---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/22/09: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:22 AM - Re: MV (dalewhelan) 2. 09:23 AM - Re: MV (dalewhelan) 3. 09:27 AM - Re: MV (dalewhelan) 4. 09:32 AM - Re: MV (dalewhelan) 5. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: MV (robert bean) 6. 09:42 AM - Stripping a Firestar wing (Richard Girard) 7. 10:19 AM - Re: Stripping a Firestar wing (william sullivan) 8. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing (Richard Girard) 9. 11:24 AM - Re: Stripping a Firestar wing (william sullivan) 10. 11:33 AM - Re MV (william sullivan) 11. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: MV (Larry Cottrell) 12. 12:31 PM - Re: Stripping a Firestar wing (JetPilot) 13. 12:47 PM - Re: Is a Mark 3 Xtra considered Light Sport? (F. M. Guidi) 14. 01:09 PM - Re: Is a Mark III considered light sport? (william sullivan) 15. 02:31 PM - Monument Valley (jimhefner) 16. 02:53 PM - Re: Monument Valley (WillUribe@aol.com) 17. 03:05 PM - Air Filter Function & When To Clean (Jack B. Hart) 18. 03:29 PM - Re: Air filter function and when to clean (william sullivan) 19. 03:49 PM - Re: Monument Valley (WillUribe@aol.com) 20. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing (russ kinne) 21. 04:27 PM - Re: Monument Valley (Dave Rains) 22. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: Is a Mark 3 Xtra considered Light Sport? (Richard Girard) 23. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing (Richard Girard) 24. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: Monument Valley (loseyf@comcast.net) 25. 07:57 PM - Re: Re MV (dalewhelan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:04 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MV From: "dalewhelan" My ballast took some photos, I will post some. I am writing about it, I have other things going on so it may take a bit of time. I learned some cool things there. I have been a mechanic for a long time. I like airplanes. I was one of the last ones to leave, the place felt empty without the planes but emptier without the people. I have read about landing with a quartering tailwind. Reading is not the same as doing, and not knowing, and then being blown off the runway without understanding. Further the learning by watching someone else wreck his plane, interview the pilot who said it got away from his all of the sudden, then have Milo who saw the incident say he was the victim of a quartering tail wind. Wow, I finally get it! I like the photo of all the people helping load the plane, and I like the tail booms. Rebeka seems to have a good eye for this picture taking stuff. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244972#244972 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc01975_209.jpg ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:12 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MV From: "dalewhelan" Team work -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244974#244974 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02031_346.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:27 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MV From: "dalewhelan" It's in the dirt, safe at first -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244975#244975 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02025_194.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:31 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MV From: "dalewhelan" The trip back down the runway Sorry about the size of the photos -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244976#244976 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02037_622.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:37 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MV I was going to ask for more details but this last pic tells the story. BB, steel legs on and brakes bled. Time to tow it up the hill. On 22, May 2009, at 12:26 PM, dalewhelan wrote: > > > It's in the dirt, safe at first > > -------- > Dale Whelan > 503 powered Firestar II > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244975#244975 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02025_194.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:38 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Stripping a Firestar wing From: Richard Girard So how long does it take to strip all the fabric off the wings of a five rib Firestar? About 4 hours including removing the aileron hinges from both wings and ailerons.First the reason for the task. I had some hangar rash that needed attention and began the process of doing patches per the Poly Fiber manual. Hmmmm, shouldn't there be some evidence of Poly Brush? I mean, unless you specifically order it with no colorant, it's bright orange red. Sort of hard to miss. There was some evidence along the leading and trailing edge tubes, otherwise, nada, and truthfully, there wasn't much along the tubes, either. And silver, how about a little Poly Spray? There did appear to be some, maybe one coat, but certainly not the recommended three coats cross sprayed. Hmmmmm, again. Okay, there was the choice to get a couple of 5 gallon cans of MEK, strip the Poly Spray and Poly Tone down to bare fabric and start over from there. Then came the killers that sealed the deal to strip. First, there was one 6" long cut just behind the leading edge on the top surface of one wing. My intention was to cut a hole to remove the ragged edges of the cut and patch around the leading edge so that neither edge of the patch would face the wind stream. When my handy dandy box knife snagged the cloth near the leading edge the material virtually fell off. This was confirmed later when the decision to strip and recover was made, With a few exceptions like the root rib, the fabric was held on more by the rivets than any combination of Poly Tack and Poly