Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:36 AM - Re: R: VGs (pj.ladd)
2. 04:08 AM - Re: R: VGs (Jack B. Hart)
3. 04:38 AM - Re: R: VGs (Brad Stump)
4. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl (Richard Girard)
5. 05:48 AM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
6. 06:06 AM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
7. 06:08 AM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
8. 07:26 AM - Re: R: VGs (robcannon)
9. 07:45 AM - Re: R: VGs (robcannon)
10. 07:52 AM - Alvord Photo 2009 (John Hauck)
11. 07:58 AM - Another Alvord Photo (John Hauck)
12. 07:59 AM - Re: Alvord photo 2009 (william sullivan)
13. 08:10 AM - Re: Another Alvord photo (william sullivan)
14. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (John Hauck)
15. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Another Alvord photo (John Hauck)
16. 08:48 AM - Alvord 2009 (John Hauck)
17. 08:51 AM - Re: VG's (Arksey@aol.com)
18. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Dana Hague)
19. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (Robert Laird)
20. 12:36 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot)
21. 12:37 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot)
22. 12:38 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot)
23. 12:57 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot)
24. 12:58 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot)
25. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: VG's (pj.ladd)
26. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
27. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (John Hauck)
28. 02:16 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot)
29. 02:27 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot)
30. 02:28 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot)
31. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
32. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl (Ron @ KFHU)
33. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Jack B. Hart)
34. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (John Hauck)
35. 03:05 PM - Re: R: VGs (zeprep251@aol.com)
36. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
37. 03:33 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot)
38. 03:43 PM - Re:R:VG's (william sullivan)
39. 03:53 PM - Re: Re:R:VG's (John Hauck)
40. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (robert bean)
41. 05:24 PM - Re: Alvord Photo 2009 (ces308)
42. 05:44 PM - Re: R: VGs (possums)
43. 05:52 PM - Re: Another Alvord Photo (ces308)
44. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Dana Hague)
45. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Alvord Photo 2009 (John Hauck)
46. 06:10 PM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
47. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: Another Alvord Photo (John Hauck)
48. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl (Dana Hague)
49. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (Tony Oldman)
50. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (Denny Rowe)
51. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Alvord Photo 2009 (chris davis)
52. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Jack B. Hart)
53. 08:19 PM - Re: cuyunna (George Myers)
54. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck)
55. 09:14 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (Larry Cottrell)
56. 09:25 PM - Re: Thank you (dalewhelan)
57. 09:51 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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Always impressed with the dramatic improvements in aircraft
performance and handling after installation of VGs. >>
John,
you are fighting a rearguard action but by crackey you are doing it very
well.
Pat
Message 2
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At 06:50 PM 6/24/09 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>If I could get a 10 mph reduction in stall speed in ground effect, I could
>land at 20 mph.
>
>
John,
The only way to find out is to try them. Why depend on others to do the
research for you? It only takes about $10 for materials and a few minutes
of your time to make them.
See "Vortex Generators" at:
http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/fireflyindex.html
Message 3
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Hi John,
To answer some of your questions,I will first throw in a disclaimer.Iam not a 1000
hr or more pilot,just a dumb old country boy who likes to fly.
My stall speed prior to vg's was 42mph indicated and 32mph after,there is very
possible a + or - a few mph because of all the things that we know that can cause
errors.
There is not a lot of difference in stall handling before or after,Iam flying a
Kolb mk3 and she has a very gentle stall, and no tendency to drop a wing,there
never was any violence as reported by some others.
In ground effect before vg's in the 42-45mph range the plane would just drop to
the runway,after the vg's I can get down into the 32-35mph range and the plane
just seems to settle to the runway.
I hope this helps someone.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
> Sent: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:50:36 -0500
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs
>
>
>>
>> My stall speed lowered by 10 mph.
>
>
> Brad S:
>
> That is an impressive improvement.
>
> What was your stall speed prior to, and after installation of
> VGs?
>
> At what altitude did you conduct your tests?
>
> What were the differences in stall characteristics prior to and after
> installation of VGs?
>
> How did the VGs affect speed at your normal cruise power setting?
>
> Did you test stall in ground effect, before and after?
>
> What airplane are you flying?
>
> Would you please expand on your experience flying this airplane before
> and
> after?
>
> If I could get a 10 mph reduction in stall speed in ground effect, I
> could
> land at 20 mph.
>
> john h
> mkIII - Always impressed with the dramatic improvements in aircraft
> performance and handling after installation of VGs.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl |
Ron, I know you're flying a minimal aircraft, I had a 'Dactyl cousin for a
few years, a Kasperwing. Very simple machine to fly and take care of. That
being said, if there is some way you can get that primer bulb out of your
fuel system, do it. They're a failure waiting to happen. One put my MkIII on
the ground with no warning. I bought three, two boat units and a Harbor
Freight siphon set up. The HF unit was dead right out of the box. One boat
unit failed almost right out of the package and all it was doing was
starting a siphon to drain tanks for winter storage. The last is my siphon
and will never get any higher that I can throw it.As for flying, if the
'Dactyl is anything like the Kwing, it has NO crosswind capability, I
learned lots of tricks to handle light crosswinds including the Polish
runway technique, but the bottom line is that straight into the wind works
every time, all else is a guess.
Your experience could be different.
Rick
do not archive
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Ron @ KFHU <captainron1@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Well i think I found out one problem, and it had to do with the bulb. It
> seemed that the Handy dude at the ranch who forced it into the tube cracked
> the intake into the bulb. When I repositioned the bulb and tried to insert
> it into its new position the prong just broke off easily. Re-did the entire
> fuel line, found out that I had a bulb that Kolb sent me back when I bought
> the kit. My buddy who is a good mechanic came and took a look at it. We had
> the Carb apart ( I said Bing,, its a Mikuni written right on it) he new it
> inside and out cleaned some air input and the needle closed it up. And
> tomorrow we shall see if I can get a solid hour out of it. Patched up the
> prop, new prop will be in tomorrow too late for the AM flight.
> Other than that will see what happens.
>
> Ron @ KFHU
> ===============================
> ---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ============
>
> At 09:02 AM 6/24/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>
> >I have the bulb above the fuel filter ( the bulb is brand new from
> >Aircraft Spruce, the original was rot cracked, plugs are also brand
> new)...
