Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:27 AM - Re: Stits (pj.ladd)
2. 05:35 AM - Re: Stits (Dana Hague)
3. 07:33 AM - Re: Stits (b young)
4. 09:21 AM - Re: Stits (Dennis Souder)
5. 01:36 PM - Re: Stits (John Hauck)
6. 02:43 PM - Re: Stits (Jack B. Hart)
7. 03:09 PM - Re: Stits (Herb)
8. 04:22 PM - Re: Stits (John Hauck)
9. 04:33 PM - Re: Stits (william sullivan)
10. 04:49 PM - Re: Stits (Larry Cottrell)
11. 05:19 PM - John Williamson (Kirkds)
12. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Stits (John Hauck)
13. 05:39 PM - Re: Arty Trost (N111KX (Kip))
14. 05:42 PM - Re: John Williamson (N111KX (Kip))
15. 05:58 PM - Re: John Williamson (Kirkds)
16. 06:22 PM - Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing (John Hauck)
17. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Stits (robert bean)
18. 06:25 PM - Re: Stits (william sullivan)
19. 06:39 PM - Re: harmonics (lucien)
20. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Stits (Dana Hague)
21. 06:48 PM - Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing (robert bean)
22. 07:09 PM - Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing (John Hauck)
23. 07:32 PM - Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing (robert bean)
24. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: Stits (Herb)
25. 07:46 PM - Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing (Charlie England)
26. 08:02 PM - Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing (The BaronVonEvil)
27. 08:04 PM - Re: FireFly - Stits - Weight - Wheels-Tires & Optional Items (jerb)
28. 08:32 PM - Re: Stits (jerb)
29. 08:40 PM - Re: John Williamson (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
Message 1
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ACS cheap 1.8 ounce Dacron, and the Poly Fiber 1.7 ounce at twice the
price. >>
In the Uk we have recently approved for a/s use a covering which is pre
coloured. It is applied and then heat shrunk in the way modellers have
been doing for some time.
Apparently expensive but cheaper than fabric plus paint and certainly
cheaper in terms of time taken.
For what its worth
Pat
Message 2
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At 05:26 AM 4/12/2009, pj.ladd wrote:
> ACS cheap 1.8 ounce Dacron, and the Poly Fiber 1.7 ounce at twice the
>price. >>
>
>In the Uk we have recently approved for a/s use a covering which is pre
>coloured. It is applied and then heat shrunk in the way modellers have
>been doing for some time.
>
>Apparently expensive but cheaper than fabric plus paint and certainly
>cheaper in terms of time taken.
Oratex, it's called... one of the guys over on
http://homebuiltairplanes.com recently got some samples; he wasn't
impressed with the appearance.
-Dana
--
Alpha test version: too buggy to release. Beta test version: still too
buggy to release. Release 1.0: alternate pronounciation of beta test
version.
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In the Uk we have recently approved for a/s use a covering which is pre
coloured. It is applied and then heat shrunk in the way modellers have been
doing for some time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Is it treated someway for UV protection? If so how long should it last if
exposed to sunlight?
Boyd Young
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Hi Pat,
Sounds very interesting!
Does the fabric have a name? Source?
Thanks
Dennis
_____
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of pj.ladd
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stits
ACS cheap 1.8 ounce Dacron, and the Poly Fiber 1.7 ounce at twice the
price. >>
In the Uk we have recently approved for a/s use a covering which is pre
coloured. It is applied and then heat shrunk in the way modellers have been
doing for some time.
Apparently expensive but cheaper than fabric plus paint and certainly
cheaper in terms of time taken.
For what its worth
Pat
Message 5
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Not saying Herb's method won't work, but it is not the prescribed method
for the Polyfiber System.
Personally, I'll continue to cover and process like the book dictates.
Don't won't to take chances with improperly processed fabric to save a
nickle.
john h
mkIII
A Firefly needs its fabric treated with a 50-50 mix of brush
and spray...after the first coat of poly brush is applied in the
normal way...and use 50-50 til you are satisfied that the uv
protection is good... Two cross coats is good enough IMHO
... you are trying to make weight after all... and this stuff does
add wt...
Herb,
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From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
In the Uk we have recently approved for a/s use a covering which is pre
coloured. It is applied and then heat shrunk in the way modellers have been
doing for some time.
Apparently expensive but cheaper than fabric plus paint and certainly
cheaper in terms of time taken.
>
Pat,
Thansk for the tip.