Brush. Second, were the type and placement of reinforcing tapes. They edges of the tapes weren't pinked and, on the leading edge, they weren't there. There were tapes, but they were rotated around such that the straight edge was directly into the airstream. Per the Poly Fiber manual, tapes are applied over structure. Well, they were, sort of, about an inch or so, the rest was on the bottom fabric of the wing. On the trailing edge there didn't seem to be any tapes at all. Once the fabric was off the inspection of structure began. There was a fair amount of corrosion on the leading and trailing edges and on the rib tubes of the root ribs. It's mostly on the surface, you can wipe it off with light finger pressure, but there are lots of rusted rivets. Did I mention there were no drain grommets on the fabric, either? Inspection patches? Fagidaboutit. So, in conclusion, it's an old five rib Firestar, built in the early 90's and first put into service around '94. No attempt to add any corrosion protection was done to any of the wing components, no provision was made for draining condensation or inspection, and the fabric job was someone's idea of how to save a little weight at the expense of UV protection. Plans for restoration? Remove steel rivets in small sections and replace with SS after removing any underlying corrosion and treating with alodine. Recover per Appendix A with the Navajo Silver option to save weight but get full UV protection. In conclusion, the purpose of this little treatise is to give ya'll something to think about, provide a little data on the service life of these cool little birds, and maybe keep new builders from making some of the mistakes the builder of this Firestar made. As my friend, Steve, always said, "For a nickel more, you can go first class." Rick ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:12 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing - Rick- You better think about re-covering-the rest of it, too.--I asked the guys on the List about the steel rivets, as I had found some.- John H. said the early ones were shipped with regular rivets.- Stripping time-was about the same for me, but my fabric was well glued down (both w ing sets) and riveted on one, and stitched on the other.- I did have drai n holes, so no corrosion other than light rust on rivet heads.- Sounds li ke you were very lucky to have found out now, rather than in the air.- My wings were probably built around 1986.- I don't know how long after that they changed to- SS rivets.- Good luck. - ------------------------- ------------------ Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------ Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------ FS 447 (wing coverin g starting soon- 5 rib type)- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing From: Richard Girard Oh yeah, no plans to stop at this point. It wood look strange with different color wings and tail. There are other things that need to be fixed, too. Struts put together with pop rivets only, minor things like that. She'll be a new bird when I'm done. Rick On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:18 PM, william sullivan wrote: > Rick- You better think about re-covering the rest of it, too. I asked > the guys on the List about the steel rivets, as I had found some. John H. > said the early ones were shipped with regular rivets. Stripping time was > about the same for me, but my fabric was well glued down (both wing sets) > and riveted on one, and stitched on the other. I did have drain holes, so > no corrosion other than light rust on rivet heads. Sounds like you were > very lucky to have found out now, rather than in the air. My wings were > probably built around 1986. I don't know how long after that they changed > to SS rivets. Good luck. > > Bill Sullivan > Windsor Locks, Ct. > FS 447 (wing covering starting > soon- 5 rib type) > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:19 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing - Rick- My original struts were the old pop rivet style.- The crash sna pped one through the middle portion of the tube, and bent a steel end on th e other.- No rivet failure.- Mine had all rivet heads sealed with silic one or something.- I understand the new style is bolted together, and I a m going to order some.- Right now I have a set of streamlined steel ones- over 9 pounds for the pair.- Way too heavy. - ------------------------- ------------------------ Bi ll Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------ FS 447 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:51 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re MV - Dale- Whose plane is that?- Is he OK?- - ------------------------- ------------------ Bill Sullivan ------------------------- -------------------Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------ FS 447 do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:55 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MV Gang, regarding the cause of the "faux paux". with Gary's plane. I cannot say of course for obvious reasons as to what did cause the problem, but since I have experienced something similar, I can make a "WAG". One of the biggest problems with landing in a cross wind with a break away tail wheel is that it breaks with very little rudder input. If you have a cross wind and you give it enough rudder to stay on the runway your tail wheel is going to be loose when you land on the ground. That will allow your plane to ground loop, which could very likely result in the situation that Gary found himself in. What I did with mine was to take the bolt or the tail wheel assembly out and hog out or extend the groove that keeps the wheel slaved to the rudder. With mine, it will only break loose with maximum rudder input. Keep in mind that your reality may be a bit different than mine. Larry C Having fun with