Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:22 AM - Re: Video of John H arriving at Rock House (Tony Oldman)
2. 04:49 AM - Re: Fw: The kit has arrived! (loseyf@comcast.net)
3. 05:23 AM - Re: Fw: The kit has arrived! (Michael Sharp)
4. 06:49 AM - Link to MV/Rock House Pictures (John Bickham)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: Video of John H arriving at Rock House (lucien)
6. 06:55 AM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (JetPilot)
7. 07:30 AM - Re: Monument Valley (jimhefner)
8. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Mike Welch)
9. 08:18 AM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (lucien)
10. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Ron @ KFHU)
11. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (John Hauck)
12. 11:57 AM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Brad Stump)
13. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (HShack@aol.com)
14. 01:22 PM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Ron @ KFHU)
15. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Dana Hague)
16. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Dana Hague)
17. 05:42 PM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (JetPilot)
18. 07:01 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (John Hauck)
19. 08:31 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (b young)
20. 11:01 PM - Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
21. 11:06 PM - Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Video of John H arriving at Rock House |
Shows up on mine the same. Always has done.I still open and have a look,
John leads such a interesting life with many experiences that I have
always thought the risk worth taking .Less risky than his landing posted
in the last vidio. Keep it up,
Tony
Downunder
MK111c 503
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Cottrell
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:18 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Video of John H arriving at Rock House
For some reason my computer flags John's posts on that computer as
phishing, it also marked my reply to his post as the same phishing as
the original even though I "unblocked" it. Did they show up that was on
other computers or is it just mine?
Larry
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Fw: The kit has arrived! |
VGhhbmtzIFJpY2shICBJIGhhdmUgYSBNaWNyb3NvZnQgcHJvamVjdCB0aW1ldGFibGUgd2l0aCBt
aWxlc3RvbmVzLi4uSSBhbSB1c3VhbGx5IGdvb2QgYXQgY29tcGxldGlvbiBhcyBsb25nIGFzIEkg
aGF2ZSBtaWxlc3RvbmVzIHNldC4gIEkgYW0gYXBwcmVjaWF0aXZlIG9mIHRoZSBvZmZlciBmb3Ig
cXVlc3Rpb25zIGFuZCBhbnN3ZXJzIGFuZCB3aWxsIGFzayBpZiBJIGFtIHVuc3VyZS4NCg0KVGhh
bmtzIGFnYWluLg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgQmxhY2tCZXJyeQ0KDQot
LS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogIlJpY2hhcmQgJiBNYXJ0aGEgTmVpbHNl
biIgPE5laWxzZW5STUBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldD4NCg0KRGF0ZTogU3VuLCAzMSBNYXkgMjAwOSAyMTo1
ODozMiANClRvOiA8a29sYi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogS29sYi1M
aXN0OiBGdzogVGhlIGtpdCBoYXMgYXJyaXZlZCENCg0KDQpUaGlzIGlzIGEgbXVsdGktcGFydCBt
ZXNzYWdlIGluIE1JTUUgZm9ybWF0Lg0KDQo
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Fw: The kit has arrived! |
Fran!!=C2- A person after my own heart!!!=C2- =0A=0AMy plan was/is in P
3.... I have so much negative float that it's scary!!!!=0A=0AUs nerds gota
stick together!!!!=0A=0A=0AMike=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________________
___=0AFrom: "loseyf@comcast.net" <loseyf@comcast.net>=0ATo: kolb-list@matro
nics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 1, 2009 6:46:18 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List:
Fw: The kit has arrived!=0A=0A=EF=BB Thanks Rick! I have a Microso
ft project timetable with milestones...I am usually good at completion as l
ong as I have milestones set. I am appreciative of the offer for questions
and answers and will ask if I am unsure.=0A=0AThanks again. =0ASent from my
Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Ri
chard & Martha Neilsen" =0ADate: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:58:32 -0400=0ATo: <kol
b-list@matronics.com>=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: The kit has arrived!=0A
=0AFran=0A=C2-=0ACongratulations.=0A=C2-=0AI set up a work schedule/goa
l of one hour a day. In = the beginning it was much more than that b
ut as time went by I would work a = bunch of hours on week ends and
try to get at least a hour a day during the week = after work. After
