---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/21/09: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:42 AM - Re: video (Luke) 2. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: weight question (Richard Girard) 3. 09:47 AM - Flying to Sun 'n Fun - and maybe MV! (TheWanderingWench) 4. 10:31 AM - Re: Flying to Sun 'n Fun - and maybe MV! (Thom Riddle) 5. 12:11 PM - Any KOLBs in South Florida? (Fran Losey) 6. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: weight question (Dana Hague) 7. 01:08 PM - turnbuckles (clrprop) 8. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: weight question (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 9. 02:16 PM - Re: Flying to Sun 'n Fun - and maybe MV! (John Hauck) 10. 02:31 PM - Re: withdrawal symptoms (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 11. 02:42 PM - Re: weight question (ces308) 12. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: weight question (John Hauck) 13. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: weight question (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 14. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: weight question (John Hauck) 15. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: weight question (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 16. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: weight question (John Hauck) 17. 06:12 PM - Re: weight question (ces308) 18. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: weight question (John Hauck) 19. 06:49 PM - Re: Re: weight question (zeprep251@aol.com) 20. 07:09 PM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (zeprep251@aol.com) 21. 07:32 PM - Re: weight question (ces308) 22. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: weight question (zeprep251@aol.com) 23. 07:53 PM - Re: weight question (ces308) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:06 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: video From: "Luke" Beautiful area. I'm jealous. I need to buy a Kolb :) do not archive -------- "The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231345#231345 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question From: Richard Girard Chris, et al, I'm not trying to be critical here, but if ever there was an illustration of backward thinking, this idea of figuring up the total load for a finished aircraft by adding up the weights and then calling this the maximum gross is it.Any aircraft should be designed from the start with a structure to accommodate a given maximum gross weight. By doing this the designer sets the safety margin of the aircraft structure FOR THAT LOAD. The wing is sized for the maximum lift coefficient required to lift that load, as well the size of the horizontal stabilizer required to counter the pitching moment of the airfoil selected. And on and on. This is an iterative process by which all things required to accomodate the design maximum gross weight are adjusted until they meet this requirement. When you go about this in the backward manner suggested you are decreasing that safety margin of the aircraft's structure. You're increasing the required lift to get it into the air and keep it there and since you can't change this without changing the size of the wing your only option is to increase the speed of takeoff, cruise, and stall. Once again, and on and on. What your job, as builder, is to keep that maximum gross weight in mind at all times when you decide to make a change or add an accessory to the aircraft. As Burt Rutan always told his builders who asked about adding things to their aircraft, "Throw it up in the air, if it comes back down it's too heavy". What you shouldn't do is arbitrarily increase the maximum gross weight to accommodate the bloated aircraft you've built, unless you know and accept how much you have DECREASED the structural safety margin, controllability, and efficiency of your aircraft. You have, however, given me a great topic for our EAA chapter newsletter. Rick do not archive On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:55 PM, ces308 wrote: > > Hello Rick and all.... > I finally got my M3X home and getting it finished up for this spring.My > airplane has a Jab 2200 on it and is fairly loaded up and when I did the > weight and balance for the plane ,the empty weight came out to 596.2 lbs. I > called Brian and he said to set the gross weight for my airplane at 1150 lbs > and that would be no problem. I was glad to here ,Rick , that yours with the > VW came in at 598.I was also told they figure the empty weight plus full > fuel,and 2 passengers for the gross weight.(for a 2 place airplane that is). > > chris ambrose > ces308@ldaco.