---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/15/09: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:11 AM - Re: HKS flight (pj.ladd) 2. 03:35 AM - Re: HKS flight (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 3. 05:24 AM - Re: HKS flight (Richard Girard) 4. 06:33 AM - Re: HKS flight (Thom Riddle) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: HKS flight (lucien) 6. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: HKS flight (fs2kolb@aol.com) 7. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: HKS flight (robert bean) 8. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: Pressurized motors (Jack B. Hart) 9. 08:06 AM - Re: HKS flight (lucien) 10. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: HKS flight (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 11. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: HKS flight (John Hauck) 12. 09:38 AM - Landing gear (william sullivan) 13. 09:49 AM - Re: HKS flight (Mnflyer) 14. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: HKS flight (Richard Girard) 15. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: HKS flight (Richard Girard) 16. 10:41 AM - Re: Landing gear (Mike Welch) 17. 11:19 AM - Re: Landing gear (Jim Hauck) 18. 11:42 AM - Re: Landing gear (Richard Girard) 19. 12:12 PM - Re: Landing gear (Jim Hauck) 20. 02:49 PM - Re: HKS flight (lucien) 21. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: HKS flight (HShack@aol.com) 22. 03:18 PM - Re: Landing gear (william sullivan) 23. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear (John Hauck) 24. 04:00 PM - Re: HKS flight (lucien) 25. 04:26 PM - Re: Landing gear (william sullivan) 26. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear (John Hauck) 27. 04:48 PM - Re: Landing gear (william sullivan) 28. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear (John Hauck) 29. 06:59 PM - HKS flight (Larry Cottrell) 30. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: HKS flight (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 31. 07:50 PM - fabric rubbing on cage tubes (cristalclear13) 32. 07:53 PM - Web Site Updates (George Alexander) 33. 08:31 PM - Weather (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 34. 09:25 PM - Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes (The BaronVonEvil) 35. 10:56 PM - Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes (robert bean) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:33 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS flight Hi Larry, nice pics but I notice that you had nearly 5000 on the altimeter. I assume that is not AGL. Is it usual to use that setting.? I have noticed before that most posts on the lists have very high figures and have always assumed they are not AGL I always set AGL unless going x-country above 3000ft and then set Regional Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:49 AM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS flight -18 without a wind chill in Maine this morning in the northeast not to much flying will be done this week Ellery in Maine do not archive In a message dated 1/14/2009 10:32:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rlaird@cavediver.com writes: But what about when taxiing and idling on the ground when it's hot outside? On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Richard Girard <_aslsa.rng@gmail.com_ (mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com) > wrote: Robert, I'm in Kansas. It gets pretty hot here and I don't have any problems. CHT's run 300 to 305 in cruise, limit is 338. EGT's run mid 1100's to 1200. Oil runs in the 180's. Rick (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:16 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS flight Robert, In the summer the wind here is generally out of the south so I have a 1/2 mile taxi from my back yard to the departure end of runway 17. Temps are usually still not up to takeoff requirements (CHT > 200 deg. F, oil > 122 deg. F) although it's the oil that always causes the wait. From HKS Operation Manual page 13: 5.3. Warm up and run up Wait for the oil temperature to reach a minimum of 50 Deg. C (122 Deg. F) before taking off or running up to a high RPM You have to remember the HKS is not an air cooled engine (at least not primarily), it's an oil cooled engine. Oil is circulated by three oil pumps (one for pressure, two for scavenge) through the cylinder heads just as coolant is circulated by the water pump in the Rotax 912 / 914 engines. Rick On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Robert Laird wrote: > But what about when taxiing and idling on the ground when it's hot outside? > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > >> Robert, I'm in Kansas. It gets pretty hot here and I don't have any >> problems. CHT's run 300 to 305 in cruise, limit is 338. EGT's run mid 1100's >> to 1200. Oil runs in the 180's. >> Rick >> > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:17 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight From: "Thom Riddle" Larry, Nice photos. I live in the suburbs on a 60x100 lot so these way-out-in-the-booneys photos always amaze me. Couple of questions: How far away is your nearest neighbor? What are the 5.0 and 5 (integer) on your EIS measuring? I know the others... I think. do not archive -------- Thom Riddle N1208P RANS S6S, Tailwheel, 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- It is by universal misunderstanding that all agree. For if, by ill luck, people understood each other, they would never agree. - Charles Baudelaire Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224891#224891 