Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:46 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (dalewhelan)
2. 02:22 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (pj.ladd)
3. 03:55 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (Dana Hague)
4. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck)
5. 06:05 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (lucien)
6. 06:36 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (lucien)
7. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck)
8. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck)
9. 07:50 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (lucien)
10. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (pj.ladd)
11. 09:35 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off (GeoB)
12. 10:25 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (dalewhelan)
13. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck)
14. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (Ron @ KFHU)
15. 05:05 PM - Kiev Prop (mark rinehart)
16. 05:59 PM - Re: Kiev Prop (JetPilot)
17. 06:07 PM - Re: sweltering summer (JetPilot)
18. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (possums)
19. 08:35 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (Ron @ KFHU)
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
I will share what I have found, if you want more contact me off list to reduce
drama, I can call you if you like.
[quote="captainron1(at)cox.net"]To oil ratio I think giving it a bit more oil will
improve its reliability. There is of course a point where the oil is detrimental.
More oil can cause problems if the motor is run at too low an RPM, like on final,
or prolonged idling. If the motor is jetted rich it will cause more problem
so I have had to have the jetting right on all circuits.
For example the octane level may (?) start dropping and rapidly ( I need more data
on that though, as the oil may have somewhat of a retardant effect on burning
efficiency thus preventing detonation), burning efficiency starts falling
and so on.
There is a way to look at the plugs to see how close to detonation a motor is,
you can't easily read it if you are a few sizes rich. The common variables are
Mixture, load, relative air density, and rpm. Others include octane, ignition
timing, and compression ratio.
But with some experimentation I suppose I can find that point just before the decreased
ratio is becoming detrimental.
I have found with fuel testing on a dyno that the motor makes the most power just
before it detonates, changing the fuel octane resulted in no power difference
once timing was corrected for the fuel and jetting was correct. When you add
oxygenated fuel, well cool things happen to the power. If I publicly told you
what octane I use, the lynch mob would come looking for me, funny thing, looking
at my instructor plane, it seems to need more octane than mine.
At 35 / 1 the Cyuna seems happy so far. I may try later to 30 to 1 and see if its
good. I guess I could try 15-1 on the ground only and see what happens just
for the curiosity of it, but oil is more expensive than 91 octane so I guess
you can wonder if there is any point to it, to make more smoke and less power.
Gordon Jennings was my inspiration for oil ratio testing, I stopped at 20:1 on
my race bike, pipes are dry but it smokes in the pits. He was testing for McCullough
I think. He said that the motor kept making more power as he added oil
and corrected the tuning until he got to something like 12 or 14:1. At that point
power increase was negligible and plug fouling was common.
Once you reach the point where the motor gets all the lube it needs then we ain't
doing it anymore good tossing more oil into it.
We just need to be careful.
Some people have been kind enough to share some things with me off list, they make
some good points. They even gave me reasons for why it could be bad and what
to watch for.
Ron @ KFHU
I will strive to create less drama
Dale Whelan
=========================
---- dalewhelan wrote:
============
Not that this was the intent of this thread but, Is there anyone on this board
other than myself that has tried running more than the recommended amount of
oil and willing to share with me what they found.
Just for fun, even though I have no inclination to do so, is there anyone on this
board that has run less oil than 50:1, ( I once saw a company claim you could
run their oil at 150:1) If so would you share your results with me?
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 49046#249046
--
kugelair.com[/quote]
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249070#249070
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
So I just tow the line on what we know to be the most reliable running
configuration, rpms, installation, etc. and fly instead....>>
Hi Lucien,
I agree except that I would `toe the line` not `tow the line` Heh Heh.
Theres another controversial thread!
Cheers
Pat
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
At 10:08 PM 6/18/2009, dalewhelan wrote:
>Not that this was the intent of this thread but, Is there anyone on this
>board other than myself that has tried running more than the
>recommended amount of oil and willing to share with me what they found.
>Just for fun, even though I have no inclination to do so, is there anyone
>on this board that has run less oil than 50:1, ( I once saw a company
>claim you could run their oil at 150:1) If so would you share your results
>with me?
I have not, but kart and bike racers sometimes fiddle with the oil mix to
adjust the mixture when there's no time to make a jetting change (more oil
= less fuel so the engine runs leaner, and vice versa).
