---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/23/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:52 AM - Re: Re: Dumb short landing technique question (Tony Oldman) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Another BRS SAVE !!! Here is a guy alive today because he.. (pj.ladd) 3. 04:34 AM - Re: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question (pj.ladd) 4. 04:40 AM - Re: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question (pj.ladd) 5. 04:44 AM - Re: Dumb short short landing technique question (pj.ladd) 6. 05:47 AM - Re: Dumb short short landing technique question (russ kinne) 7. 06:13 AM - Re: Dumb short short landing technique question (pj.ladd) 8. 06:41 AM - slips (russ kinne) 9. 06:58 AM - Re: Another BRS SAVE !!! Here is a guy alive today because he.. (Ralph B) 10. 07:10 AM - Re: slips (lucien) 11. 07:12 AM - Re: slips (Ralph B) 12. 09:38 AM - Re: Dumb short short landing technique question (russ kinne) 13. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: slips (russ kinne) 14. 09:50 AM - Re: Dumb short short landing technique question (Herb) 15. 09:57 AM - q (russ kinne) 16. 10:50 AM - Re: slips (JetPilot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:05 AM PST US From: "Tony Oldman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Dumb short landing technique question MK111c slips fine with flaps . It is a very controlled decent ,not difficult to do ,dumps height real good , you can point a wing tip at the point you wish to be on the ground and go for it { well almost}, lots of fun and not difficult . Tony Downunder MK111c ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:03 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Dumb short landing technique question > > > jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: >> >> >> You are absolutely correct about the training aspect, but possibility of >> receiving training in my FireFly is zero. That is why in my previous post >> that I state to go to altitude and practice. I suspect the 150 manual >> says >> not to combine the slip and flap because the fuselage will blank or >> disturb >> the air flow to the trailing wing. This is not a problem on a FireFly. >> That is why altitude is important practice things before you try them >> close >> to the ground. >> > > > Just FWIW, > > The 150 has no advisories about slipping with flaps - it's the 172 that > has the placard "avoid slips with flaps" on the panel. And the only > consequence there was during the initial flight testing of the 172, some > buffeting was found to sometimes occur against the elevator that could > spook the pilot (I've done a max-effort slip with the flaps out in a 172, > tho, and didn't experience a buffet that particular time). > > Somehow, tho, this particular case somehow got extrapolated into a > restriction that applies to everything with flaps that flies through the > air. The "no slips with flaps" thing is now a legendary argument in > general aviation and truly ugly, bloody jousts continue to be fought over > the myths and legends on aviation newsgroups around the world. > > But the facts as best I can determine as to the origin of the mythology of > slipping with flaps are as follows: > - it all started with the placard in the 172 > - slipping with flaps is NOT dangerous in the 172, can only be spooky and > disconcerting. > - slipping with flaps is NOT prohibited in ALL airplanes with flaps. Many, > in fact most, slip just fine with the flaps deployed (i.e. my titan slips > no problem with full flaps). > > So please, no slips-with-flaps fights on the kolb list. BTDT! ;) > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240736#240736 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:57 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Another BRS SAVE !!! Here is a guy alive today because he.. The failure was due to fabric on this plane. >> Talking to a local Inspector. He had failed 2 ulralights over the weekend for dodgy fabric. A lot of planes in the UK were built in the first flush of enthusiasm and are all growing old together. Perhaps fabric failure is something to look out for especially. The trouble is that some of these older machines may not be considered worth the money for a recover and they will just be put in the back of the barn and forgotten. Anything which reduces the fleet reduces the power of any argument we may have with authority. Just a thought Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:32 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question The important thing is to > keep the power off so that one can steepen the descent. >> If you haven`t got the throttle closed what is the point of slipping? The easiest way to lose height is close the throttle.Slipping, Falling leaves etc come next. Who ever made the comment about long controlled approaches was dead right. If you lose the engine in that position you have no options. Fly to the point ,and height, where you have the field made with no power and then close the throttle to idle. If you are too close then slip. Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:23 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question This is why we can still fly an airplane in a slip or without an working ASI - you still have to practice AoA maintenance to avoid a stall in a slip also just like at other times.