Googled it and found: http://www.g-tlac.com/oratex.html
Claims to weight 120 gram per square meter -> 4.6 ounces per square yard
with no painting required. The "Benefit" list is outstanding.
Spec and instruction manual downloads can be found at this site.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 7
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John
My understanding..and I may be incorrect ...is that the Firefly
(and that is all that was only airframe I meant to discuss) can go
overweight very easily...with the proscribed paint method... Herb
At 03:36 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:
>Not saying Herb's method won't work, but it is not the prescribed
>method for the Polyfiber System.
>
>Personally, I'll continue to cover and process like the book
>dictates. Don't won't to take chances with improperly processed
>fabric to save a nickle.
>
>john h
>mkIII
>
>
> A Firefly needs its fabric treated with a 50-50 mix of brush
>and spray...after the first coat of poly brush is applied in the
>normal way...and use 50-50 til you are satisfied that the uv
>protection is good... Two cross coats is good enough IMHO
>... you are trying to make weight after all... and this stuff does add wt...
>
>
> Herb,
>
>
Message 8
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I don't think not following instructions on application of Polyfiber
products has anything to do with making part 103 weight with a FF.
My concern has nothing to do with FF weight. My primary concern is for
me to apply the products as described in their manual. Then I don't
have to worry about a problem arising some where down the road.
I covered my original FS with 1.6 Stitts. It was difficult to work with
because the threads, warp and weave, was so tight, additional
lubrication was required to keep from burning the threads during the
weaving process. Very light and puntured very easy. Had a hell of a
time trying to keep the poly brush from fish eyeing. Vowed never to use
it again. I think the disignation was HS90X.
I have also used generic fabric, to save a buck. Be careful and buy
generic fabric (not certified with an FAA stamp) from a reputable
aviation supply house. You want to use "virgin" polyester dacron,
dacron that has not been preshrunk.
Every time I hear of someone bending the rules a little with fabric
application I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because he did
not follow instructions. I also think of the fabric we pulled from a
FSII a couple years ago that was painted with automobile paint. The
fabric had lost nearly all of its pull/tear resistance. Was really
scary. I had flown that airplane, I think. ???
john h
mkIII
My understanding..and I may be incorrect ...is that the Firefly
(and that is all that was only airframe I meant to discuss) can go
overweight very easily...with the proscribed paint method... Herb
Message 9
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- John- What happened to Steve Whitman's aircraft?
-
-------------------------
--------------------- Bill Sulliv
an
-------------------------
--------------------- Windsor Loc
ks, Ct.
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No, you hadn't flown it at that time. Unpucker!
Larry C
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stits
I don't think not following instructions on application of Polyfiber
products has anything to do with making part 103 weight with a FF.
My concern has nothing to do with FF weight. My primary concern is
for me to apply the products as described in their manual. Then I don't
have to worry about a problem arising some where down the road.
I covered my original FS with 1.6 Stitts. It was difficult to work
with because the threads, warp and weave, was so tight, additional
lubrication was required to keep from burning the threads during the
weaving process. Very light and puntured very easy. Had a hell of a
time trying to keep the poly brush from fish eyeing. Vowed never to use
it again. I think the disignation was HS90X.
I have also used generic fabric, to save a buck. Be careful and buy
generic fabric (not certified with an FAA stamp) from a reputable
aviation supply house. You want to use "virgin" polyester dacron,
dacron that has not been preshrunk.
Every time I hear of someone bending the rules a little with fabric
application I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because he did
not follow instructions. I also think of the fabric we pulled from a
FSII a couple years ago that was painted with automobile paint. The
fabric had lost nearly all of its pull/tear resistance. Was really
scary. I had flown that airplane, I think. ???
john h
mkIII
My understanding..and I may be incorrect ...is that the Firefly
(and that is all that was only airframe I meant to discuss) can go
overweight very easily...with the proscribed paint method... Herb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
04/12/09 13:14:00
Message 11
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I haven't been on here in a couple of years. Used to go by snuffy. What happened
to John Williamson?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238836#238836
Message 12
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Steve, in his 90's and his wife were flying back to OSH from Sun and
Fun. Somewhere over Tennessee, some fabric peeled off the aileron or
flap (I can not remember which), and the aircraft came apart in the air.
Come to find out, Steve had mixed different kinds of products and it
failed.
I tried to find some info on his accident, but to no avail. Any body
find it in the NTSB Accident Pages? I think it happened in 1994 or 95.
???
A little info on Steve:
http://www.air-racing-history.com/PILOTS/Steve%20Whittman.htm
john h
mkIII
John- What happened to Steve Whitman's aircraft?