three years it worked out to be about one hour per day. I = figured
about a extra year to put the the VW on the plane so really only two = y
ears to build the plane. Now with most of the details worked out the V
W should = only take a extra month or so. My point is set a realisti
c goal and don't get = burned out with to much work a one time. Don'
t make=C2-a bunch of=C2-changes to = the plane, this can really
expand the time to build.=C2-Also watch out for = AIDS (aviation i
nduced divorce syndrome).=C2-=0A=C2-=0AHave fun, keep us up to date on
your progress, and = ask questions. We are here to help.=0A=C2-=0A
I haven't heard from you guys that are working on VW = powered Kolbs
for a long time. Are you still working on them?????? At home = coming th
is year I want to see at least one more VW flying.=0A=C2-=0ADo not a
rchive=0A=C2-=0ARick Neilsen=0ARedrive VW powered MKIIIC=0A=C2-=0A=C2
-=0A----- Original Message ----- From: loseyf@comcast.net =0ATo: kol
b-list@matronics.com ==0ASent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 7:57 = PM=0ASubject
: Kolb-List: Fw: The kit = has arrived!=0AResending...Matronics like
s this address.=0A=0ASent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=0A___________
_____________________=0AFrom: =0ADate: Sun, 31 May 2009 = 19:48:46 -
0400=0ATo: < loseyf@comcast.net>=0ASubje= ct: Fw: The kit has arrive
d!=0A=0A=0AFran Losey Director of = Technical Services=0A___________
_____________________=0AFrom: Losey, Fran [ENP/ALBER] ==0ATo: kolb-l
ist@matronics.com = < kolb-list@matronics.com> =0ACc: Travis Brown <
travis@tnkolbaircraft.com> ==0ASent: Sun May 31 19:30:14 2009=0ASubj
ect: The kit has arrived! ==0A=0AJust posting a note to say I have now st
arted the = process..of building.=0A=C2-=0AMy MK3X kit a
rrived yesterday thanks to the fine = folks at Kolb, and Brian and H
elen who delivered.=C2- I truly enjoyed their = Company, and can s
ay that good folks make all the difference in the world when = making a
decision of this type.=0A=C2-=0AI have a grin bigger than Bob the E
nzyte guy!=0A=C2-=0ASincerely,=0A=C2-=0AFran = Losey N62FL
(reserved)=C2-=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~= =EF=B
F=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=03g(=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BDM=EF= =BDGq=EF=BDz=EF
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =C2
=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3
=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=AA=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8
^*=B0[.+-f=C2=A2=9DZ+=C2=BAt=C2=B1=C3=ABax=C3=86=C2=AD=C2=AE
=B0=C3=A2r=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=91^j=C3=9B=C2=ABz=C3=83Z=C2=BE(=C2=B6=C5
-=C3=AD=C2=A1=C2=BA=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=C2=B6=C2j|=B9=C5-=C3=8Bn
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=C2=A3 =C3=A5=C2=A1=C2=A7{ =C2=AC=EF=BD=C2=AE=C5=92,x(Z=C2=B4P
Message 4
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Subject: | Link to MV/Rock House Pictures |
If you are interested.....
Here is the link to my pictures from the trip to MV and then on to the Rock House.
http://kolbadventures.shutterfly.com/
I posted them on Shutterfly. I think you can save or print whatever you like that
way, if you so desire.
John H, let me know if you need me to send the pictures of the mine directly to
Tony.
I have a few videos that I want to download to YouTube when I get a chance. Still
catching up on chores. I'll let you know when I get to that.
http://kolbadventures.blogspot.com/
--------
Thanks too much,
John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA
I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that
I have the greatest respect for.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246288#246288
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Video of John H arriving at Rock House |
Hmm... Looks like just a typical spring/summer day where I live. Wind won't go
below 15G25 until Sept here ;).
Former partner in my titan was practicing landings in his RV6-A yesterday with
his instructor while I was watching on the ground. Don't think I've ever seen
a plane that big and heavy yaw and pitch all by itself that much on short final
ever.
I put my FSII down in TX in some shifty wind not quite that strong once. Sure was
glad I had that big 68" warp drive honker on it as full throttle was needed
in some of the dips. Drove it onto the runway in a full wheel landing not much
below cruise due to a gust right at the end.
