---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/19/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:46 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (dalewhelan) 2. 02:22 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (pj.ladd) 3. 03:55 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (Dana Hague) 4. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck) 5. 06:05 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (lucien) 6. 06:36 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (lucien) 7. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck) 8. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck) 9. 07:50 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (lucien) 10. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (pj.ladd) 11. 09:35 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off (GeoB) 12. 10:25 AM - Re: Rotax 503 running problem (dalewhelan) 13. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (John Hauck) 14. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (Ron @ KFHU) 15. 05:05 PM - Kiev Prop (mark rinehart) 16. 05:59 PM - Re: Kiev Prop (JetPilot) 17. 06:07 PM - Re: sweltering summer (JetPilot) 18. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (possums) 19. 08:35 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 running problem (Ron @ KFHU) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:21 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem From: "dalewhelan" I will share what I have found, if you want more contact me off list to reduce drama, I can call you if you like. [quote="captainron1(at)cox.net"]To oil ratio I think giving it a bit more oil will improve its reliability. There is of course a point where the oil is detrimental. More oil can cause problems if the motor is run at too low an RPM, like on final, or prolonged idling. If the motor is jetted rich it will cause more problem so I have had to have the jetting right on all circuits. For example the octane level may (?) start dropping and rapidly ( I need more data on that though, as the oil may have somewhat of a retardant effect on burning efficiency thus preventing detonation), burning efficiency starts falling and so on. There is a way to look at the plugs to see how close to detonation a motor is, you can't easily read it if you are a few sizes rich. The common variables are Mixture, load, relative air density, and rpm. Others include octane, ignition timing, and compression ratio. But with some experimentation I suppose I can find that point just before the decreased ratio is becoming detrimental. I have found with fuel testing on a dyno that the motor makes the most power just before it detonates, changing the fuel octane resulted in no power difference once timing was corrected for the fuel and jetting was correct. When you add oxygenated fuel, well cool things happen to the power. If I publicly told you what octane I use, the lynch mob would come looking for me, funny thing, looking at my instructor plane, it seems to need more octane than mine. At 35 / 1 the Cyuna seems happy so far. I may try later to 30 to 1 and see if its good. I guess I could try 15-1 on the ground only and see what happens just for the curiosity of it, but oil is more expensive than 91 octane so I guess you can wonder if there is any point to it, to make more smoke and less power. Gordon Jennings was my inspiration for oil ratio testing, I stopped at 20:1 on my race bike, pipes are dry but it smokes in the pits. He was testing for McCullough I think. He said that the motor kept making more power as he added oil and corrected the tuning until he got to something like 12 or 14:1. At that point power increase was negligible and plug fouling was common. Once you reach the point where the motor gets all the lube it needs then we ain't doing it anymore good tossing more oil into it. We just need to be careful. Some people have been kind enough to share some things with me off list, they make some good points. They even gave me reasons for why it could be bad and what to watch for. Ron @ KFHU I will strive to create less drama Dale Whelan ========================= ---- dalewhelan wrote: ============ Not that this was the intent of this thread but, Is there anyone on this board other than myself that has tried running more than the recommended amount of oil and willing to share with me what they found. Just for fun, even though I have no inclination to do so, is there anyone on this board that has run less oil than 50:1, ( I once saw a company claim you could run their oil at 150:1) If so would you share your results with me? -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 49046#249046 -- kugelair.com[/quote] -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249070#249070 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:00 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem So I just tow the line on what we know to be the most reliable running configuration, rpms, installation, etc. and fly instead....>> Hi Lucien, I agree except that I would `toe the line` not `tow the line` Heh Heh. Theres another controversial thread! Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:59 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem At 10:08 PM 6/18/2009, dalewhelan wrote: >Not that this was the intent of this thread but, Is there anyone on this >board other than myself that has tried running more than the >recommended amount of oil and willing to share with me what they found. >Just for fun, even though I have no inclination to do so, is there anyone >on this board that has run less oil than 50:1, ( I once saw a company >claim you could run their oil at 150:1) If so would you share your results >with me? I have not, but kart and bike racers sometimes fiddle with the oil mix to adjust the mixture when there's no time to make a jetting change (more oil = less fuel so the engine runs leaner, and vice versa). Remember that the oil lubricates, but it's the fuel, not the oil, that cools the engine. More oil may give you more lubrication, but it's a much worse at taking away heat than fuel. Also too much oil and you start fouling spark plugs, particularly at low power settings... your engine may quit (or just hesitate) just when you need it most, to go around or simply stretch your glide after a long descent. Not to mention gunking up the rings, and the black gook coating your prop. OTOH, I have people telling me I should run my Cuyunna at 50:1 rather than the manufacturer recommended 40:1... but I can't see any advantage. Sure, I'd spend a bit less on oil, but it runs fine as it is, and I don't foul plugs, so why mess with a good thing and have to fiddle with jetting all over again? -Dana -- The sex was so good that even the neighbors had a cigarette. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:00 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem > We just need to be careful. > Some people have been kind enough to share some things with me off list, > they make some good points. They even gave me reasons for why it could be > bad and what to watch for. > Dale Whelan In the world of aviation we're looking for reliability while working with continuous duty engines that are more like tractor and equipment engines than racing engines. I have found that the engineers at Rotax are pretty smart guys. They do a good job of setting up the engines when they leave the factory. The primary problem encountered by most enthusiast is correct prop pitch/loading. If it is correct, jetting and spark plugs that come in the engine from the factory will also be correct. The only other factor that will change factory tuning is altitude and temperature extremes, if you are running the correct fuel and oil. To match the engine and prop is pretty simple. I have found if I pitch the prop to just bump the red line at wide open throttle (WOT), straight and level flight when the airplane is flying as fast as it is going to fly, I have loaded the engine correctly and I will get the best performance in climb and cruise. EGT and CHT will also be in the green. The biggest mistake aviators make with two stroke engines is trying to tune a two stroke to a prop that is not properly loading the engine. Once they start this, they start chasing their tail in a circle that either never ends or ends when the engine seizes. Somewhere along the line I remember, either a Shell engineer or during one of Eric Tucker's Rotax engine courses, that operating with too much oil is detrimental to Rotax two strokes in many ways. One way is crank shaft bearings which are designed to operate at a certain level of oil in the crank case. Too much oil can cause these crank shaft bearings to fail. Next time I talk to Ronnie Smith or Eric Tucker I will try to remember to ask them about this. May be a figment of my imagination, but I don't think so. I don't get involved with two stroke aviation much any more. I haven't seen much change in them in the last 25 years that I have been involved in ultralight and light plane aviation. My experience was to follow the book, leave them alone the way they came from the factory, fly them hard and not baby them. I had good luck and flew two strokes over a lot of this country back in the old days. I was not interested in squeezing every ounce of power out of the little engine or changing what the factory engineers had written in the operators manual. My primary goal was to get there and get home safely, and have a lot of fun while I was at it. The environment we play in is very unforgiving. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem From: "lucien" pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > > Hi Lucien, > I agree except that I would `toe the line` not `tow the line` Heh Heh. > Theres another controversial thread! > > Cheers > > Pat Heh. I stand corrected. No more controversial threads for me, as I'm not into online group therapy anymore. If people get flustered upon presentation of the facts, that's their problem and I'm outta there. ;) LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249082#249082 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:58 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > Somewhere along the line I remember, either a Shell engineer or during one > of Eric Tucker's Rotax engine courses, that operating with too much oil is > detrimental to Rotax two strokes in many ways. One way is crank shaft > bearings which are designed to operate at a certain level of oil in the > crank case. Too much oil can cause these crank shaft bearings to fail. Another problem is the Dykes rings used in our 2-strokes. The longevity and maintenance schedule for these engines was very carefully arrived at at _only_ the suggested oil mixture of 50:1 (premix). Normally, a Dykes does it's own decarb of the ring land as it moves in and out of the ring groove during operation. With too much oil, however, this can be interfered with causing premature sticking of this ring with the obvious disastrous results. Usually it's the lower ring that starts to stick first and this was the original reason for the suggested 50 hour decarb schedule by Rotax. With the correct oil mix, however, we can go 150 or more reliably before having to do a teardown and decarb. With too much oil, you're putting yourself in very dangerous territory here not to mention all the other problems associated with doing that. Motorcycle experience does NOT translate automatically to safe advice on a 2-stroke on an _airplane_. The applications are _different_ and we have to be very careful about where we get our advice on this like I said. It's unfortunate that some had to get all riled up at being corrected on this. For that personal issue I suggest going to a good friend, relative, pastor etc. for solace and or guidance. That's not my problem. Keeping someone's airplane out of the dirt or worse when I can help with that, tho, I'll go ahead and make the leap there..... The excessive oil use thing is one of these. Let's be careful out there guys. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249083#249083 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:17 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:36 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem > > > John Hauck wrote: >> >> Somewhere along the line I remember, either a Shell engineer or during >> one >> of Eric Tucker's Rotax engine courses, that operating with too much oil >> is >> detrimental to Rotax two strokes in many ways. One way is crank shaft >> bearings which are designed to operate at a certain level of oil in the >> crank case. Too much oil can cause these crank shaft bearings to fail. > > > Another problem is the Dykes rings used in our 2-strokes. The longevity > and maintenance schedule for these engines was very carefully arrived at > at _only_ the suggested oil mixture of 50:1 (premix). > > Normally, a Dykes does it's own decarb of the ring land as it moves in and > out of the ring groove during operation. With too much oil, however, this > can be interfered with causing premature sticking of this ring with the > obvious disastrous results. > > Usually it's the lower ring that starts to stick first and this was the > original reason for the suggested 50 hour decarb schedule by Rotax. With > the correct oil mix, however, we can go 150 or more reliably before having > to do a teardown and decarb. > > With too much oil, you're putting yourself in very dangerous territory > here not to mention all the other problems associated with doing that. > > Motorcycle experience does NOT translate automatically to safe advice on a > 2-stroke on an _airplane_. The applications are _different_ and we have to > be very careful about where we get our advice on this like I said. > > It's unfortunate that some had to get all riled up at being corrected on > this. For that personal issue I suggest going to a good friend, relative, > pastor etc. for solace and or guidance. That's not my problem. > > Keeping someone's airplane out of the dirt or worse when I can help with > that, tho, I'll go ahead and make the leap there..... > > The excessive oil use thing is one of these. Let's be careful out there > guys. > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249083#249083 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:16 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem >we have to be very careful about where we get our advice on this like I said. > LS > Titan II SS I'll agree with the above. Most of us, on this List, are known only from what we post, not what we have actually done and do. john h mkIII - 2,950+ hours 912ULS - 389 hours ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > > > I'll agree with the above. Most of us, on this List, are known only from > what we post, not what we have actually done and do. > > john h > mkIII - 2,950+ hours > 912ULS - 389 hours Absolutely, 100% correct. In fact, for the 2-stroke experience I've given here, it's easy to verify independently. If anyone is so inclined, one of the best resources is Mark Smith at tristate kite sales (www.trikite.com). He's the most experienced repairman and operator of the Rotax 2-stroke line of engines in the US and probably the whole world. He started flying/maintaining 2-strokes, Rotax and others, in the late 70's and is still flying and working on them regularly today. He'll give you the right scoop on the 503. I've followed his advice on them religiously and sure enough accumulated about 10 years of great flying under/in front of the 447 and 503's with only one engine out with the 447 (wiring error on my part) and not so much as a hiccup out of the 503. So again noone has to believe me, and in fact I'd be smart not to take my experience at face value anyway. There're lots of other resources to draw from to confirm my experience. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249103#249103 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:43 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem online group therapy>> I like that Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:56 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off From: "GeoB" > was once by mistake overloaded with fuel. I believe this was early post-war, in a B-17. He was overloaded with fuel AND un-weighed cargo made up of weapons and other iron materials. The problem was disorganization and working with untrained Indian ground crews who threw stuff on until it looked about right. I don't know why he tried to take off with all of that. Seems foolish. But I assume he was young and immortal. Reading the piece made my tummy feel funny. -------- GeoB "Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249121#249121 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:13 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem From: "dalewhelan" I like the direction this thread has started to move in. Because I told you so has never been reason enough for me. I prefer to understand why. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249127#249127 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:01 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem > I like the direction this thread has started to move in. > Because I told you so has never been reason enough for me. > I prefer to understand why. > > -------- > Dale Whelan Experience is not gained behind the keyboard and monitor unless you are striving to improve your computer skills. john h mkIII - Loaded up and on the way to see Brother Jim in Woodville, FL. Not flying this trip, but pulling the 5th wheel at 70 mph, hopefully. Haven't had a chance to improve my flying experience since I landed from my flight out West three weeks ago today. Gosh, seems like 6 months. I'm ready to go again. ;-) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:40 PM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem I am listening attentively here. I will be flying in short order a cayuna 430 which is running good now on 35-40 to 1 mixture. sort bounced around in the Ultrlight this morning. I will need to put about 6 hours without any stoppages to satisfy a deal for some survey work. The advice I am getting here is to remain on 40/1 mixture that Cayuna recommended. I guess I'll stick with that. Is there anything none exotic that I can get at Walmart that will do the job, or do I need to get some special oil. I think I read in the past that Pennzoil something or other is the recommended oil, is that so? Ron @ KFHU ======================== ---- lucien wrote: ============ John Hauck wrote: > > > > I'll agree with the above. Most of us, on this List, are known only from > what we post, not what we have actually done and do. > > john h > mkIII - 2,950+ hours > 912ULS - 389 hours Absolutely, 100% correct. In fact, for the 2-stroke experience I've given here, it's easy to verify independently. If anyone is so inclined, one of the best resources is Mark Smith at tristate kite sales (www.trikite.com). He's the most experienced repairman and operator of the Rotax 2-stroke line of engines in the US and probably the whole world. He started flying/maintaining 2-strokes, Rotax and others, in the late 70's and is still flying and working on them regularly today. He'll give you the right scoop on the 503. I've followed his advice on them religiously and sure enough accumulated about 10 years of great flying under/in front of the 447 and 503's with only one engine out with the 447 (wiring error on my part) and not so much as a hiccup out of the 503. So again noone has to believe me, and in fact I'd be smart not to take my experience at face value anyway. There're lots of other resources to draw from to confirm my experience. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249103#249103 -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:01 PM PST US From: mark rinehart Subject: Kolb-List: Kiev Prop Mike Bigelow - is that Kiev prop still for sale? I just bought a 582 for my Kolb Mark III and am looking for a prop. Mark Rinehart capt_riney@yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:49 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kiev Prop From: "JetPilot" Yeah, Its still for sale, send me a PM. -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249176#249176 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:42 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: sweltering summer From: "JetPilot" They sneak up on you, and also have a way of building rapidly from nothing when they have friends in the area. I have been chased back to the field a couple times to land in a bunch of wind and turbulence as one built from nothing one evening. 1000 feet, did you take your oxygen with you crystal ;) I think I go that high in the pattern just to stay legal, but I never stay that high long enough to get cool or hypoxia ! My Kolb is really happy flying around 10 feet over the middle of nowhere like John W. used to do in his videos. Glad to hear you having a good time, thats what its all about. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249178#249178 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:02 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem Try putting five gallons of diesel in it sometime. I did that once when I used the wrong "green" handle at the gas station where they have both gas & diesel at the same pump and I had a hangover. Of course I had already added the requisite amount of oil to the can so .............. don't know what mixture that might have been. The sucker started and smoked like a mosquito fogger. But it ran. I finally figured out what I had done after about five minutes of smoking up half the county. I actually think it helped lube up the bearings, but you could never rev it up high enough to take off. > >To oil ratio I think giving it a bit more oil will improve its >reliability. I guess you can wonder if there is any point to it, to >make more smoke and less power. Once you reach the point where the >motor gets all the lube it needs then we ain't doing it anymore good >tossing more oil into it. >We just need to be careful. > >Ron @ KFHU >-=========================================================== ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:46 PM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 503 running problem Thanks for the laugh. :-) Ron @ KFHU ================= ---- possums wrote: ============ Try putting five gallons of diesel in it sometime. I did that once when I used the wrong "green" handle at the gas station where they have both gas & diesel at the same pump and I had a hangover. Of course I had already added the requisite amount of oil to the can so .............. don't know what mixture that might have been. The sucker started and smoked like a mosquito fogger. But it ran. I finally figured out what I had done after about five minutes of smoking up half the county. I actually think it helped lube up the bearings, but you could never rev it up high enough to take off. > >To oil ratio I think giving it a bit more oil will improve its >reliability. I guess you can wonder if there is any point to it, to >make more smoke and less power. Once you reach the point where the >motor gets all the lube it needs then we ain't doing it anymore good >tossing more oil into it. >We just need to be careful. > >Ron @ KFHU >-=========================================================== -- kugelair.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.