---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/28/09: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Dana Hague) 2. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Mike Welch) 3. 07:50 AM - Re: Kolb List: wrinkled Poly Fiber (william sullivan) 4. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Kolb List: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Kolbdriver) 5. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Richard Girard) 6. 09:09 AM - Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Jack B. Hart) 7. 09:18 AM - Kolb intro dates (Aaron Gustafson) 8. 09:22 AM - Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (Mike Welch) 9. 09:38 AM - time to wing it (Mike Welch) 10. 09:39 AM - Re: firestar first flight (JetPilot) 11. 09:50 AM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (herb) 12. 10:41 AM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (Mike Welch) 13. 10:55 AM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (robert bean) 14. 11:18 AM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (herb) 15. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 16. 11:34 AM - radiator mount (robert bean) 17. 11:35 AM - Re: time to wing it (John Hauck) 18. 11:37 AM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (John Hauck) 19. 11:39 AM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (John Hauck) 20. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Dana Hague) 21. 11:52 AM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (herb) 22. 12:19 PM - Re: time to wing it (Mike Welch) 23. 12:29 PM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (Mike Welch) 24. 12:33 PM - Re: time to wing it (John Hauck) 25. 12:52 PM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (John Hauck) 26. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber (Beauford T) 27. 02:04 PM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (herb) 28. 02:18 PM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (Richard Girard) 29. 02:37 PM - Re: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? (herb) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:53 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber At 09:55 PM 2/27/2009, John Hauck wrote: >Calling aircraft covering cloth is like calling the instrument panel the >dash board. ;-) As bad as calling it "canvas"??? -Dana -- The most valuable function performed by the federal government is entertainment. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:23 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber What really irritates me is when goof-balls talk about airplane engine's "stalling". Argh! Airplane engine QUIT=2C (or they ingest geese)=2C but they don't stall!!! ! Wing's stall. Feisty=2C since my Poly Fiber is nearly done. By the way=2C what a LOT o f work! I spent more than a week of intense work on just one wing! In the Poly Fiber manual it says you might be able to complete a typical P.F. airplane job in a month. They left off "of Sundays". "Month of Sunda ys"!!! Time to take another pill. And get back to the last wing. Mike Welch Do not archive > Date: Sat=2C 28 Feb 2009 08:35:14 -0500 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > From: d-m-hague@comcast.net > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber > > > At 09:55 PM 2/27/2009=2C John Hauck wrote: > > >Calling aircraft covering cloth is like calling the instrument panel the > >dash board. =3B-) > > As bad as calling it "canvas"??? > > -Dana > -- > The most valuable function performed by the federal government is > entertainment. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_03200 9 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:24 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb List: wrinkled Poly Fiber - Mike- About how many hours to cover a wing?- Not including paint. - ------------------------- -------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- -------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- -------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:37 AM PST US From: "Kolbdriver" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb List: wrinkled Poly Fiber You should be able to cover a wing thru Poly brush in a couple of days. The problem Mike is having is that he does some work, and then sits in the airplane making VROOM noises chasing the red baron!!! I found out early if you count those hrs in the build time you have a 10,000 hr airplane!! HAHAHA I'm one to talk, I've been working on my MK III for 10 years also. Mike Oak Grove MO Do No Archive _____ From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of william sullivan Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:50 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb List: wrinkled Poly Fiber Mike- About how many hours to cover a wing? Not including paint. Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. FS 447 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber From: Richard Girard Mike, Jet engines do stall in the compressor stage. Not that those who describe such are being technically sophisticated, but they are not necessarily wrong.My personal favorite was the writer in Scientific America n (!!!!!!!) who reported that the stick shaker was a device to warn the pilot of insufficient air UNDER (my emphasis) the wing. I could not make that one up, I swear. Rick do not archive On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Mike Welch wrote : > What really irritates me is when goof-balls talk about airplane engine 's > "*stalling*". Argh! > > Airplane engine QUIT, (or they ingest geese), but they don't stall!!!! > Wing's stall. > > Feisty, since my Poly Fiber is nearly done. By the way, what a LOT of > work! I spent more than a week of intense work on just one wing! > In the Poly Fiber manual it says you might be able to complete a typica l > P.F. airplane job in a month. They left off "of Sundays". "Month of > Sundays"!!! > > Time to take another pill. And get back to the last wing. > > Mike Welch > Do not archive > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:35:14 -0500 > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > From: d-m-hague@comcast.net > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber > > > > > > At 09:55 PM 2/27/2009, John Hauck wrote: > > > > >Calling aircraft covering cloth is like calling the instrument panel t he > > > >dash board. ;-) > > > > As bad as calling it "canvas"??? > > > > -Dana > > -- > > The most valuable function performed by the federal government is < > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find o ut > more. > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:36 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber From: Richard Girard > Mike, Jet engines do stall in the compressor stage. Not that those who describe such are being technically sophisticated, but they are not necessarily wrong. My personal favorite was the writer in Scientific American (!!!!!!!) who reported that the stick shaker was a device to warn the pilot of insufficient air UNDER (my emphasis) the wing. I could not make that one up, I swear. > Rick, Not much can be worse than the FAA declaring that an ultralight vehicle, a mechanical device that flys, is not an aircraft. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:56 AM PST US From: "Aaron Gustafson" Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb intro dates Can someone tell me the date of the first MK 3C kit built or sold and also same for original Firestar. Thanks Aaron Gustafson building MK 3C & previously Firestar 2 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:29 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Kolb gurus=2C By any chance=2C does anyone have a little bit of the rib reinforcing tap e left? I need enough to finish the bottom of a wing. Some history. Years ago=2C back when I was working on my plane more=2C I covered the TOP of one wing (with fabric and rib tape.) For all kinds of reasons=2C the wing was put outside=2C under a tarp=2C and eventually the f abric and tape rotted off. So=2C initially=2C I DID have enough tape=2C bu t having to recover that wing caused me to be about that much short. Dondi only sells a whole roll. I don't need anything near that much. So =2C by any chance=2C for those of you that have completed your taping requi rements=2C can you consider sending your "extra". Maybe a couple of donati ons would be able to get me by. Thanks. Michael Sharp was correct. How in the world can I finish building the pl ane when I keep hopping in it=2C and making engine noises? Actually=2C mos t of my delay is due to completing my "Classic to Xtra" conversion. For th e most part=2C I have done all I'm gonna do (thank God)=2C and am finally p ast all the "diversions". That's why I'm so darn happy to finally be in th e Poly Fiber stage......to late to change it now!!! BTW=2C Mike Sharp asked if anyone had any extra Poly Spray=2C last year. He only needed a little bit. I sent him about 4-6 ounces....just 'cause h e's a nice guy. We have since met=2C gone to dinner (with our wives)=2C an d in fact=2C my wife and I spent Christmas dinner with him=2C and his famil y. So remember this quote! A friend in need=2C is a friend indeed!! Even if you only have a few feet of that tape..I'm taking donations. I t hought I'd start here with the list=2C and if this doesn't work=2C I'll sta nd out on the offramp with a cardboard sign...."will work for reinforcing t ape". Might not be as effective=2C though. Mike Welch Do not archive PS. I saw a photo of someone's radiator mount they made out of chromoly tu bing. Very nice job. It kind of looked like a dynofocal engine mount. Ca n you send me the photo? Anybody? Anybody? (Bob Bean??) _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_03200 9 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:32 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: time to wing it Bill=2C In my experience=2C on a MkIII wing=2C it will take a week or so of dedic ated work to completely finish it. Subtract a day of so for the paint=2C a nd I'd think you'd be around three days=2C and likely into the 4th day=2C t o get to the Poly Spray being on. A smaller wing=2C like an UltraStar=2C would be quite a bit easier. Mayb e knock a day or two off. Boyd=2C You're right. Most of my computer time is because I'm taking a "fume bre ak". Even though I have a respirator=2C the job is intensive. Back to work.... Mike _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail=AE . http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MS GTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:31 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: firestar first flight From: "JetPilot" Great job on flying that Firestar only 10 months after you bought the kit !!! You also chose the perfect engine for it, you will have a really great time with that plane. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232452#232452 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:26 AM PST US From: herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? 52 bucks a roll at Spruce!!! I would go to Wal Mart and buy polyester ribbon (fused edge acetate ) before I would pay that price..!! just slather it on with diluted poly tac or poly brush.....frugal Herb :-) At 11:22 AM 2/28/2009, you wrote: >Kolb gurus, > > By any chance, does anyone have a little bit > of the rib reinforcing tape left? I need > enough to finish the bottom of a wing. > > Some history. Years ago, back when I was > working on my plane more, I covered the TOP of > one wing (with fabric and rib tape.) For all > kinds of reasons, the wing was put outside, > under a tarp, and eventually the fabric and > tape rotted off. So, initially, I DID have > enough tape, but having to recover that wing > caused me to be about that much short. > > Dondi only sells a whole roll. I don't need > anything near that much. So, by any chance, > for those of you that have completed your > taping requirements, can you consider sending > your "extra". Maybe a couple of donations would be able to get me by. > > Thanks. > > Michael Sharp was correct. How in the world > can I finish building the plane when I keep > hopping in it, and making engine > noises? Actually, most of my delay is due to > completing my "Classic to Xtra" > conversion. For the most part, I have done all > I'm gonna do (thank God), and am finally past > all the "diversions". That's why I'm so darn > happy to finally be in the Poly Fiber stage......to late to change it now!!! > > BTW, Mike Sharp asked if anyone had any extra > Poly Spray, last year. He only needed a little > bit. I sent him about 4-6 ounces....just > 'cause he's a nice guy. We have since met, > gone to dinner (with our wives), and in fact, > my wife and I spent Christmas dinner with him, > and his family. So remember this quote! A > friend in need, is a friend indeed!! > > Even if you only have a few feet of that > tape..I'm taking donations. I thought I'd > start here with the list, and if this doesn't > work, I'll stand out on the offramp with a > cardboard sign...."will work for reinforcing > tape". Might not be as effective, though. > >Mike Welch >Do not archive > >PS. I saw a photo of someone's radiator mount >they made out of chromoly tubing. Very nice >job. It kind of looked like a dynofocal engine >mount. Can you send me the photo? Anybody? Anybody? (Bob Bean??) > > >---------- >Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news >travels really fast. >Find >out more. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:21 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Hmm=2C Jerb. I think I might give that a check out. After all=2C I only need the tape for the lower surface. I had enough to do the top. I think the bottom has much less demand placed on it=2C compared to the t op. Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to m eet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:37 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:49 AM PST US From: herb Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Mike I have two rolls to use on my next project...and I am perfectly satisfied that it will work just fine.. That said...I haven't checked to make sure that it will burn through with a soldering iron...Herb ps I will use it top and bottom... At 12:40 PM 2/28/2009, you wrote: >Hmm, Jerb. > > I think I might give that a check out. After > all, I only need the tape for the lower surface. > I had enough to do the top. > I think the bottom has much less demand placed on it, compared to the top. > >Mike Welch > > >---------- >Windows Live=99 Groups: Create an online spot for >your favorite groups to meet. >Che ck >it out. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:35 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber Jack Thank your lucky stars that the FAA doesn't consider ultralights airplane. If they did they would be regulating them. Riding in a DC8 one windy day I noticed the pilot was being extremely heavy handed with the throttle on take off roll. I heard a loud bang followed by power going to idle. I said out loud "sounded like a compressor stall". A few minutes later on the PA system they announced that we had a compressor stall and that it was not a safety concern. Everyone! around me started hitting me with questions about what happened. When the pilot powered up for the next take off he fed power much much slower. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:01 -0600 > From: Richard Girard >> > Mike, Jet engines do stall in the compressor stage. Not that those who > describe such are being technically sophisticated, but they are not > necessarily wrong. > My personal favorite was the writer in Scientific American (!!!!!!!) who > reported that the stick shaker was a device to warn the pilot of > insufficient air UNDER (my emphasis) the wing. I could not make that one > up, > I swear. >> > > Rick, > > Not much can be worse than the FAA declaring that an ultralight vehicle, a > mechanical device that flys, is not an aircraft. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:31 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Kolb-List: radiator mount I apologize for not scaling that pic down. My mail even kicked it back. The support tubing is fastened to the engine so they shake in unison. Reasoning is so that the hose nipples won't fatigue as early. The whole works is now behind a fairing. The oil cooler, hoses and integral filter mount/thermostat are from Summit. BB DSCN0916.JPG