>
> Same here... my original bulb was dry and hard; I replaced it with a brand
> new bulb from Aircraft Spruce. The brand new bulb was bad (clogged) out of
> the box. It would pass enough fuel for warmup and mid power, and let the
> carb bowl fill, but at full power the it couldn't keep up and the engine
> would starve for fuel shortly after takeoff. I discovered this the hard
> way on my first flight in the plane; fortunately it would make enough power
> to get around the pattern and land. I now have a plunger primer and no
> squeeze bulb.
>
> > ...and we did not install it with hose clams at all. I have already
> > taken care of that now. I have it installed Fuel Tank, filter, bulb,
> > pump, I also have yet to run the motor to check and see if the problem is
> > solved. All that stuff happened yesterday. The bubbles start right at the
> > fuel filter probably air was getting in that area, and also was another
> > bubble stream was getting in around the bulb. I think this will be a none
> > issue as I now have clamps there too.
>
> The point I was making is that the clamps can CAUSE an air leak, since they
> don't do a very good job of clamping all the way around small
> hoses. Safety wire (wrap around the hose three times, then twist) does a
> better job and is lighter as well.
>
> I would look for a blockage upstream of the first place you see the
> bubbles. Places to look are the pickup inside the tank, and any fittings.
>
> Do you have and EGT and/or CHT gauges on the engine? If so, what do they
> say? If not, you should.
>
> >-Sputtering; On take off it was good all the way to mid power, but no
> >sooner I cleared the strip it started bogging down I brought the power
> >back and it seemed to have gone away. But every time after that when I
> >gave it opened throttle more to get some more altitude it started bogging
> >down again.
>
> Sounds like my experience, except that the rpm's were surging up and down.
>
> >I never opened a Bing carb before and don't have the manual can you tell
> >me about the jetting in a bit more detail. Density Altitude around here is
> >around 7-8K this time of year.
>
> You have a Bing? The Cuyunas originally came with a Mikuni which is a much
> better carburetor for these engines. I'm told that lots of people have
> trouble getting the engine to run correctly with the Bing.
>
> The Cuyuna manual (as well as the Mikuni manual) can be downloaded from the
> files section of the Cuyuna Yahoo group (I put them there):
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cuyunamotor>
> You might get some more useful advice there, too, though it's not a very
> active group.
>
> -Dana
> --
> To Be Old And Wise You Must First Be Young And Stupid
>
>
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
Message 5
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>
> The only way to find out is to try them.
Morning Jack:
I have tried VG's, several times. I have also done a side by side flight
comparison between my fat old bird and a much lighter MKIII. The results of
those flights did not convince me to install VGs on my airplane.
This last flight West was interesting. There were times when I could have
used a lot more lift. Then there were times when I wished I had spoilers
installed on my wings. At the Rock House, in the desert of SE Oregon, we
watched our Kolbs attempting to fly and flying while tied down. Then there
was the difficult time at Grants, NM, where we were trying to deal with a
density altiutude of 9,300 feet, severe turbulence, cross wind, and dust
devils, on take off. I don't know if VGs would have helped me at Grants or
not.
john h
mkIII
Message 6
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> My stall speed prior to vg's was 42mph indicated and 32mph after,there is
very possible a + or - a few mph because of all the things that we know that
can cause errors.
> In ground effect before vg's in the 42-45mph range the plane would just
> drop to the runway,after the vg's I can get down into the 32-35mph range
> and the plane just seems to settle to the runway.
Brad S:
A 10 mph decrease in stall speed is still a very impressive number.
In ground effect I get the same flight characteristics as you on the FSII I
was flying with VGs. The break at stall was very gentle. Other than that,
I could not find any other improvements in flight over a FSII without VGs.
My experience with Kolb aircraft indicates they fly as well without as they
do with VGs except for the very gentle break on landing. As far as extra
steep climbs, steep turns, and great control right through the mush/stall,
they all do it without VGs.
I have discovered I can make good landings if I stall the airplane closer to
the ground. If I stall it a foot above the ground, it will drop a foot. If
I don't want to take the chance of dropping in, I can always fly the Kolb to
the ground above stall speed.
john h
mkIII
Message 7
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> you are fighting a rearguard action but by crackey you are doing it very
> well.
>
> Pat
Patrick:
No fight intended.
Trying to learn.
john h
mkIII
Message 8
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Kolb Mark II, Hks 700 E, 550 lbs empty, 180 lb pilot, 2000'asl. Initial flights
with no vg's I was surprized and unhappy with my high stall speed of 38 mph
power off. I added vg's as an experiment with low expectations. You should have
seen my face when I landed after the first flight with vg's. Ten dollars
worth of hardware store flashing and a days messing around and my stall dropped
minimum 10 mph. That's right TEN mph ! TEN DOLLARS - TEN MPH. Stall characteristics
did not change that much - clean break around 26, but will mush along
in full control right down to 26.
The advantages here are obvious. The disadvantages are minuscule. Top speed
does not seem affected, but my testing would not be very accurate as my plane
is easily goes over vne, and low speed is my focus, so I didn't do very scientific
testing. I thought washing the wing would be a hassle but the soft bristle
brush I use doesnt seem to notice the vg's.
If anyone wants to make there own I'll send you a pattern one and instructions.
I tested different adhesives and decided upon indoor/outdoor carpet tape from
wallmart. It's sticky shit that is never coming off and is much cleaner to
use than any liquid adhesive ( just happens to come in a roll the same width
as the vg's). I put a rivet in the ones in front of the prop just in case but
in hindsite I don't think it was necessary. Try it you'll like it !! Rob Cannon
[Laughing]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249950#249950
Message 9
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Oh yeah, forgot the landing part. I can now land at fifteen mph in ground effect.
............. Just kidding ..... With my 26 mph stall, I cant land this slow
as my tail will be too low. I built tall gear legs and I can get down pretty
slow (32 - 35) but any slower and the tail hits first.
The advantage is a huge safety margin at slow speeds. Theoretically I could
fly approaches at 39 mph ( with a 1.5 safety factor), but I fly them at 45 - 50.
