---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/03/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:33 AM - Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (william sullivan) 2. 06:33 AM - Re: Maule SFS-P8A tail wheel on Kolb... (robcannon) 3. 09:17 AM - Re: E-10 water mix (william sullivan) 4. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (Dana Hague) 5. 10:51 AM - Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (Jack B. Hart) 6. 11:01 AM - Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (william sullivan) 7. 11:33 AM - Re: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (robert bean) 8. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (Dana Hague) 9. 04:38 PM - Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (william sullivan) 10. 04:48 PM - Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (Dana) 11. 04:56 PM - Re: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (Dana Hague) 12. 09:42 PM - Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve (JetPilot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:38 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve - I agree that a gascolator is a very valuable component of the fuel syst em, but I am thinking of the water held in the fuel by the alcohol in E-10. - I was wondering if a dessicant cartridge could extract the water from t he alcohol before it reached the gascolator.- Anyone know enough chemistr y to determine how much water could be absorbed by E-10 before it reaches a saturation point?- The catridge (if it works on E-10) would be a lightwe ight safety backup for a gascolator, plus has the advantage of no plumbing, visual checking for water, or a lightweight alternative for 103 weight wat chers. - ------------------------- ------------------------ Bi ll Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------ Wi ndsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Maule SFS-P8A tail wheel on Kolb... From: "robcannon" Mike and others - John H's bracing on tail is nice, and I believe a very good idea. If you look at the pics he posted you'll see one of someone else's plane (looks very similar to his) that shows the bracing done with flat stock aluminum, bolted at each end. I did mine this way and it was simple, and I believe a VERY good mod. cheers, Rob Cannon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237509#237509 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:41 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: E-10 water mix - I think I'll try to find one of those cartridges and play with it.- M ight be an interesting item. - ------------------------- ------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct .. do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:35 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve At 07:27 AM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote: > I agree that a gascolator is a very valuable component of the fuel > system, but I am thinking of the water held in the fuel by the alcohol in > E-10. I was wondering if a dessicant cartridge could extract the water > from the alcohol before it reached the gascolator. Anyone know enough > chemistry to determine how much water could be absorbed by E-10 before it > reaches a saturation point? The catridge (if it works on E-10) would be > a lightweight safety backup for a gascolator, plus has the advantage of > no plumbing, visual checking for water, or a lightweight alternative for > 103 weight watchers. If the water is held in solution by the ethanol it's not a major problem; it's when there's too much, or it separates out, that you have a problem with engine noise (or rather, the lack of it). I forget the exact amount that's soluble but google "olive jar test for ethanol"; it's how you test for ethanol (by adding water to a fuel sample until no more water dissolves). I'd be leery of dropping a dessicant cartridge in my fuel tank; somebody said they're made for diesel fuel, but what about gasoline? And even if they're OK with gasoline, what about ethanol or other additives? -Dana -- People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to pick on rich women than biker gangs. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:36 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve From: william sullivan >.................. The cartridge (if it works on E-10) would be a lightweight safety backup for a gascolator, plus has the advantage of no plumbing, visual checking for water, or a lightweight alternative for 103 weight watchers. > Bill, The best back up is to ensure no water gets into the tank. When fuel is low in the five gallon FireFly tank, it is very easy to look in through the bung to see if there is water on the tank bottom. Also, since I refuel with 2.5 gallon plastic cans, it is very easy to do the same with them. When refueling, I never pour out the last drop into the FireFly tank. This captures all water and debris in the bottom of the refueling cans. I remove the FireFly tank in the Spring and purge out the accumulated water and debris. It is rare to get more than a dimes volume of water from the tank. I have never found any water in the Bing float bowl. Normally I do not purge the refilling cans, as I use the remaining fuel as oil slosh fuel before refilling the cans. But when I can see some build up, I will purge the refilling cans too. One must be careful when refueling from other than your own cans, etc. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:33 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve Dana- That is why I was asking.- I don't know about compatability with a gas/oil mix.- I am wondering about the supposed tendabcy of E-10 to pick up and suspend quantities of water from, say, high humidity.- Naturally, the bulk of raw water would be easy to get out of straight mo-gas with an M R filter or gascolator, but what about E-10 that already has absorbed an am ount of water.- Would the alcohol permit the water to go through the MR? - Would a dessicant draw the water from the alcohol/ water mix?- Curios ity on my part, now that straight mo-gas is not available around here any m ore. - ------------------------- ----------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ----------------------- Winds or Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:33:31 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve Me too. I don't want any dessicant or magic beads or whatever in my gas tanks. Things that may dissolve or fall apart. A gascolator is great although I run only a throwaway filter, which DOES get thrown away every spring. Old gas or leftovers from the bottom of the refueling tank go into lawnmowers and tractors. In the spring I peek into the tanks for debris, bugs, etc. With my dip tubes there would have to be a lot of water/crap in there before anything got picked up. So far no problems. Once upon a time I bought an airplane that had been parked outside and flew it away in blissful ignorance. I had emptied the glass gascolator on preflight and figured that was good enuff. I flew it from Delaware, put it down in a windstorm halfway to my southern Maryland destination, continued a few days later with no mechanical problems from a very tired, worn out old airplane. The next evening, after work, I had the cowling off and happened to look at that glass bowl again. Full of water. The gas (and whatever else) had been skimming right over the top. Old airplane never missed a beat. I'm grateful. BB