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks,
Ct.
Message 13
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I've been following on her excellent website.
Sounds like that old Carrera needed some work before the long trip...
--------
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238840#238840
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Subject: | Re: John Williamson |
Sorry to be the bearer...
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 080530X00757&ntsbno=SEA08LA138&akey=1
He is missed...
--------
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238842#238842
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Subject: | Re: John Williamson |
:( So sorry to hear that.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238843#238843
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Subject: | Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing |
Finally, came up with the date and NTSB page on the Steve Whittman accident:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001207X03218&key=1
john h
mkIII
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If I may:
Steve Wittman Accident
< The February Sport Aviation has a summary of the findings of
the NTSB on the cause of the crash of Steve Wittman=92s O&O Special
last April. To condense and simplify the article greatly, it
appeared that Steve painted the Poly-Fiber covering to the plywood
wing with the nitrate dope he had used for years with natural fiber
wing coverings, instead of with the approved Poly-Brush. The O&O
Special flew for 10 years. The NTSB believes that on the April trip
back to Oshkosh, the fabric in front of the right aileron finally
debonded and ballooned up, which caused the aileron and then both
wings to flutter. The wings separated from the aircraft. The
article stresses the importance of using components approved by the
manufacturer when covering an aircraft.>
Steve came from the era of nitrate dope and had used it for many
years on all his airplanes, racers included. Back then you had the
choice of nitrate or enamel.
Enamel had good flexibility but was awful to use and progressively
shrunk the fabric to the point of bending the underlying structures.
Nitrate had an extremely strong bond, dried fast and was shiny. The
big problem was brittleness so that thick applications would suffer
cracks in flex areas.
One infamous symptom was called "ringworm" because of the circular
cracks around projections. Even later when butyrate paint began
usage nitrate was
used for cementing fabric to structure. IMO the problem began with
polyester fabric. When "grade A" cotton went bad, the whole works,
fabric and paint got tossed.
Now we had fabric that would pass a punch test (don't ask me what I
thought of that procedure) for seemingly forever while the glue and
paint went bad.
Now the poly (vinyl) stuff seems to match up with endurance.
BB
On 12, Apr 2009, at 7:30 PM, william sullivan wrote:
> John- What happened to Steve Whitman's aircraft?
>
> Bill Sullivan
> Windsor Locks, Ct.
>
>
Message 18
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- Thanks, John.- Steve was an interesting character.- I thought the K
olbs were small, but that photo of one of his racers makes a Kolb look like
a transport plane.-
- I am going to stick with the Stits system.- Pat's system looks intere
sting for it's simplicity, but I do not have the experience to consider var
ying from an old standard.- I repaired several small areas that had Aerot
hane, and had no problems.- Appearance was satisfactory.- I am thinking
of Polytone in- the Piper Trainer Blue- as recommended for lightweight c
overings in the manual.- All options open while waiting out the weather.
-
-------------------------
-------------------------
Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
-------------------------
Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
-------------------------
FS 447
Message 19
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Perhaps this may be of interest.
A fellow pilot friend of mine at our airport were talking this over the other day
and he suggested that I try putting the plane into a slip to see what would
happen.
I finally got a small hole in the winds/storms today and went around the patch,
I tried this on downwind a couple times in both directions. The rruurruurruurr
part of the noise sure enough went away. With the pedal near the floor it was
completely gone and there was just the higher frequency hum which I take to
be the blades hitting the relative wind.
So in my case, I'm coming back to the conclusion more and more that I don't have
a safety issue and it's probably ok. Fatigue, however, due to the increased
thrumming I already know is an issue tho I may eventually get used to that too.
But it's enough for me to keep working on it, I'm going to try a different prop
type to see what happens.
PS I spoke to another owner of my model plane who runs the WD and he reports the
same harmonics. He's running the 64" 3 blade taper tip (912ULS also) and is
not concerned about it.
So this may be a helpful diagnostic step to take in general (tho what exactly it
tells you I'm not sure ;)). In my case, it smoothed out in a slip indicating
there probably isn't any balance problem but it just has to do with that big
ol airplane in front of it disturbing the airflow.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238849#238849
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What's the real advantage of Stits over Ceconite/dope? Just the number of
coats required? I've repaired Ceconite (years ago) and Stits (last year)
but never covered an entire airplane.
One thing I noticed is that the Stits chemicals smell much more evil/toxic
than dope...though I realize that could be purely subjective, and I know
neither are really healthy.