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight From: "lucien" NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > Larry/All > > Great report. > > The HKS is a great engine. I'm a bit surprised there aren't more flying. I saw a nice Kolb Slingshot at Sun N Fun last year with a HKS. Rotax makes some great engines but with almost total dominance of the market they have gotten out of hand with their pricing and have failed to produce a small 4 stroke for the smaller airplanes. > Well, looking at greensky's site, I see the HKS is up to almost 10 grand now. 10 grand gets you back into the neighborhood of the competition and kind of starts the whole problem with excessive cost all over again. That's about 75% of the cost of the 912 80hp for example, the 503 can be had with a gearbox for half that, etc..... Pretty disappointing if you ask me, and not the right direction to go in if you really want to try to displace Rotax.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224902#224902 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight From: fs2kolb@aol.com Close to?12 grand to install an HKS on a FireStar II when you add the exhaust, oil tank, oil cooler, mounting hardware and every thing else.? -----Original Message----- From: lucien Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 8:32 am Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > Larry/All > > Great report. > > The HKS is a great engine. I'm a bit surprised there aren't more flying. I saw a nice Kolb Slingshot at Sun N Fun last year with a HKS. Rotax makes some great engines but with almost total dominance of the market they have gotten out of hand with their pricing and have failed to produce a small 4 stroke for the smaller airplanes. > Well, looking at greensky's site, I see the HKS is up to almost 10 grand now. 10 grand gets you back into the neighborhood of the competition and kind of starts the whole problem with excessive cost all over again. That's about 75% of the cost of the 912 80hp for example, the 503 can be had with a gearbox for half that, etc..... Pretty disappointing if you ask me, and not the right direction to go in if you really want to try to displace Rotax.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224902#224902 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:45 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight -especially since you can now buy a dandy, ready to fly complete used airplane for that $$$$$$ BB On 15, Jan 2009, at 10:32 AM, lucien wrote: > > > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: >> Larry/All >> >> Great report. >> >> The HKS is a great engine. I'm a bit surprised there aren't more >> flying. I saw a nice Kolb Slingshot at Sun N Fun last year with a >> HKS. Rotax makes some great engines but with almost total >> dominance of the market they have gotten out of hand with their >> pricing and have failed to produce a small 4 stroke for the >> smaller airplanes. >> > > > Well, looking at greensky's site, I see the HKS is up to almost 10 > grand now. 10 grand gets you back into the neighborhood of the > competition and kind of starts the whole problem with excessive > cost all over again. > That's about 75% of the cost of the 912 80hp for example, the 503 > can be had with a gearbox for half that, etc..... > > Pretty disappointing if you ask me, and not the right direction to > go in if you really want to try to displace Rotax.... > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224902#224902 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:37 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Pressurized motors At 01:33 PM 1/14/09 -0800, you wrote: > >Let's say you have 1 bar of pressure in the float bowl and .9 bar in the venturi. The lower pressure in the venturi results in fuel delivery to the venturi. >Now if we increased the venturi pressure by .2 bar we would have fuel delivery to the bowl. >On my racing Yamaha the bowl and venturi are equally pressurized by putting the whole carb in the airbox. A fuel pump was also added to replace the gravity feed system and the float seats were replaced with smaller diameter fuel inlets. Honda chose to have solenoid controlled fuel tank vents, and pressurized the tank as well. > >Just run the bowl vents into your airbox. Excessively long bowl vents have caused running problems on some motors I have seen, I am not sure why. > Dale, At the pressures you have given above, I agree with you and I belive this where I had the disconnect with your thinking. It has to do with the size of the pressure differences. I have been thinking about a maximum pressure difference of five inches of water, which is 0.012 bar. The air box connection is good. In my case I use the pressure below the wing as the maximum constant float bowl static pressure source. For level flight, this source is independent of altitude or airspeed. But it's magnitude is dependent upon wing loading. For the my FireFly at gross weight this static pressure calculates out to 0.989 inches of water. Since my carburetor is set rich at this static pressure, I can lower the pressure to the float bowl and lean out the engine as desired. As for the excessively long bowl vent problems, I expect it is caused by carburetor design. Some carburetors draw jet percolation air through an internal passage way to from over the float bowl. This means there is a constant flow through the float bowl vents. Any constriction that would influence this flow, such as a long tube, would cause problems. In the case of the Bing this is not a problem, as the idle and percolation air sources are independent of and not connected to the float bowl. If this was not the case, I would not be able to move the EGT 150 degrees F with a five inches of water pressure change over the float bowl. This has been interesting. Four below zero, blowing snow and bright sunshine. Late yesterday afternoon, I fired up the Kubota and blew snow for about an hour. I will have to do the same before the school bus drops off the grand daughter. Not as much fun as flying, but it does break up the day. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight From: "lucien" fs2kolb(at)aol.com wrote: > Close to 12 grand to install an HKS on a FireStar II when you add the exhaust, oil tank, oil cooler, mounting hardware and every thing else. > > > -- That's more than the plane, isn't it? Now to be fair, this is true of the 912 too, you have to add exhaust and radiators, etc. But, more to the point of the HKS's competition, having owned and flown an FSII with the 503 (which comes with everything you need in the box), I'd personally be hard pressed to justify about a doubling in price for the HKS. The 503 with a 3.47:1 C box is around 6 large. It'll run for about 450 to 500 hours. Complete rebuild is in the 2 grand range and the C box will last as-is for probably 3 engines. Fuel burn on the FSII will be higher, but will still only be around 3gph. Dunno..... I personally still think the 503 is a strong contender for the money........ And it's the proven motor for the FSII........... So again, I'm pretty disappointed in the cost of the HKS. 12 large installed is a lot for a 60hp engine....... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224911#224911 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:04 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight Lucien I didn't realize the HKS got that expensive. The HKS is a fine engine that will give its owners peace of mind that it will not let them down and that is worth some of the extra cost. The problem here is that again there is no competition, We need alternatives. When fuel prices come back up fuel burn will be a issue again. Most of the 503 powered FSIIs that I fly with burn about 4 gallons and hour and a bit more if they are trying to keep up with my VW powered MKIIIC burning 4 gallons per hour at 74MPH. I also didn't realize a 503 was $6,000!!!!! I rest my case...... Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight > > > fs2kolb(at)aol.com wrote: >> Close to 12 grand to install an HKS on a FireStar II when you add the >> exhaust, oil tank, oil cooler, mounting hardware and every thing else. >> >> >> -- > > > That's more than the plane, isn't it? > Now to be fair, this is true of the 912 too, you have to add exhaust and > radiators, etc. > > But, more to the point of the HKS's competition, having owned and flown an > FSII with the 503 (which comes with everything you need in the box), I'd > personally be hard pressed to justify about a doubling in price for the > HKS. > > The 503 with a 3.47:1 C box is around 6 large. It'll run for about 450 to > 500 hours. Complete rebuild is in the 2 grand range and the C box will > last as-is for probably 3 engines. Fuel burn on the FSII will be higher, > but will still only be around 3gph. > > Dunno..... I personally still think the 503 is a strong contender for the > money........ And it's the proven motor for the FSII........... > > So again, I'm pretty disappointed in the cost of the HKS. 12 large > installed is a lot for a 60hp engine....... > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224911#224911 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight > I didn't realize the HKS got that expensive. > > I also didn't realize a 503 was $6,000!!!!! I rest my case...... > > Rick Neilsen Rick N: Nothing is cheap anymore. Do a quick search for outboard motor prices in the 50 to 100 hp range, two and four stroke. You will be amazed how much these engines cost, especially when one considers the number of "big" manufacturers and the large market for them. I burned a solid 4.0 gph at 5,000 rpm with my 80 hp 912, producing 80 mph in my mkIII. 5.0 gph at 5,000 rpm with my 100 hp 912, producing 85 mph. I am not complaining about fuel burn. I am willing to pay the extra price for reliability and performance. If I had to sit on the edge of my seat the entire time I was flying my mkIII, I'd just as soon stay home. I learned a long time ago that my flying hobby was for fun. When I get to the point that I can not afford to fly, it will probably already have gotten to the point that it is no longer fun. john h mkIII - Balmy 41F and sun at hauck's holler. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:15 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Landing gear - Jim Hauck- Last May you suggested using steel tubing for the landing le gs on a Firefly or old Firestar with the 1" legs.- Your suggestion was to go half way down with the 1", and change to 3/4".- I am considering stee l legs, and wondered about the half way comment.- Halfway from the bottom of the "A" frame?- I know about using 4130 and hardening to R48.- Do y ou pre-drill before hardening?