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231305#231305 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:16 AM PST US From: TheWanderingWench Subject: Kolb-List: Flying to Sun 'n Fun - and maybe MV! Hi Kolbers - I'm going to pull a John Hauck - I'm planning on taking off on Saturday, March 28 from my home field in Sandy, Oregon and flying my single seat Maxair Drifter to Sun 'n Fun (and back.) And on the return flight, hoping to join you at the MV fly-in. I've been dreaming about doing this for about 4-5 years, and the time seems right. In my speaking presentations,(I earn my living doing keynote speeches and consulting with organizations) I urge audiences to create "big, hairy, bodacious goals" for themselves. This extreme flight is MY big, hairy, bodacious goal. Flying to Florida and back has become more than a goal; it's become an obsession! At first this flight was just about the flying adventure. Then as folks started hearing about what I was going to do, I got e-mails and phone calls telling me that my flight was an inspiration to them, and that just hearing about what I was planning caused them to question their own self-imposed limits. I realized that I could use this flight as a platform to carry my message of thinking boldly and living life with passion. I'm passionate about sharing this message, especially with girls and women. Not that I want to leave you guys out - it's just that the message seems especially important for folks of the female persuasion. Lynda Meeks, the founder of Girls With Wings, says: "Research has proven that we can expose our girls to the opportunities available to them, but unless we can give them real life examples of women who have achieved their dreams, girls have difficulty picturing themselves doing the same." I believe that's true for "grown up girls" as well." I decided to use this flight to promote Girls With Wings, an organization using women in aviation to encourage girls to reach their full potential. I'll bring "Penelope Pilot" along on the flight. The Penelope Pilot Project seeks to increase girls' participation in aviation events and activities, as well as encourage girls to test their wings in other ways. I was also contacted by Dean Billing, who runs a grass-roots national organization campaigning to get enthanol-free gas available at airports. I'll send out a separate e-mail about Dean's organization, because I think we all should support it - look it up on the web at www.e0pc.com I'll be carrying e0pc's message on the flight also, with e0pc decals on my boom tube and a single sheet flyer that I'll be posting on FBO message boards. At first it looked as though I'd be making the flight by myselfand I had a lot of fears about that. Then, to my great joy, a good friend and flying buddy called to tell me he wants to fly the entire route with me, if he can get his ultralight ready in time. And other ultralight pilots have shown interest in joining us at various points, for varying amounts of time. If you live along our route, join us for part of the flight! You'll be able to follow the flight online via a blog. I'll include pictures and details of the flight. I'll probably begin the blog in the next week or so, writing about what we're doing to prepare for the flight: preflight planning, logistical support details, discussion of weather and other issues. I'll publish a map as part of the blog. There's already some stuff on it - at http://www.lessonsfromtheedge.com/uladventure2009.htm Right now, our plan is to leave on Saturday, March 28, fly south through western Oregon into California following I-5. We'll connect with I-10 in southern California and follow it east to Florida and Sun 'n Fun. The return flight will take us slightly further north, through Oklahoma and northern New Mexico, to Monument Valley, the Great Salt Lake, Idaho and back into Oregon. The flight will be approximately 7500 miles and will take approximately seven weeks. Of course, weather will be the deciding factor as to how we'll tweak our flight route plans. So wish us clear skies and tailwinds in both directions! Arty Trost Sandy, Oregon www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com http://www.lessonsfromtheedge.com/uladventure2009.htm "Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:05 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flying to Sun 'n Fun - and maybe MV! From: "Thom Riddle" Arty, I'm sure I speak for the other Kolbers when I say, "You Go Girl". I've got two daughters who I tried to teach those principles to and it seems to have taken. Neither of them like to fly but they are both pretty courageous. Keep us posted on your progress, along the way, if you can or after the fact, if not. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231397#231397 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:15 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: "Fran Losey" To all, I have been registered in the KOLB group for about a month now, watching the group interact and peaking my interest with excellent questions and comments. Some of you have valuable websites, that I have been researching and discovering just what is involved in undertaking such a project. I must say that I am at the counter, ready to purchase a KOLB Mark III kit, but have not had the opportunity to see physically see one in person. I was disappointed there was not a single KOLB at Sebring, however I did get the opportunity to meet with Rick Nielson and George Alexander, and truly appreciated their time spent with me. I live between West Palm Beach and Ft. Lauderdale, and would welcome traveling to a South Florida location to see a project in process, or see a completed bird and hear builder, owner and operator experiences before I take the plunge (Gulp!). Sincerely, Mr. Fran Losey 954-495-0878 Cell Fran.losey@alber.com or loseyf@comcast.net -------- loseyf@comcast.