Learned a while back that going to the stops on the controls just to keep the plane
doing what you want is actually not safe and can bend stuff pretty easily.
I was lucky on that landing as the stops were being put to full use on all controls......
Still miss my FSII a bunch tho. May end up building another one in a few years
if Kolb still makes the kit....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246287#246287
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
> On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw back or
move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300 kt it is
obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is something else
then.
>
> -
You could not be more wrong about this. In a high performance propeller plane,
at full power you can easily flip over GA planes over by doing a full power runup
in front of them, and it take a hell of a lot more than 30-40 MPH to do that.
Ever stand behind a Cessna 150 or 172 during a full power runup, it is a
like a hurricane, WAY more than 30-40 MPH. Now I am starting to understand
why you are making some bad assumptions about different props and their effects
on performance here. You do not have an understanding of some of the basics.
captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
> It can be accomplished by a large blade or many small blades. In fact the many
small blades are way better at creating a vacuum in front of the propeller than
a fewer blades attempting the same thing. This is not an opinion this is a
fact of aerodynamics ( all else being equal ).
>
>
Many of your " facts " are wrong, and the facts you do know you have used to come
to some very wrong conclusions. You are not the first person to take a fact,
and make very bad assumptions based on that. For the last 80 years or more,
smaller props would have allowed shorter and lighter landing gear on many military
fighters and WWII, shorter gear on many prop transports, better engine
placement on modern low wing turboprops instead of having to mount engines above
the wings, more prop clearance on the ground resulting in less FOD, and much
better engine placement on pusher type airplanes.
Captain Ron, it is really plausible that airplane designers have just overlooked
all of this and never thought about using small multi-bladed props ? This
issue has been very carefully studied, and researched for many years, and the
FACT is that aircraft designers don't use large props just to make planes heaver
and harder to deal with.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246290#246290
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Monument Valley |
Gary, I enjoyed meeting you at MV and thoroughly enjoyed the ride in your beautiful
Jabiru powered MK-III. Thanks much for the invite! Hope to see you there
again sometime. I hope the rest of your trip was enjoyable for both of you.
I'm glad you made it home safely.
--------
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246297#246297
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
Mike B.
Eloquently put. That's why I decided to not participate in this debate.
When someone says "On the ground at full power the max velocity of the ai
r that you throw back or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most"=2C then you
have to realize your opposition in the argument.
To belabor the point is futile=2C really.
I recall doing a full power runup with an ultralight I had one. 440 Kawa
saki 40 HP=2C seems like all hell was breaking loose. Yeah=2C I know=2C it
was only 40 horses=2C but the wind that sucker blew back moved trees 100 f
eet away. Maybe it got to 42 mph.
Mike Welch
MkIII Geo Turbo=2C blows back air 24 mph
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements.
> From: orcabonita@hotmail.com
> Date: Mon=2C 1 Jun 2009 06:55:00 -0700
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
>
>
> captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw
back or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300
kt it is obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is
something else then.
> >
> > -
>
>
> You could not be more wrong about this. In a high performance propeller p
lane=2C at full power you can easily flip over GA planes over by doing a fu
ll power runup in front of them=2C and it take a hell of a lot more than 30
-40 MPH to do that. Ever stand behind a Cessna 150 or 172 during a full pow
er runup=2C it is a like a hurricane=2C WAY more than 30-40 MPH. Now I am s
tarting to understand why you are making some bad assumptions about differe
nt props and their effects on performance here. You do not have an understa
nding of some of the basics.
>
>
> captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > It can be accomplished by a large blade or many small blades. In fact t
he many small blades are way better at creating a vacuum in front of the pr
opeller than a fewer blades attempting the same thing. This is not an opini
on this is a fact of aerodynamics ( all else being equal ).
> >
> >
>
>
> Many of your " facts " are wrong=2C and the facts you do know you have us
ed to come to some very wrong conclusions. You are not the first person to
take a fact=2C and make very bad assumptions based on that. For the last 80
years or more=2C smaller props would have allowed shorter and lighter land
ing gear on many military fighters and WWII=2C shorter gear on many prop tr
ansports=2C better engine placement on modern low wing turboprops instead o
f having to mount engines above the wings=2C more prop clearance on the gro
und resulting in less FOD=2C and much better engine placement on pusher typ
e airplanes.