If I have an engine failure, I can do a 180 at 45-50 and be around quicker
and higher. blah,blah,blah, Rob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249952#249952
Message 10
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| Subject: | Alvord Photo 2009 |
Mike M accompanied us Kolbers to the Rock House in Oregon last month. Mike
is a very accomplished photographer. He took this shot of Miss P'fer doing
her thing over the Alvord Desert. Thanks Mike.
john h
mkIII
Message 11
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| Subject: | Another Alvord Photo |
Beautiful blue sky.
Another photo by Mark M.
john h
mkIII
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord photo 2009 |
- Nice photo, John.- What are those straight lines going from the wing
to the halfway point on the wing struts?
-
-------------------------
----------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
------------------Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
----------------- FS 447
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Another Alvord photo |
- And an even better one!- What is the thing hanging down between the l
anding gear, just below the seat?
-
-------------------------
---------------- Bill Sullivan
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord photo 2009 |
Those are streamlined 4130 jury struts. When I was building my MKIII at
Old Kolb in 1991, Homer Kolb asked me to install jury struts that were
in the plans. Although the factory MKIII did not have them installed,
Homer asked me to put them on my MKIII. I had not planned on using
them. He told me if I installed them it would encourage others to
install them. Don't think I have ever seen another Kolb with jury
struts. They did save my left lift strut when I wiped out the landing
gear at Muncho Lake, BC, in 2000. When the gear leg/axle socket failed,
the aircraft dropped down with the lift strut landing on top of the left
main tire. The lift strut would have been bent had the jury strut not
been installed.
john h
mkIII
Nice photo, John. What are those straight lines going from
the wing to the halfway point on the wing struts?
Bill Sullivan
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Another Alvord photo |
Bill S:
That is the landing light. It is a KC off road driving light, 100w
halogen. Works well and is much more reliable than the old GE H4095
sealed beam, which were good for about 10 hours or less. My MKIII is
certified for night flight. I used to do a lot of night flying early
on, but do not fly at night now unless I get caught out and it gets dark
on me. My night system is not redundant. Murphy loves that and will
rear his ugly head the first time I get a little over confident.
john h
mkIII
And an even better one! What is the thing hanging down
between the landing gear, just below the seat?
Bill Sullivan
Message 16
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An unforgetable flight with my friends to the Alvord and beyond.
Looking forward to doing it again next year.
john h
mkIII
Message 17
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I have discovered I can make good landings if I stall the airplane closer
to
the ground. If I stall it a foot above the ground, it will drop a foot.
If
I don't want to take the chance of dropping in, I can always fly the Kolb
to
the ground above stall speed.
john h
mkIII
I like this statement by John H, while I have never flown a kolb with vg's
I have experenced the drop at landing and I think a few times more than a
foot from the ground...I now fly the plane onto the ground and have not
had any drops like before....It is interesting because I have a friend In PA
that I talked into getting a Kolb firestar ll, he likes it and has not had
a problem with landing...he taught himself to fly quite a few years ago in
ultra lights...he is now working on his sport license....but I ask him how
he lands the plane and he tells me that he wheel lands it....he fly's it on
and keeps the tail off the ground for a bit and it seems to be natural for
him, works good for him and no bad landings..us old time pilots from
general aviation seem to have trouble with the drop that John describes and I
think it goes back to our training to do full stall landings. I have not put
VG's on my firestar and if i can land it without the bad drop I do not think
I will....I think I am improving with my landings..hope so...JimSwan
do not archive
JIM SWAN
firestar ll, 503, N663S
Eaton Rapids, Mi. 48827
PH 517-663-8488 runway 2300' E & W (42-28.58N 084-44.69 W )
**************Shop Popular Dell Laptops now starting at $349!
bleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215910283%3B38350812%3Ba)
Message 18
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At 10:26 AM 6/25/2009, robcannon wrote:
>...my stall dropped minimum 10 mph.... The disadvantages are minuscule...
Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at
25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the
wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual
rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive
to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower
that flyable threshold at all.
-Dana
--
Question Authority and the authorities will question you!
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord photo 2009 |
I have jury struts on my MkIII.
-- Robert
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> Those are streamlined 4130 jury struts. When I was building my MKIII at
> Old Kolb in 1991, Homer Kolb asked me to install jury struts that were in
> the plans. Although the factory MKIII did not have them installed, Homer
> asked me to put them on my MKIII. I had not planned on using them. He told
> me if I installed them it would encourage others to install them. Don't
> think I have ever seen another Kolb with jury struts. They did save my left
> lift strut when I wiped out the landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC, in 2000.
> When the gear leg/axle socket failed, the aircraft dropped down with the
> lift strut landing on top of the left main tire. The lift strut would have
> been bent had the jury strut not been installed.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
> Nice photo, John. What are those straight lines going from the wing
> to the halfway point on the wing struts?
>
> Bill Sullivan
>
>
> **
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 20
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Dana wrote:
> At 10:26 AM 6/25/2009, robcannon wrote:
>
> > ...my stall dropped minimum 10 mph.... The disadvantages are minuscule...
> >
> >
>
> Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at
> 25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the
> wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual
> rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive
> to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower
> that flyable threshold at all.
>
> -Dana
>
> Dana,
>
> Your understanding of this is wrong. What you do not want is a gust causing
a loss of airspeed and stall in the airplane. VG's expand your flying envalope
and increase your safety margain aginst gust induced stall. Lets take a Firestar,
say it stalls at 30 MPH. If you approach at 40 MPH, a 10 MPH gust could
place you at the stall speed. With the same firestar with VG's, if you stall
at 22 MPH with VG's, a 10 MPH gust would not cause a stall, it would take
an 18 MPH gust to put you at stall speed. This equals increased safety.
>
> You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The danger
is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low approach
speed. The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches slow if you
are in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your protection against
gust induced stalls.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --
> Question Authority and the authorities will question you!
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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Dana wrote:
> At 10:26 AM 6/25/2009, robcannon wrote:
>
> > ...my stall dropped minimum 10 mph.... The disadvantages are minuscule...
> >
> >
>
> Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at
> 25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the
> wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual
> rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive
> to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower
> that flyable threshold at all.