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231417#231417 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:55 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question At 09:56 AM 2/21/2009, Richard Girard wrote: >Chris, et al, I'm not trying to be critical here, but if ever there was an >illustration of backward thinking, this idea of figuring up the total load >for a finished aircraft by adding up the weights and then calling this the >maximum gross is it. >Any aircraft should be designed from the start with a structure to >accommodate a given maximum gross weight. By doing this the designer sets >the safety margin of the aircraft structure FOR THAT LOAD... While I agree with you, in general, there are a few caveats that may make it reasonable for an aircraft builder to specify a higher gross weight on the paperwork. First, the gross weight is, as you say, set by structural and/or performance considerations. Both of these take into account all possible flight conditions... for example, performance at max density altitude, structural strength in turbulence, etc. What is a safe loading in one set of conditions may be unsafe in other conditions, etc. If an aircraft is structurally safe to fly 3G turns at max gross on a bumpy day, then it's likely just as safe to fly, say, 10% over gross on a calm day with the pilot flying gently. Similarly, an airplane with barely adequate climb at (or even under) gross on a hot humid day may well perform much better, even over gross, on a cold clear day (in fact, IIRC it's legal in Alaska to fly a certain amount over gross under certain conditions). Also consider all the aircraft that are utility category at one gross weight, and normal category (with lower G limits) at a higher weight. In such conditions, having the higher weight limit specified on the airworthiness certificate (which is purely a legal document, after all) may well prevent problems in the event of an incident where the FAA decides to investigate. Does this mean that a builder should arbitrarily set the gross weight at whatever he wishes? Of course not. But it does mean that an informed builder should consider all the facts, including the type of flying he'll be doing, before putting down any number on that piece of paper. -Dana -- Bill of Rights: Void where Prohibited by Law ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:45 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: turnbuckles From: "clrprop" I'm going to replace the cables that brace the tail on my Mark III. Should I go with the 7x19 strand 3/32 ? I also want to use turnbuckles. Can someone give me a part number for the correct ones to use? Thanks, Keath T Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231424#231424 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:00:07 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question Chris First and foremost is my concern is for everyone's safety. I had a discussion years ago with the owner of Kolb at the time who had worked for Homer Kolb doing some of the design work for the MKIII, was their test pilot, and engineer. My question was how firm is the gross weight of a MKIII. If I remember the response correctly he said that the MKIII is the most conservatively rated Kolb in regards to gross weight. The weight can be increased a bit if it is flown in smooth air. His biggest concern seemed to be how well the plane is built. He would not budge on the 1000 lb. maximum gross weight recommendation. I have great admiration for Brian's work on Kolb airplanes. If the gross weight can be increased then it would be one of Brian's that this could be done. I really question if Brian would make a blanket statement that a MKIIIX can safely have a 1150 lb. gross weight. If he beefed up the airframe of a particular airplane to handle the increased gross weight that might be different. I'm just very concerned that without a structural engineering study and follow on testing to confirm survivability at a 1150 gross weight that this might be very dangerous. If I'm not clear enough then I would like to restate that the maximum gross weight of a Kolb MKIII is 1000 lbs. If you choose to fly at the 1150 weight please don't subject innocent passengers to these dangers. Also PLEASE do not encourage others to do the same. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "ces308" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:55 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: weight question > > Hello Rick and all.... > I finally got my M3X home and getting it finished up for this spring.My > airplane has a Jab 2200 on it and is fairly loaded up and when I did the > weight and balance for the plane ,the empty weight came out to 596.2 lbs. > I called Brian and he said to set the gross weight for my airplane at 1150 > lbs and that would be no problem. I was glad to here ,Rick , that yours > with the VW came in at 598.I was also told they figure the empty weight > plus full fuel,and 2 passengers for the gross weight.(for a 2 place > airplane that is). > > chris ambrose > ces308@ldaco.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231305#231305 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:48 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flying to Sun 'n Fun - and maybe MV! > I'm going to pull a John Hauck - I'm planning on taking off on Saturday, March 28 from my home field in Sandy, Oregon and flying my single seat Maxair Drifter to Sun 'n Fun (and back.) And on the return flight, hoping to join you at the MV fly-in. I've been dreaming about doing this for about 4-5 years, and the time seems right. > > Arty Trost Hi Arty: Sounds good to me! Who is going to fly with you? See you in Lakeland and MV. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:56 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: withdrawal symptoms Gary/All We had a nice flyin a Buchan FL today. Lots of airplane talk. George A and Gary A (on the list) showed up. Gary flew in with his Jab powered MKIIIC. I got a ride in Gary's plane and some stick time Wow. It had been almost four months. I was very rusty and as always, I was very concerned about flying someone else's baby. I really appreciated the opportunity. I may have to reevaluate my opinion about Jabiru engines in Kolbs. Gary's plane did very well with the plane near gross weight. It may be that the prop John W had on his Kolbra just wasn't suited for the Jabiru. Also Gary's landing was perfection and may be even aided by the land shorter VGs. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: zeprep251@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: withdrawal symptoms Rick, Always lookin' for someplace to go.Maybe try to make X-36 on Sat.a.m. Seem to get the same treatment from the folks up north.Just ain't no justice.Work till your 67 and they begrudge you a little sunshine in your golden years.I'll stick a picture in just in case. Gary Aman -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 1:34 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: withdrawal symptoms Gary I'm not holding up very well. I attended the Sebring expo and will attend the EAA flyin at Buchan on Saturday but haven't flown and there is no substitute for that. If I had stayed in Michigan I wouldn't have flown any anyway. I tell my Michigan friends that it has been cold this winter in Florida but for some reason I get no sympathy. My feet are growing roots into terra firma and it is making me grouchy. When I talk to people I have to bite my tongue and on some E-Mails I have to bite my fingers. I have said this before but next year I will be bringing my Kolb to Florida with me. Oh well retired life is hell. I guess I will just have to go on my daily shark tooth hunting walk on the beach. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: zeprep251@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:37 PM Subject: Kolb-List: withdrawal symptoms Rick, How are you holding up?A couple months now,earthbound,no view from up high,no olfactory treat flying over the local pig farms, no riding the midday thermals! Just checking! Gary Aman MK-3C Jabiru 2200, Lakeland Fla. -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 9:10 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight question Keath Useful load really depends on how it is built. Most Kolbs are built heavy reducing their useful load. My MKIIIC with a VW weighs 598lbs. empty. The 582 will weigh less but there really isn't a standard MKIII empty weight. They are after all experimental so the weight varies all over the place. Also Kolb recommends a maximum gross weight of 1000 lbs. It is NOT good to recommend a higher gross weight. Some people have made modifications (me included) that they think increases the strength and have registered their planes heaver but? Kolb is conservative but they have to be because the builders might not build the plane correctly. My plane is registered with a 1050 lbs. maximum gross weight and it is beefed up to my satisfaction. There is only one person that I'm aware of that has a gross weight at 1200 lbs. and he did some major modification to do this. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Rowe" To: Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight question > > >> Could someone please give me a ballpark number on what the useful load >> should be on a Mark III C with a 582 and standard configuration? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Keath T >> >> >> Keath, > > Depending on the empty weight of the particular bird and if the > established gross weight is 1000 pounds, the usefull load with ten gallons > of fuel will be around 400 to 500 pounds. > > Denny Rowe, Mk-3, 690L-70, empty weight 470lbs, useful load approx 470lbs. > PS, some people set their gross weight as high as 1200lbs when they > register their Mk-3s, adding a lot to their legal useful load. > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:12 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: weight question From: "ces308" Hi Rick, Thank you for your input on the gross weight of a Mark 3 Xtra.I will be discussing this further with the factory monday morning and for anyone else with a M3X it's 1000 lbs max gross. chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231439#231439 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:52 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question > Thank you for your input on the gross weight of a Mark 3 Xtra.I will be discussing this further with the factory monday morning and for anyone else with a M3X it's 1000 lbs max gross. > > chris I have a mkIII that was designed and built long before TNK came up with the idea of a mkIIIx. My mkIII has been flying for 17 years (next month), 2,873.5 hours on the airframe, and has a maximum gross take off weight of 1,200 lbs. I'd say my mkIII has been thoroughly tested, and has performed impecably throughout her long life. She has sported a 582, a 912UL, and two 912ULS engiens. Performance was great with all engines, just got better as hp was increased. I think the ideal engine for a mkIII would be a 912UL, 80 hp, based on fuel burn, spark plug life, and the fact that it is happy with 87 oct auto gas. Performance with an 80 hp Rotax is great. 100 hp kinda puts the icing on the cake, but it does cost more to operate. I certainly don't encourage anyone to increase the gross weight of any Kolb they build. I don't encourage anyone to do anything. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:33 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question John Gosh darn it (I got my airplane fix so I'm more easy going). Your plane certainly isn't stock. You really need to make that clear when you talk about your gross weight. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question > > > > Thank you for your input on the gross weight of a Mark 3 Xtra.I will be > discussing this further with the factory monday morning and for anyone > else with a M3X it's 1000 lbs max gross. >> >> chris > > > I have a mkIII that was designed and built long before TNK came up with > the idea of a mkIIIx. > > My mkIII has been flying for 17 years (next month), 2,873.5 hours on the > airframe, and has a maximum gross take off weight of 1,200 lbs. > > I'd say my mkIII has been thoroughly tested, and has performed impecably > throughout her long life. She has sported a 582, a 912UL, and two 912ULS > engiens. Performance was great with all engines, just got better as hp > was increased. I think the ideal engine for a mkIII would be a 912UL, 80 > hp, based on fuel burn, spark plug life, and the fact that it is happy > with 87 oct auto gas. Performance with an 80 hp Rotax is great. 100 hp > kinda puts the icing on the cake, but it does cost more to operate. > > I certainly don't encourage anyone to increase the gross weight of any > Kolb they build. > > I don't encourage anyone to do anything. ;-) > > john h > mkIII > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:22 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question > Gosh darn it (I got my airplane fix so I'm more easy going). Your plane > certainly isn't stock. You really need to make that clear when you talk > about your gross weight. > > Rick Neilsen Rick: I'd fly a Kolb mkIII at 1200 lbs, built strictly by the plans Dennis Souder drew up in 1990, if I built it. The kit manufacturer recommended my airplane be limited to 1,000 lbs. I believe the max gross on new mkIII's is still 1,000 lbs. The only thing I did to increase strength of the wings was put some aluminum angle on the all main rib noses, plus some stronger lateral bracing from the main spar to the leading edge, and beefed up bracing on the bow tip at 90 and 45 degrees forward. A copy of Dennis Sounder's plans sheet is attached. I also added aluminum angle to the tails of the first four outboard main ribs. That's all I did. Changing the main gear did not change max gross weight capacity. I increased the up elevator cable to 1/8". It is the one that works the hardest. Down elevator cable is still 3/32. It doesn't do much work. Any other changes, as far as I know, did nothing to increase strength of my mkIII Again, I am not encouraging anyone else to increase the max gross weight capacity of a Kolb they build. I did. It serves my purpose, and has more than proven it is capable of 1,200 lbs max gross under any conditions I can subject it to. I emphasize, I only speak of my airplane. No one elses's. Your mkIII may not be capable of 1,200 lbs. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:32 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question John The plans from Dennis recommended that this be done to the outboard rib only. Which I did but you did all full ribs and four of the outer tails. I also added a jury strut which you did and it seems like you told me you also beefed up the lift strut. My POINT IS...... Your plane has been beefed up to handle the 1200 lbs. gross weight. I never said you advised people to to increase the gross weight. The problem is you have put your plane thru the ultimate test and it did hold up with the higher gross weight. That says more than I or anyone else can say. That is why if you say 1200 lbs you have to tell us everything you did. John you are a friend so I really don't want to beat you up over this but lives are at stake here. Want it or not we hang on every word you say and I remember. Does Brian do all this? I don't think a standard build would handle the treatment at 1200lbs. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question > > Gosh darn it (I got my airplane fix so I'm more easy going). Your plane >> certainly isn't stock. You really need to make that clear when you talk >> about your gross weight. >> >> Rick Neilsen > > > Rick: > > I'd fly a Kolb mkIII at 1200 lbs, built strictly by the plans Dennis > Souder > drew up in 1990, if I built it. > > The kit manufacturer recommended my airplane be limited to 1,000 lbs. I > believe the max gross on new mkIII's is still 1,000 lbs. > > The only thing I did to increase strength of the wings was put some > aluminum > angle on the all main rib noses, plus some stronger lateral bracing from > the > main spar to the leading edge, and beefed up bracing on the bow tip at 90 > and 45 degrees forward. A copy of Dennis Sounder's plans sheet is > attached. > I also added aluminum angle to the tails of the first four outboard main > ribs. > > That's all I did. Changing the main gear did not change max gross weight > capacity. > > I increased the up elevator cable to 1/8". It is the one that works the > hardest. Down elevator cable is still 3/32. It doesn't do much work. > > Any other changes, as far as I know, did nothing to increase strength of > my > mkIII > > Again, I am not encouraging anyone else to increase the max gross weight > capacity of a Kolb they build. > > I