>> Hi Lucien, quite right of course but part of my comment was that you are not generating the lift which you might expect because the air is not flowing straight from the leading to trailing edge but is taking a diagonal path across the wing. Of course it can be done but it just needs watching, and practicing. Pat ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:05 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dumb short short landing technique question Am I assuming correctly,that a vario is a rate of climb or descent? instrument?>> Yes. Sorry, its short for variometer which is what glider pilots call it and thats where I started. They are usually much more sensitive than the usual climb and descent instrument used in power planes, They will register if you walk upstairs with one in your hand. Pat ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:10 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dumb short short landing technique question The military-quality GPS's will also do that when you walk up a flight of stairs. Tells you you're now 10' higher! -- has anyone incorporated this into a vario for aircraft use? Will probably happen, if it hasn't already. Russ K do not archive On Apr 23, 2009, at 7:43 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > Am I assuming correctly,that a vario is a rate of climb or descent? > instrument?>> > > Yes. Sorry, its short for variometer which is what glider pilots > call it and thats where I started. > They are usually much more sensitive than the usual climb and > descent instrument used in power planes, They will register if you > walk upstairs with one in your hand. > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:39 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dumb short short landing technique question The military-quality GPS's will also do that when you walk up a flight of stairs. Tells you you're now 10' higher! -< Hi Russ, My small GPS says that it shows flight if 3D but i have never got it to work yet. Its very old and I know the the cheapos they offer for orienteering etc.these days all give heights. Of course the US military is going to switch all the sattelites off without warning one of these days and we shall all crash. Scareee! Pat ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:00 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Kolb-List: slips In re slips & descents -- my 170 was placarded against slips with full flaps. But I never could get it to do more than a slight wobble, and that maybe once in 50 times or so. I slipped it a lot, with no trouble. We did have to berate the jump-plane pilots into doing slips, instead of a closed-throttle screaming spiral down -- which shock-cooled the engine & tended to break rings. OK, that was lots more fun, but treat the engine kindly, fellas! Russ K do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:44 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Another BRS SAVE !!! Here is a guy alive today because he.. From: "Ralph B" Mike, one thing I can say about the Kolb line of experimental aircraft is that many things can be inspected on these aircraft as most if it is out in the open. Another fact about all slow flying aircraft is there is less load on them which equates into less wear on bolts which makes them last longer. I know of many Quicksilver GT-400's that have lasted for many years and they are built with a lot of bolts, unlike the Kolb's that are riveted together. The only bolts and clevis pins I've replaced on my Firestar are the flight controls and the wing clevis pins. I hardly detected any wear when I replaced them after many years of flying. Ralph -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240899#240899 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:23 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: slips From: "lucien" [quote="russ(at)rkiphoto.com"]In re slips & descents -- my 170 was placarded against slips with full flaps. But I never could get it to do more than a slight wobble, and that maybe once in 50 times or so. I slipped it a lot, with no trouble.We did have to berate the jump-plane pilots into doing slips, instead of a closed-throttle screaming spiral down -- which shock-cooled the engine & tended to break rings. OK, that was lots more fun, but treat the engine kindly, fellas! Russ K do not archive > [b] Uh oh. Not the shock-cooling thread again ;). I'll only state my side and then quietly get out of the way. FYI.... It's not the shock _cooling_ that's the problem, it's the shock _heating_ of hammering the cooled engine again to wide open once you're back on the ground. You can take a red hot motor, pull it back to idle and go all the way down to the ground like that with no problems BUT.... be sure and do a warmup again once down before you put the coals to it again. For aircooled folks, if those CHT's get back down to 200F again apply the throttle sloooowly or do a full stop/taxi back. I havn't seen my 912 CHT's drop precipitously in a descent and the oil temps tend to remain up too, but I still always apply power slowly when doing TnG's (I never hammer to wide open unless it's a priority situation). Lets be careful out there with those throttle arms! do not archive LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240901#240901 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:33 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: slips From: "Ralph B" I have slipped the Kolbra with full flaperons and taken off with full flaperons. I did this just yesterday with my heavy son onboard. I'm still debating whether the full flaps makes for a shorter takeoff. There is a lot more drag and slows it down, although full flaperons on the Kolbra are like one notch on regular aircraft. I need to experiment more. I took my neighbor for a ride and he is a good 230 lbs. The Kolbra took awhile to get airborne, but it did climb ok on 80 hp. Ralph -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240902#240902 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:07 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dumb short short landing technique question It's not the GPS that keeps me aloft! -- I devoutly hope. On Apr 23, 2009, at 9:12 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > The military-quality GPS's will also do that when you walk up a > flight of stairs. Tells you you're now 10' higher! -< > > Hi Russ, > My small GPS says that it shows flight if 3D but i have never got > it to work yet. Its very old and I know the the cheapos they offer > for orienteering etc.these days all give heights. > Of course the US military is going to switch all the sattelites off > without warning one of these days and we shall all crash. Scareee! > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:25 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: slips Lucien I was only parroting what our mech said. The landing & taxi-out was basically at idle power, then the plane would sit a little while before launching again. The mech said it was shock-cooling, sounded logical, and I believed him. (Air-blast cooled the cylinders quickly, but not the pistons & rings) But your advice is good & I'll keep it in mind. Russ, quietly out of the way do not archive On Apr 23, 2009, at 10:10 AM, lucien wrote: > > [quote="russ(at)rkiphoto.com"]In re slips & descents -- my 170 > was placarded against slips with full flaps. But I never could get > it to do more than a slight wobble, and that maybe once in 50 > times or so. I slipped it a lot, with no trouble.We did have to > berate the jump-plane pilots into doing slips, instead of a closed- > throttle screaming spiral down -- which shock-cooled the engine > & tended to break rings. > OK, that was lots more fun, but treat the engine kindly, fellas! > Russ K > do not archive > >> [b] > > > Uh oh. Not the shock-cooling thread again ;). I'll only state my > side and then quietly get out of the way. > > FYI.... > > It's not the shock _cooling_ that's the problem, it's the shock > _heating_ of hammering the cooled engine again to wide open once > you're back on the ground. > > You can take a red hot motor, pull it back to idle and go all the > way down to the ground like that with no problems BUT.... be sure > and do a warmup again once down before you put the coals to it > again. For aircooled folks, if those CHT's get back down to 200F > again apply the throttle sloooowly or do a full stop/taxi back. > > I havn't seen my 912 CHT's drop precipitously in a descent and the > oil temps tend to remain up too, but I still always apply power > slowly when doing TnG's (I never hammer to wide open unless it's a > priority situation). > > Lets be careful out there with those throttle arms! > > do not archive > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240901#240901 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:46 AM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dumb short short landing technique question I carry two GPS's and two sets of batteries...:-) Herb At 11:36 AM 4/23/2009, you wrote: >It's not the GPS that keeps me aloft! -- I devoutly hope. > > >On Apr 23, 2009, at 9:12 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > >>The military-quality GPS's will also do that when you walk up a >>flight of stairs. Tells you you're now 10' higher! -< >> >>Hi Russ, >> My small GPS says that it shows flight if 3D but i have never got >> it to work yet. Its very old and I know the the cheapos they offer >> for orienteering etc.these days all give heights. >>Of course the US military is going to switch all the sattelites off >>without warning one of these days and we shall all crash. Scareee! >> >>Pat >> >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>04/23/09 06:30:00 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:14 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Kolb-List: q Sorry list, that was supposed to be off-list ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:12 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: slips From: "JetPilot" Ralph B wrote: > > I need to experiment more. I took my neighbor for a ride and he is a good 230 lbs. The Kolbra took awhile to get airborne, but it did climb ok on 80 hp. > > Ralph How much do you weigh Ralph ? Do you put the passenger in the back seat ? That is a very good load for 80 HP. My Kolb can lift heavy weights just fine, me and a heavy passenger. For me the biggest problem with a heavy passenger is the nose down trim I get from it, my limit is running out of up elevator long before the weight itself becomes an issue. I guess in your Kolb the passenger is closer to the CG, do you get much of a trim change ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! 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