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:48 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: time to wing it In my experience, on a MkIII wing, it will take a week or so of dedicated work to completely finish it. Subtract a day of so for the paint, and I'd think you'd be around three days, and likely into the 4th day, to get to the Poly Spray being on. A smaller wing, like an UltraStar, would be quite a bit easier.. Maybe knock a day or two off. Mike Mike W: A lot to be taken into consideration when it comes to length of time to complete a wing: Degree of quality. Show quality means many hours of work with the iron and sand paper. Paint scheme. A single color wing should take a couple days. On the other hand, a multicolor wing will take double or triple that amount of time to mask and flip flop the wing, unless you have a jig to roll it. How much easier do you think an Ultrastar wing is to cover and paint than the mkIII? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:35 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Remember that gang, when Herb tries to sell you one of the airplanes he covered. ;-) john h mkIII 52 bucks a roll at Spruce!!! I would go to Wal Mart and buy polyester ribbon (fused edge acetate ) before I would pay that price..!! just slather it on with diluted poly tac or poly brush.....frugal Herb :-) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:33 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Mike W: Better do some research on that. I thought one major role of the fabric was to keep the wing together and parts in position. john h mkIII I think the bottom has much less demand placed on it, compared to the top. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:14 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber At 12:14 PM 2/28/2009, Jack B. Hart wrote: >Not much can be worse than the FAA declaring that an ultralight vehicle, a >mechanical device that flys, is not an aircraft. Everybody says that, but it's not correct. According to Federal Aviation Regulations, Part 1, Section 1 (Definitions): "Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air." Not much ambiguity there. The confusion comes from the fact that unlike other aircraft, "ultralight vehicles" are not required to follow the requirements of Part 91, the General Operating rules: =A7 91.1 Applicability. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section and =A7=A791.701 and 91.703, this part prescribes rules governing the operation of aircraft (other than moored balloons, kites, unmanned rockets, and unmanned free balloons, which are governed by part 101 of this chapter, and ultralight vehicles operated in accordance with part 103 of this chapter) within the United States... Note how the above is worded. It does NOT say that an ultralight vehicle is not an aircraft; it simply says that Part 91 applies to "aircraft other than ultralight vehicles", which have their own special regulations (Part 103). An "ultralight vehicle" is simply a class of aircraft with its own distinct regulations. However, I admit the misconception can be useful in some situations, as when dealing with local zoning boards who restrict "aircraft" and such... (shhhhh) -Dana -- Bill of Rights: Void where Prohibited by Law ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:57 AM PST US From: herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? did I know that was coming?? :-) The airplane that it will go on is my long anticipated Ultra Tri Fly... Bit longer with...24 feet.wing ..training wheel...7 gals,,,half vw...high tail boom.. gonna be so purty that guys will buy it even if covered in denim... or dacron sizing...er um cloth... Herb At 01:37 PM 2/28/2009, you wrote: >Remember that gang, when Herb tries to sell you one of the airplanes >he covered. ;-) > >john h >mkIII > > > 52 bucks a roll at Spruce!!! I would go to Wal Mart and buy > polyester ribbon (fused edge acetate ) before I would pay that > price..!! just slather it on with diluted poly tac or poly > brush.....frugal Herb :-) > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:23 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: time to wing it John=2C My comparison between a MkIII wing and an UltraStar wing is ASSUMED that were of similar paint design. Besides=2C Bill asked "not including paint". An UltraStar has less ribs=2C and many less half-ribs=2C I'm pretty sure. This is my thinking why an UltraStar may be a "little" less time. Obviou sly (!)