did. It serves my purpose, and has more than proven it is capable of > 1,200 lbs max gross under any conditions I can subject it to. > > I emphasize, I only speak of my airplane. No one elses's. > > Your mkIII may not be capable of 1,200 lbs. > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:41 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question > The plans from Dennis recommended that this be done to the outboard rib > only. Which I did but you did all full ribs and four of the outer tails. I > also added a jury strut which you did and it seems like you told me you > also beefed up the lift strut. > > Rick Neilsen Rick: Yep! Made sense to me. If it worked to beef up the outboard wing from abuse, mishandling, drops, ground strikes, etc., then it ought to work to beef up the other 4 main ribs on each wing panel. That has to be one of the cheapest, easiest, simplest improvements one can make to vastly increase the strength of the rib. I was primarily concerned with increasing strength of the rib noses. Oh yea, and it adds negligible weight. As far as handling, flying, hauling extra weight with Homer's wings, it'll do it. I always said if I could stuff it in the mkIII, it would fly off with it. Only reason I stiffened the tails of the four outboard ribs was the load the ailerons placed on them. Made me feel better. I used 1/2" od aluminum tubing to brace the leading edge to the main spar inboard and outboard. Keeping the main rib noses in column is critical if they are going to do their job. I ended up using 4130 tubing for lift struts inside the extruded streamlined aluminum struts. Seems I had a difficult time getting the bolt holes drilled straight, ruined two sets of struts, then opted for the 4130 tubing (with fittings welded on) inside the aluminum strut. Aluminum strut is nothing more than a fairing for the steel strut. Had nice 4130 streamlined struts for the first flight, but one got destroyed during testing. Couldn't afford to buy material for a replacement when I rebuilt. If built correctly, the mkIII wing is tremendously strong in my humble opinion. I tore up a lot of parts and airplanes during my growing pains in civilian aviation. Homer used to refer to me as his best test bed. If it could be broken, I'd breake it. ;-) Hope I have outgrown being his test bed. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:13 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: weight question From: "ces308" Rick and John, Looks like I opened a real can of worms here....I will call Brian and Dennis again monday and let you know what they say .Please email me off the list and let me tell you how this all started.I certainly understand both of your urgencies on this matter and it was also my concern too,which is why I called them last week. later,chris ces308@ldaco.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231458#231458 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:32 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question > Looks like I opened a real can of worms here....I will call Brian and Dennis again monday and let you know what they say .Please email me off the list and let me tell you how this all started.I certainly understand both of your urgencies on this matter and it was also my concern too,which is why I called them last week. > > later,chris Chris: No worms. No urgency. Simply sharing a few things I have learned building and flying Kolbs for the past 25 years. Forgot to add, and breaking them too. I have my mkIII built and configured to perform so I can be relatively comfortable and accomplish the type flying I am accustomed to. Get me there and get me home. What I haul is not passenger weight though. It is fuel, 150 lbs, and my gear, about 125 lbs, and me, about 200 lbs. From my experience with the mkIII, they don't like heavy pilots and heavy passengers. I believe this is primarily because of the high thrust line in the pusher configuration. Takes a lot of nose up trim to haul heavy passengers and pilot. Looks like one could get in a pitch problem by trying to fly with 500 lbs of passengers in front of the cg and only 60 lbs of fuel behind the cg. The weight in my mkIII is much more evenly distributed. Even when I fly with a heavy passenger, 250 lbs, plus me, 200 lbs, and 150 lbs of fuel, and an empty weight of 650 lbs, I am already up to 1,250 lbs. However, 150 lbs of that is in the back. I won't fly with a lot of weight forward and very little weight in the rear. Don't fly with 250 passengers, although have done some nice cross country flights with a 220 lbs passenger. A lot depends on how you configure your airplane. I'm not trying to defend my mkIII. Only sharing what I have done with it. We used to fly a lot of passengers at Sun and Fun and Oshkosh back in the old days. I can assure I got a lot of experience with different weight and size passengers. My favorites were the kids. You could hardly tell they were in the airplane. Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question From: zeprep251@aol.com Chris, ??? Let me know how you like the Jabiru. ?????????????? G.Aman MK-3C Jabiru 2200 410 hrs -----Original Message----- From: ces308 Sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:55 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: weight question Hello Rick and all.... I finally got my M3X home and getting it finished up for this spring.My airplane has a Jab 2200 on it and is fairly loaded up and when I did the weight and balance for the plane ,the empty weight came out to 596.2 lbs. I called Brian and he said to set the gross weight for my airplane at 1150 lbs and that would be no problem. I was glad to here ,Rick , that yours with the VW came in at 598.I was also told they figure the empty weight plus full fuel,and 2 passengers for the gross weight.