---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/01/09: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:22 AM - Re: Video of John H arriving at Rock House (Tony Oldman) 2. 04:49 AM - Re: Fw: The kit has arrived! (loseyf@comcast.net) 3. 05:23 AM - Re: Fw: The kit has arrived! (Michael Sharp) 4. 06:49 AM - Link to MV/Rock House Pictures (John Bickham) 5. 06:49 AM - Re: Video of John H arriving at Rock House (lucien) 6. 06:55 AM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (JetPilot) 7. 07:30 AM - Re: Monument Valley (jimhefner) 8. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Mike Welch) 9. 08:18 AM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (lucien) 10. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Ron @ KFHU) 11. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (John Hauck) 12. 11:57 AM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Brad Stump) 13. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (HShack@aol.com) 14. 01:22 PM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Ron @ KFHU) 15. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Dana Hague) 16. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Dana Hague) 17. 05:42 PM - Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (JetPilot) 18. 07:01 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (John Hauck) 19. 08:31 PM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (b young) 20. 11:01 PM - Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 21. 11:06 PM - Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:12 AM PST US From: "Tony Oldman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Video of John H arriving at Rock House Shows up on mine the same. Always has done.I still open and have a look, John leads such a interesting life with many experiences that I have always thought the risk worth taking .Less risky than his landing posted in the last vidio. Keep it up, Tony Downunder MK111c 503 ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Cottrell To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:18 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Video of John H arriving at Rock House For some reason my computer flags John's posts on that computer as phishing, it also marked my reply to his post as the same phishing as the original even though I "unblocked" it. Did they show up that was on other computers or is it just mine? Larry ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: The kit has arrived! From: loseyf@comcast.net VGhhbmtzIFJpY2shICBJIGhhdmUgYSBNaWNyb3NvZnQgcHJvamVjdCB0aW1ldGFibGUgd2l0aCBt aWxlc3RvbmVzLi4uSSBhbSB1c3VhbGx5IGdvb2QgYXQgY29tcGxldGlvbiBhcyBsb25nIGFzIEkg aGF2ZSBtaWxlc3RvbmVzIHNldC4gIEkgYW0gYXBwcmVjaWF0aXZlIG9mIHRoZSBvZmZlciBmb3Ig cXVlc3Rpb25zIGFuZCBhbnN3ZXJzIGFuZCB3aWxsIGFzayBpZiBJIGFtIHVuc3VyZS4NCg0KVGhh bmtzIGFnYWluLg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgQmxhY2tCZXJyeQ0KDQot LS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogIlJpY2hhcmQgJiBNYXJ0aGEgTmVpbHNl biIgPE5laWxzZW5STUBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldD4NCg0KRGF0ZTogU3VuLCAzMSBNYXkgMjAwOSAyMTo1 ODozMiANClRvOiA8a29sYi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogS29sYi1M aXN0OiBGdzogVGhlIGtpdCBoYXMgYXJyaXZlZCENCg0KDQpUaGlzIGlzIGEgbXVsdGktcGFydCBt ZXNzYWdlIGluIE1JTUUgZm9ybWF0Lg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:20 AM PST US From: Michael Sharp Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: The kit has arrived! Fran!!=C2- A person after my own heart!!!=C2- =0A=0AMy plan was/is in P 3.... I have so much negative float that it's scary!!!!=0A=0AUs nerds gota stick together!!!!=0A=0A=0AMike=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________________ ___=0AFrom: "loseyf@comcast.net" =0ATo: kolb-list@matro nics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 1, 2009 6:46:18 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: The kit has arrived!=0A=0A=EF=BB Thanks Rick! I have a Microso ft project timetable with milestones...I am usually good at completion as l ong as I have milestones set. I am appreciative of the offer for questions and answers and will ask if I am unsure.=0A=0AThanks again. =0ASent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Ri chard & Martha Neilsen" =0ADate: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:58:32 -0400=0ATo: =0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: The kit has arrived!=0A =0AFran=0A=C2-=0ACongratulations.=0A=C2-=0AI set up a work schedule/goa l of one hour a day. In = the beginning it was much more than that b ut as time went by I would work a = bunch of hours on week ends and try to get at least a hour a day during the week = after work. After three years it worked out to be about one hour per day. I = figured about a extra year to put the the VW on the plane so really only two = y ears to build the plane. Now with most of the details worked out the V W should = only take a extra month or so. My point is set a realisti c goal and don't get = burned out with to much work a one time. Don' t make=C2-a bunch of=C2-changes to = the plane, this can really expand the time to build.=C2-Also watch out for = AIDS (aviation i nduced divorce syndrome).=C2-=0A=C2-=0AHave fun, keep us up to date on your progress, and = ask questions. We are here to help.=0A=C2-=0A I haven't heard from you guys that are working on VW = powered Kolbs for a long time. Are you still working on them?????? At home = coming th is year I want to see at least one more VW flying.