>
> Captain Ron=2C it is really plausible that airplane designers have just o
verlooked all of this and never thought about using small multi-bladed prop
s ? This issue has been very carefully studied=2C and researched for many y
ears=2C and the FACT is that aircraft designers don't use large props just
to make planes heaver and harder to deal with.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "=3BNO FEAR"=3B - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as y
ou could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra=2C 912-S
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246290#246290
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail=AE goes with you.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutor
ial_Mobile1_052009
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote:
>
> > On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw back
or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300 kt it
is obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is something
else then.
> >
>
Er, maybe if the AOA of the prop blades is low enough, yeah, you could get a wind
of only 30-40 mph..........
The way I learnt it, a prop is basically just a rotating wing. It's a little different
because the airflow over the different sections of the blade varies due
to it rotating, but the same principles concerning efficiency and mechanical
limits applies to it.
I.e. high-aspect ratio wing sections tend to be more efficient (i.e. have high
L/D ratios) but have lower mechanical limits due to their structure. Low aspect-ration
wing sections are less efficient (low L/D ratios) but have higher mechanical
limits due to structure as well.
This is why, for example, the warp drive prop is so efficient, probably the most
efficient prop you can buy for our light a/c applications. It's got a high-aspect
ratio blade platform with a very thin cross section. Ideal for high L/D
and thus very efficient at producing rotating power into thrust. The main compromise
is blade area to maintain the high AR and keep the diameter within mechanical
restrictions. Blades stall at static and low speed regimes - big whoop,
easily compensated for by correct power usage on the takeoff roll.
Short, stubby props, OTOH, are less efficient for the same reasons (low aspect
ratio) but are used on high-power applications because they can be built strong
as an ox...... That's why fighters have those short low-efficiency wings on
them. Less efficient but that is overcome simply by applying enough power into
the equation ;).
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246302#246302
Message 10
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|
From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
It was a poor choice of words and no sooner I sent it I thought it probably will
cause a bit of a prop blast in my direction. My intent was to dissuade others
from the notion that a prop is a reaction motor such as a rocket, i.e. throwing
a mass backwards to cause Newton's law of equal reaction. :-)
I guess we can argue about my less than brilliant example, but that will not change
any facts about the efficiency of a multi blade prop as compared to a two
blade prop of equal volume of displacement.
Anyway I am chuckling here thinking that drinking a Heineken after a long day and
then posting something of a serious nature does not really further the cause
of science.
---- JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com> wrote:
============
captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
> On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw back or
move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300 kt it is
obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is something else
then.
>
> -
You could not be more wrong about this. In a high performance propeller plane,
at full power you can easily flip over GA planes over by doing a full power runup
in front of them, and it take a hell of a lot more than 30-40 MPH to do that.
Ever stand behind a Cessna 150 or 172 during a full power runup, it is a
like a hurricane, WAY more than 30-40 MPH. Now I am starting to understand
why you are making some bad assumptions about different props and their effects
on performance here. You do not have an understanding of some of the basics.
captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
> It can be accomplished by a large blade or many small blades. In fact the many
small blades are way better at creating a vacuum in front of the propeller than
a fewer blades attempting the same thing. This is not an opinion this is a
fact of aerodynamics ( all else being equal ).
>
>
Many of your " facts " are wrong, and the facts you do know you have used to come
to some very wrong conclusions. You are not the first person to take a fact,
and make very bad assumptions based on that. For the last 80 years or more,
smaller props would have allowed shorter and lighter landing gear on many military
fighters and WWII, shorter gear on many prop transports, better engine
placement on modern low wing turboprops instead of having to mount engines above
the wings, more prop clearance on the ground resulting in less FOD, and much
better engine placement on pusher type airplanes.
Captain Ron, it is really plausible that airplane designers have just overlooked
all of this and never thought about using small multi-bladed props ? This
issue has been very carefully studied, and researched for many years, and the
FACT is that aircraft designers don't use large props just to make planes heaver
and harder to deal with.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246290#246290
--
kugelair.com
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
This argument has gotten way off the subject line.
I don't intend to be a part of it, but I will throw this in to think about.
