---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/02/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:17 AM - Broken tail FireStar 2 (frank.goodnight) 2. 05:49 AM - Flying videos (grantr) 3. 06:07 AM - Re: Flying videos (Luke) 4. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts (zeprep251@aol.com) 5. 06:35 AM - Re: Flying videos (Jack B. Hart) 6. 06:43 AM - Re: Flying videos (grantr) 7. 07:05 AM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (zeprep251@aol.com) 8. 07:34 AM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 9. 07:38 AM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (frank.goodnight) 10. 10:08 AM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (John Hauck) 11. 11:09 AM - Re:Broken tail FireStar 2 (Arksey@aol.com) 12. 11:37 AM - Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts (Jimmy Young) 13. 12:59 PM - Re: Video In High Definition: Flying My Kolb MK III Xtra (grantr) 14. 02:41 PM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (Dana Hague) 15. 03:16 PM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (John Hauck) 16. 07:05 PM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (Dana Hague) 17. 07:21 PM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (John Hauck) 18. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Video In High Definition: Flying My Kolb MK III Xtra (JR) 19. 07:34 PM - Re: Broken tail FireStar 2 (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:49 AM PST US From: "frank.goodnight" Subject: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 At 60 hrs and no rough handling the short cromemolly tube that is welded to the ring that is attached to the tail boom broke. there are 2 stubs , one on top of the ring and one on the bottom. The one on the bottom broke. Also the very bottom aluminum tube broke. My vertical stabalizer is very nearly ready to leave the A/C. I fold my plane every time I fly , so I was lucky enough to have my face a foot from the break when I went to attach my tail wires. The tail had moved enough to tear the fabric , but it would have been hard to catch on a normal preflight if had been left unfolded. After talking to Travis and Dennis at Kolb we found out that the factory had left out 3 gussets when they welded up the tailpost They have sent me the gussets and enough tubeing to make a repair. Also I talked to Brian Milborne and he said that someone had just called him about a wrinkle in the fabric in the area we are talking about . That plane will be coming to Brian for a condition inspection soon, So maby Brian will have more to say after he looks at it. Frank Goodnight HKS FireStar 2 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:41 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Flying videos From: "grantr" Some low level flying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqdo3rCKBRg&fmt=18 More low level plus rough air http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DluFHb11JCs&fmt=18 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228135#228135 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flying videos From: "Luke" While watching your videos I ran across another video I had never seen before that had a couple Kolbs in it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwgoPsfqrwo -------- "The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228139#228139 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts From: zeprep251@aol.com Mike, =C2- Good point.I Never considered that movement,only the folding action.U sed the soft yellow 1/4" line,but had to extend the support upward about 1"w ith 1/8"4130 plates and steel spacers to help the trim.Only used the spacers for a couple hours before modifying the mount.I may have run into trouble i f I had kept them in.The MK-3 has stainless brackets and it's easy to tensio n lightly.I only have wear on the passenger side bolt.I have changed it twic e in 200hrs.I thought the higher rpm ,3100,may be rattling things around bac k there.I can remove almost all the free play with a new bolt.The plating mu st be softer than the stainless. =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2- Thanks, G. Aman -----Original Message----- From: Mike Welch Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 5:31 pm Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts Gary, As I understood your description of "spacers", I got the impression you mi ght not have been aware of the stabilizer's fore/aft movement. If you are aware, great. I thought you meant metal sleeves as spacers. This would cause bad juju. (Swa hili for "Oh crap!") Does using fuel line allow for easy lubrication of this attachment point? I guess as long as you20completely dissasemble the pieces periodically, and cl ean any dirt, etc, and then reassemble all the clean lubed pieces, this would keep the bolts in good condition for a long time. It has been awhile since I have observed the attach point movement. If I recall correctly, it's about a half an inch. (No, I don't think this qualifi es as weight shift.) Will the fuel line compress easily and sufficiently to wo rk okay? Mike Welch MkIII Turbo GEO engine being assembled BTW. It should be appreciated by all that Jimmie brought this to everyone's attention. With a couple of others guys showing similar wear, maybe we shou ld make a point of replacing all wearable bolts every 2nd annual, or whatever w orks out long before a bolt becomes too weak to be safe. ________________________________ > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 19:15:50 -0500 > From: zeprep251@aol.com > > > Sorry Mike, > > I used fuel line to space it on the FS. On the MK-3 it's all stainless tab s and it wears the bolt plating before the stainless,but I can put a little tension on the tangs with the nyloc nut.I still lube it and everything else that moves.The tail wheel is the most problem with dirt. > > Gary Aman MK-3 Jab 2200 405hrs > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Welch > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 9:43 am > > Subject: RE: Kolb-Lis t: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts > > > zeprep251, (do you not sign your name?) > > > You can