-Dana
--
If there was any logic in this world, it would be men who ride
side-saddle, not women.
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing |
That NTSB report is a CYA deal. Cotton fabric and nitrate glues and
dopes are still "approved".
In Steve's case he had cemented cotton over plywood. This was the
usual way to finish such planes with
wood wings such as the Bellanca and Mooney. Nothing lasts forever.
BB
On 12, Apr 2009, at 9:21 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Finally, came up with the date and NTSB page on the Steve Whittman
> accident:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001207X03218&key=1
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing |
> That NTSB report is a CYA deal. Cotton fabric and nitrate glues and
> dopes are still "approved".
> In Steve's case he had cemented cotton over plywood. This was the usual
> way to finish such planes with
> wood wings such as the Bellanca and Mooney. Nothing lasts forever.
> BB
Bob:
Reread the report. Steve put down nitrate on top of the plywood, then
dacron, then more natrate, Stitts stuff, etc. I didn't see anything about
cotton.
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing |
That sounds right. Nitrate dope is absorbed into cotton whereas
dacron won't suck up much of anything.
Stits, ceconite and the AS cheap stuff are all dacron with possibly a
different thread texture or weave.
All the old methods, including using Rando-bond to glue dacron are
still legal as far as I know, whether
a good choice or not. Old methods get grandfathered while some new
and better ideas have to fight for recognition.
You can still legally scarf splice a wooden spar with casein (dried
milk protein) glue but I would prefer
a later product.
BB
On 12, Apr 2009, at 10:08 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> > That NTSB report is a CYA deal. Cotton fabric and nitrate glues and
>> dopes are still "approved".
>> In Steve's case he had cemented cotton over plywood. This was
>> the usual way to finish such planes with
>> wood wings such as the Bellanca and Mooney. Nothing lasts forever.
>> BB
>
>
> Bob:
>
> Reread the report. Steve put down nitrate on top of the plywood,
> then dacron, then more natrate, Stitts stuff, etc. I didn't see
> anything about cotton.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
Message 24
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I was chewing gum and painting Poly Tone , using a breating device
that had charcoal filters..It fit well below mouth and around nose
up to fore head... I noticed after a while that the chewing gum
began to disolve..:-) Acetone and Mek.... in the brew...Herb
At 08:35 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>What's the real advantage of Stits over Ceconite/dope? Just the
>number of coats required? I've repaired Ceconite (years ago) and
>Stits (last year) but never covered an entire airplane.
>
>One thing I noticed is that the Stits chemicals smell much more
>evil/toxic than dope...though I realize that could be purely
>subjective, and I know neither are really healthy.
>
>-Dana
>--
> If there was any logic in this world, it would be men who ride
> side-saddle, not women.
>
>
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>04/12/09 13:14:00
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Subject: | Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing |
________________________________
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 9:08:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing
> That NTSB report is a CYA deal. Cotton fabric and nitrate glues and
> dopes are still "approved".
> In Steve's case he had cemented cotton over plywood. This was the usual way
to finish such planes with
> wood wings such as the Bellanca and Mooney. Nothing lasts forever.
> BB
Bob:
Reread the report. Steve put down nitrate on top of the plywood, then dacron,
then more natrate, Stitts stuff, etc. I didn't see anything about cotton.
john h
mkIII
The story I remember from when it happened went like this:
With the older brand of the synthetic covering, the weave was open enough that
the procedure was to just put the cement on through the fabric to activate the
previously applied cement on the structure.
The newer brand/process had a much tighter weave & the cement couldn't flow through,
so it had to be applied wet under the fabric. Story was, Steve was used
to the old process & because he didn't put the on the cement wet under the fabric,
there was inadequate adhesion; finally failing after years of flying.
I could be wrong; it's happened before (I'm told).
Charlie
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Subject: | Re: Steve Whittman Fatality and Fabric Processing |
Hi All,
In the NTSB report, they indicated Steve had mixed layers of dope and Stits Polyfiber.
Nitrate dope is a cellulose base product while Polyfiber is a vinyl based
material.
Basically there was no continuity between the layers of dope and polyfiber( that
is to say they didn't bond together).
Yes , dope, cotton and polyfiber are "approved" but they should never be used
with one another but only applied as a complete single system or process.
Steve was an icon of aviation and has been greatly missed but, even people of his
great experience and skills make mistakes.
I hope that we can all learn something from this sad lesson.