=0A=C2-=0ADo not a rchive=0A=C2-=0ARick Neilsen=0ARedrive VW powered MKIIIC=0A=C2-=0A=C2 -=0A----- Original Message ----- From: loseyf@comcast.net =0ATo: kol b-list@matronics.com ==0ASent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 7:57 = PM=0ASubject : Kolb-List: Fw: The kit = has arrived!=0AResending...Matronics like s this address.=0A=0ASent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=0A___________ _____________________=0AFrom: =0ADate: Sun, 31 May 2009 = 19:48:46 - 0400=0ATo: < loseyf@comcast.net>=0ASubje= ct: Fw: The kit has arrive d!=0A=0A=0AFran Losey Director of = Technical Services=0A___________ _____________________=0AFrom: Losey, Fran [ENP/ALBER] ==0ATo: kolb-l ist@matronics.com = < kolb-list@matronics.com> =0ACc: Travis Brown < travis@tnkolbaircraft.com> ==0ASent: Sun May 31 19:30:14 2009=0ASubj ect: The kit has arrived! ==0A=0AJust posting a note to say I have now st arted the = process..of building.=0A=C2-=0AMy MK3X kit a rrived yesterday thanks to the fine = folks at Kolb, and Brian and H elen who delivered.=C2- I truly enjoyed their = Company, and can s ay that good folks make all the difference in the world when = making a decision of this type.=0A=C2-=0AI have a grin bigger than Bob the E nzyte guy!=0A=C2-=0ASincerely,=0A=C2-=0AFran = Losey N62FL (reserved)=C2-=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~= =EF=B F=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=03g(=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDM=EF= =BDGq=EF=BDz=EF =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =C2 =C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3 =93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=AA=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8 ^*=B0[.+-f=C2=A2=9DZ+=C2=BAt=C2=B1=C3=ABax=C3=86=C2=AD=C2=AE =B0=C3=A2r=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=91^j=C3=9B=C2=ABz=C3=83Z=C2=BE(=C2=B6=C5 -=C3=AD=C2=A1=C2=BA=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=C2=B6=C2j|=B9=C5-=C3=8Bn =C2=B6)b=C2=B6'=C2=AC=C2=B2=C3=A7!j=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3-'=C3=BD+ =BA=C2=B1=C3=8A=C3=A2=C2=C3=98=C2=A8=C5=93+r=C2=AFy'=C5=A1=C2=AD=C3=88C =C2=A3 =C3=A5=C2=A1=C2=A7{ =C2=AC=EF=BD=C2=AE=C5=92,x(Z=C2=B4P ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:08 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Link to MV/Rock House Pictures From: "John Bickham" If you are interested..... Here is the link to my pictures from the trip to MV and then on to the Rock House. http://kolbadventures.shutterfly.com/ I posted them on Shutterfly. I think you can save or print whatever you like that way, if you so desire. John H, let me know if you need me to send the pictures of the mine directly to Tony. I have a few videos that I want to download to YouTube when I get a chance. Still catching up on chores. I'll let you know when I get to that. http://kolbadventures.blogspot.com/ -------- Thanks too much, John Bickham Mark III-C w/ 912UL St. Francisville, LA I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246288#246288 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:07 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Video of John H arriving at Rock House From: "lucien" Hmm... Looks like just a typical spring/summer day where I live. Wind won't go below 15G25 until Sept here ;). Former partner in my titan was practicing landings in his RV6-A yesterday with his instructor while I was watching on the ground. Don't think I've ever seen a plane that big and heavy yaw and pitch all by itself that much on short final ever. I put my FSII down in TX in some shifty wind not quite that strong once. Sure was glad I had that big 68" warp drive honker on it as full throttle was needed in some of the dips. Drove it onto the runway in a full wheel landing not much below cruise due to a gust right at the end. Learned a while back that going to the stops on the controls just to keep the plane doing what you want is actually not safe and can bend stuff pretty easily. I was lucky on that landing as the stops were being put to full use on all controls...... Still miss my FSII a bunch tho. May end up building another one in a few years if Kolb still makes the kit.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246287#246287 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. From: "JetPilot" captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > > > On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw back or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300 kt it is obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is something else then. > > - You could not be more wrong about this. In a high performance propeller plane, at full power you can easily flip over GA planes over by doing a full power runup in front of them, and it take a hell of a lot more than 30-40 MPH to do that. Ever stand behind a Cessna 150 or 172 during a full power runup, it is a like a hurricane, WAY more than 30-40 MPH. Now I am starting to understand why you are making some bad assumptions about different props and their effects on performance here. You do not have an understanding of some of the basics. captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > > > It can be accomplished by a large blade or many small blades. In