---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/25/09: 57 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:36 AM - Re: R: VGs (pj.ladd) 2. 04:08 AM - Re: R: VGs (Jack B. Hart) 3. 04:38 AM - Re: R: VGs (Brad Stump) 4. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl (Richard Girard) 5. 05:48 AM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 6. 06:06 AM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 7. 06:08 AM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 8. 07:26 AM - Re: R: VGs (robcannon) 9. 07:45 AM - Re: R: VGs (robcannon) 10. 07:52 AM - Alvord Photo 2009 (John Hauck) 11. 07:58 AM - Another Alvord Photo (John Hauck) 12. 07:59 AM - Re: Alvord photo 2009 (william sullivan) 13. 08:10 AM - Re: Another Alvord photo (william sullivan) 14. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (John Hauck) 15. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Another Alvord photo (John Hauck) 16. 08:48 AM - Alvord 2009 (John Hauck) 17. 08:51 AM - Re: VG's (Arksey@aol.com) 18. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Dana Hague) 19. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (Robert Laird) 20. 12:36 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot) 21. 12:37 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot) 22. 12:38 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot) 23. 12:57 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot) 24. 12:58 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot) 25. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: VG's (pj.ladd) 26. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 27. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (John Hauck) 28. 02:16 PM - Re: R: VGs (JetPilot) 29. 02:27 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot) 30. 02:28 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot) 31. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 32. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl (Ron @ KFHU) 33. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Jack B. Hart) 34. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (John Hauck) 35. 03:05 PM - Re: R: VGs (zeprep251@aol.com) 36. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 37. 03:33 PM - Re: Thank you (JetPilot) 38. 03:43 PM - Re:R:VG's (william sullivan) 39. 03:53 PM - Re: Re:R:VG's (John Hauck) 40. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (robert bean) 41. 05:24 PM - Re: Alvord Photo 2009 (ces308) 42. 05:44 PM - Re: R: VGs (possums) 43. 05:52 PM - Re: Another Alvord Photo (ces308) 44. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Dana Hague) 45. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Alvord Photo 2009 (John Hauck) 46. 06:10 PM - Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 47. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: Another Alvord Photo (John Hauck) 48. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl (Dana Hague) 49. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (Tony Oldman) 50. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Alvord photo 2009 (Denny Rowe) 51. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Alvord Photo 2009 (chris davis) 52. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (Jack B. Hart) 53. 08:19 PM - Re: cuyunna (George Myers) 54. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: R: VGs (John Hauck) 55. 09:14 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (Larry Cottrell) 56. 09:25 PM - Re: Thank you (dalewhelan) 57. 09:51 PM - Re: Re: Thank you (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:01 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs Always impressed with the dramatic improvements in aircraft performance and handling after installation of VGs. >> John, you are fighting a rearguard action but by crackey you are doing it very well. Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:23 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs At 06:50 PM 6/24/09 -0500, you wrote: > > >If I could get a 10 mph reduction in stall speed in ground effect, I could >land at 20 mph. > > John, The only way to find out is to try them. Why depend on others to do the research for you? It only takes about $10 for materials and a few minutes of your time to make them. See "Vortex Generators" at: http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/fireflyindex.html ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:56 AM PST US From: Brad Stump Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs Hi John, To answer some of your questions,I will first throw in a disclaimer.Iam not a 1000 hr or more pilot,just a dumb old country boy who likes to fly. My stall speed prior to vg's was 42mph indicated and 32mph after,there is very possible a + or - a few mph because of all the things that we know that can cause errors. There is not a lot of difference in stall handling before or after,Iam flying a Kolb mk3 and she has a very gentle stall, and no tendency to drop a wing,there never was any violence as reported by some others. In ground effect before vg's in the 42-45mph range the plane would just drop to the runway,after the vg's I can get down into the 32-35mph range and the plane just seems to settle to the runway. I hope this helps someone. > -----Original Message----- > From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com > Sent: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:50:36 -0500 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs > > >> >> My stall speed lowered by 10 mph. > > > Brad S: > > That is an impressive improvement. > > What was your stall speed prior to, and after installation of > VGs? > > At what altitude did you conduct your tests? > > What were the differences in stall characteristics prior to and after > installation of VGs? > > How did the VGs affect speed at your normal cruise power setting? > > Did you test stall in ground effect, before and after? > > What airplane are you flying? > > Would you please expand on your experience flying this airplane before > and > after? > > If I could get a 10 mph reduction in stall speed in ground effect, I > could > land at 20 mph. > > john h > mkIII - Always impressed with the dramatic improvements in aircraft > performance and handling after installation of VGs. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl From: Richard Girard Ron, I know you're flying a minimal aircraft, I had a 'Dactyl cousin for a few years, a Kasperwing. Very simple machine to fly and take care of. That being said, if there is some way you can get that primer bulb out of your fuel system, do it. They're a failure waiting to happen. One put my MkIII on the ground with no warning. I bought three, two boat units and a Harbor Freight siphon set up. The HF unit was dead right out of the box. One boat unit failed almost right out of the package and all it was doing was starting a siphon to drain tanks for winter storage. The last is my siphon and will never get any higher that I can throw it.As for flying, if the 'Dactyl is anything like the Kwing, it has NO crosswind capability, I learned lots of tricks to handle light crosswinds including the Polish runway technique, but the bottom line is that straight into the wind works every time, all else is a guess. Your experience could be different. Rick do not archive On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Ron @ KFHU wrote: > > Well i think I found out one problem, and it had to do with the bulb. It > seemed that the Handy dude at the ranch who forced it into the tube cracked > the intake into the bulb. When I repositioned the bulb and tried to insert > it into its new position the prong just broke off easily. Re-did the entire > fuel line, found out that I had a bulb that Kolb sent me back when I bought > the kit. My buddy who is a good mechanic came and took a look at it. We had > the Carb apart ( I said Bing,, its a Mikuni written right on it) he new it > inside and out cleaned some air input and the needle closed it up. And > tomorrow we shall see if I can get a solid hour out of it. Patched up the > prop, new prop will be in tomorrow too late for the AM flight. > Other than that will see what happens. > > Ron @ KFHU > =============================== > ---- Dana Hague wrote: > > ============ > > At 09:02 AM 6/24/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: > > >I have the bulb above the fuel filter ( the bulb is brand new from > >Aircraft Spruce, the original was rot cracked, plugs are also brand > new)... > > Same here... my original bulb was dry and hard; I replaced it with a brand > new bulb from Aircraft Spruce. The brand new bulb was bad (clogged) out of > the box. It would pass enough fuel for warmup and mid power, and let the > carb bowl fill, but at full power the it couldn't keep up and the engine > would starve for fuel shortly after takeoff. I discovered this the hard > way on my first flight in the plane; fortunately it would make enough power > to get around the pattern and land. I now have a plunger primer and no > squeeze bulb. > > > ...and we did not install it with hose clams at all. I have already > > taken care of that now. I have it installed Fuel Tank, filter, bulb, > > pump, I also have yet to run the motor to check and see if the problem is > > solved. All that stuff happened yesterday. The bubbles start right at the > > fuel filter probably air was getting in that area, and also was another > > bubble stream was getting in around the bulb. I think this will be a none > > issue as I now have clamps there too. > > The point I was making is that the clamps can CAUSE an air leak, since they > don't do a very good job of clamping all the way around small > hoses. Safety wire (wrap around the hose three times, then twist) does a > better job and is lighter as well. > > I would look for a blockage upstream of the first place you see the > bubbles. Places to look are the pickup inside the tank, and any fittings. > > Do you have and EGT and/or CHT gauges on the engine? If so, what do they > say? If not, you should. > > >-Sputtering; On take off it was good all the way to mid power, but no > >sooner I cleared the strip it started bogging down I brought the power > >back and it seemed to have gone away. But every time after that when I > >gave it opened throttle more to get some more altitude it started bogging > >down again. > > Sounds like my experience, except that the rpm's were surging up and down. > > >I never opened a Bing carb before and don't have the manual can you tell > >me about the jetting in a bit more detail. Density Altitude around here is > >around 7-8K this time of year. > > You have a Bing? The Cuyunas originally came with a Mikuni which is a much > better carburetor for these engines. I'm told that lots of people have > trouble getting the engine to run correctly with the Bing. > > The Cuyuna manual (as well as the Mikuni manual) can be downloaded from the > files section of the Cuyuna Yahoo group (I put them there): > > You might get some more useful advice there, too, though it's not a very > active group. > > -Dana > -- > To Be Old And Wise You Must First Be Young And Stupid > > > -- > kugelair.com > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:34 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs > > The only way to find out is to try them. Morning Jack: I have tried VG's, several times. I have also done a side by side flight comparison between my fat old bird and a much lighter MKIII. The results of those flights did not convince me to install VGs on my airplane. This last flight West was interesting. There were times when I could have used a lot more lift. Then there were times when I wished I had spoilers installed on my wings. At the Rock House, in the desert of SE Oregon, we watched our Kolbs attempting to fly and flying while tied down. Then there was the difficult time at Grants, NM, where we were trying to deal with a density altiutude of 9,300 feet, severe turbulence, cross wind, and dust devils, on take off. I don't know if VGs would have helped me at Grants or not. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:50 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs > My stall speed prior to vg's was 42mph indicated and 32mph after,there is very possible a + or - a few mph because of all the things that we know that can cause errors. > In ground effect before vg's in the 42-45mph range the plane would just > drop to the runway,after the vg's I can get down into the 32-35mph range > and the plane just seems to settle to the runway. Brad S: A 10 mph decrease in stall speed is still a very impressive number. In ground effect I get the same flight characteristics as you on the FSII I was flying with VGs. The break at stall was very gentle. Other than that, I could not find any other improvements in flight over a FSII without VGs. My experience with Kolb aircraft indicates they fly as well without as they do with VGs except for the very gentle break on landing. As far as extra steep climbs, steep turns, and great control right through the mush/stall, they all do it without VGs. I have discovered I can make good landings if I stall the airplane closer to the ground. If I stall it a foot above the ground, it will drop a foot. If I don't want to take the chance of dropping in, I can always fly the Kolb to the ground above stall speed. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:38 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs > you are fighting a rearguard action but by crackey you are doing it very > well. > > Pat Patrick: No fight intended. Trying to learn. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:40 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs From: "robcannon" Kolb Mark II, Hks 700 E, 550 lbs empty, 180 lb pilot, 2000'asl. Initial flights with no vg's I was surprized and unhappy with my high stall speed of 38 mph power off. I added vg's as an experiment with low expectations. You should have seen my face when I landed after the first flight with vg's. Ten dollars worth of hardware store flashing and a days messing around and my stall dropped minimum 10 mph. That's right TEN mph ! TEN DOLLARS - TEN MPH. Stall characteristics did not change that much - clean break around 26, but will mush along in full control right down to 26. The advantages here are obvious. The disadvantages are minuscule. Top speed does not seem affected, but my testing would not be very accurate as my plane is easily goes over vne, and low speed is my focus, so I didn't do very scientific testing. I thought washing the wing would be a hassle but the soft bristle brush I use doesnt seem to notice the vg's. If anyone wants to make there own I'll send you a pattern one and instructions. I tested different adhesives and decided upon indoor/outdoor carpet tape from wallmart. It's sticky shit that is never coming off and is much cleaner to use than any liquid adhesive ( just happens to come in a roll the same width as the vg's). I put a rivet in the ones in front of the prop just in case but in hindsite I don't think it was necessary. Try it you'll like it !! Rob Cannon [Laughing] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249950#249950 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs From: "robcannon" Oh yeah, forgot the landing part. I can now land at fifteen mph in ground effect. ............. Just kidding ..... With my 26 mph stall, I cant land this slow as my tail will be too low. I built tall gear legs and I can get down pretty slow (32 - 35) but any slower and the tail hits first. The advantage is a huge safety margin at slow speeds. Theoretically I could fly approaches at 39 mph ( with a 1.5 safety factor), but I fly them at 45 - 50. If I have an engine failure, I can do a 180 at 45-50 and be around quicker and higher. blah,blah,blah, Rob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249952#249952 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Alvord Photo 2009 Mike M accompanied us Kolbers to the Rock House in Oregon last month. Mike is a very accomplished photographer. He took this shot of Miss P'fer doing her thing over the Alvord Desert. Thanks Mike. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:42 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Another Alvord Photo Beautiful blue sky. Another photo by Mark M. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:25 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009 - Nice photo, John.- What are those straight lines going from the wing to the halfway point on the wing struts? - ------------------------- ----------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ----------------- FS 447 -- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:12 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Another Alvord photo - And an even better one!- What is the thing hanging down between the l anding gear, just below the seat? - ------------------------- ---------------- Bill Sullivan ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:10 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009 Those are streamlined 4130 jury struts. When I was building my MKIII at Old Kolb in 1991, Homer Kolb asked me to install jury struts that were in the plans. Although the factory MKIII did not have them installed, Homer asked me to put them on my MKIII. I had not planned on using them. He told me if I installed them it would encourage others to install them. Don't think I have ever seen another Kolb with jury struts. They did save my left lift strut when I wiped out the landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC, in 2000. When the gear leg/axle socket failed, the aircraft dropped down with the lift strut landing on top of the left main tire. The lift strut would have been bent had the jury strut not been installed. john h mkIII Nice photo, John. What are those straight lines going from the wing to the halfway point on the wing struts? Bill Sullivan ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:08 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Another Alvord photo Bill S: That is the landing light. It is a KC off road driving light, 100w halogen. Works well and is much more reliable than the old GE H4095 sealed beam, which were good for about 10 hours or less. My MKIII is certified for night flight. I used to do a lot of night flying early on, but do not fly at night now unless I get caught out and it gets dark on me. My night system is not redundant. Murphy loves that and will rear his ugly head the first time I get a little over confident. john h mkIII And an even better one! What is the thing hanging down between the landing gear, just below the seat? Bill Sullivan ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:07 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Alvord 2009 An unforgetable flight with my friends to the Alvord and beyond. Looking forward to doing it again next year. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:53 AM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: RE: VG's I have discovered I can make good landings if I stall the airplane closer to the ground. If I stall it a foot above the ground, it will drop a foot. If I don't want to take the chance of dropping in, I can always fly the Kolb to the ground above stall speed. john h mkIII I like this statement by John H, while I have never flown a kolb with vg's I have experenced the drop at landing and I think a few times more than a foot from the ground...I now fly the plane onto the ground and have not had any drops like before....It is interesting because I have a friend In PA that I talked into getting a Kolb firestar ll, he likes it and has not had a problem with landing...he taught himself to fly quite a few years ago in ultra lights...he is now working on his sport license....but I ask him how he lands the plane and he tells me that he wheel lands it....he fly's it on and keeps the tail off the ground for a bit and it seems to be natural for him, works good for him and no bad landings..us old time pilots from general aviation seem to have trouble with the drop that John describes and I think it goes back to our training to do full stall landings. I have not put VG's on my firestar and if i can land it without the bad drop I do not think I will....I think I am improving with my landings..hope so...JimSwan do not archive JIM SWAN firestar ll, 503, N663S Eaton Rapids, Mi. 48827 PH 517-663-8488 runway 2300' E & W (42-28.58N 084-44.69 W ) **************Shop Popular Dell Laptops now starting at $349! bleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215910283%3B38350812%3Ba) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:45 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs At 10:26 AM 6/25/2009, robcannon wrote: >...my stall dropped minimum 10 mph.... The disadvantages are minuscule... Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at 25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower that flyable threshold at all. -Dana -- Question Authority and the authorities will question you! ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009 From: Robert Laird I have jury struts on my MkIII. -- Robert On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM, John Hauck wrote: > Those are streamlined 4130 jury struts. When I was building my MKIII at > Old Kolb in 1991, Homer Kolb asked me to install jury struts that were in > the plans. Although the factory MKIII did not have them installed, Homer > asked me to put them on my MKIII. I had not planned on using them. He told > me if I installed them it would encourage others to install them. Don't > think I have ever seen another Kolb with jury struts. They did save my left > lift strut when I wiped out the landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC, in 2000. > When the gear leg/axle socket failed, the aircraft dropped down with the > lift strut landing on top of the left main tire. The lift strut would have > been bent had the jury strut not been installed. > > john h > mkIII > > > Nice photo, John. What are those straight lines going from the wing > to the halfway point on the wing struts? > > Bill Sullivan > > > ** > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs From: "JetPilot" Dana wrote: > At 10:26 AM 6/25/2009, robcannon wrote: > > > ...my stall dropped minimum 10 mph.... The disadvantages are minuscule... > > > > > > Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at > 25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the > wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual > rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive > to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower > that flyable threshold at all. > > -Dana > > Dana, > > Your understanding of this is wrong. What you do not want is a gust causing a loss of airspeed and stall in the airplane. VG's expand your flying envalope and increase your safety margain aginst gust induced stall. Lets take a Firestar, say it stalls at 30 MPH. If you approach at 40 MPH, a 10 MPH gust could place you at the stall speed. With the same firestar with VG's, if you stall at 22 MPH with VG's, a 10 MPH gust would not cause a stall, it would take an 18 MPH gust to put you at stall speed. This equals increased safety. > > You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The danger is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low approach speed. The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches slow if you are in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your protection against gust induced stalls. > > Mike > > > > > -- > Question Authority and the authorities will question you! -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250006#250006 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:22 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs From: "JetPilot" Dana wrote: > At 10:26 AM 6/25/2009, robcannon wrote: > > > ...my stall dropped minimum 10 mph.... The disadvantages are minuscule... > > > > > > Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at > 25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the > wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual > rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive > to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower > that flyable threshold at