- I haven't ordered any legs yet, but If I go to the new 1 1/8" Firefly legs I will have to drill out the aluminum tub e spacer in there. - Also, when joining the 1" to the 3/4" do you just run the bolt through the "A" frame at the usual spot, or another bolt lower, or a weld at the to p and allow the lower joint to move? - ------------------------- ------------------------- -- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- -- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------- -- 5 degrees and overcast, light snow flurries ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight From: "Mnflyer" Cooling of the HKS is not a problem as posted the engine cyl are oil cooled, in 300+ hrs I've never had a cooling problem, in fact I can now fly in much hotter temps than I could with the Rotax 582. As for cost of the engine yes the HKS is now near $12000.00, the Rotax 912 is now near $20000.00 and the cost of a new 503 is near $7100.00. The cost per hour to operate the HKS is less than 1/2 of what it costs to operate the 582 . Having flown both engine for 300 hrs each I know this from my records and by my records my HKS is now free after 300 hrs of operation VS the 582 considering I would now be looking at another $3000.00 overhaul bill and the increased fuel costs (4.5 gph vs 3 gph), my HKS still has 700 hrs to go till overhaul, and when comparing operating cost one has to go by the manufactures TBO not what someone has gotten out of their engine and Rotax has a 300 hr TBO the HKS has 1000 hrs. -------- GB MNFlyer Flying a HKS Kitfox III Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224934#224934 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:51 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight I don't have any economic dog in this fight, but let's be fair. The Rotax 503 @ 49 HP is not the engine to compare the HKS with, the 582 is.With a "C" box and electric start a new 582 from Lockwood is $7951.00. Rotax says it's TBO is 300 hours. I don't know what others get but mine uses 5 gph in cruise (I define cruise as 60% power because I'm cheap). An HKS from Hpower is $9,371.70. Add an exhaust ,$750, oil tank and cooler ,$750, various and sundry (oil lines and such) ,$200. That's a total of $11,072. It's rated TBO is 1000 hours. At 60% power mine burns 2.5 gph. Lets just take that fuel burn and see where we are when the 582 reaches TBO. 5 X 300 = 1500 X $4.00 (you don't really think the oil companies are going to let the current aberrant prices stand, do you?) = $6000. The HKS is half that at $3000. That just negated the price difference between the two right there and you haven't paid for your 582 to be overhauled yet. With the HKS you'll be half way through your second set of plugs @ $80 a set (iridium plugs are pricey), and less than a 1/3 of the way to TBO. Take the 582 to the HKS TBO you've now spent $20,000 for fuel + three overhauls (I had to go to LEAF for this) @ $3150 = $9,450. At 1000 hours the 582 has cost $37,401. The HKS fuel cost is $10,000, and the first overhaul, with no crankshaft replacement requirement is about $2000, to be fair let's use the 582 cost @ $3150. At 1000 hours the HKS has cost $24,222. That's $13,179 less than the 582. Now there's an apples and apples comparison of engines and the reason my trike has an HKS and not a 582. Rick On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen < NeilsenRM@comcast.net> wrote: > NeilsenRM@comcast.net> > > Lucien > > I didn't realize the HKS got that expensive. The HKS is a fine engine that > will give its owners peace of mind that it will not let them down and that > is worth some of the extra cost. The problem here is that again there is no > competition, We need alternatives. > > When fuel prices come back up fuel burn will be a issue again. Most of the > 503 powered FSIIs that I fly with burn about 4 gallons and hour and a bit > more if they are trying to keep up with my VW powered MKIIIC burning 4 > gallons per hour at 74MPH. > > I also didn't realize a 503 was $6,000!!!!! I rest my case...... > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:06 AM > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight > > >> >> >> fs2kolb(at)aol.com wrote: >> >>> Close to 12 grand to install an HKS on a FireStar II when you add the >>> exhaust, oil tank, oil cooler, mounting hardware and every thing else. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >> >> >> That's more than the plane, isn't it? >> Now to be fair, this is true of the 912 too, you have to add exhaust and >> radiators, etc. >> >> But, more to the point of the HKS's competition, having owned and flown an >> FSII with the 503 (which comes with everything you need in the box), I'd >> personally be hard pressed to justify about a doubling in price for the HKS. >> >> The 503 with a 3.47:1 C box is around 6 large. It'll run for about 450 to >> 500 hours. Complete rebuild is in the 2 grand range and the C box will last >> as-is for probably 3 engines. Fuel burn on the FSII will be higher, but will >> still only be around 3gph. >> >> Dunno..... I personally still think the 503 is a strong contender for the >> money........ And it's the proven motor for the FSII........... >> >> So again, I'm pretty disappointed in the cost of the HKS. 12 large >> installed is a lot for a 60hp engine....... >> >> LS >> >> -------- >> LS >> Titan II SS >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224911#224911 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:33 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight Addendum: I forgot to add the cost of radiator, and oil injection to the 582 so add another $1000 to its costs and the differential grows to $14,179. At that point I can throw the HKS in the trash, buy a new one and I'm still money ahead. :-} Rick On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Mnflyer wrote: > > Cooling of the HKS is not a problem as posted the engine cyl are oil > cooled, in 300+ hrs I've never had a cooling problem, in fact I can now fly > in much hotter temps than I could with the Rotax 582. > As for cost of the engine yes the HKS is now near $12000.00, the Rotax 912 > is now near $20000.00 and the cost of a new 503 is near $7100.00. The cost > per hour to operate the HKS is less than 1/2 