(for a 2 place airplane that is). chris ambrose ces308@ldaco.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231305#231305 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: zeprep251@aol.com Fran, ?? I am in central Fla.Flew down to Buchan,x36,and had a chance to meet Rick and George today.I fly a MK-3 and had the opportunity to give Rick some therapeutic air time.Some other listers are closer,but if you would like to kick the tires(watch the pants)or go for a flight,let me know if you don't get a another offer closer to you.Am in Lakeland near Interstate 4.Cell # 330-819-3000 ????????????????? Gary Aman MK-3C Jabiru 2200 410hrs -----Original Message----- From: Fran Losey Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 3:10 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Any KOLBs in South Florida? To all, I have been registered in the KOLB group for about a month now, watching the group interact and peaking my interest with excellent questions and comments. Some of you have valuable websites, that I have been researching and discovering just what is involved in undertaking such a project. I must say that I am at the counter, ready to purchase a KOLB Mark III kit, but have not had the opportunity to see physically see one in person. I was disappointed there was not a single KOLB at Sebring, however I did get the opportunity to meet with Rick Nielson and George Alexander, and truly appreciated their time spent with me. I live between West Palm Beach and Ft. Lauderdale, and would welcome traveling to a South Florida location to see a project in process, or see a completed bird and hear builder, owner and operator experiences before I take the plunge (Gulp!). Sincerely, Mr. Fran Losey 954-495-0878 Cell Fran.losey@alber.com or loseyf@comcast.net -------- loseyf@comcast.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231417#231417 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:18 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: weight question From: "ces308" So far it seems to have tons of power! I do not believe it will have a problem flying this airplane! chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231464#231464 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question From: zeprep251@aol.com Quick question for the list.My MK 3 struts are .125 wall tube with 4130 end fittings with a short shim tube over the? fittings for fit.My friend Gary Jindra.bought an older, partially? done MK-C kit with poorly built extruded struts.On our recommendation he bought new stock and started over with the strut building.He was supplied with .250 wall tubing from Travis.Are all the new kits using this thickness strut tubing? ??????????????????????????????????? G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 9:05 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: weight question ? > The plans from Dennis recommended that this be done to the outboard rib? > only. Which I did but you did all full ribs and four of the outer tails. I > also added a jury strut which you did and it seems like you told me you > also beefed up the lift strut.? >? > Rick Neilsen? ? Rick:? ? Yep! Made sense to me. If it worked to beef up the outboard wing from abuse, mishandling, drops, ground strikes, etc., then it ought to work to beef up the other 4 main ribs on each wing panel. That has to be one of the cheapest, easiest, simplest improvements one can make to vastly increase the strength of the rib. I was primarily concerned with increasing strength of the rib noses. Oh yea, and it adds negligible weight.? ? As far as handling, flying, hauling extra weight with Homer's wings, it'll do it. I always said if I could stuff it in the mkIII, it would fly off with it.? ? Only reason I stiffened the tails of the four outboard ribs was the load the ailerons placed on them. Made me feel better.? ? I used 1/2" od aluminum tubing to brace the leading edge to the main spar inboard and outboard. Keeping the main rib noses in column is critical if they are going to do their job.? ? I ended up using 4130 tubing for lift struts inside the extruded streamlined aluminum struts. Seems I had a difficult time getting the bolt holes drilled straight, ruined two sets of struts, then opted for the 4130 tubing (with fittings welded on) inside the aluminum strut. Aluminum strut is nothing more than a fairing for the steel strut. Had nice 4130 streamlined struts for the first flight, but one got destroyed during testing. Couldn't afford to buy material for a replacement when I rebuilt.? ? If built correctly, the mkIII wing is tremendously strong in my humble opinion.? ? I tore up a lot of parts and airplanes during my growing pains in civilian aviation. Homer used to refer to me as his best test bed. If it could be broken, I'd breake it. ;-)? ? Hope I have outgrown being his test bed.? ? john h? mkIII? ? ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:47 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: weight question From: "ces308" My struts are 1 1/2 x .125 with the same ends you have. chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231466#231466 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.