fact the many small blades are way better at creating a vacuum in front of the propeller than a fewer blades attempting the same thing. This is not an opinion this is a fact of aerodynamics ( all else being equal ). > > Many of your " facts " are wrong, and the facts you do know you have used to come to some very wrong conclusions. You are not the first person to take a fact, and make very bad assumptions based on that. For the last 80 years or more, smaller props would have allowed shorter and lighter landing gear on many military fighters and WWII, shorter gear on many prop transports, better engine placement on modern low wing turboprops instead of having to mount engines above the wings, more prop clearance on the ground resulting in less FOD, and much better engine placement on pusher type airplanes. Captain Ron, it is really plausible that airplane designers have just overlooked all of this and never thought about using small multi-bladed props ? This issue has been very carefully studied, and researched for many years, and the FACT is that aircraft designers don't use large props just to make planes heaver and harder to deal with. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246290#246290 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:56 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Monument Valley From: "jimhefner" Gary, I enjoyed meeting you at MV and thoroughly enjoyed the ride in your beautiful Jabiru powered MK-III. Thanks much for the invite! Hope to see you there again sometime. I hope the rest of your trip was enjoyable for both of you. I'm glad you made it home safely. -------- Jim Hefner Tucson, AZ Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246297#246297 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:50 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Mike B. Eloquently put. That's why I decided to not participate in this debate. When someone says "On the ground at full power the max velocity of the ai r that you throw back or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most"=2C then you have to realize your opposition in the argument. To belabor the point is futile=2C really. I recall doing a full power runup with an ultralight I had one. 440 Kawa saki 40 HP=2C seems like all hell was breaking loose. Yeah=2C I know=2C it was only 40 horses=2C but the wind that sucker blew back moved trees 100 f eet away. Maybe it got to 42 mph. Mike Welch MkIII Geo Turbo=2C blows back air 24 mph > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. > From: orcabonita@hotmail.com > Date: Mon=2C 1 Jun 2009 06:55:00 -0700 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > > > captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > > > > > > On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw back or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300 kt it is obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is something else then. > > > > - > > > You could not be more wrong about this. In a high performance propeller p lane=2C at full power you can easily flip over GA planes over by doing a fu ll power runup in front of them=2C and it take a hell of a lot more than 30 -40 MPH to do that. Ever stand behind a Cessna 150 or 172 during a full pow er runup=2C it is a like a hurricane=2C WAY more than 30-40 MPH. Now I am s tarting to understand why you are making some bad assumptions about differe nt props and their effects on performance here. You do not have an understa nding of some of the basics. > > > captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > > > > > > It can be accomplished by a large blade or many small blades. In fact t he many small blades are way better at creating a vacuum in front of the pr opeller than a fewer blades attempting the same thing. This is not an opini on this is a fact of aerodynamics ( all else being equal ). > > > > > > > Many of your " facts " are wrong=2C and the facts you do know you have us ed to come to some very wrong conclusions. You are not the first person to take a fact=2C and make very bad assumptions based on that. For the last 80 years or more=2C smaller props would have allowed shorter and lighter land ing gear on many military fighters and WWII=2C shorter gear on many prop tr ansports=2C better engine placement on modern low wing turboprops instead o f having to mount engines above the wings=2C more prop clearance on the gro und resulting in less FOD=2C and much better engine placement on pusher typ e airplanes. > > Captain Ron=2C it is really plausible that airplane designers have just o verlooked all of this and never thought about using small multi-bladed prop s ? This issue has been very carefully studied=2C and researched for many y ears=2C and the FACT is that aircraft designers don't use large props just to make planes heaver and harder to deal with. > > Mike > > -------- > "=3BNO FEAR"=3B - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as y ou could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra=2C 912-S > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246290#246290 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail=AE goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutor ial_Mobile1_052009 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:09 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. From: "lucien" mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote: > > > On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw back or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300 kt it is obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is something else then. > > > Er, maybe if the AOA of the prop blades is low enough, yeah, you could get a wind of only 30-40 mph.......... The way I learnt it, a prop is basically just a rotating wing. It's a little different because the airflow over the different sections of the blade varies due to it rotating, but the same principles concerning efficiency and mechanical limits applies to it. I.e. high-aspect ratio wing sections tend to be more efficient (i.e. have high L/D ratios) but have lower mechanical limits due to their structure. Low aspect-ration wing sections are less efficient (low L/D ratios) but have higher mechanical limits due to structure as well. This is why, for example, the warp drive prop is so efficient, probably the most efficient prop you can buy for our light a/c applications. It's got a high-aspect ratio blade platform with a very thin cross section. Ideal for high L/D and thus very efficient at producing rotating power into thrust. The main compromise is blade area to maintain the high AR and keep the diameter within mechanical restrictions. Blades stall at static and low speed regimes - big whoop, easily compensated for by correct power usage on the takeoff roll. Short, stubby props, OTOH, are less efficient for the same reasons (low aspect ratio) but are used on high-power applications because they can be built strong as an ox...... That's why fighters have those short low-efficiency wings on them. Less efficient but that is overcome simply by applying enough power into the equation ;). LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246302#246302 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:02 AM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. It was a poor choice of words and no sooner I sent it I thought it probably will cause a bit of a prop blast in my direction. My intent was to dissuade others from the notion that a prop is a reaction motor such as a rocket, i.e. throwing a mass backwards to cause Newton's law of equal reaction. :-) I guess we can argue about my less than brilliant example, but that will not change any facts about the efficiency of a multi blade prop as compared to a two blade prop of equal volume of displacement. Anyway I am chuckling here thinking that drinking a Heineken after a long day and then posting something of a serious nature does not really further the cause of science. ---- JetPilot wrote: ============ captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > > > On the ground at full power the max velocity of the air that you throw back or move back is maybe 30-40 mph at most. If you are moving at say 300 kt it is obviously impossible that 30-40 mph is pushing you at 300kt. It is something else then. > > - You could not be more wrong about this. In a high performance propeller plane, at full power you can easily flip over GA planes over by doing a full power runup in front of them, and it take a hell of a lot more than 30-40 MPH to do that. Ever stand behind a Cessna 150 or 172 during a full power runup, it is a like a hurricane, WAY more than 30-40 MPH. Now I am starting to understand why you are making some bad assumptions about different props and their effects on performance here. You do not have an understanding of some of the basics. captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > > > It can be accomplished by a large blade or many small blades. In fact the many small blades are way better at creating a vacuum in front of the propeller than a fewer blades attempting the same thing. This is not an opinion this is a fact of aerodynamics ( all else being equal ). > > Many of your " facts " are wrong, and the facts you do know you have used to come to some very wrong conclusions. You are not the first person to take a fact, and make very bad assumptions based on that. For the last 80 years or more, smaller props would have allowed shorter and lighter landing gear on many military fighters and WWII, shorter gear on many prop transports, better engine placement on modern low wing turboprops instead of having to mount engines above the wings, more prop clearance on the ground resulting in less FOD, and much better engine placement on pusher type airplanes. Captain Ron, it is really plausible that airplane designers have just overlooked all of this and never thought about using small multi-bladed props ? This issue has been very carefully studied, and researched for many years, and the FACT is that aircraft designers don't use large props just to make planes heaver and harder to deal with. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246290#246290 -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:25 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. This argument has gotten way off the subject line. I don't intend to be a part of it, but I will throw this in to think about. When it comes to Kolbs, especially the mkIII, a model that has been out since 1991, there isn't a whole lot that can be done to it to improve on a proven design. That includes available, reliable, efficient power plants and props. For what it is worth, I think I have the best of the combinations available. In my travels, I haven't found another Kolb mkIII that will out perform Miss P'fer. There may be some out there, but we have not encountered them yet. That includes the newest model MKIIIx that I had the privelege of testing last year. I have done side by side comparison tests for slow flight and also top speed with other mkIII's. I think I did as well at slow speed as the much lighter competition, and I also out ran a mkIII powered with a 912uls and an IVO two blade, heavy duty prop. I haven't raced with other mkIII's with 912uls's and three blade fast taper Warp Drive blades, so I don't know how I would perform with them. My mkIII is an 80 mph cruise hog, that carries all the weight I ask her to. She does quite well as a super STOL aircraft, even with out the aid of VGs. This last flight was 60 hours with no maintenance of any kind to aircraft or engine. She flew in some extreme weather conditions and survived. She got me home safe and sound. I might note, most of this argument about props has been voiced by folks that don't have a whole heck of a lot of experience with Kolb aircraft. They don't necessarily get into step with all the other aircraft in the world. They are a special breed, and have there own very special quirks that are hard for a lot of engineers to understand. I know they do them and can not tell you why. Guess that is why I like flying my Kolb. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:59 AM PST US From: Brad Stump Subject: RE: Kolb-List: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Hay Ron,Iam thinking about starting to work on a Suzuki 1.3 non turbo to replace my Hirth by some time next year.Would like to see any pics as you progress..Thanks > -----Original Message----- > From: captainron1@cox.net > Sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 0:54:30 -0400 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. > > > Okay thanks, I guess and also based on what John H. said that the Suzuki > motor crank is stationed lower on the mounts than the Rotax. > I would like at one point to have the SPG-2 turned down and have a 5 or 6 > blade prop on it. this will place the center of thrust just about equal > with the trailing edge of the wings. However for the moment and with the > budget I got I'll keep it as is. > A friend of mine was looking at it today for the first time and she said > "it has such a big motor on it"..... :-) I guess the DOHC 1.3 is kinda > large looking on the frame. > > > ---- Mike Welch wrote: > > ============ > > Ron, > > > > I have a turbocharged Suzuki G1.0. & a 68" inflight electric adjust > IvoProp. My measurements are: from tip of prop to boom tube, I have > close to 2 3/4" clearance. Of course, you have a different redrive than > I do, but it sounds like your prop position is very close to mine. > > > > > > Mike Welch > > MkIII > > > >> Folks I started the mating of the Suzuki motor to the Mounts. I need >> some measurements as to prop clearances and measured distance from the >> Boom the the center of the prop hub. I can't see where some of you >> reported where you had a 72 inch prop. I see where I can install a 70 >> inch prop on my mount but then clearance will be down to about an inch. >> These are preliminary measurements for my airframe. >> Anyway I need to figure out what's what WRT that. >> >> Thanks >> Ron @ KFHU > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail goes with you. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 > -- > kugelair.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click. Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out! ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:23 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Yeah, 'cause instead of 250 hp, they have 1500 turbo horses [maybe two of them]. Howard Shackleford FS II SC In a message dated 5/31/2009 8:03:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, d-m-hague@comcast.net writes: Yes, but I suspect the multi blades are for space or controllability reasons, not aerodynamic efficiency. **************We found the real =98Hotel California=99 and the =98Seinfeld=99 diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. (http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Yo uve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=eml cntnew00000007) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:00 PM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Hi Brad We got quite a List with a big library of pictures. If you need info on the Suzuki you can find it at FlyGeo@yahoogroups.com One of the moderators will approve you pretty quick. Have fun and post any questions that you can think of we have some very apt people there about the motor, and even two fellows that will sell you the whole motor package for the Kolb. If you got the money that's probably the best route to go. You could go back and review the libraries, all the posts are there. I think we have discussed that motor and the different types in great detail. Bob B can correct me but I think the latest motor that is consensus recommended for the big Kolbs is the 1.3l 16V SOHC from the 2000 Model Geo / Sprint. The little Kolbs can probably do fine with the 1. ltr Suzi motor. I am sure that pictures of my motor mount are already there but the latest batch has the final configuration with all the bracing that I felt were needed. I will post my most recent photos today sometime