NOT add a spacer to the forward horizontal stabilizer attach bolts (to > > put the bolt in very light tension). The entire stabilizer slides forward and > > backwards every time the elevator is moved up or down. You will break something > > immediately, if you remove the ability of the stabilizer to slide for and aft. > > > Mike Welch > > MkIII > > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: > Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts > > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 11:13:31 -0500 > > From: zeprep251@aol.com > > > If these bolts are left loose,vibration makes them spin.Using a spacer on the > > bolt,if you don't fold it frequently,allows you to put the bolt in very li ght > > tension.If you fold it ,you have to be sure the clearances do not change before > > you add any tension or you introduce bending forces.By shaking it up and d own > > during your preflight check,you can even tell when it wears through the ca d > > plating . > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: WillUribe@aol.com > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 7:13 am > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts > > > Hi Jimmy, > > Thanks for the heads up, found my A3-10 bolts a little worn so I replaced them > > before I flew yes terday. > > > Regards, > > Will Uribe > > FireStar II > > El Paso, TX > > http://gtalexander.home.att.net/kolb.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live=84=A2: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. > > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_ 012009 > > > =0 > A > > > ________________________________ > Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=84=A2: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009 =====================3D=== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:32 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flying videos At 05:48 AM 2/2/09 -0800, you wrote: > >Some low level flying >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqdo3rCKBRg&fmt=18 > > More low level plus rough air >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DluFHb11JCs&fmt=18 > > Grant, Looks like you are holding a lot of left rudder. Is this due to flying without a passenger? Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:57 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flying videos From: "grantr" Jack, That is a camera illusion. I am not holding any rudder while flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228149#228149 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 From: zeprep251@aol.com Frank, ?I also broke those parts,but I was using the brakes.to swing the plane around when parking and put a lot of twisting load on things.The first thing to fail was the aluminum tube that goes from the bottom of the tail post up to the tail boom,right where it leaves the steel.Replaced it with a thicker tube,then broke the bottom stub tube at the ring you mentioned shortly after,but I was really watching things closely every time I folded by then.Drilled the tail assy off and had it welded, with some gussets,ordered a full swivel tail wheel assy. from Travis and modified it to use the stock tail wheel.Other than the pain from hack sawing the new tail wheel? assy. in two,it has stayed intact.I thought I was the cause of the failure by the way I drug the wheel sideways when turning.You were not doing that? ????????????????????????? G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: frank.goodnight Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 5:15 am Subject: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 ? At 60 hrs and no rough handling the short cromemolly tube that is welded to the ring that is attached to the tail boom broke. there are 2 stubs , one on top of the ring and one on the bottom.? The one on the bottom broke. Also the very bottom aluminum tube broke. My vertical stabalizer is very nearly ready to leave the A/C. I fold my plane every time I fly , so I was lucky enough to? have my face a foot from the break when I went to attach my tail wires. The tail had moved enough to tear the fabric , but it would have been hard to catch on a normal preflight if had been left unfolded.? ? ? After talking to Travis and Dennis at Kolb we found out that the factory had left out 3 gussets when they welded up the tailpost They have sent me the gussets? and enough tubeing to make a repair.? ? ? Also I talked to Brian Milborne and he said that someone had just called him about a wrinkle in the fabric in the area we are talking about . That plane will be coming to Brian for a condition inspection? soon, So maby Brian will have more to say after he looks at it.? ? Frank Goodnight? HKS FireStar 2? ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:49 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 A friend of mine's FSII broke in the same place. It seems that this is a weak link in a lot of Kolbs (normally high time) even with gussets. I bolted aluminum straps (1 X 1/8) from the sides of the fuselage tube to the lower vertical stabilizer to keep mine from breaking. John H 1st reported this as a weak point and suggested a similar fix on his MKIII. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "frank.goodnight" Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:15 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 > > > At 60 hrs and no rough handling the short cromemolly tube that is welded > to the ring that is attached to the tail boom broke. there are 2 stubs , > one on top of the ring and one on the bottom. > The one on the bottom broke. Also the very bottom aluminum tube broke. My > vertical stabalizer is very nearly ready to leave the A/C. I fold my > plane every time I fly , so I was lucky enough to > have my face a foot from the break when I went to attach my tail wires. > The tail had moved enough to tear the fabric , but it would have been > hard to catch on a normal preflight if had been left unfolded. > > After talking to Travis and Dennis at Kolb we found out that the > factory had left out 3 gussets when they welded up the tailpost the top stub and 2 on the bottom> They have sent me