>
> -Dana
>
> Dana,
>
> Your understanding of this is wrong. You are misapplying a generality that applies
to slow flying airplanes where the approach speed is very close to what
its stall speed is. What you do not want is a gust causing a loss of airspeed
and stall in the airplane. VG's expand your flying envelope and increase your
safety margin against gust induced stall. Lets take a Firestar, say it stalls
at 30 MPH. If you approach at 40 MPH, a 10 MPH gust could place you at the
stall speed. With the same Firestar with VG's, if you stall at 22 MPH with
VG's, a 10 MPH gust would not cause a stall, it would take an 18 MPH gust to
put you at stall speed. This equals increased safety.
>
> You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The danger
is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low approach
speed. The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches slow if you
are in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your protection against
gust induced stalls.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Question Authority and the authorities will question you!
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250007#250007
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Dana wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at
> 25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the
> wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual
> rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive
> to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower
> that flyable threshold at all.
>
> -Dana
>
Dana,
Your understanding of this is wrong. You are misapplying a generality that applies
to slow flying airplanes where the approach speed is very close to what its
stall speed is. What you do not want is a gust causing a loss of airspeed
and stall in the airplane. VG's expand your flying envelope and increase your
safety margin against gust induced stall. Lets take a Firestar, say it stalls
at 30 MPH. If you approach at 40 MPH, a 10 MPH gust could place you at the
stall speed. With the same Firestar with VG's, if you stall at 22 MPH with
VG's, a 10 MPH gust would not cause a stall, it would take an 18 MPH gust to put
you at stall speed. This equals increased safety.
You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The danger
is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low approach speed.
The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches slow if you are
in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your protection against
gust induced stalls.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Still curious how Mike B knew VG's would have saved the ship.
>
> john h
> mkIII
John,
I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without VG's.
Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes performance
but a SMALL amount, not by a lot. VG's have increased my performance by more
than this amount. I have done flight tests, and even posted videos of my
plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same circumstances described
in Dales accident.
There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can not even
com close to landing power off at the speeds I can. People that have flown
both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles and lands. They
describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with power off at slower speeds,
while mine greases right on.
We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the amount
of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have most definitely
made the difference in this case.
Dale,
You did not read my post very well, I talked about " MUSH " and how the stall speed
was not the best part of VG"s... Elimination of the mush and reduced response
at slower speeds is probably the best part of VG"s. I stated this very
clearly. I have posted this many times in the past before your accident.
Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on how to
make your Kolb perform better at low speeds. You can either try VG's for yourself,
or ignore the evidence.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Still curious how Mike B knew VG's would have saved the ship.
>
> john h
> mkIII
John,
I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without VG's.
Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes performance
but a SMALL amount, not by a lot. VG's have increased my performance by more
than this amount. I have done flight tests, and even posted videos of my
plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same circumstances described
in Dales accident.
There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can not even
com close to landing power off at the speeds I can. People that have flown
both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles and lands. They
describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with power off at slower speeds,
while mine greases right on.
We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the amount
of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have most definitely
made the difference in this case.
Dale,
You did not read my post very well, I talked about " MUSH " and how the stall speed
was not the best part of VG"s... Elimination of the mush and reduced response
at slower speeds is probably the best part of VG"s. I stated this very
clearly. I have posted this many times in the past before your accident. If
you do put on VG's, the design and placement of VG's is CRITICAL to them working
well. Just cutting some aluminum and placing them where it " Looks Right
" does not cut it. Spend the 100 bucks and get them from and follow their directions
exactly.
www.landshorter.com
Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on how to
make your Kolb perform better at low speeds. You can either try VG's for yourself,
or ignore the evidence.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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I have not put
VG's on my firestar and if i can land it without the bad drop I do not
think
I will....I think I am improving with my landings..>>
Hi,
`The drop` is something all planes do , not only Kolbs. Slow down to
land, stall, drop!
The trick is to stall as close to the ground as possible. The closer you
are, the smaller `the drop`.
VG`s merely enable you to go more slowly before you stall. If you do it
10ft up they will be no help whatever. Fitting VG`s does not make you a
better pilot, merely extends the planes flying envelope a bit.
Good luck
Pat
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> You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The
danger is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low
approach speed. The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches
slow if you are in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your
protection against gust induced stalls.
>
> Mike
Mike B:
So...I increase my approach speed 10 to 15 mph and I am good to go without
VGs.
I'm not concerned over the small amount of difference in speed between "with
and without VGs" when I stall at 30 mph IAS in ground effect. Even if I
stalled at 40 mph in ground effect, I still would not be concerned about my
approach speeds of 50 to 60 mph IAS.
I'm very conservative when it comes to stall and approach speeds. I usually
shoot my approaches at 50 to 60 mph IAS, even on my short 750 ft strip.
VGs aren't going to do a whole lot to improve safety. We are talking of
very slow speeds with and without. Most average pilots should be able to
adjust a couple mph.
What makes landing with zero ground roll so important?
john h
MKIII
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> I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without
VG's. Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes
performance but a SMALL amount, not by a lot. VG's have increased my
performance by more than this amount. I have done flight tests, and even
posted videos of my plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same
circumstances described in Dales accident.
> There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can
> not even com close to landing power off at the speeds I can. People that
> have flown both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles
> and lands. They describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with
> power off at slower speeds, while mine greases right on.
> We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the
> amount of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have
> most definitely made the difference in this case.
> Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on
> how to make your Kolb perform better at low speeds. You can either try
> VG's for yourself, or ignore the evidence.
>
> Mike
Mike B:
I don't agree with anything referenced above.
The only thing that would have helped Dale W keep from busting his and his
girl friend's butts would have been more airspeed. Larry Cottrell could
probably add some actual experience information he gained by stalling his
FSII equipped with VGs. This is also the airplane that I have flown several
times to see how the VGs perform. Larry also busted his butt when he got
too slow, too close to the ground, with the "devices". ;-) If you stall
the airplane close to the ground, with or without VGs, you are going to bend
and/or break something.
I have well over 6,000 documented landings, in my log book, in all kinds of
conditions on my mkIII alone. Most of them have been power off right to the
ground, full flaps, full stall. All the other mkIII's I have flown, land
the same way.
john h
mkIII
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John H,
My ground roll is most assuredly longer than yours is, even with VG's.. I need
bigger brakes !!!