Remember that the oil lubricates, but it's the fuel, not the oil, that
cools the engine. More oil may give you more lubrication, but it's a much
worse at taking away heat than fuel. Also too much oil and you start
fouling spark plugs, particularly at low power settings... your engine may
quit (or just hesitate) just when you need it most, to go around or simply
stretch your glide after a long descent. Not to mention gunking up the
rings, and the black gook coating your prop.
OTOH, I have people telling me I should run my Cuyunna at 50:1 rather than
the manufacturer recommended 40:1... but I can't see any advantage. Sure,
I'd spend a bit less on oil, but it runs fine as it is, and I don't foul
plugs, so why mess with a good thing and have to fiddle with jetting all
over again?
-Dana
--
The sex was so good that even the neighbors had a cigarette.
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
> We just need to be careful.
> Some people have been kind enough to share some things with me off list,
> they make some good points. They even gave me reasons for why it could be
> bad and what to watch for.
> Dale Whelan
In the world of aviation we're looking for reliability while working with
continuous duty engines that are more like tractor and equipment engines
than racing engines.
I have found that the engineers at Rotax are pretty smart guys. They do a
good job of setting up the engines when they leave the factory. The primary
problem encountered by most enthusiast is correct prop pitch/loading. If it
is correct, jetting and spark plugs that come in the engine from the factory
will also be correct. The only other factor that will change factory tuning
is altitude and temperature extremes, if you are running the correct fuel
and oil.
To match the engine and prop is pretty simple. I have found if I pitch the
prop to just bump the red line at wide open throttle (WOT), straight and
level flight when the airplane is flying as fast as it is going to fly, I
have loaded the engine correctly and I will get the best performance in
climb and cruise. EGT and CHT will also be in the green.
The biggest mistake aviators make with two stroke engines is trying to tune
a two stroke to a prop that is not properly loading the engine. Once they
start this, they start chasing their tail in a circle that either never ends
or ends when the engine seizes.
Somewhere along the line I remember, either a Shell engineer or during one
of Eric Tucker's Rotax engine courses, that operating with too much oil is
detrimental to Rotax two strokes in many ways. One way is crank shaft
bearings which are designed to operate at a certain level of oil in the
crank case. Too much oil can cause these crank shaft bearings to fail.
Next time I talk to Ronnie Smith or Eric Tucker I will try to remember to
ask them about this. May be a figment of my imagination, but I don't think
so.
I don't get involved with two stroke aviation much any more. I haven't seen
much change in them in the last 25 years that I have been involved in
ultralight and light plane aviation. My experience was to follow the book,
leave them alone the way they came from the factory, fly them hard and not
baby them. I had good luck and flew two strokes over a lot of this country
back in the old days. I was not interested in squeezing every ounce of
power out of the little engine or changing what the factory engineers had
written in the operators manual. My primary goal was to get there and get
home safely, and have a lot of fun while I was at it.
The environment we play in is very unforgiving.
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:
>
> Hi Lucien,
> I agree except that I would `toe the line` not `tow the line` Heh Heh.
> Theres another controversial thread!
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
Heh. I stand corrected.
No more controversial threads for me, as I'm not into online group therapy anymore.
If people get flustered upon presentation of the facts, that's their problem
and I'm outta there. ;)
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249082#249082
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
John Hauck wrote:
>
> Somewhere along the line I remember, either a Shell engineer or during one
> of Eric Tucker's Rotax engine courses, that operating with too much oil is
> detrimental to Rotax two strokes in many ways. One way is crank shaft
> bearings which are designed to operate at a certain level of oil in the
> crank case. Too much oil can cause these crank shaft bearings to fail.
Another problem is the Dykes rings used in our 2-strokes. The longevity and maintenance
schedule for these engines was very carefully arrived at at _only_ the
suggested oil mixture of 50:1 (premix).
Normally, a Dykes does it's own decarb of the ring land as it moves in and out
of the ring groove during operation. With too much oil, however, this can be interfered
with causing premature sticking of this ring with the obvious disastrous
results.
Usually it's the lower ring that starts to stick first and this was the original
reason for the suggested 50 hour decarb schedule by Rotax. With the correct
oil mix, however, we can go 150 or more reliably before having to do a teardown
and decarb.
With too much oil, you're putting yourself in very dangerous territory here not
to mention all the other problems associated with doing that.
Motorcycle experience does NOT translate automatically to safe advice on a 2-stroke
on an _airplane_. The applications are _different_ and we have to be very
careful about where we get our advice on this like I said.
It's unfortunate that some had to get all riled up at being corrected on this.