all the company. ----- Original Message ----- From: robert bean To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MV I was going to ask for more details but this last pic tells the story. BB, steel legs on and brakes bled. Time to tow it up the hill. On 22, May 2009, at 12:26 PM, dalewhelan wrote: > > > It's in the dirt, safe at first > > -------- > Dale Whelan > 503 powered Firestar II > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244975#244975 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02025_194.jpg > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 05/22/09 06:03:00 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:25 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing From: "JetPilot" I would most defiantly recover the tail while you are at it. The tail section of a Kolb take a huge beating from the prop. The fabric on my tail surfaces is more stressed than the fabric on the wings on my MK III with 100 HP due to prop blast. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244996#244996 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:11 PM PST US From: "F. M. Guidi" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Is a Mark 3 Xtra considered Light Sport? Maybe you fellas can help me too. I've inherited a Firestar MK I w/Rotax 366 engine from my father-in-law. It has been trailer for a long period of time since he hadn't flown it in about 10 years. He had ran the engine regularly from my understanding. I has about 300 hrs on it. Fabric looks okay with no major issues. Chute will obliviously need re-packing. Engine will need a overhaul. I'm pretty sure it's not registered and my question is what is required to get it registered as a light sport aircraft? Is a deadline approaching? Thanks Frank Time: 08:15:45 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Is a Mark 3 Xtra considered Light Sport? From: "ces308" Thank you Rick....That is what I thought too,but when the FAA guy finished inspected the airplane last Wednesday we talked about that and he said I needed a pilots license to fly it...??? He said it didn't fall in that category ...not wanting to argue with the guy who was going to sign off my airplane ,I decided to find out later,as maybe he was mistaken . I looked it up in the FAR's and it looked like it fit that category to me too. chris ambrose m3x/jab ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:18 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Is a Mark III considered light sport? - I never heard of a Firestar "Mark I".- You may have an "original Fire star"- one of the old ones.- It may have been built to 103 specs, and not need registration.- Are you familiar with those specs?- How many full ribs on each wing (not counting the root rib)?- What accessories- brakes, full canopy?- How big is the gas tank?- The 366 engine has me wonderin g.- Any photos available?- I went through identification problems last year with mine, and the guys on the List were very helpful and informative. - Please be patient for an answer- a lot of the regulars on the List are out of town at MV. - ------------------------- --------------------- Bill Sulliv an ------------------------- --------------------- Windsor Loc ks, Ct. ------------------------- --------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:34 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Monument Valley From: "jimhefner" Here are some photos from my trip. It was good to see many familiar faces again, especially Tom and Betty Kuffel, and to meet some new ones. Always a good time. http://picasaweb.google.com/HefnerJim/20090517MonumentValleyKolbGathering# -------- Jim Hefner Tucson, AZ Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245003#245003 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:19 PM PST US From: WillUribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Monument Valley Uncle Craig's breakfast Muchas gracias **************Recession-proof vacation ideas. Find free things to do in the U.S. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-ideas/domestic/national-tourism-week?ncid=emlcntustrav00000002) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:58 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Air Filter Function & When To Clean Kolbers, About a month ago there was quite a discussion about air filter cleaning, oiling etc., under the subject "One Thing At A Time". A couple of days ago I was at a farm implement dealer to pick up some parts for my lawn mower. While there I walked down the line of used commercial zero turn mowers. I noticed one had little gadget attached to an air cleaner. It was a "Filter Minder". I Goolged it and found out it is made by a http://www.filterminder.com. Evidently they supply K&N as can be seen at: http://www.knfilters.com/filterminder.htm. The beauty of this device is that one does not have to watch it continuously to determine what the pressure drop is over the filter element. It records and maintains the highest recorded drop across the filter medium. More than likely this will happen at max rpm, and so one can watch it over a period of time to see how the pressure drop increases and decide at what point to change/clean the filter. FWIW - you may want to check it out. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:23 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Air filter function and when to clean - Jack- The filter minder has been in use on heavy trucks for many years, and they have always worked very nicely.- Very light, too. - ------------------------- ---------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ---------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ---------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:11 PM PST US From: WillUribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Monument Valley John H keeping up with foreign relations W for John W. **************Recession-proof vacation ideas. Find free things to do in the U.S. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-ideas/domestic/national-tourism-week?ncid=emlcntustrav00000002) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:10 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing Mike You would recover the tail DEFIANTLY?? That do seem odd -- On May 22, 2009, at 3:30 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > I would most defiantly recover the tail while you are at it. The > tail section of a Kolb take a huge beating from the prop. The > fabric on my tail surfaces is more stressed than the fabric on the > wings on my MK III with 100 HP due to prop blast. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244996#244996 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:01 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Monument Valley From: "Dave Rains" Monument Valley was a great success! Sorry I missed Uncle Craig's breakfast, was flying kids, (one left a jacket in my plane, hope his mother isn't' mad at me) until mid morning. Thanks for the home brew Larry, couldn't get enough! I recommend next year we take one of those tour trucks as a group, and see the sites from the ground too. Also, we should do a professional type story of the Kolb fly-in, with photos/history and submit it to EAA for publication. John W. showed us the way. Dave -------- Dave Rains N8086T Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245016#245016 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Is a Mark 3 Xtra considered Light Sport? From: Richard Girard Frank, The deadlline for conversion to experimental light sport passed in Jan 31,2008 UNLESS you have a registration issued before that date, then the deadline is extended to Jan 31, 2010. If your father in law has a builders log you could try getting it through as experimental amatuer built, but since the aircraft has been flown as an ultralight you probably don't have much chance of getting that one either. If you don't care about going much of anyplace and just flying around the patch occasionally you could go experimental exhibition and hope for an inspector with a liberal bent toward the category since they can write some stiff restrictions into your operating limitations. Best bet is look up your local EAA chapter and see if they can help. They might be able to point you toward an inspector who'll help. Rick On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 2:45 PM, F. M. Guidi wrote: > > > Maybe you fellas can help me too. > I've inherited a Firestar MK I w/Rotax 366 engine from my father-in-law. > It has been trailer for a long period of time since he hadn't flown it in > about 10 years. > He had ran the engine regularly from my understanding. I has about 300 hrs > on it. > Fabric looks okay with no major issues. Chute will obliviously need > re-packing. Engine will need a overhaul. > I'm pretty sure it's not registered and my question is what is required to > get it registered as a light sport aircraft? Is a deadline approaching? > Thanks > Frank > > Time: 08:15:45 PM PST US > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Is a Mark 3 Xtra considered Light Sport? > From: "ces308" > > > Thank you Rick....That is what I thought too,but when the FAA guy finished > inspected > the airplane last Wednesday we talked about that and he said I needed a > pilots license to fly it...??? He said it didn't fall in that category > ...not > wanting to argue with the guy who was going to sign off my airplane ,I > decided > to find out later,as maybe he was mistaken . I looked it up in the FAR's > and > it looked like it fit that category to me too. > > chris ambrose > m3x/jab > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Stripping a Firestar wing From: Richard Girard Before everyone chimes in, I just haven't gotten that far in the project. I just wanted to get my thoughts down while they were fresh. And before anyone wants to remind to recover the fuselage, yes, I'll do that, too. :-) Rick On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:56 PM, russ kinne wrote: > > Mike > You would recover the tail DEFIANTLY?? > That do seem odd -- > > > On May 22, 2009, at 3:30 PM, JetPilot wrote: > >> >> I would most defiantly recover the tail while you are at it. The tail >> section of a Kolb take a huge beating from the prop. The fabric on my tail >> surfaces is more stressed than the fabric on the wings on my MK III with 100 >> HP due to prop blast. >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you >> could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244996#244996 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Monument Valley From: loseyf@comcast.net Is there a date for 2010 yet? ------Original Message------ From: Dave Rains Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: May 22, 2009 7:26 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Monument Valley Monument Valley was a great success! Sorry I missed Uncle Craig's breakfast, was flying kids, (one left a jacket in my plane, hope his mother isn't' mad at me) until mid morning. Thanks for the home brew Larry, couldn't get enough! I recommend next year we take one of those tour trucks as a group, and see the sites from the ground too. Also, we should do a professional type story of the Kolb fly-in, with photos/history and submit it to EAA for publication. John W. showed us the way. Dave -------- Dave Rains N8086T Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245016#245016 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:32 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Re MV From: "dalewhelan" I think his name is Roger, but it may be Gary. He was fine and in good spirits. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245040#245040 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.