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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John H,
What kind of VG's does Larry have ? The only time I have seen reports that VG's
have had little effect is when they have been made at home, not the exact same
size and shape, or when they have been put on incorrectly. Like I said, as
with anything in aviation, they must be put on to precise tolerances or they
wont work very well.
Your experience in a Kolb may be why you think VG's are not needed. I am sure
you can out fly anyone here, and I think your skill level is to the point that
you don't even notice things that would be difficult for most others. You could
probably do a very difficult landing in a Kolb with a cup of coffee in one
hand while carrying on a casual conversation, while others would bend the gear.
Where VG's would help most others, you would compensate with skill, I just
have to guess that is why you don't really notice the difference.
I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed VG's that
are put on exactly like they should be. I would be very interested to see
what you think.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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John H,
What kind of VG's does Larry have ? The only time I have seen reports that VG's
have had little effect is when they have been made at home, not the exact same
size and shape, or when they have been put on incorrectly. Like I said, as
with anything in aviation, they must be put on to precise tolerances or they
wont work very well.
Your experience in a Kolb may be why you think VG's are not needed. I am sure
you can out fly anyone here, and I think your skill level is to the point that
you don't even notice things that would be difficult for most others. You could
probably do a very difficult landing in a Kolb with a cup of coffee in one
hand while carrying on a casual conversation, while others would bend the gear.
Where VG's would help most others, you would compensate with skill, I just
have to guess that is why you don't really notice the difference.
I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed VG's that
are put on exactly like they should be. I would be very interested to see
what you think.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
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> My ground roll is most assuredly longer than yours is, even with VG's..
I need bigger brakes !!!
>
> Mike
Mike B:
Get some good MATCO's with 3/4" axles and tapered roller bearings. I have
had mine since I wiped off the main gear 9 years ago next week.
In fact, they are so good they slow the mkIII down before touch down.
hehehe
john h
mkIII
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| From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl |
Well I am back and well after hanging under that 30+ year old Dacron for an hr
and some minutes. The Bulb I got from Kolb worked just fine, the old Cuyuna worked
without once sputtering. Whatever we did took care of the issues. Towards
the end I actually started feeling comfortable. Landings have never been a problem
in this machine, it lands so slow that if I have too I would land it crosswise
or any angle needed on the runway or intersection of runways.
The big problem was, and may still be the time table I had to operate under. I
got the job two weeks ago and in that time I had to find an ultralight and get
it ready for the job. I honestly lost 5 pounds in that time to get it ready
from a collection parts in sand dust and rubbish it was under to make it fly,
in some on border Ranch away from paved roads.
It still looks like hell but now it flies. I have never seen a pterodactyl before
so this was some education. I did modify the two front sticking posts holding
the canard by placing a brace between them after the first test hop showed
them sorta meandering around, amazing that people fly them without those.
One more problem though, on anything more than 60% power it just powerfully wants
to climb, and I am not about to snap one of them connecting roads by forcing
the canard down, it already looks like its under strain, not to mention my arm
pushing forward on the stick.
I am guessing the motor is too low and thus pendulum the whole contraption up with
any type of power.
========================================
---- Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
============
Ron, I know you're flying a minimal aircraft, I had a 'Dactyl cousin for a
few years, a Kasperwing. Very simple machine to fly and take care of. That
being said, if there is some way you can get that primer bulb out of your
fuel system, do it. They're a failure waiting to happen. One put my MkIII on
the ground with no warning. I bought three, two boat units and a Harbor
Freight siphon set up. The HF unit was dead right out of the box. One boat
unit failed almost right out of the package and all it was doing was
starting a siphon to drain tanks for winter storage. The last is my siphon
and will never get any higher that I can throw it.As for flying, if the
'Dactyl is anything like the Kwing, it has NO crosswind capability, I
learned lots of tricks to handle light crosswinds including the Polish
runway technique, but the bottom line is that straight into the wind works
every time, all else is a guess.
Your experience could be different.
Rick
do not archive
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Ron @ KFHU <captainron1@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Well i think I found out one problem, and it had to do with the bulb. It
> seemed that the Handy dude at the ranch who forced it into the tube cracked
> the intake into the bulb. When I repositioned the bulb and tried to insert
> it into its new position the prong just broke off easily. Re-did the entire
> fuel line, found out that I had a bulb that Kolb sent me back when I bought
> the kit. My buddy who is a good mechanic came and took a look at it. We had
> the Carb apart ( I said Bing,, its a Mikuni written right on it) he new it
> inside and out cleaned some air input and the needle closed it up. And
> tomorrow we shall see if I can get a solid hour out of it. Patched up the
> prop, new prop will be in tomorrow too late for the AM flight.
> Other than that will see what happens.
>
> Ron @ KFHU
> ===============================
> ---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ============
>
> At 09:02 AM 6/24/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>
> >I have the bulb above the fuel filter ( the bulb is brand new from
> >Aircraft Spruce, the original was rot cracked, plugs are also brand
> new)...
>
> Same here... my original bulb was dry and hard; I replaced it with a brand
> new bulb from Aircraft Spruce. The brand new bulb was bad (clogged) out of
> the box. It would pass enough fuel for warmup and mid power, and let the
> carb bowl fill, but at full power the it couldn't keep up and the engine
> would starve for fuel shortly after takeoff. I discovered this the hard
> way on my first flight in the plane; fortunately it would make enough power
> to get around the pattern and land. I now have a plunger primer and no
> squeeze bulb.
>
> > ...and we did not install it with hose clams at all. I have already
> > taken care of that now. I have it installed Fuel Tank, filter, bulb,
> > pump, I also have yet to run the motor to check and see if the problem is
> > solved. All that stuff happened yesterday. The bubbles start right at the
> > fuel filter probably air was getting in that area, and also was another
> > bubble stream was getting in around the bulb. I think this will be a none
> > issue as I now have clamps there too.
>
> The point I was making is that the clamps can CAUSE an air leak, since they
> don't do a very good job of clamping all the way around small
> hoses. Safety wire (wrap around the hose three times, then twist) does a
> better job and is lighter as well.
>
> I would look for a blockage upstream of the first place you see the
> bubbles. Places to look are the pickup inside the tank, and any fittings.
>
> Do you have and EGT and/or CHT gauges on the engine? If so, what do they
> say? If not, you should.