of what it costs to operate the > 582 . Having flown both engine for 300 hrs each I know this from my records > and by my records my HKS is now free after 300 hrs of operation VS the 582 > considering I would now be looking at another $3000.00 overhaul bill and the > increased fuel costs (4.5 gph vs 3 gph), my HKS still has 700 hrs to go till > overhaul, and when comparing operating cost one has to go by the > manufactures TBO not what someone has gotten out of their engine and Rotax > has a 300 hr TBO the HKS has 1000 hrs. > > -------- > GB > MNFlyer > Flying a HKS Kitfox III > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224934#224934 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:52 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing gear Bill=2C I'm not Jim=2C but I can answer your question regarding drilling into the 4130 hardened to R-48. I just drilled into my gear legs a few weeks ago=2C to secure my axles. I failed to drill them before I sent them off to be Rockwell hardened. Big mistake!! Those suckers are ha rd as a bleaping rock!! They were so hard=2C I couldn't get a punch to make a centering hole dent . Suffice to say=2C if you want to do any machining on them=2C do it PRIOR to hardening. Drilling them aft erwards is 20 times as difficult! Mike Welch MkIII +1 degree this morning=2C too cold to work on my plane in the shop. t: Kolb-List: Landing gearTo: kolb-list@matronics.com Jim Hauck- Last May you suggested using steel tubing for the landing legs on a Firefly or old Firestar with the 1" legs. Your suggestion was to go half way down with the 1"=2C and change to 3/4". I am considering steel le gs=2C and wondered about the half way comment. Halfway from the bottom of the "A" frame? I know about using 4130 and hardening to R48. Do you pre-d rill before hardening? I haven't ordered any legs yet=2C but If I go to th e new 1 1/8" Firefly legs I will have to drill out the aluminum tube spacer in there. Also=2C when joining the 1" to the 3/4" do you just run the bolt through the "A" frame at the usual spot=2C or another bolt lower=2C or a weld at th e top and allow the lower joint to move? Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks=2C Ct. 5 degrees and overcast =2C light snow flurries 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Hotmail=AE: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_expl ore_012009 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:08 AM PST US From: "Jim Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing gear Bill; Do all drilling and welding prior to having them heat treated. You want the gear legs to run all the way up in the gear socket till they bottom out at the "V" junction of the gear sockets. On my brothers Fire Star which we made steel gear legs for way back in the late 80's we used 36 " gear legs. This give you more ability to rotate on take off. On the Fire Star, I would use one size tubing for the entire length as it is much heavier than the Fire Fly. Use 1 1/8" .120 wall tubing for your gear legs and for the axle sockets use 7/8 .120 wall tubing. This will fit the 5/8 axle. I would weld tubing for the axle insert at + 7 degrees camber. This will put your wheels about 2 degrees positive when you are in the airplane. When you heat treat the chromemoly tubing it then becomes a spring. If I can help you with anything else feel free to ask. Jim Hauck ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:18 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing gear Jim, If you don't mind a welding question, did you use any special gas when mig welding the Kolb frames or did you just use steel mix. Thanks, Rick On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Jim Hauck wrote: > *Bill;* > ** > *Do all drilling and welding prior to having them heat treated.* > ** > *You want the gear legs to run all the way up in the gear socket till they > bottom out at the "V" junction of the gear sockets.* > ** > *On my brothers Fire Star which we made steel gear legs for way back in > the late 80's we used 36 " gear legs. This give you more ability to rotate > on take off.* > ** > *On the Fire Star, I would use one size tubing for the entire length as it > is much heavier than the Fire Fly.* > ** > *Use 1 1/8" .120 wall tubing for your gear legs and for the axle sockets > use 7/8 .120 wall tubing. This will fit the 5/8 axle.* > ** > *I would weld tubing for the axle insert at + 7 degrees camber. This will > put your wheels about 2 degrees positive when you are in the airplane.* > ** > *When you heat treat the chromemoly tubing it then becomes a spring.* > ** > ** > *If I can help you with anything else feel free to ask.* > ** > *Jim Hauck* > > * > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:59 PM PST US From: "Jim Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing gear Rick; Most of the welding I do on Kolb's, it TIG, when I use MIG I use 25% Argon and 75% CO2. This keeps the splatter down considerably. Jim H ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight From: "lucien" NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > Lucien > > I didn't realize the HKS got that expensive. The HKS is a fine engine that > will give its owners peace of mind that it will not let them down and that > is worth some of the extra cost. The problem here is that again there is no > competition, We need alternatives. > > When fuel prices come back up fuel burn will be a issue again. Most of the > 503 powered FSIIs that I fly with burn about 4 gallons and hour and a bit > more if they are trying to keep up with my VW powered MKIIIC burning 4 > gallons per hour at 74MPH. > > I also didn't realize