When it comes to Kolbs, especially the mkIII, a model that has been out
since 1991, there isn't a whole lot that can be done to it to improve on a
proven design. That includes available, reliable, efficient power plants
and props. For what it is worth, I think I have the best of the
combinations available. In my travels, I haven't found another Kolb mkIII
that will out perform Miss P'fer. There may be some out there, but we have
not encountered them yet. That includes the newest model MKIIIx that I had
the privelege of testing last year.
I have done side by side comparison tests for slow flight and also top speed
with other mkIII's. I think I did as well at slow speed as the much lighter
competition, and I also out ran a mkIII powered with a 912uls and an IVO two
blade, heavy duty prop. I haven't raced with other mkIII's with 912uls's
and three blade fast taper Warp Drive blades, so I don't know how I would
perform with them. My mkIII is an 80 mph cruise hog, that carries all the
weight I ask her to. She does quite well as a super STOL aircraft, even
with out the aid of VGs.
This last flight was 60 hours with no maintenance of any kind to aircraft or
engine. She flew in some extreme weather conditions and survived. She got
me home safe and sound.
I might note, most of this argument about props has been voiced by folks
that don't have a whole heck of a lot of experience with Kolb aircraft.
They don't necessarily get into step with all the other aircraft in the
world. They are a special breed, and have there own very special quirks
that are hard for a lot of engineers to understand. I know they do them and
can not tell you why. Guess that is why I like flying my Kolb.
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
Hay Ron,Iam thinking about starting to work on a Suzuki 1.3 non turbo to replace
my Hirth by some time next year.Would like to see any pics as you progress..Thanks
> -----Original Message-----
> From: captainron1@cox.net
> Sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 0:54:30 -0400
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: WRT M3X prop boom measurements.
>
>
> Okay thanks, I guess and also based on what John H. said that the Suzuki
> motor crank is stationed lower on the mounts than the Rotax.
> I would like at one point to have the SPG-2 turned down and have a 5 or 6
> blade prop on it. this will place the center of thrust just about equal
> with the trailing edge of the wings. However for the moment and with the
> budget I got I'll keep it as is.
> A friend of mine was looking at it today for the first time and she said
> "it has such a big motor on it"..... :-) I guess the DOHC 1.3 is kinda
> large looking on the frame.
>
>
> ---- Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> ============
>
> Ron,
>
>
>
> I have a turbocharged Suzuki G1.0. & a 68" inflight electric adjust
> IvoProp. My measurements are: from tip of prop to boom tube, I have
> close to 2 3/4" clearance. Of course, you have a different redrive than
> I do, but it sounds like your prop position is very close to mine.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Welch
>
> MkIII
>
>
>
>> Folks I started the mating of the Suzuki motor to the Mounts. I need
>> some measurements as to prop clearances and measured distance from the
>> Boom the the center of the prop hub. I can't see where some of you
>> reported where you had a 72 inch prop. I see where I can install a 70
>> inch prop on my mount but then clearance will be down to about an inch.
>> These are preliminary measurements for my airframe.
>> Anyway I need to figure out what's what WRT that.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ron @ KFHU
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail goes with you.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
Yeah, 'cause instead of 250 hp, they have 1500 turbo horses [maybe two of
them].
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 5/31/2009 8:03:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
d-m-hague@comcast.net writes:
Yes, but I suspect the multi blades are for space or controllability
reasons, not aerodynamic efficiency.
**************We found the real =98Hotel California=99 and the
=98Seinfeld=99
diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com.
(http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Yo
uve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=eml
cntnew00000007)
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
Hi Brad
We got quite a List with a big library of pictures. If you need info on the Suzuki
you can find it at FlyGeo@yahoogroups.com
One of the moderators will approve you pretty quick. Have fun and post any questions
that you can think of we have some very apt people there about the motor,
and even two fellows that will sell you the whole motor package for the Kolb.
If you got the money that's probably the best route to go.
You could go back and review the libraries, all the posts are there. I think we
have discussed that motor and the different types in great detail. Bob B can
correct me but I think the latest motor that is consensus recommended for the
big Kolbs is the 1.3l 16V SOHC from the 2000 Model Geo / Sprint. The little Kolbs
can probably do fine with the 1. ltr Suzi motor.
I am sure that pictures of my motor mount are already there but the latest batch
has the final configuration with all the bracing that I felt were needed.
I will post my most recent photos today sometime there.