do not archive On 3, Apr 2009, at 1:17 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 07:27 AM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote: >> I agree that a gascolator is a very valuable component of the >> fuel system, but I am thinking of the water held in the fuel by >> the alcohol in E-10. I was wondering if a desiccant cartridge >> could extract the water from the alcohol before it reached the >> gascolator. Anyone know enough chemistry to determine how much >> water could be absorbed by E-10 before it reaches a saturation >> point? The catridge (if it works on E-10) would be a lightweight >> safety backup for a gascolator, plus has the advantage of no >> plumbing, visual checking for water, or a lightweight alternative >> for 103 weight watchers. > > If the water is held in solution by the ethanol it's not a major > problem; it's when there's too much, or it separates out, that you > have a problem with engine noise (or rather, the lack of it). I > forget the exact amount that's soluble but google "olive jar test > for ethanol"; it's how you test for ethanol (by adding water to a > fuel sample until no more water dissolves). > > I'd be leery of dropping a desiccant cartridge in my fuel tank; > somebody said they're made for diesel fuel, but what about > gasoline? And even if they're OK with gasoline, what about ethanol > or other additives? > > -Dana > -- > People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's > safer to pick on rich women than biker gangs. > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:03 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve At 02:00 PM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote: >I am wondering about the supposed tendabcy of E-10 to pick up and suspend >quantities of water from, say, high humidity. Naturally, the bulk of raw >water would be easy to get out of straight mo-gas with an MR filter or >gascolator, but what about E-10 that already has absorbed an amount of >water. Would the alcohol permit the water to go through the MR? Yes. There is a difference between a suspension and a solution. Suspension is what you have when you shake the oil and vinegar for your salad (vinegar being basically water). It mixes, sort of, but the water is still in discrete blobs and but settles back out immediately. That's what a Mr Funnel strains out. A solution is different, like stirring sugar into your tea. It dissolves (up to a point) and is no longer identifiable as separate clumps... and can't be strained out. Mix water into gas containing ethanol, and some will go into solution, up to the saturation limit. A Mr Funnel won't take it out (and I don't believe dessicant would either, but I could be wrong). Add more and it settles to the bottom (or suspension if you shake it). The Mr Funnel will take only that part of it out. -Dana -- Politicians are those who deal with the problems which would not exist if they didn't exist. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:17 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve - Dana- Now the question is whether it is possible to get some E-10 that for some reason has already absorbed say, about 95% of the water it is capa ble of soaking up.- If this will go through an MR funnel, will the gascol ator remove it?- Also, how much performance would be lost with the combin ation of 10% alcohol, plus all the water?- I am just doing a little intel lectual speculation here, I don't have anything specific in mind.- Or, po ssibly find a little insurance against water absorption in gas (E-10) store d long term in aircraft or in reserve cans.- I understand long term witho ut Sta-Bil is around 30 days, and it does seem to lose it's volitility in p ower equipment stored over a season- lawn mowers, etc. - ------------------------- ------------------------ Bi ll Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------ Wi ndsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:23 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve From: "Dana" OK, here's my new transparent gascolator. As I've said, I don't want a large heavy expensive aircraft gascolator for my ultralight, don't want a cheap glass tractor gascolator with no drain, either, but I do want to be able to see what's inside... so I made my own (see attached picture). Basically, it's a 3" x 1.75" x 1" polycarbonate block with nylon fittings and a Saf-Air drain valve. No filter, since I also have an inline filter. It's not on the plane yet, but it's sitting on my workbench filled with gas/oil mix as a final chemical compatibility check. -Dana Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237589#237589 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuel_strainer_658.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:06 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve At 07:37 PM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote: > Dana- Now the question is whether it is possible to get some E-10 that > for some reason has already absorbed say, about 95% of the water it is > capable of soaking up. If this will go through an MR funnel, will the > gascolator remove it? No, as I said if it's in solution the Mr Funnel won't take it out, and it won't settle out in the gascolator either, unless the temperature drops (the amount that will stay in solution varies with temperature). > Also, how much performance would be lost with the combination of 10% > alcohol, plus all the water? I am just doing a little intellectual > speculation here, I don't have anything specific in mind. Or, possibly > find a little insurance against water absorption in gas (E-10) stored > long term in aircraft or in reserve cans. I understand long term without > Sta-Bil is around 30 days, and it does seem to lose it's volitility in > power equipment stored over a season- lawn mowers, etc. I don't know how much performance you'd lose, but I doubt it's that much. Re old gas, I've used old (6 months +) gas in my PPG and seen no performance difference. This only applies to gas in SEALED containers, though. My rule is, it the gas doesn't smell bad, it's OK (though I'll be draining and refilling my Kolb tanks after the winter,because the tanks AREN'T sealed (Vented). -Dana -- Q: Why is it that New Jersey got all the toxic waste dumps and California got all the lawyers? A: New Jersey had first choice. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:11 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve From: "JetPilot" Dana That is quite a nice rendering of your gascolator, what program did you use to make that picture ? That should be great, given that you check your plastic tanks anyways, you will probably never get more than a trace of water in your system. The biggest problem is, most f us don't have the materials and ability to make a gascolator, I suppose I could build one, but it would take so much time and effort, probably days, that I am better off to spend the 80 bucks. The one from Aircraft Spruce weights only about 8 ounces, and not so big that it would look out of place on an ultralight. The important thing is that we have a gascolator. As in the case of the outside airplane, the gascolator saved a failed engine by keeping a bunch of water rather then sending it to the carbs. A gascolator is also useful for getting any small solid debris out finds its way into the lines. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! 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