a 503 was $6,000!!!!! I rest my case...... > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > > --- Well, 5500 with a C box, but close enough..... I dunno, I don't see all these high operational costs of the 2-strokes that most other guys seem to complain about, especially with the 503. I've always just bought em, bolted the boxes on em, installed them on the plane and went flying. I've never gotten a 503 to burn 4gph unless it was close to full throttle at all times, like was the case in my original ultralight when climbing to high altitudes. My FSII did 3gph max, cruising around places at 60 to 65mph. I've been flying the 503 (and a couple 447's) for almost a decade until I got my 912 and I just havn't seen all this expense and trouble. So I'm a little confused...... This isn't to knock the HKS, but it just doesn't seem like it's zounds better than it's competitors. I've already talked about the 503 and the 912 80 horse is only about 5 large away from the 10 large of the HKS. That puts you in a different class of plane you can fly too, such as the kolbra or the mark III (not that the FS isn't a bad plane of course)...... Anyway, just thinking out loud here and don't mean to stir up anything.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224984#224984 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:28 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight Only about a year ago the whole thing was just under $10k. Howard Shackleford FS II SC In a message dated 1/15/2009 10:53:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, fs2kolb@aol.com writes: Close to 12 grand to install an HKS on a FireStar II when you add the exhaust, oil tank, oil cooler, mounting hardware and every thing else. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:15 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Landing gear - Thanks for the prompt responses.- Jim- I may downsize a bit from your recommendations, as this particular plane is probably lighter than the cur rent Firefly.- John thinks it is a very early one, built to Part 103 spec s.- I'll check weights,as I want to add brakes this time. - If you have to drill a spring, spot anneal first.- Drill with lots of coolant, as heat will harden the material as you drill.- I have ended up with some weird looking drill bits finding this out.- Sometimes you don' t know what the steel is, and it can be interesting trying to drill it. - ------------------------- ------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct .. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:26 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Landing gear Bill: The specs Jim gave you are the specs that work. We didn't come up with them the first time around. We tried 1"X.090" heat treated to 42 RC. These were our first steel legs. I didn't know where to start with heat treating. Got the 42 RC from Max Air and went with it. I t was too soft. 48 RC is hard enough, but not too hard. They will bend 90 deg before they break. I have tested them in actual situations. If you go lighter, the system will fail eventually. john h mkIII Thanks for the prompt responses. Jim- I may downsize a bit from your recommendations, as this particular plane is probably lighter than the current Firefly. Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:37 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight From: "lucien" HShack(at)aol.com wrote: > Only about a year ago the whole thing was just under $10k. > Well didn't mean to stir up any broohaha on this, I know the guys who run the HKS love em and it does appear to be a really good engine out in the field. Even I'm a 912 driver these days and hope the sucker stays together for a long while. I'm sure a lot of the increase over the last year is the falling USD. It's fallen against pretty much everything including the JPY, so that's just the cost of doing business. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224994#224994 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:55 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Landing gear - John- Do you think that spec might be a little too ridgid for a 103 pla ne?- Gross weight will be about 475 total.- Jim's original letter of Ma y 19, 2008 gave me the lighter spec legs. - ------------------------- -------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ---------------------Windsor Lock s, Ct. 8 degrees, and going to -1 tonight ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:36 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Landing gear Bill: Those are the legs I flew very successfully with on my 1986 original Firest ar. Once heat treated, the legs are springs. john h mkIII John- Do you think that spec might be a little too ridgid for a 1 03 plane? Gross weight will be about 475 total. Jim's original letter of May 19, 2008 gave me the lighter spec legs. Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:09 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Landing gear - I'll drill the sockets for the 1 1/8", if the weather ever gets warmer. - Thanks. - ------------------------- ---------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ---------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:32 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Landing gear Bill: My original FS came with 1" aluminum legs. I bent them taxiing before I ev en got in the air the first time. Tried Twinstar legs, 1.125", and bent them too. Then we started working on some heat treated steel legs. I had to remove the aluminum tube sleeve from the gear leg sockets. Made a simple home made slide hammer and went to work. Took a little effort but the sleeves lost the battle. I also had to clean up some places where the welds had burned through before I could get the legs all the way into the s ocket up to the intersection where they bottomed out. We used gear leg/axle sockets initially. After a couple failures, we start ed welding the axle sockets to the bottom of the gear legs. That fixed tha t problem. john h mkIII I'll drill the sockets for the 1 1/8", if the weather ever gets w armer. Thanks. Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:55 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Kolb-List: HKS flight Pat Ladd wrote nice pics but I notice that you had nearly 5000 on the altimeter. I assume that is not AGL. Is it usual to use that setting.? That was the altitude above Sea Level that I was flying, here when ever you go into an airport they give you on the ATIS channel the altimeter setting - 30.1 - whatever it may be and that sets your altimeter to the correct altitude. Since most of the areas rarely have the same barometric pressure just setting it to 0 when you are on the ground would quite likely not be the correct altitude for entering the traffic pattern. Rick Girard wrote- Larry, From HKS Operation Manual, page 10: 3.8 Cylinder head temperature Max. permissible cylinder head temperature (Measured on the hottest cylinder): 170 Deg. C (338 Deg. F) Rick Girard wrote- Some how or the other I managed to lose my manual ( I have since found it on the internet and printed up a new copy) I went on line and found a site with "specs" and it said that the max temps were 446. Might have been a typo. Thanks for the correction. "Thom Riddle" wrote Larry, Couple of questions: How far away is your nearest neighbor? What are the 5.0 and 5 (integer) on your EIS measuring? I know the others... I think. Nearest neighbor is three miles away, after that the distance really gets up there. :-) The middle figures 5.0 is my #1 aux and that tells me that I have a full five gallons of fuel in which ever tank I am drawing out of. I have two 5 gal tanks and control which be a valve. The other one (lower) is #2 aux, and I do not use it. 5 is the default. Rick Neilsen wrote- Most of the 503 powered FSIIs that I fly with burn about 4 gallons and hour My 503 always burned 4 gph no matter what throttle setting I used. I have never understood why, it just did. Someone mentioned that the price for the HKS was almost the cost of an entire new plane. That may be true, I know that I could have bought probably a couple of 150's for the money that I have invested in the Firestar, but then I really like this plane more than I would one of those or any other plane that I could think of. Including a Mark III or even a Kolbra. The sucker suits me and my area better than anything else I could get. I also penciled the cost out and figured that I would be money way ahead if I can get the bugs worked out. It should last me without having to rebuild until I am most likely not safe to fly any more. I don't know about the rest of you, but I had trouble justifying my flights when the gas was up so high. I believe that I can assure you that with the recent elections, and the ruling party in power, that there is going to be little done to ease the fuel shortage any time soon. I did not have any problems with the 503 that I had. I never worried about dropping 700 feet down into any of these canyons on the Owyhee. What did give me fits was that my range was so short without throwing in another 5 gallon tank in the back. That it cut into my camping gear and therefore my comfort entirely too much. Not to mention that it is 120 miles to decent gas, and the 4 gph cut into the number of trips that I could take before I had to go get more gas. I synchronized my carbs today, and I want to thank whoever that clever person was who mentioned that you could do it with bing tubing. I put a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil in the tubing to act as level and managed to get them set. I didn't get to go to as high throttle setting as I would have liked since I was working alone and standing on a ladder in front of the wing to do it, but it is a hell of a lot closer than it was. I was hoping that it would reduce the CHT heat, but that was just wishful thinking. After I finished I rolled it out and took off to see if there would be any difference. It was smoother but not cooler. The OAT was 49, I too am wondering what its going to be like at 95 degrees this summer. I was surprised to find that the engine did not go as high on the RPM's today as it did before I worked on the carbs. Could it just be the difference in atmosphere or what? Ideas welcomed. The plane flies hands off with no climb at 5300 but the CHT was 328 degrees while the oil temps were less than 170. Not sure what to think. I know the engine is tight and needs to be broken in, but is it that tight? Larry C, Oregon ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:48 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS flight When you get ready to throw your HKS in the trash can use mine will yea Ellery in Fridgid Maine do not archive In a message dated 1/15/2009 1:25:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes: Addendum: I forgot to add the cost of radiator, and oil injection to the 582 so add another $1000 to its costs and the differential grows to $14,179. At that point I can throw the HKS in the trash, buy a new one and I'm still money ahead. :-} Rick On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Mnflyer <_gbsb2002@yahoo.com_ (mailto:gbsb2002@yahoo.com) > wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mnflyer" <_gbsb2002@yahoo.com_ (mailto:gbsb2002@yahoo.com) > Cooling of the HKS is not a problem as posted the engine cyl are oil cooled, in 300+ hrs I've never had a cooling problem, in fact I can now fly in much hotter temps than I could with the Rotax 582. As for cost of the engine yes the HKS is now near $12000.00, the Rotax 912 is now near $20000.00 and the cost of a new 503 is near $7100.00. The cost per hour to operate the HKS is less than 1/2 of what it costs to operate the 582 . Having flown both engine for 300 hrs each I know this from my records and by my records my HKS is now free after 300 hrs of operation VS the 582 considering I would now be looking at another $3000.00 overhaul bill and the increased fuel costs (4.5 gph vs 3 gph), my HKS still has 700 hrs to go till overhaul, and when comparing operating cost one has to go by the manufactures TBO not what someone has gotten out of their engine and Rotax has a 300 hr TBO the HKS has 1000 hrs. -------- GB MNFlyer Flying a HKS Kitfox III Read this topic online here: _http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224934#224934_ (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224934#224934) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:44 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: fabric rubbing on cage tubes From: "cristalclear13" Have any of you ever seen anything similar to what I have attached here in the photos? I am getting some fretting corrosion where the fabric is tight against the aluminum tubes on the cockpit cage. I've received two suggestions...one to put some thin adhesive-backed weatherstripping between the tubes and fabric...another to use some clear duct tape on the tube to keep the fabric from rubbing it. Keep in mind the fabric is really tight and I don't think I'll be able to easily get much of anything between the tubes and the fabric. When you build these planes is there any instruction to put anything between the tubes and fabric? -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225022#225022 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2008_12_20_cage_tubing_next_to_fabric_581.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/2008_12_20_cage_tubing_next_to_fabric2_840.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/2008_12_20_black_oily_substance_leaking_through_fabric_923.jpg ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Web Site Updates From: "George Alexander" Kolbers: Added Plane Crazzzy's (Mike Pierzina) Trailer and a link to Malcolm Morrison's web site to my web site. Shivering at 58F this morning in SW FL. Fun, Safe, Warm Flying! DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- George Alexander FS II R503 N709FS http://gtalexander.home.att.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225023#225023 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:24 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Weather -22 this evening and expected to go lower Maine the way life should be, Who's idea is this any way? Ellery in Maine do not archive Shivering at 58F this morning in SW FL. George Alexander **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:21 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes From: "The BaronVonEvil" Hi Cristal, It could be that the tubes themselves are moving and have come loose at their attach points. A careful inspection will need to done to find out if this is the case. You might be able to re-glue the fabric to the tubes once you know what finishing system was used to cover the plane. You may have to partially remove the finish in a band along the tubes, re-glue the fabric to the tubes, add reinforcing tape and rib stitch the fabric to the tubes where the fabric is rubbing. Then reapply the needed coatings and repaint the color back on in the repair areas. Otherwise you may have to recover the whole fuselage and rib stitch the fabric to the tubes to keep it from chaffing/rubbing. No easy answers here unfortunately. Best Regards Carlos G. AKA BaronVonEvil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225036#225036 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:16 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fabric rubbing on cage tubes the fact that you know what fretting corrosion is impresses me. Are you sure it is only a metallic substance and not oil? I would go with the packing tape suggestion if you can get it in there, otherwise maybe one of those skinny venetian blind slats? BB On 15, Jan 2009, at 10:50 PM, cristalclear13 wrote: > > > Have any of you ever seen anything similar to what I have attached > here in the photos? > I am getting some fretting corrosion where the fabric is tight > against the aluminum tubes on the cockpit cage. > I've received two suggestions...one to put some thin adhesive- > backed weatherstripping between the tubes and fabric...another to > use some clear duct tape on the tube to keep the fabric from > rubbing it. > Keep in mind the fabric is really tight and I don't think I'll be > able to easily get much of anything between the tubes and the fabric. > > When you build these planes is there any instruction to put > anything between the tubes and fabric? > > -------- > Cristal Waters > Kolb Mark II Twinstar > Rotax 503 DCSI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225022#225022 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ > 2008_12_20_cage_tubing_next_to_fabric_581.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ > 2008_12_20_cage_tubing_next_to_fabric2_840.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ > 2008_12_20_black_oily_substance_leaking_through_fabric_923.jpg > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.