Carlos G.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238866#238866
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Subject: | Re: FireFly - Stits - Weight - Wheels-Tires & Optional Items |
We went over weight with our Firefly but we made that choice. It can
make the weight - I feel we could have but you don't get much in the
way of extras to do it. We silvered all surfaces with more on top
(two coats) for greater UV protection.
If I recall right when I measured the assembled instrument panel it
weighed right near15#. Had a 3-1/8" airspeed, a 3-1/8" sensitive
altimeter, a electric Variometer (VSI) - (nice & fast reacting), and
G-Meter (heavy little critter) and a few other things. One thing
where a builder of the FireFly can save weight is wheels, we went
with Kolb 6" wheel barrow style wheels with Shin (thin) tires. Later
upgraded to higher quality bearings to reduce the brakes from
grabbing. It had Azusa style internal expansion brakes. I think
there using plastic wheels on them now, I like the 6 inch wheels
better, doesn't work the gear as hard on turf. The FireFly doesn't
need powerful brakes so lighter band brakes with drums rather than
heavy internal expansion type could be used. Another thing is I used
to ride a motor cycle back 35 years ago, but my partner and I found
the wind in a UL is much worst we so added the wrap over front part
of the full enclosure. Much nicer and faster too. Never installed
the flexible vinyl rear portion of the full enclosure.
One note of interest is the tires used on the FireFly. The person
who bought the plane from us thought it was a little touchy on ground
control. My partner and I were both experienced tail wheel pilots
and didn't think it was bad. He claimed with the 400x6's on there,
as soon as you made any power change, it wanted to veer off one way
or the other, and wanted to do it NOW. That made him more than a
little nervous about flying and landing, as he had no tail dragger
time. He went up to the 600x6 tires on the same wheels and it made a
world of difference. Got em from Aircraft Spruce under the
Ultralight Tires section. Reported that with the 600x6's that
problem is all but gone.
jerb
At 05:06 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:
>John
>
> My understanding..and I may be incorrect ...is that the Firefly
> (and that is all that was only airframe I meant to discuss) can go
> overweight very easily...with the proscribed paint method... Herb
>
>
>At 03:36 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:
>>Not saying Herb's method won't work, but it is not the prescribed
>>method for the Polyfiber System.
>>
>>Personally, I'll continue to cover and process like the book
>>dictates. Don't won't to take chances with improperly processed
>>fabric to save a nickle.
>>
>>john h
>>mkIII
>>
>>
>> A Firefly needs its fabric treated with a 50-50 mix of brush
>>and spray...after the first coat of poly brush is applied in the
>>normal way...and use 50-50 til you are satisfied that the uv
>>protection is good... Two cross coats is good enough IMHO
>>... you are trying to make weight after all... and this stuff does add wt...
>>
>>
>> Herb,
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
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Herb,
I believe your concern comes from the fact the factory warns to be
careful so as not to over apply coatings because their weight adds
up. Got to keep in mind that plane was designed to meet the UL
weight limit with minimum features and moderate paint.
If you going to apply multiple thick coats of silver and thick top
coats to archive a super smooth, high gloss paint appearance it will
add weight. After applying heavier coats of silver to top of all
surfaces and little lighter coats to the underneath sides, then
applying top coats, our paint had just a very slight signature of the
weave showing. It looked good then and still did when we sold it 8
years later.
jerb
At 05:06 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:
>John
>
> My understanding..and I may be incorrect ...is that the Firefly
> (and that is all that was only airframe I meant to discuss) can go
> overweight very easily...with the proscribed paint method... Herb
>
>
>At 03:36 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:
>>Not saying Herb's method won't work, but it is not the prescribed
>>method for the Polyfiber System.
>>
>>Personally, I'll continue to cover and process like the book
>>dictates. Don't won't to take chances with improperly processed
>>fabric to save a nickle.
>>
>>john h
>>mkIII
>>
>>
>> A Firefly needs its fabric treated with a 50-50 mix of brush
>>and spray...after the first coat of poly brush is applied in the
>>normal way...and use 50-50 til you are satisfied that the uv
>>protection is good... Two cross coats is good enough IMHO
>>... you are trying to make weight after all... and this stuff does add wt...
>>
>>
>> Herb,
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
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Subject: | Re: John Williamson |
Snuffy
Good to here from you again. Are you still building your Kolb? Are you still
in Michigan? Retired yet?
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirkds" <kirkds@dishmail.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:19 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: John Williamson
>
> I haven't been on here in a couple of years. Used to go by snuffy. What
> happened to John Williamson?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238836#238836
>
>
>
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