For that personal issue I suggest going to a good friend, relative, pastor etc.
for solace and or guidance. That's not my problem.
Keeping someone's airplane out of the dirt or worse when I can help with that,
tho, I'll go ahead and make the leap there.....
The excessive oil use thing is one of these. Let's be careful out there guys.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249083#249083
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
----- Original Message -----
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:36 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem
>
>
> John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> Somewhere along the line I remember, either a Shell engineer or during
>> one
>> of Eric Tucker's Rotax engine courses, that operating with too much oil
>> is
>> detrimental to Rotax two strokes in many ways. One way is crank shaft
>> bearings which are designed to operate at a certain level of oil in the
>> crank case. Too much oil can cause these crank shaft bearings to fail.
>
>
> Another problem is the Dykes rings used in our 2-strokes. The longevity
> and maintenance schedule for these engines was very carefully arrived at
> at _only_ the suggested oil mixture of 50:1 (premix).
>
> Normally, a Dykes does it's own decarb of the ring land as it moves in and
> out of the ring groove during operation. With too much oil, however, this
> can be interfered with causing premature sticking of this ring with the
> obvious disastrous results.
>
> Usually it's the lower ring that starts to stick first and this was the
> original reason for the suggested 50 hour decarb schedule by Rotax. With
> the correct oil mix, however, we can go 150 or more reliably before having
> to do a teardown and decarb.
>
> With too much oil, you're putting yourself in very dangerous territory
> here not to mention all the other problems associated with doing that.
>
> Motorcycle experience does NOT translate automatically to safe advice on a
> 2-stroke on an _airplane_. The applications are _different_ and we have to
> be very careful about where we get our advice on this like I said.
>
> It's unfortunate that some had to get all riled up at being corrected on
> this. For that personal issue I suggest going to a good friend, relative,
> pastor etc. for solace and or guidance. That's not my problem.
>
> Keeping someone's airplane out of the dirt or worse when I can help with
> that, tho, I'll go ahead and make the leap there.....
>
> The excessive oil use thing is one of these. Let's be careful out there
> guys.
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249083#249083
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
>we have to be very careful about where we get our advice on this like I
said.
> LS
> Titan II SS
I'll agree with the above. Most of us, on this List, are known only from
what we post, not what we have actually done and do.
john h
mkIII - 2,950+ hours
912ULS - 389 hours
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
>
> I'll agree with the above. Most of us, on this List, are known only from
> what we post, not what we have actually done and do.
>
> john h
> mkIII - 2,950+ hours
> 912ULS - 389 hours
Absolutely, 100% correct.
In fact, for the 2-stroke experience I've given here, it's easy to verify independently. If anyone is so inclined, one of the best resources is Mark Smith at tristate kite sales (www.trikite.com). He's the most experienced repairman and operator of the Rotax 2-stroke line of engines in the US and probably the whole world. He started flying/maintaining 2-strokes, Rotax and others, in the late 70's and is still flying and working on them regularly today.
He'll give you the right scoop on the 503.
I've followed his advice on them religiously and sure enough accumulated about
10 years of great flying under/in front of the 447 and 503's with only one engine
out with the 447 (wiring error on my part) and not so much as a hiccup out
of the 503.
So again noone has to believe me, and in fact I'd be smart not to take my experience
at face value anyway. There're lots of other resources to draw from to
confirm my experience.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249103#249103
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
online group therapy>> I like that
Cheers
Pat
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off |
> was once by mistake overloaded with fuel.
I believe this was early post-war, in a B-17. He was overloaded with fuel AND un-weighed
cargo made up of weapons and other iron materials. The problem was disorganization
and working with untrained Indian ground crews who threw stuff
on until it looked about right. I don't know why he tried to take off with all
of that. Seems foolish. But I assume he was young and immortal. Reading the piece
made my tummy feel funny.
--------
GeoB
"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers,
so we could identify their corporate sponsors"
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249121#249121
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
I like the direction this thread has started to move in.
Because I told you so has never been reason enough for me.
I prefer to understand why.
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249127#249127
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
> I like the direction this thread has started to move in.
> Because I told you so has never been reason enough for me.
> I prefer to understand why.
>
> --------
> Dale Whelan
Experience is not gained behind the keyboard and monitor unless you are
striving to improve your computer skills.
john h
mkIII - Loaded up and on the way to see Brother Jim in Woodville, FL. Not
flying this trip, but pulling the 5th wheel at 70 mph, hopefully.