>
> >-Sputtering; On take off it was good all the way to mid power, but no
> >sooner I cleared the strip it started bogging down I brought the power
> >back and it seemed to have gone away. But every time after that when I
> >gave it opened throttle more to get some more altitude it started bogging
> >down again.
>
> Sounds like my experience, except that the rpm's were surging up and down.
>
> >I never opened a Bing carb before and don't have the manual can you tell
> >me about the jetting in a bit more detail. Density Altitude around here is
> >around 7-8K this time of year.
>
> You have a Bing? The Cuyunas originally came with a Mikuni which is a much
> better carburetor for these engines. I'm told that lots of people have
> trouble getting the engine to run correctly with the Bing.
>
> The Cuyuna manual (as well as the Mikuni manual) can be downloaded from the
> files section of the Cuyuna Yahoo group (I put them there):
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cuyunamotor>
> You might get some more useful advice there, too, though it's not a very
> active group.
>
> -Dana
> --
> To Be Old And Wise You Must First Be Young And Stupid
>
>
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
--
kugelair.com
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At 03:24 PM 6/25/09 -0500, you wrote:
>
>What makes landing with zero ground roll so important?
>
John,
Zero ground roll is a splat, but it what is important is a low energy
landing. Where this is useful is when you are landing on an unfamiliar
landing area. The slower you can fly the plane at touch down the less
likely you are going to bend something or tear out a leg socket. Why risk
the plane? This does not rule out the use of a high energy approach to
landing. Also, this is why it is important to learn to three point. VG's
will knock the energy down by 5 to 10 mph. In this case it can make the
difference of flying or trucking it home. I have done both and flying is
much more fun.
Fly safe.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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> I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed
VG's that are put on exactly like they should be. I would be very
interested to see what you think.
>
> Mike
Mike B:
Maybe I'll have a chance to take you flying in my mkIII, or your mkIII, or
both. That would be a good comparison, both.
Kolbs are easy to fly. Very forgiving, as long as you stay above stall
speed when close to the ground.
All my flight time since I retired as a Army helicopter pilot and taught
myself to fly my Ultrastar (my solo fixed wing flight in 1984), has been in
Kolbs, with the exception of about 20 hours in a C 172, 19 years ago, to get
my private ticket to fly my mkIII, and a few hours in Bert Howland's
personal Honey Bee in 1989, 20 years ago. You might say I have specialized
in building and flying Kolbs. I still fly mine because I haven't found
anything to replace it with that would be an improvement on my style of
flying. I'm pretty sure I have learned a few things about these little
airplanes along the way, but not any more than any other pilot would in the
same circumstances.
One thing that I have found out, when I occassionally fly someone else's
Kolb, many times, is the fact that they lack the knowledge and experience to
set up the airplane correctly so that it flies the way I think a Kolb should
fly. If you don't know the difference, you will keep on keeping on thinking
you have the best that Kolb has to offer, when a little tweak here and there
might make a new airplane out of it.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
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Think I'll put 3 sets on ,then I can hover.
?????????????? G.Aman mk-3c
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 8:11 am
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs
At 06:50 PM 6/24/09 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>If I could get a 10 mph reduction in stall speed in ground effect, I could
>land at 20 mph.
>
>
John,
The only way to find out is to try them. Why depend on others to do the
research for you? It only takes about $10 for materials and a few minutes
of your time to make them.
See "Vortex Generators" at:
http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/fireflyindex.html
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> Zero ground roll is a splat
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H:
Zero ground roll is very attainable.
Did one in my Ultrastar and the MKIII. Both under same circumstances.
Wish John W was still here to verify my landing at Canon City, Colorado, in
2004, where I met John to do an attempt on Leadville, CO, highest airport in
the North American Continent. John landed at 1300 with 21 steady and gusts.
I landed at 1700 with 38 steady and gusts. I hovered to a touch down on a
gravel pad between the taxiway and the active. John was standing there to
catch the wing when I touched down. I'm sure we shared this with you all
after it happened. We were on our way to MV.
The landing I did at the Rock House this year, was done without flaps at 50
mph IAS. If I had known the turbulence was going to slack off the moment I
touched down, I could have used full flaps and done another hovering touch
down. If you saw John B's video clip of my landing, you can see how short
my ground roll was touching down at 50 mph IAS. I can assure you we had
some "real" wind that day, that continued for another couple days without
let up.
Last year, 2008, John W and I were grounded in Ontario, OR, with 45 mph
winds and gust over 50 mph for three days and nights without let up.
Normally, we set 25 mph steady as our red line for not flying.
Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a lot of
difference in surviving the landing or not.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> One thing that I have found out, when I occassionally fly someone else's
> Kolb, many times, is the fact that they lack the knowledge and experience to
> set up the airplane correctly so that it flies the way I think a Kolb should
> fly. If you don't know the difference, you will keep on keeping on thinking
> you have the best that Kolb has to offer, when a little tweak here and there
> might make a new airplane out of it.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> mkIII
John H,
You are so right about that ! I really need to get to Sun and Fun, or somewhere
that you are. I would like you to fly my Kolb and give me any suggestions
you have. There are surely things I have overlooked that you would notice immediately.
If I ever find you somewhere, I will fill up the Kolb with gas, give
you the keys, await your flight report and suggestions :)
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250042#250042
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- John- I saw the video of your landing at the Rock House.- If you were
10mph slower, you would have been going backwards!
- By the way- Do you habitually fly right seat?- Leftover from Army day
s?
-
-------------------------
----------------------- Bill
Sullivan
-------------------------
----------------------- Winds
or Locks, Ct.
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Bill S:
Depends on what airplane I am in. My brake pedals are on the right, my
throttle is in the middle. Works good that way.
I fly left seat when the brakes are on the left. Front seat in the
Kolbra and Sling Shot.
In the Army I flew left and right, front and back, depending on what
aircraft and whether I was flying as the Aircraft Commander or Pilot.
john h
mkIII
John- I saw the video of your landing at the Rock House. If
you were 10mph slower, you would have been going backwards!
By the way- Do you habitually fly right seat? Leftover from
Army days?
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks,
Ct.
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Just about the time I'm hitting the sod I prefer a higher stall
speed. -at least 1 MPH higher than the wind on my nose.
That is the time that VGs and flaps (unless you are "Queekdraw" and
retract them at exactly squat time) are no friend.