==================================================
================================================
---- Brad Stump <sky-king@inbox.com> wrote:
============
Hay Ron,Iam thinking about starting to work on a Suzuki 1.3 non turbo to replace
my Hirth by some time next year.Would like to see any pics as you progress..Thanks
> -----Original Message-----
> From: captainron1@cox.net
> Sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 0:54:30 -0400
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: WRT M3X prop boom measurements.
>
>
> Okay thanks, I guess and also based on what John H. said that the Suzuki
> motor crank is stationed lower on the mounts than the Rotax.
> I would like at one point to have the SPG-2 turned down and have a 5 or 6
> blade prop on it. this will place the center of thrust just about equal
> with the trailing edge of the wings. However for the moment and with the
> budget I got I'll keep it as is.
> A friend of mine was looking at it today for the first time and she said
> "it has such a big motor on it"..... :-) I guess the DOHC 1.3 is kinda
> large looking on the frame.
>
>
> ---- Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> ============
>
> Ron,
>
>
>
> I have a turbocharged Suzuki G1.0. & a 68" inflight electric adjust
> IvoProp. My measurements are: from tip of prop to boom tube, I have
> close to 2 3/4" clearance. Of course, you have a different redrive than
> I do, but it sounds like your prop position is very close to mine.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Welch
>
> MkIII
>
>
>
>> Folks I started the mating of the Suzuki motor to the Mounts. I need
>> some measurements as to prop clearances and measured distance from the
>> Boom the the center of the prop hub. I can't see where some of you
>> reported where you had a 72 inch prop. I see where I can install a 70
>> inch prop on my mount but then clearance will be down to about an inch.
>> These are preliminary measurements for my airframe.
>> Anyway I need to figure out what's what WRT that.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ron @ KFHU
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail goes with you.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________
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--
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
At 01:10 PM 6/1/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>My intent was to dissuade others from the notion that a prop is a reaction
>motor such as a rocket, i.e. throwing a mass backwards to cause Newton's
>law of equal reaction. :-)
A prop is not a rocket in that the mass originates in a rocket, but the
prop does accelerate aft the air passing through it, and Newton's law of
reaction says that the force exerted in pushing the air back is equal to
the force the air exerts pushing the prop forward. Thrust is equal to the
mass flow times the velocity change, as I said.
I'm not idly speculating... I kinda had to study this stuff when I was
earning my aerospace engineering degree...
>Anyway I am chuckling here thinking that drinking a Heineken after a long
>day and then posting something of a serious nature does not really further
>the cause of science.
OK, I'm done with science/engineering for tonight too... don't care for
Heineken, think I'll go open an Anchor Steam.
-Dana
--
The greatest threat to western civilization are people whose fear of
other people's liberty exceeds the love of their own.
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
At 01:10 PM 6/1/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>My intent was to dissuade others from the notion that a prop is a reaction
>motor such as a rocket, i.e. throwing a mass backwards to cause Newton's
>law of equal reaction. :-)
A prop is not a rocket in that the mass originates in a rocket, but the
prop does accelerate aft the air passing through it, and Newton's law of
reaction says that the force exerted in pushing the air back is equal to
the force the air exerts pushing the prop forward. Thrust is equal to the
mass flow times the velocity change, as I said.
I'm not idly speculating... I kinda had to study this stuff when I was
earning my aerospace engineering degree...
>Anyway I am chuckling here thinking that drinking a Heineken after a long
>day and then posting something of a serious nature does not really further
>the cause of science.
OK, I'm done with science/engineering for tonight too... don't care for
Heineken, think I'll go open an Anchor Steam.
-Dana
--
The greatest threat to western civilization are people whose fear of
other people's liberty exceeds the love of their own.
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
Captain Ron,
It would be a rather expensive test that will surely have poor results. Lots of
prop testing has been done on Kolbs, and lots of other planes by Warp Drive,
Power Fin, And IVO. These guys know a LOT about props, and have done the research.
Whenever I call any of these companies, they are very knowledgeable about
prop/speed/motor combinations and what works, and what does not. If they
could sell more props and make a bunch of money by selling us new multi blade
smaller diameter props that would work better, they would ! If you have doubts
I would suggest you talk to some of these prop experts. I'm just trying to
save you the trouble and expense of an experiment that has a known outcome...