Haven't had a chance to improve my flying experience since I
landed from my flight out West three weeks ago today. Gosh, seems like 6
months.
I'm ready to go again. ;-)
Message 14
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
I am listening attentively here. I will be flying in short order a cayuna 430 which
is running good now on 35-40 to 1 mixture. sort bounced around in the Ultrlight
this morning. I will need to put about 6 hours without any stoppages to
satisfy a deal for some survey work. The advice I am getting here is to remain
on 40/1 mixture that Cayuna recommended.
I guess I'll stick with that. Is there anything none exotic that I can get at Walmart
that will do the job, or do I need to get some special oil. I think I read
in the past that Pennzoil something or other is the recommended oil, is that
so?
Ron @ KFHU
========================
---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote:
============
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
>
> I'll agree with the above. Most of us, on this List, are known only from
> what we post, not what we have actually done and do.
>
> john h
> mkIII - 2,950+ hours
> 912ULS - 389 hours
Absolutely, 100% correct.
In fact, for the 2-stroke experience I've given here, it's easy to verify independently. If anyone is so inclined, one of the best resources is Mark Smith at tristate kite sales (www.trikite.com). He's the most experienced repairman and operator of the Rotax 2-stroke line of engines in the US and probably the whole world. He started flying/maintaining 2-strokes, Rotax and others, in the late 70's and is still flying and working on them regularly today.
He'll give you the right scoop on the 503.
I've followed his advice on them religiously and sure enough accumulated about
10 years of great flying under/in front of the 447 and 503's with only one engine
out with the 447 (wiring error on my part) and not so much as a hiccup out
of the 503.
So again noone has to believe me, and in fact I'd be smart not to take my experience
at face value anyway. There're lots of other resources to draw from to
confirm my experience.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249103#249103
--
kugelair.com
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Mike Bigelow - is that Kiev prop still for sale? I just bought a 582 for my Kolb
Mark III and am looking for a prop.
Mark Rinehart
capt_riney@yahoo.com
Message 16
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Yeah,
Its still for sale, send me a PM.
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249176#249176
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Subject: | Re: sweltering summer |
They sneak up on you, and also have a way of building rapidly from nothing when
they have friends in the area. I have been chased back to the field a couple
times to land in a bunch of wind and turbulence as one built from nothing one
evening.
1000 feet, did you take your oxygen with you crystal ;) I think I go that high
in the pattern just to stay legal, but I never stay that high long enough to
get cool or hypoxia ! My Kolb is really happy flying around 10 feet over the
middle of nowhere like John W. used to do in his videos. Glad to hear you having
a good time, thats what its all about.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249178#249178
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
Try putting five gallons of diesel in it sometime.
I did that once when I used the wrong "green" handle at
the gas station where they have both gas & diesel
at the same pump and I had a hangover. Of course I had already added the
requisite amount of oil to the can so .............. don't know
what mixture that might have been.
The sucker started and smoked like a mosquito fogger. But it ran.
I finally figured out what I had done after about five minutes
of smoking up half the county. I actually think it
helped lube up the bearings, but you could never rev it up
high enough to take off.
>
>To oil ratio I think giving it a bit more oil will improve its
>reliability. I guess you can wonder if there is any point to it, to
>make more smoke and less power. Once you reach the point where the
>motor gets all the lube it needs then we ain't doing it anymore good
>tossing more oil into it.
>We just need to be careful.
>
>Ron @ KFHU
>-===========================================================
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: Rotax 503 running problem |
Thanks for the laugh. :-)
Ron @ KFHU
=================
---- possums <possums@bellsouth.net> wrote:
============
Try putting five gallons of diesel in it sometime.
I did that once when I used the wrong "green" handle at
the gas station where they have both gas & diesel
at the same pump and I had a hangover. Of course I had already added the
requisite amount of oil to the can so .............. don't know
what mixture that might have been.
The sucker started and smoked like a mosquito fogger. But it ran.
I finally figured out what I had done after about five minutes
of smoking up half the county. I actually think it
helped lube up the bearings, but you could never rev it up
high enough to take off.
>
>To oil ratio I think giving it a bit more oil will improve its
>reliability. I guess you can wonder if there is any point to it, to
>make more smoke and less power. Once you reach the point where the
>motor gets all the lube it needs then we ain't doing it anymore good
>tossing more oil into it.
>We just need to be careful.
>
>Ron @ KFHU
>-===========================================================
--
kugelair.com
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