I flew my MKIII for two years before i even tried flaps. A pleasant
novelty that I have come to appreciate.
BB
On 25, Jun 2009, at 6:06 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> > Zero ground roll is a splat
>>
>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>
>
> Jack H:
>
> Zero ground roll is very attainable.
>
> Did one in my Ultrastar and the MKIII. Both under same circumstances.
>
> Wish John W was still here to verify my landing at Canon City,
> Colorado, in 2004, where I met John to do an attempt on Leadville,
> CO, highest airport in the North American Continent. John landed
> at 1300 with 21 steady and gusts. I landed at 1700 with 38 steady
> and gusts. I hovered to a touch down on a gravel pad between the
> taxiway and the active. John was standing there to catch the wing
> when I touched down. I'm sure we shared this with you all after it
> happened. We were on our way to MV.
>
> The landing I did at the Rock House this year, was done without
> flaps at 50 mph IAS. If I had known the turbulence was going to
> slack off the moment I touched down, I could have used full flaps
> and done another hovering touch down. If you saw John B's video
> clip of my landing, you can see how short my ground roll was
> touching down at 50 mph IAS. I can assure you we had some "real"
> wind that day, that continued for another couple days without let up.
>
> Last year, 2008, John W and I were grounded in Ontario, OR, with 45
> mph winds and gust over 50 mph for three days and nights without
> let up. Normally, we set 25 mph steady as our red line for not flying.
>
> Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a
> lot of difference in surviving the landing or not.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord Photo 2009 |
John.....That is a COOL picture ! That one should be hanging on a wall somewhere!!
chris ambrose
M3X/jab 29.0hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250057#250057
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At 06:00 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
>Think I'll put 3 sets on ,then I can hover.
> G.Aman mk-3c
OK .....we got 3 sets on this one - I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EjsgLXdb8&feature=related
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| Subject: | Re: Another Alvord Photo |
John .....Another cool picture ! Did the bulkhead behind your head cut out alot
of noise from the engine / prop ??
chris ambrose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250061#250061
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At 03:35 PM 6/25/2009, JetPilot wrote:
>Your understanding of this is wrong. You are misapplying a generality
>that applies to slow flying airplanes where the approach speed is very
>close to what its stall speed is. What you do not want is a gust causing
>a loss of airspeed and stall in the airplane...
That's one concern, which I guess is a non issue if you fly your approach
at the same speed. However, if you _do_ use the same approach speed,
doesn't it take longer to bleed off enough speed to set it down
stalled? It's that period of time, close to the ground on a gusty day,
that concerns me.
Don't get me wrong, I find the concept intriguing... and I'd like to fly
the same plane with and without VG's... but not enough to go through the
hassle of mounting them on my plane, and having to remove them and clean up
adhesive residue if I don't want to keep them. As John says, I don't
personally feel the need for them. But if somebody has an UltraStar with
VG's that they're willing to let me fly, I'd love to try it.
-Dana
--
In America, anyone can become president. That's one of the risks you take.
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord Photo 2009 |
> John.....That is a COOL picture ! That one should be hanging on a wall
> somewhere!!
>
> chris ambrose
Thanks, Chris:
I like it also.
Mike Marker is a great photographer, as well as a great airplane builder,
pilot, and adventurer. He is a retired Naval Aviator. He has built 8 or 9
experiementals, still has all of them, and one of them is a Kolb FSII.
I think the way the sun is blasting the windshield is kind of cool.
john h
mkIII
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> OK .....we got 3 sets on this one - I think.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EjsgLXdb8&feature=related
Possum:
Think this guy has VGs on his helmet, just like Buford.
I'd try the helmet VGs but afraid I might get a little light headed.
john h
mkIII - Don't know how I did it without "them"!
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| Subject: | Re: Another Alvord Photo |
> John .....Another cool picture ! Did the bulkhead behind your head cut
out alot of noise from the engine / prop ??
>
> chris ambrose
If it does anything, it probably amplifies the noise. If it was sound
insulated on the back side, and the bottom of the center section was also, I
bet it would cut the racket in half. As it is, it is a Kolb, loud!
john h
mkIII
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| Subject: | Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl |
At 05:41 PM 6/25/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>Well I am back and well after hanging under that 30+ year old Dacron for
>an hr and some minutes. The Bulb I got from Kolb worked just fine, the old
>Cuyuna worked without once sputtering. Whatever we did took care of the
>issues...
Cool! I'd still suggest getting rid of the bulb and adding a plunger
primer. I have become convinced primer bulbs are evil, and will never
again put one on any aircraft (I still have them on my PPG's, but an engine
out in a PPG is generally a non event, and I'll replace them with plungers
when they wear out).
>One more problem though, on anything more than 60% power it just
>powerfully wants to climb, and I am not about to snap one of them
>connecting roads by forcing the canard down, it already looks like its
>under strain, not to mention my arm pushing forward on the stick.
Just be careful. As I'm sure you know, it's easy to exceed Vne in level
flight in a 'Dac, and a depressing number of pilots have died this
way. (Yes, John, I know this isn't the Pterodactyl list, so I say... do
not archive.)
-Dana
--
In America, anyone can become president. That's one of the risks you take.
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord photo 2009 |
I also have jury struts
Downunder
MK111c
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Laird
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009
I have jury struts on my MkIII.
-- Robert
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
Those are streamlined 4130 jury struts. When I was building my
MKIII at Old Kolb in 1991, Homer Kolb asked me to install jury struts
that were in the plans. Although the factory MKIII did not have them
installed, Homer asked me to put them on my MKIII. I had not planned on
using them. He told me if I installed them it would encourage others to
install them. Don't think I have ever seen another Kolb with jury
struts. They did save my left lift strut when I wiped out the landing
gear at Muncho Lake, BC, in 2000. When the gear leg/axle socket failed,
the aircraft dropped down with the lift strut landing on top of the left
main tire. The lift strut would have been bent had the jury strut not
been installed.
john h
mkIII
Nice photo, John. What are those straight lines going
from the wing to the halfway point on the wing struts?
Bill Sullivan
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord photo 2009 |
me too
D Rowe
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Laird
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009
I have jury struts on my MkIII.
