this pressure increase. The first flight will be made with the housing rotated vertical, so that, the carburetor is operating at it's normal static pressure. Carburetor inlet static pressure will be measured to establish base line data. On the next fight the housing will be rotated about thirty degrees from vertical. Hopefully I will see an increase in carburetor inlet static pressure over the whole cruise rpm range. And again hopefully, I will be able to maintain acceptable EGT over the entire range. If that can not be done, the needle will have to be lifted. This process will be repeated until the housing is pointed directly forward. This is how I foresee it, but it all has to wait until warmer weather. If I see an increase in carburetor inlet static pressure, I would expect the engine to top out at a higher rpm, which will let me add a little more pitch in the propeller, and give me a little better climb rate. My air fuel mixture control is based on varying the pressure over the float bowl. So far it has not caused any problems. At this time I can only hope it will accommodate the housing dynamic pressures. Pressurizing the tank is a good idea. The fuel pump has to lift fuel quite a distance on FireFly. No argument about jetting. I keep hoping the weather will break. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN --------------------------------- From: "Richard Girard" <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> Dale, Glad you brought all this up. Going to lunch after the Bing carb section of the Rotax mechanic courses at Lockwood, I asked Rotax guru Eric Tucker about my plans to build ram air into the cowling of my 582 powered Mk III. I covered pretty much everything you brought up and his advice was don't do it. The Bing is designed for ambient pressure and the design isn't conducive to ram air even if you do take all this into account. He's been working on Rotax engines for 40+ years since his snowmobile racing days so I figure he might know. Still, it's experimental aviation and as they say, one good experiment beats a thousand expert opinions. -------------------------------- On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Dale Whelan <dalewhelan@earthlink.net> wrote: SAFETY FIRST If the veturi is pressurized without pressurizing the rest of the fuel system, the fuel mixture will be leaned out! The floatbowl vent need to be pressurized to avoid reducing the pressure difference between the bowl and the venturi. The tank needs to be pressurized to avoid reducing fuel delivery to the carb from the increased bowl pressure. SIDE NOTE I have heard many say that jetting a plane is different than a motorcycle, When people say that to me I doubt they know how to tune either.


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:40:10 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Dynamic Air Pressure Filter Housing
    At 09:57 PM 1/9/2009, Jack B. Hart wrote: >...Although I do >not motorcycle or snowmobile, I believe it may be impractical to monitor EGT >while riding either one. I assume one needs to maintain a high degree of >diligence on the immediate surroundings... More to the point, I think, is that you can't do an extended full power runup while a snowmobile is standing still; indeed I imagine you rarely are at full power for more than a few moments at a time. -Dana -- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.




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