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246395#246395
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
Thought some of you may be interested in multiple blade props offered by
Warp Drive for air boats. Alabama Power Corp uses air boats on our lakes
powered by 350 Chevy engines and 8 blade WD props.
john h
mkIII - Only have 3 blades. ;-)
AIRBOAT AND HOVERCRAFT PROPELLER PRICE SCHEDULE
NOTE: These prices are for Airboat and Hovercraft applications with
direct-drive engines exceeding 80 hp and for engines exceeding 120 hp with a
PSRU installed. The price includes the Nickel Leading Edges which are
mandatory and a Protractor to measure and set blade pitch.
3 Blade Up to 72" $1135
4 Blade Up to 72" $1530
5 Blade Up to 72" $1840
5 Blade Up to 80" $1890
6 Blade Up to 72" $2120
6 Blade Up to 80" $2175
6 Blade Up to 90" $2695
7 Blade Up to 80" $2475
8 Blade Up to 72" $2725
8 Blade Up to 80" $2785
10 Blade Up to 80" $3315
All Airboat and Hovercraft Replacement Blades are $300.00 per blade
including the Nickel Edges. (Provide prop serial number)
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Subject: | Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. |
Long winded post about props. If you are not interest hit delete.
I have seen the charts that show small diameter props turning fast rpm's
reach their maximum efficiencies at high speeds. AND large diameter
props reach their maximum efficiencies at slow speeds.
SO when building a plane the first thing you want to do is to determine
what the plane is to be designed to do. That will determine the speed
range of the design, the speed of the design will determine the prop
diameter and pitch.
That said, the most efficient prop is a "1" blade prop... you read it right
"one" blade. The problem with a one blade prop is keeping things in
balance. And yes it has been experimented with, you have to have a counter
balance on the other side, and by playing with the angle of a pivot you can
make it more or less a constant speed prop. When it is pulling hard it will
cone forward and if mounted at the correct pivot angle it will reduce the
pitch,,, when the plane is up to speed the centrifugal force causes it to
run in a flatter coneing angle, increasing the pitch. Why do I mention the
one blade prop as the most efficient???? because every prop or wing going
through the air has two types of drag acting on it.
Drag: drag may de subdivided into induced drag and parasite drag. Induced
drag is simply the drag created in the process of developing lift / thrust.
In addition to the induced drag caused by the development of lift, there is
parasite drag due to skin friction and form. This term is used because
parasite drag is not directly associated with the development of lift.
Parasite drag is present ant time the wing or prop is moving through the
air, even in a zero lift condition.
The more blades the more parasite drag. The more parasite drag, the more HP
will be used up that is not creating lift / thrust, the more hp not
producing thrust the less efficient the prop / wing.
Now props work best when set to the best pitch angle at cruise, as to be
able to use up the available HP. Fast aircraft have a high pitch angle.
And if set as a constant pitch, they have very poor takeoff performance.
That is why they put on a variable pitch prop on fast aircraft. So they can
maximize the efficiency at both slow and fast speeds. At the speed that
the kolb line of aircraft fly,, the variable pitch seems unnecessary.
Because we get good take off performance and flight with one pitch. Look at
the production aircraft that fly in the speeds that the kolbs fly. They
have very simple fixed pitch props. Generally a two blade prop. Now as
the HP increases and you start to have prop ground clearance problems, and
you cant pitch the prop to use up the available HP in cruise, by setting the
pitch for maximum efficiency, then you add an additional blade.
Now on a pusher there is a different reason to add the third blade sooner
than you would on a tractor, that is because of the noise developed by
having a prop with greater pitch go into and out of the disturbed airflow.
The smaller pitch on a three blade seem to make less noise. But we trade
the quieter operation for less efficiency caused by increased parasite
drag.
On most aircraft the prop diameter is limited by ground clearance. Has
anyone ever seen a Cessna 150, or a j5 cub with a 45 inch 6 blade prop? If
it were more efficient it would be the norm.
Boyd Young
Kolb MkIII C 580+ hours and counting
Brigham City Utah.
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Subject: | Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Kolb-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
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This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
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************************************************************
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The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
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You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
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http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kolb-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kolb-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
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main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kolb-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Kolb-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Kolb-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kolb
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
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I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
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Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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|
Subject: | Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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