there. ================================================== ================================================ ---- Brad Stump wrote: ============ Hay Ron,Iam thinking about starting to work on a Suzuki 1.3 non turbo to replace my Hirth by some time next year.Would like to see any pics as you progress..Thanks > -----Original Message----- > From: captainron1@cox.net > Sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 0:54:30 -0400 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. > > > Okay thanks, I guess and also based on what John H. said that the Suzuki > motor crank is stationed lower on the mounts than the Rotax. > I would like at one point to have the SPG-2 turned down and have a 5 or 6 > blade prop on it. this will place the center of thrust just about equal > with the trailing edge of the wings. However for the moment and with the > budget I got I'll keep it as is. > A friend of mine was looking at it today for the first time and she said > "it has such a big motor on it"..... :-) I guess the DOHC 1.3 is kinda > large looking on the frame. > > > ---- Mike Welch wrote: > > ============ > > Ron, > > > > I have a turbocharged Suzuki G1.0. & a 68" inflight electric adjust > IvoProp. My measurements are: from tip of prop to boom tube, I have > close to 2 3/4" clearance. Of course, you have a different redrive than > I do, but it sounds like your prop position is very close to mine. > > > > > > Mike Welch > > MkIII > > > >> Folks I started the mating of the Suzuki motor to the Mounts. I need >> some measurements as to prop clearances and measured distance from the >> Boom the the center of the prop hub. I can't see where some of you >> reported where you had a 72 inch prop. I see where I can install a 70 >> inch prop on my mount but then clearance will be down to about an inch. >> These are preliminary measurements for my airframe. >> Anyway I need to figure out what's what WRT that. >> >> Thanks >> Ron @ KFHU > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail goes with you. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 > -- > kugelair.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click. Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out! -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:39 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. At 01:10 PM 6/1/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: >My intent was to dissuade others from the notion that a prop is a reaction >motor such as a rocket, i.e. throwing a mass backwards to cause Newton's >law of equal reaction. :-) A prop is not a rocket in that the mass originates in a rocket, but the prop does accelerate aft the air passing through it, and Newton's law of reaction says that the force exerted in pushing the air back is equal to the force the air exerts pushing the prop forward. Thrust is equal to the mass flow times the velocity change, as I said. I'm not idly speculating... I kinda had to study this stuff when I was earning my aerospace engineering degree... >Anyway I am chuckling here thinking that drinking a Heineken after a long >day and then posting something of a serious nature does not really further >the cause of science. OK, I'm done with science/engineering for tonight too... don't care for Heineken, think I'll go open an Anchor Steam. -Dana -- The greatest threat to western civilization are people whose fear of other people's liberty exceeds the love of their own. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:39 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. At 01:10 PM 6/1/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: >My intent was to dissuade others from the notion that a prop is a reaction >motor such as a rocket, i.e. throwing a mass backwards to cause Newton's >law of equal reaction. :-) A prop is not a rocket in that the mass originates in a rocket, but the prop does accelerate aft the air passing through it, and Newton's law of reaction says that the force exerted in pushing the air back is equal to the force the air exerts pushing the prop forward. Thrust is equal to the mass flow times the velocity change, as I said. I'm not idly speculating... I kinda had to study this stuff when I was earning my aerospace engineering degree... >Anyway I am chuckling here thinking that drinking a Heineken after a long >day and then posting something of a serious nature does not really further >the cause of science. OK, I'm done with science/engineering for tonight too... don't care for Heineken, think I'll go open an Anchor Steam. -Dana -- The greatest threat to western civilization are people whose fear of other people's liberty exceeds the love of their own. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. From: "JetPilot" Captain Ron, It would be a rather expensive test that will surely have poor results. Lots of prop testing has been done on Kolbs, and lots of other planes by Warp Drive, Power Fin, And IVO. These guys know a LOT about props, and have done the research. Whenever I call any of these companies, they are very knowledgeable about prop/speed/motor combinations and what works, and what does not. If they could sell more props and make a bunch of money by selling us new multi blade smaller diameter props that would work better, they would ! If you have doubts I would suggest you talk to some of these prop experts. I'm just trying to save you the trouble and expense of an experiment that has a known outcome... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246395#246395 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:48 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Thought some of you may be interested in multiple blade props offered by Warp Drive for air boats. Alabama Power Corp uses air boats on our lakes powered by 350 Chevy engines and 8 blade WD props. john h mkIII - Only have 3 blades. ;-) AIRBOAT AND HOVERCRAFT PROPELLER PRICE SCHEDULE NOTE: These prices are for Airboat and Hovercraft applications with direct-drive engines exceeding 80 hp and for engines exceeding 120 hp with a PSRU installed. The price includes the Nickel Leading Edges which are mandatory and a Protractor to measure and set blade pitch. 3 Blade Up to 72" $1135 4 Blade Up to 72" $1530 5 Blade Up to 72" $1840 5 Blade Up to 80" $1890 6 Blade Up to 72" $2120 6 Blade Up to 80" $2175 6 Blade Up to 90" $2695 7 Blade Up to 80" $2475 8 Blade Up to 72" $2725 8 Blade Up to 80" $2785 10 Blade Up to 80" $3315 All Airboat and Hovercraft Replacement Blades are $300.00 per blade including the Nickel Edges. (Provide prop serial number) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:08 PM PST US From: "b young" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Long winded post about props. If you are not interest hit delete. I have seen the charts that show small diameter props turning fast rpm's reach their maximum efficiencies at high speeds. AND large diameter props reach their maximum efficiencies at slow speeds. SO when building a plane the first thing you want to do is to determine what the plane is to be designed to do. That will determine the speed range of the design, the speed of the design will determine the prop diameter and pitch. That said, the most efficient prop is a "1" blade prop... you read it right "one" blade. The problem with a one blade prop is keeping things in balance. And yes it has been experimented with, you have to have a counter balance on the other side, and by playing with the angle of a pivot you can make it more or less a constant speed prop. When it is pulling hard it will cone forward and if mounted at the correct pivot angle it will reduce the pitch,,, when the plane is up to speed the centrifugal force causes it to run in a flatter coneing angle, increasing the pitch. Why do I mention the one blade prop as the most efficient???? because every prop or wing going through the air has two types of drag acting on it. Drag: drag may de subdivided into induced drag and parasite drag. Induced drag is simply the drag created in the process of developing lift / thrust. In addition to the induced drag caused by the development of lift, there is parasite drag due to skin friction and form. This term is used because parasite drag is not directly associated with the development of lift. Parasite drag is present ant time the wing or prop is moving through the air, even in a zero lift condition. The more blades the more parasite drag. The more parasite drag, the more HP will be used up that is not creating lift / thrust, the more hp not producing thrust the less efficient the prop / wing. Now props work best when set to the best pitch angle at cruise, as to be able to use up the available HP. Fast aircraft have a high pitch angle. And if set as a constant pitch, they have very poor takeoff performance. That is why they put on a variable pitch prop on fast aircraft. So they can maximize the efficiency at both slow and fast speeds. At the speed that the kolb line of aircraft fly,, the variable pitch seems unnecessary. Because we get good take off performance and flight with one pitch. Look at the production aircraft that fly in the speeds that the kolbs fly. They have very simple fixed pitch props. Generally a two blade prop. Now as the HP increases and you start to have prop ground clearance problems, and you cant pitch the prop to use up the available HP in cruise, by setting the pitch for maximum efficiency, then you add an additional blade. Now on a pusher there is a different reason to add the third blade sooner than you would on a tractor, that is because of the noise developed by having a prop with greater pitch go into and out of the disturbed airflow. The smaller pitch on a three blade seem to make less noise. But we trade the quieter operation for less efficiency caused by increased parasite drag. On most aircraft the prop diameter is limited by ground clearance. Has anyone ever seen a Cessna 150, or a j5 cub with a 45 inch 6 blade prop? If it were more efficient it would be the norm. Boyd Young Kolb MkIII C 580+ hours and counting Brigham City Utah. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:08 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Kolb-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Kolb-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Kolb-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Kolb-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. 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Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kolb-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kolb-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:15 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kolb-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kolb-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.