---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/05/09: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:13 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (Brad Stump) 2. 04:13 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (Brad Stump) 3. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (Blumax008@aol.com) 4. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (Blumax008@aol.com) 5. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (John Hauck) 6. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. (b young) 7. 02:03 PM - Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (lucien) 8. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (John Hauck) 9. 03:40 PM - Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (lucien) 10. 06:46 PM - Re: blog? (JetPilot) 11. 11:26 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters (Tony Oldman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:19 AM PST US From: Brad Stump Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Thanks for the info,my main concern is that to make 65-70 mph in cruse Iam wot,6500 rpm and 4.5 gph.I want to increase my flight time,so need to get the fuel burn down into the 3gph range. > -----Original Message----- > From: lstavenhagen@hotmail.com > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:18:48 -0700 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. > > > > John Hauck wrote: >> >> >> A 503 can operate continuously at 6500 rpm. >> > > > Don't mean to be contrary, but no it cannot. The chances of failure go > WAY up if it's run at 6500 rpm all the time. Sometimes they make the > specified 300 hour TBO run this hard, but failures are far more frequent > (siezures and con rod failures are the most usual ones). > > >> >> Optimum performance is 75% power, 5800 rpm. >> >> TBO is established by the manufacturer who does not specify a particular >> rpm >> other than 6500 max continuous. >> >> Where do you get your info reference extended TBO if you operate "in the >> region of 5400 or thereabouts"? >> > > > Decades of field experience in a variety of planes by a very wide variety > of pilots. I have about a decade under/in front of the 503 myself. > > What we know from that is that when run in the region of 5200 to 5500 > continuous, the 503 generally goes for about 450 to 500 hours (the > original motor on my FS II had about 450 hours or so on it when I > replaced it, it was still running fine at the time). The 447 commonly > goes even longer than that. The 582 is the only weak one and that's in > the area of the crankshaft. But even it commonly still has good > compressions after over 400 hours of use > > 503's run at 6500 continuous may hit the factory 300 hour TBO but the > failure rate is somewhat higher. drop 1000rpm off that cruise figure and > 300 hours is cake. > > >> >> I don't pay much attention to TBO on two or four stroke engines >> established >> by manufacturers. There is no guarantee the engines will go that long. >> Most will go well beyond manufacturers "suggested" TBO before >> performance >> degradation or failure. >> >> john h >> mkIII > > > I tend to go with field experience myself, especially when there's a lot > of data like there is with the 503. > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246832#246832 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:25 AM PST US From: Brad Stump Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters EGT and CHT are all in the green.The CHT has increased some due to the warmer weather of summer but still in the green.CHT 180F front cyl. 200F back cyl. EGT 870F front, 1100F back. > -----Original Message----- > From: lstavenhagen@hotmail.com > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:38:42 -0700 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters > > > > John Hauck wrote: >> If the engine is propped correctly, 5800 rpm in cruise is 75% power. >> >> Don't believe the engines are intended to be operated without a prop. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> > > > Ah, thanks for starting a new thead on this. > > So if I may ask again, how many hours do you have on the 503 at 6500 > continuous rpm? How many motors did you run to TBO at that setting? How > many did you run past TBO? > I'd also be interested in your operating parameters - CHT and EGT > readings in particular. > > Thanks, > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246878#246878 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:40 AM PST US From: Blumax008@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters In a message dated 6/4/2009 8:39:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lstavenhagen@hotmail.com writes: So if I may ask again, how many hours do you have on the 503 at 6500 continuous rpm? How many motors did you run to TBO at that setting? How many did you run past TBO? This is me again. Over 1,600 hours on my 12 year old 503, with now 4 top overhauls. Just did one. Checked the crank...no problems, no strange noise s. Probably 50% of those hours are WIDE OPEN towing hang gliders. IF IT AIN'T BROKE...DON'T FIX IT. **************Mortgage rates dropped. Record lows. $200,000 for $1,029/mo Fixed. LendingTree=AE =http:%2F%2Fwww.lendingtree.com%2Fborrower%2Falliance%2Ffrom.a sp%3Fwhereto%3Dpromopagev3%26promo%3D00279%26loan%5Ftype%3D2%26source%3D28 89 570%26esourceid%3D2889570%26800num%3D1%2D800%2D289%2D3915%26AdType%3D2) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:55 AM PST US From: Blumax008@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters In a message dated 6/5/2009 12:08:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lstavenhagen@hotmail.com writes: I believe two and four stroke engines today need to be run, not babied. I concur 100%. They love running wide open...and run (or should run) coole r wide open. I'm talking 503 with Pennzoil. Bill Catalina Florida **************Mortgage rates dropped. Record lows. $200,000 for $1,029/mo Fixed. LendingTree=AE =http:%2F%2Fwww.lendingtree.com%2Fborrower%2Falliance%2Ffrom.a sp%3Fwhereto%3Dpromopagev3%26promo%3D00279%26loan%5Ftype%3D2%26source%3D28 89 570%26esourceid%3D2889570%26800num%3D1%2D800%2D289%2D3915%26AdType%3D2) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:00 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters > Ok, was just wondering. After 10 years and lost-count-of hours hanging under the 503, I just found 6500 rpm continuous an extremely unusual recommendation. not one that jives with my and many others experiences with this engine. > > It's a good climbout RPM that will have no ill effects, but not on a > continuous basis.... > > The 2 strokes stay together just fine over the long haul, but that means > running at the 5400 watering hole rpm. 5800 the 447 and 503 can usually > take ok, tho the engine would probably be more reliable over time about > 400 rpm below that for cruise. Even more important for the 582. > WOT all the time and no I'm not surprised you had some trouble with them. LUCIEN The Op Man indicates take off speed 447/503 - 6800 rpm max 5 min. Cruise speed - 6500 rpm. 582 - 6400 rpm max 5 min. Cruise speed - 6000 rpm. Eric Tucker, Kodiak Research indicates 5800 rpm optimum cruise. Only one way to keep up with flight time and engine operating time, log it. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:42 AM PST US From: "b young" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: WRT M3X prop boom measurements. Don't you believe manifold pressure or throttle position should also be a factor in determining % of power calculations? At full throttle my 503 pulled 2 inches of cable out of the housing and turned 6200 on climb out.But at cruise at 5500 it only pulled 7/8 of an inch of cable out of the housing.With no prop on it,it probably would turn 7000 slightly off idle but it would not be a good measure of power production.5800 could be 75% of allowable rpm but not power production it would seem to me. Just wondering,G Aman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Manifold pressure is the best way,, and the only way on a plane with a constant speed prop. But with a fixed pitch prop rpm does extremely well . and once the relationship between the two is determined, they are interchangeable. At least they would be interchangeable as long as the prop is pitched correctly. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:09 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > LUCIEN > > Cruise speed - 6500 rpm. > > john h > mkIII Well ok - it's your engine and airframe. Good luck with it.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246996#246996 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:03 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters >> Cruise speed - 6500 rpm. >> >> john h >> mkIII > > > Well ok - it's your engine and airframe. Good luck with it.... > > LS Those figures came right out of the Rotax two manual for the 582/503/447. This is what the manufacturer recommends. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:36 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > > Those figures came right out of the Rotax two manual for the 582/503/447. > > This is what the manufacturer recommends. > > john h > mkIII FWIW, the manual also recommends a max CHT of 485F on the 503. You might give Ronnie Smith or any other Rotax repair station a call about that one - ask them how long the engine will run at or even below 485F. You might be surprised at what they tell you. But like I said, you don't have to believe me. Lots of other guys with the same years and hours and even more on the 503 who can tell you more or less what I have.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247012#247012 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:16 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: blog? From: "JetPilot" That is a great idea Larry, I will visit often !!! Stuff like that will motivate those building and also probably also encourage others to build and fly Kolbs. Now that you have the page, we just need to find a way to advertise it to more pilots, I should post a link over on the Cessna List ;) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247033#247033 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:45 PM PST US From: "Tony Oldman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters 350 hrs at 6100 to 6200 and engine still running well, good compresions ,starts well and passes all tests . I did an overhaul on a 503 a number of years ago that included breaking the crank replacing the main bearings with proper rotax ones and re ringing the engine then flew about 200 hrs on it before selling the Thruster Gemini{ Australian kit} Last time I spoke to the new owner he had flown it past 800hrs and on sold the engine that was then put on another project and still running fine. This engine was a single points ignition T/C and always ran well, checked points and ring tensions about every 100hrs, other than that carbs cleaned and checked at 50hrs. Never found anything that would indicate that they needed looked at this often. The only problem that I ever had was some times it would idale a bit rough, every time this happened it was a bit of something{ fibreglass from the fuel tank }cought up in the fuel air mixing part of the carb . Very fine glass strands and hard to see for the first time Downunder MK111c 503 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Operating Parameters > > > > Ok, was just wondering. After 10 years and lost-count-of hours hanging > under the 503, I just found 6500 rpm continuous an extremely unusual > recommendation. not one that jives with my and many others experiences > with this engine. >> >> It's a good climbout RPM that will have no ill effects, but not on a >> continuous basis.... >> >> The 2 strokes stay together just fine over the long haul, but that means >> running at the 5400 watering hole rpm. 5800 the 447 and 503 can usually >> take ok, tho the engine would probably be more reliable over time about >> 400 rpm below that for cruise. Even more important for the 582. >> WOT all the time and no I'm not surprised you had some trouble with them. > > LUCIEN > > > The Op Man indicates take off speed 447/503 - 6800 rpm max 5 min. > > Cruise speed - 6500 rpm. > > > 582 - 6400 rpm max 5 min. > > Cruise speed - 6000 rpm. > > Eric Tucker, Kodiak Research indicates 5800 rpm optimum cruise. > > Only one way to keep up with flight time and engine operating time, log > it. > > john h > mkIII > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.