-- Robert
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| Subject: | Re: Alvord Photo 2009 |
It , The pic of miss Pfer , is now my desktop background and I think a lot
of we "Kolbers" should use it as such ,- at least for a while !!!!!!!just
out of respect for the "Hauck" and one FINE- KOLB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________
________________________=0AFrom: ces308 <ces308@ldaco.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@
matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:21:38 PM=0ASubject: Kolb-Li
es308@ldaco.com>=0A=0AJohn.....That is a COOL picture ! That one should be
hanging on a wall somewhere!! =0A=0Achris ambrose=0AM3X/jab- 29.0hrs=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/v
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
======0A=0A=0A
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At 05:06 PM 6/25/09 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a lot of
>difference in surviving the landing or not.
>
John,
Say you touch down at 50 mph verses 40 mph, there is an kinetic energy
reduction of 35 percent for the same gross weight.
If one compares landing at 50 mph at 1000 pound gross weight to 40 mph with
500 pound gross weight, the kinetic energy reduction will be 68
percent.
Now compare the 50 mph at 1000 pound gross weight to 30 mph with 500 gross
weight (FireFly), the kinetic energy reduction will be 82 percent.
Given equal piloting abilities, who do you think is most likely to come out
of a botched up landing in the best shape?
Fly safe.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Cuyuna..Lakota Souix word for birdshit or paratrooper. Literal translation
`falls from sky'
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:31 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: cuyunna
I am going to step out in defense of the ole 202 cuyunna engine. I have had
three of them and I want to tell you this: I have never had one go out on
me or fail me because of something it did. It was all ME. I pushed it too
hard, bad fuel, lines, squeeze bulbs, plugs, argh. I have however, had the
supposed good ole rotax stop on me. I lost a crank with no sign of failure
and no real reason, it just seized. One of the little bearings was square I
guess and it went to lunch and took its buddies with them. I have had a
lots of fan belt problems with the rotax but cooling with the 20II was no
problem if you just kept it in its envelope. Never, I repeat, Never try to
outclimb a rotax with a 20II cause it is not the same and wont do it. So, I
guess apples and oranges. If you treat any engine correctly and stay within
its tolerances, you should have good luck with them. We are our worse
enemies. Ted Cowan, original firestar 447, kobra cuyunna, pterodactyl
cuyunna. Slingshot 912UL. By the way, I might have a fix for the rum rum
of the 912. I have to experiment on this concept and let you know. If it
is it, many will appreciate it. It might not be what we all throught it
might be. (hey, sounds like life, huh.)
Message 54
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> Given equal piloting abilities, who do you think is most likely to come
out
> of a botched up landing in the best shape?
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
I don't know, Jack.
Probably be pretty hard to find two pilots with the same piloting abilities.
john h
mkIII
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----- Original Message -----
From: JetPilot
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:25 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you
John H,
What kind of VG's does Larry have ? The only time I have seen
reports that VG's have had little effect is when they have been made at
home, not the exact same size and shape, or when they have been put on
incorrectly. Like I said, as with anything in aviation, they must be
put on to precise tolerances or they wont work very well.
I had intended to stay out of this windmill jousting since it closely
resembles pissing in the wind, but since my "Shackleford designed" VG's
have been maligned not to mention impugned, I have no recourse other
than to reply.
Mine are made of lexan and the reduction in stall is almost 14 MPH.
You may pay someone to make them for you, but thank, you mine work just
fine. I met Joa at a Alvord fly-in and while he is most likely a very
nice man and an smart one as well, he is still a salesman.
John mentioned an incident wherein I "busted my butt" by getting too
slow and low. This unfortunately is true, but the part that he left out
is that it is my belief that if I had not had my "home made VG's" I
would have impacted the ground nose down rather than in a level
attitude. Unfortunately an early model of axle fitting couldn't take the
strain and snapped off, thus burying my gear leg into the ground. I
remained too modest to make a "BRS claim" of a life saving event due to
my "Shackleford VG's". :-)
John's plane is set up to suit his style of flying and his skill
level. Mine with VG's, and big wheels is setup for mine and my country.
My skill level is in no way comparable to John's, I only have about 460
hours in these airplanes, and the VG's help me make up for some of that.
They are by no means miracle workers for your plane, but they will give
you a bit of a forgiving edge. The primary reason that I want them and
need them is that some of the places that I want to land in do require a
short roll out, and it is my fervent hope that if ever I am forced down
in the Sage again, I will be able to keep the shiny side up.
Having said all that, trying to convince John that he needs them is a
waste of time, he doesn't need them. He has never said that they don't
work, only that "he doesn't need them". Roger Hankins has a KXP that he
took the VG's off of after using them for a while. His plane will still
land shorter without than mine will with. Now whether or not that would
still be true if he were flying my plane and I his, but it still remains
that his plane without VG's performs just as well or better than mine,
with them.
Now all of you should keep in mind that opinions are like "anal
orifices", every body has one, not every body wants two of them. :-)
Larry C
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I expect I am the yahoo mentioned in other posts, if you look at my signature you
will see why I am not too bothered by it.
If anyone cares about the opinion of a low time pilot, (only 130 hours flight time)
the reason for me impacting the ground was low airspeed. I was not stalled
and I had good roll control with the ailerons, I was in sink and going too
slow. Just my opinion, but I was there.
I am new to the flying community, in a way.
I find the large number of hostile responses and name calling kind of odd.
I read the purpose of this forum is to promote camaraderie. I don't feel it so
much here. I do like the people I have met in person so far.
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250098#250098
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----- Original Message -----
From: dalewhelan
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:25 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you
<dalewhelan@earthlink.net>
I find the large number of hostile responses and name calling kind of
odd.
I read the purpose of this forum is to promote camaraderie. I don't
feel it so much here. I do like the people I have met in person so far.
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
Hi,
I met you at MV, didn't have much time to get very well acquainted
however. I am having a bit of trouble understanding just what it is that
you are looking for. Actually my perception is that it doesn't take much
to hurt your feelings. I have read every post that you have taken
offence at, and haven't been aware of any hostilities other than yours.
I will agree however that with some on this list there is the tendency
to have trouble with accepting "no thank you, I'll do it my way", but
the only people who generally are met with hostility are the "expert"
types.
Sorry you aren't having fun.
Larry C
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