=2C a fancy paint US wing can take two to three weeks=2C just for on e wing=2C whereas a basic painted MkIII can be done in a very busy week. Clearly=2C fastening the edges=2C and some other tasks probably won't be any quicker. That's why I suggested if a MkIII wing takes 5 days=2C a Ultr aStar may take well into the 4th day. Mike From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: time to wing it In my experience=2C on a MkIII wing=2C it will take a week or so of dedic ated work to completely finish it. Subtract a day of so for the paint=2C a nd I'd think you'd be around three days=2C and likely into the 4th day=2C t o get to the Poly Spray being on. A smaller wing=2C like an UltraStar=2C would be quite a bit easier.. May be knock a day or two off. Mike Mike W: A lot to be taken into consideration when it comes to length of time to com plete a wing: Degree of quality. Show quality means many hours of work with the iron and sand paper. Paint scheme. A single color wing should take a couple days. On the other hand=2C a multicolor wing will take double or triple that amount of time t o mask and flip flop the wing=2C unless you have a jig to roll it. How much easier do you think an Ultrastar wing is to cover and paint than t he mkIII? john h mkIII _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_03200 9 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:57 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? John=2C My comment was referring to the rib reinforcement tape=2C since that was the subject of the thread. The bottom surface 99% of the time is pressed a gainst the ribs. It seems intuitive to me=2C the stress on the rib tape LE SS=2C than the stress on the top surface rib tape. I would think that the top of the wing the rib tape is trying to be "sucked up" 99% of the time. If I wasn't clear enough=2C sorry=2C I was referring to rib tape. Mike From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Mike W: Better do some research on that. I thought one major role of the fabric was to keep the wing together and pa rts in position. john h mkIII I think the bottom has much less demand placed on it=2C compared to the top. Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail=AE . http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MS GTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:41 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: time to wing it Mike: My first thought was wing panel size. I believe they are the same. Then I remembered the mkIII has twice as many ribs and false ribs. john h mkIII An UltraStar has less ribs, and many less half-ribs, I'm pretty sure. Mike ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:22 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Mike: My understanding is the reinforcement tape reinforces the fabric where it i s mechanically attached to the rib, top or bottom. Have no idea how much s tress is placed on it top or bottom. I do know one of the primary requirem ents of fabric, reinforcement tape, rivets, and trim tape is to keep ribs, full and false, in position. Ribs have very little strength laterally. Don't think my wing is the place for walmart ribbon. Hope you guys are just kidding about using it. john h mkIII My comment was referring to the rib reinforcement tape, since that was the subject of the thread. The bottom surface 99% of the time is pressed against the ribs. It seems intuitive to me, the stress on the rib tape LES S, than the stress on the top surface rib tape. I would think that the top of the wing the rib tape is trying to be "sucked up" 99% of the time. If I wasn't clear enough, sorry, I was referring to rib tape. Mike ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:31 PM PST US From: "Beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber Brother Welch: I have news for you, Good Sir.... Stall....??? The little Nazi 447 on the Kleenex Kolb most assuredly does stall.... It also procrastinates, prevaricates, lies, cheats, steals.... and I believe that if it could unbolt itself from the airplane and escape from the trailer, it would rob convenience stores on weekends.... As for the Polyfiber Follies.... nothing to it...forget your pills... just take a warm glass of MEK each night before you go to bed.... you'll sleep like a government retiree.... after a week or so, you'll wake up and the airplane will be covered, painted, pin-striped, have n-numbers on it and you won't remember a thing... ....these kids today.... don't know what real trouble looks like.... sigh.... overage-in-grade beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:10 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber What really irritates me is when goof-balls talk about airplane engine's "stalling". Argh! Airplane engine QUIT, (or they ingest geese), but they don't stall!!!! Wing's stall. Feisty, since my Poly Fiber is nearly done. By the way, what a LOT of work! I spent more than a week of intense work on just one wing! In the Poly Fiber manual it says you might be able to complete a typical P.F. airplane job in a month. They left off "of Sundays". "Month of Sundays"!!! Time to take another pill. And get back to the last wing. Mike Welch Do not archive > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:35:14 -0500 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > From: d-m-hague@comcast.net > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: wrinkled Poly Fiber > > > At 09:55 PM 2/27/2009, John Hauck wrote: > > >Calling aircraft covering cloth is like calling the instrument panel the > >dash board. ;-) > > As bad as calling it "canvas"??? > > -Dana > -- > The most valuable function performed by the federal government is < > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find out more. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:47 PM PST US From: herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? For the record...My Firefly is bone std...other than the full enclosure... :-) Herb do not archive.. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? From: Richard Girard The real problem with using fabric / department store polyester cloth is that you most likely have no way of knowing what sizing chemicals were used on it. If it's silicone, it could create bonds that are something less than optimal to the tape or subsequent coating.One of the Long EZ builders found this out when he used fabric store polyester as peel ply. The silicone sizing in the cloth caused the bond to any attachments attempted later to be nonexistant. The fuselage had to be scrapped. Let's see, about $15K for kit and covering, $52 is .35%. Brings the phrase "penny wise and pound foolish" to mind. If it's just a few feet, why not get out the pinking shears and make what you need? Even if you had to order a yard or two of heavy weight fabric you'd be money ahead. Rick do not archive On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 2:51 PM, John Hauck wrote: > Mike: > > My understanding is the reinforcement tape reinforces the fabric where it > is mechanically attached to the rib, top or bottom. Have no idea how much > stress is placed on it top or bottom. I do know one of the primary > requirements of fabric, reinforcement tape, rivets, and trim tape is to keep > ribs, full and false, in position. Ribs have very little strength > laterally. > > Don't think my wing is the place for walmart ribbon. > > Hope you guys are just kidding about using it. > > john h > mkIII > > > My comment was referring to the rib reinforcement tape, since that was > the subject of the thread. The bottom surface 99% of the time is pressed > against the ribs. It seems intuitive to me, the stress on the rib tape > LESS, than the stress on the top surface rib tape. I would think that the > top of the wing the rib tape is trying to be "sucked up" 99% of the time. > > If I wasn't clear enough, sorry, I was referring to rib tape. > > Mike > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:20 PM PST US From: herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Can you help out a guy down on his luck? Yep...Know all about that...Aircraft fabric should be woven using some sort of water process..whatever that is? So they tell us when charging three prices for it.. Using fabric store cloth requires one to know the difference... Wiping down with acetone or mek is wise.. and that might not be enough... On fiberglass/carbon fiber layups...wise to use the std peel ply or know the difference.. I have spent many hours helping to do layups...polish molds... enough to know that I wouldn't want to do that for a complete project...Vacuuming bagging is a pain in the ass...always a leak or two...:-) I started this thread in response to Mikes question about the half inch reinforcing tape that is placed over the ribs and adds some strength to the bond between the large head rivets and the fabric..itself... There are perfectly safe substitutes out there...I suggested one... I may have said ribbon...which in actuality it is not... sort of a seam.bias tape... Lets see...3500 for project...add 600 for covering and paint...I have about 4200 in my brand new firefly...:-) It is obviously not about cost...but I would not want to fall out of the air on principle either...:-) Thinking outside the box has its perils on this list...been there several times...Herb oopss just remembered...I added single , streamlined lift struts to my Firefly...not std at all..more like the firestar now...:-) At 04:17 PM 2/28/2009, you wrote: >The real problem with using fabric / department store polyester >cloth is that you most likely have no way of knowing what sizing >chemicals were used on it. If it's silicone, it could create bonds >that are something less than optimal to the tape or subsequent coating. >One of the Long EZ builders found this out when he used fabric store >polyester as peel ply. The silicone sizing in the cloth caused the >bond to any attachments attempted later to be nonexistant. The >fuselage had to be scrapped. >Let's see, about $15K for kit and covering, $52 is .35%. Brings the >phrase "penny wise and pound foolish" to mind. >If it's just a few feet, why not get out the pinking shears and make >what you need? Even if you had to order a yard or two of heavy >weight fabric you'd be money ahead. > >Rick >do not archive > >On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 2:51 PM, John Hauck ><jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: >Mike: > >My understanding is the reinforcement tape reinforces the fabric >where it is mechanically attached to the rib, top or bottom. Have >no idea how much stress is placed on it top or bottom. I do know >one of the primary requirements of fabric, reinforcement tape, >rivets, and trim tape is to keep ribs, full and false, in >position. Ribs have very little strength laterally. > >Don't think my wing is the place for walmart ribbon. > >Hope you guys are just kidding about using it. > >john h >mkIII > > > My comment was referring to the rib reinforcement tape, since > that was the subject of the thread. The bottom surface 99% of the > time is pressed against the ribs. It seems intuitive to me, the > stress on the rib tape LESS, than the stress on the top surface rib > tape. I would think that the top of the wing the rib tape is > trying to be "sucked up" 99% of the time. > > If I wasn't clear enough, sorry, I was referring to rib tape. > >Mike > > >====== get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.