the gussets > and enough tubeing to make a repair. > > Also I talked to Brian Milborne and he said that someone had just > called him about a wrinkle in the fabric in the area we are talking about > . That plane will be coming to Brian for a condition inspection > soon, So maby Brian will have more to say after he looks at it. > > Frank Goodnight > HKS FireStar 2 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:28 AM PST US From: "frank.goodnight" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 Yes I have locked one brake , added about 1/2 power to turn around in a tight place . When I talked to Travis I explained , He said it was not a very good thing to do , however most Kolb drivers do it at one time or another. I won"t do it again. I also ordered a full swivel tail wheel. Why did you replace the wheel that came with full swivel unit with the original one? Thanks for your input. Frank Goodnight HKS FireStar 2 I guess the point of my post was so other FireStar owners will be aware that the tail assy. CAN break. Incidentally the people at Kolb told me that they had never heard of those parts breaking. On Feb 2, 2009, at 9:00 AM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote: > Frank, > I also broke those parts,but I was using the brakes.to swing the > plane around when parking and put a lot of twisting load on > things.The first thing to fail was the aluminum tube that goes from > the bottom of the tail post up to the tail boom,right where it > leaves the steel.Replaced it with a thicker tube,then broke the > bottom stub tube at the ring you mentioned shortly after,but I was > really watching things closely every time I folded by then.Drilled > the tail assy off and had it welded, with some gussets,ordered a > full swivel tail wheel assy. from Travis and modified it to use the > stock tail wheel.Other than the pain from hack sawing the new tail > wheel assy. in two,it has stayed intact.I thought I was the cause > of the failure by the way I drug the wheel sideways when turning.You > were not doing that? > G.Aman > -----Original Message----- > From: frank.goodnight > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 5:15 am > Subject: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 > > > > > At 60 hrs and no rough handling the short cromemolly tube that is > welded to the ring that is attached to the tail boom broke. there > are 2 stubs , one on top of the ring and one on the bottom. > The one on the bottom broke. Also the very bottom aluminum tube > broke. My vertical stabalizer is very nearly ready to leave the A/C. > I fold my plane every time I fly , so I was lucky enough to > have my face a foot from the break when I went to attach my tail > wires. The tail had moved enough to tear the fabric , but it would > have been hard to catch on a normal preflight if had been left > unfolded. > > After talking to Travis and Dennis at Kolb we found out that the > factory had left out 3 gussets when they welded up the tailpost on the top stub and 2 on the bottom> They have sent me the gussets > and enough tubeing to make a repair. > > Also I talked to Brian Milborne and he said that someone had just > called him about a wrinkle in the fabric in the area we are talking > about . That plane will be coming to Brian for a condition inspection > soon, So maby Brian will have more to say after he looks at it. > > Frank Goodnight > HKS FireStar 2 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:34 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 > A friend of mine's FSII broke in the same place. It seems that this is a > weak link in a lot of Kolbs (normally high time) even with gussets. I > bolted aluminum straps (1 X 1/8) from the sides of the fuselage tube to > the lower vertical stabilizer to keep mine from breaking. John H 1st > reported this as a weak point and suggested a similar fix on his MKIII. > > Rick Neilsen Rick N: Here are a few photos of what I did, plus one that Gary Haley did with aluminum strap. I have some photos of my tail post after modifying and prior to covering. If I run across them, I will post. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:57 AM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Re:Broken tail FireStar 2 I had a crack in the vert. stab. tube between the tail wheel and the main boom. I got a tube from Travis at kolb that they turned down to slide into the vert. stab. tube. I remove only enough fabric to work on the cracked area, hacked sawed it completely off, cleaned it up, inserted turned down tube so that there was several inch's above and below the break ( I could spring the tail wheel to one side and insert the turned tube up into the vert. stab tube and then bring it back down into the lower part of tube), used J P Weld on the tube before inserting. I put a bolt thru the vert stab tube above and below the break and thru the inserted tube. This was quite easy to do and I did not have to tear it all apart to weld it. I feel it is a safe repair and has help up ok for the last year...I am also going to put the braces on that John H. has shown. Yes it pays to look things over. Cold and snow up here in Michigan, looking forward to spring and flying. Jswan do not archive JSWAN firestar ll michigan **************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. ntent/products/features.aspx/laptops_great_deals?c=us%26cs=19%26l=en%26s=d hs%26~ck=anavml) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:01 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts From: "Jimmy Young" >>I think Jimmy Y has a unique problem based on an engine hard mounted to the airframe. -------- Jimmy Young FS II, Generac V-Twin Houston TX area Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228197#228197 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:49 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Video In High Definition: Flying My Kolb MK III Xtra From: "grantr" Mike, I cant watch your video in HD it is choppy. Even when I pause and let the video load a bit it still is choppy. BTW how did you get the video to upload in HD? I tried uploading a MPEG 4 a while back and it will not allow HD. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228205#228205 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:08 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 At 01:02 PM 2/2/2009, John Hauck wrote: >Here are a few photos of what I did, plus one that Gary Haley did with >aluminum strap. > >I have some photos of my tail post after modifying and prior to covering. >If I run across them, I will post. I like that... the same area has always concerned me on my US (especially with the 1/16" tail brace wires), though I've had no problems so far. Was that an existing bolt in the tube or did you drill out one of the rivets? It doesn't look like you have an "H" section inside the tube like the US, though, is this correct? I'm also tempted to redo the elevator connection like that, instead of the US arrangement where I have to install the pin and ring every time I unfold the tail. -Dana do not archive -- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history... with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:42 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 > I like that... the same area has always concerned me on my US (especially > with the 1/16" tail brace wires), though I've had no problems so far. Was > that an existing bolt in the tube or did you drill out one of the rivets? > It doesn't look like you have an "H" section inside the tube like the US, > though, is this correct? > > I'm also tempted to redo the elevator connection like that, instead of the > US arrangement where I have to install the pin and ring every time I > unfold the tail. > > -Dana Dana: The photo of the aluminum strap is Gary Haley's mkIII. I'm sure he drilled out a rivet in the ring and a new hole in the lower vertical stabilizer tube. Dan Horton came up with the idea for the external braces on my tail post, after several attempts at strengthening it with gussets. He ovalized some 3/8 or 1/2" 4130 tubes, we didn't have and streamlined ones, then welded to the tail post ring and the bottom tube. MKIII does not use tubes, rather a ring for tail post attachment. Most folks think the wire bracing on the tail section is for bracing. Not true. Their function in life is to keep the vertical and horizontal stabilizers positioned. The only lateral bracing on the tail post is where the top and bottom stub tubes are welded to the top and bottom of the tail post ring. On the ground, especially without a full swivel tail wheel, there are tremendous lateral loads placed on the tail post in the area of the ring. Those two little external braces do a good job of beefing up lateral strength in the tail post. I installed mine in 2004, after I discovered the tail post had broken in two at the bottom of the ring. This happened within days of my return from Alaska. I was very fortunate. If I was flying an Ultrastar, I think I would got to 3/32" tail wires. I flew mine with 1/16" wire, but that was 25 years ago. I lot of experience has flowed under the bridge since then. I look at a lot of "stuff" quite differently now than I did back then. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:40 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 At 06:14 PM 2/2/2009, John Hauck wrote: >The photo of the aluminum strap is Gary Haley's mkIII. I'm sure he >drilled out a rivet in the ring and a new hole in the lower vertical >stabilizer tube. Makes sense... lacking the ring, though, I'd have to rivet something to the back of the tube, but I could use the existing bolt at the bottom that holds the tailwheel strut in. >Most folks think the wire bracing on the tail section is for bracing. Not >true. Their function in life is to keep the vertical and horizontal >stabilizers positioned. Well, the certainly brace the horizontal stabilizer! But no, they don't do anything to brace the tailpost. I'd love to go with a swivel tailwheel, if I could find one light enough. -Dana do not archive -- Q: Why is it that New Jersey got all the toxic waste dumps and California got all the lawyers? A: New Jersey had first choice. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:28 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Hague" Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:01 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 > > At 06:14 PM 2/2/2009, John Hauck wrote: > >>The photo of the aluminum strap is Gary Haley's mkIII. I'm sure he >>drilled out a rivet in the ring and a new hole in the lower vertical >>stabilizer tube. > > Makes sense... lacking the ring, though, I'd have to rivet something to > the back of the tube, but I could use the existing bolt at the bottom that > holds the tailwheel strut in. > >>Most folks think the wire bracing on the tail section is for bracing. Not >>true. Their function in life is to keep the vertical and horizontal >>stabilizers positioned. > > Well, the certainly brace the horizontal stabilizer! But no, they don't > do anything to brace the tailpost. > > I'd love to go with a swivel tailwheel, if I could find one light enough. > > -Dana > > do not archive > > -- > Q: Why is it that New Jersey got all the toxic waste dumps and California > got all the lawyers? > A: New Jersey had first choice. > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:32 PM PST US From: "JR" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Video In High Definition: Flying My Kolb MK III Xtra Beautiful glades, beautiful kolb, and more beautiful wife... thanks for sharing! ----- Original Message ----- From: "grantr" Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:59 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Video In High Definition: Flying My Kolb MK III Xtra > > Mike, > > I cant watch your video in HD it is choppy. Even when I pause and let the > video load a bit it still is choppy. > > BTW how did you get the video to upload in HD? I tried uploading a MPEG 4 > a while back and it will not allow HD. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228205#228205 > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:04 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Broken tail FireStar 2 Sorry about that. Fired a blank. john h mkIII ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.