all. > > -Dana > > Dana, > > Your understanding of this is wrong. You are misapplying a generality that applies to slow flying airplanes where the approach speed is very close to what its stall speed is. What you do not want is a gust causing a loss of airspeed and stall in the airplane. VG's expand your flying envelope and increase your safety margin against gust induced stall. Lets take a Firestar, say it stalls at 30 MPH. If you approach at 40 MPH, a 10 MPH gust could place you at the stall speed. With the same Firestar with VG's, if you stall at 22 MPH with VG's, a 10 MPH gust would not cause a stall, it would take an 18 MPH gust to put you at stall speed. This equals increased safety. > > You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The danger is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low approach speed. The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches slow if you are in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your protection against gust induced stalls. > > Mike > > > > > > -- > Question Authority and the authorities will question you! -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250007#250007 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:20 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs From: "JetPilot" Dana wrote: > > > Perhaps... but one thing concerns me. My UltraStar supposedly stalls at > 25mph (it's 30mph indicated). It gets risky to fly an airplane when the > wind is a significant fraction of your stall speed (one half is the usual > rule of thumb). As a PPG pilot also, you can imagine I'm quite sensitive > to this. As it is, I hesitate to fly on breezy days; I'd hate to lower > that flyable threshold at all. > > -Dana > Dana, Your understanding of this is wrong. You are misapplying a generality that applies to slow flying airplanes where the approach speed is very close to what its stall speed is. What you do not want is a gust causing a loss of airspeed and stall in the airplane. VG's expand your flying envelope and increase your safety margin against gust induced stall. Lets take a Firestar, say it stalls at 30 MPH. If you approach at 40 MPH, a 10 MPH gust could place you at the stall speed. With the same Firestar with VG's, if you stall at 22 MPH with VG's, a 10 MPH gust would not cause a stall, it would take an 18 MPH gust to put you at stall speed. This equals increased safety. You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The danger is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low approach speed. The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches slow if you are in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your protection against gust induced stalls. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250008#250008 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:53 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you From: "JetPilot" John Hauck wrote: > > > Still curious how Mike B knew VG's would have saved the ship. > > john h > mkIII John, I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without VG's. Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes performance but a SMALL amount, not by a lot. VG's have increased my performance by more than this amount. I have done flight tests, and even posted videos of my plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same circumstances described in Dales accident. There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can not even com close to landing power off at the speeds I can. People that have flown both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles and lands. They describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with power off at slower speeds, while mine greases right on. We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the amount of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have most definitely made the difference in this case. Dale, You did not read my post very well, I talked about " MUSH " and how the stall speed was not the best part of VG"s... Elimination of the mush and reduced response at slower speeds is probably the best part of VG"s. I stated this very clearly. I have posted this many times in the past before your accident. Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on how to make your Kolb perform better at low speeds. You can either try VG's for yourself, or ignore the evidence. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250010#250010 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you From: "JetPilot" John Hauck wrote: > > > Still curious how Mike B knew VG's would have saved the ship. > > john h > mkIII John, I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without VG's. Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes performance but a SMALL amount, not by a lot. VG's have increased my performance by more than this amount. I have done flight tests, and even posted videos of my plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same circumstances described in Dales accident. There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can not even com close to landing power off at the speeds I can. People that have flown both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles and lands. They describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with power off at slower speeds, while mine greases right on. We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the amount of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have most definitely made the difference in this case. Dale, You did not read my post very well, I talked about " MUSH " and how the stall speed was not the best part of VG"s... Elimination of the mush and reduced response at slower speeds is probably the best part of VG"s. I stated this very clearly. I have posted this many times in the past before your accident. If you do put on VG's, the design and placement of VG's is CRITICAL to them working well. Just cutting some aluminum and placing them where it " Looks Right " does not cut it. Spend the 100 bucks and get them from and follow their directions exactly. www.landshorter.com Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on how to make your Kolb perform better at low speeds. You can either try VG's for yourself, or ignore the evidence. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250011#250011 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:05 PM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: VG's I have not put VG's on my firestar and if i can land it without the bad drop I do not think I will....I think I am improving with my landings..>> Hi, `The drop` is something all planes do , not only Kolbs. Slow down to land, stall, drop! The trick is to stall as close to the ground as possible. The closer you are, the smaller `the drop`. VG`s merely enable you to go more slowly before you stall. If you do it 10ft up they will be no help whatever. Fitting VG`s does not make you a better pilot, merely extends the planes flying envelope a bit. Good luck Pat ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:24 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs > You have taken something that is generally true, and misapplied it. The danger is when an airplane stalls very slow, and is ALSO have a very low approach speed. The VG's do not mean that you have to fly your approaches slow if you are in windy weather. VG's actually INCREASE safety and your protection against gust induced stalls. > > Mike Mike B: So...I increase my approach speed 10 to 15 mph and I am good to go without VGs. I'm not concerned over the small amount of difference in speed between "with and without VGs" when I stall at 30 mph IAS in ground effect. Even if I stalled at 40 mph in ground effect, I still would not be concerned about my approach speeds of 50 to 60 mph IAS. I'm very conservative when it comes to stall and approach speeds. I usually shoot my approaches at 50 to 60 mph IAS, even on my short 750 ft strip. VGs aren't going to do a whole lot to improve safety. We are talking of very slow speeds with and without. Most average pilots should be able to adjust a couple mph. What makes landing with zero ground roll so important? john h MKIII ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:32 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you > I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without VG's. Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes performance but a SMALL amount, not by a lot. VG's have increased my performance by more than this amount. I have done flight tests, and even posted videos of my plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same circumstances described in Dales accident. > There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can > not even com close to landing power off at the speeds I can. People that > have flown both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles > and lands. They describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with > power off at slower speeds, while mine greases right on. > We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the > amount of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have > most definitely made the difference in this case. > Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on > how to make your Kolb perform better at low speeds. You can either try > VG's for yourself, or ignore the evidence. > > Mike Mike B: I don't agree with anything referenced above. The only thing that would have helped Dale W keep from busting his and his girl friend's butts would have been more airspeed. Larry Cottrell could probably add some actual experience information he gained by stalling his FSII equipped with VGs. This is also the airplane that I have flown several times to see how the VGs perform. Larry also busted his butt when he got too slow, too close to the ground, with the "devices". ;-) If you stall the airplane close to the ground, with or without VGs, you are going to bend and/or break something. I have well over 6,000 documented landings, in my log book, in all kinds of conditions on my mkIII alone. Most of them have been power off right to the ground, full flaps, full stall. All the other mkIII's I have flown, land the same way. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:40 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs From: "JetPilot" John H, My ground roll is most assuredly longer than yours is, even with VG's.. I need bigger brakes !!! Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250020#250020 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:50 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you From: "JetPilot" John H, What kind of VG's does Larry have ? The only time I have seen reports that VG's have had little effect is when they have been made at home, not the exact same size and shape, or when they have been put on incorrectly. Like I said, as with anything in aviation, they must be put on to precise tolerances or they wont work very well. Your experience in a Kolb may be why you think VG's are not needed. I am sure you can out fly anyone here, and I think your skill level is to the point that you don't even notice things that would be difficult for most others. You could probably do a very difficult landing in a Kolb with a cup of coffee in one hand while carrying on a casual conversation, while others would bend the gear. Where VG's would help most others, you would compensate with skill, I just have to guess that is why you don't really notice the difference. I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed VG's that are put on exactly like they should be. I would be very interested to see what you think. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250025#250025 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:22 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you From: "JetPilot" John H, What kind of VG's does Larry have ? The only time I have seen reports that VG's have had little effect is when they have been made at home, not the exact same size and shape, or when they have been put on incorrectly. Like I said, as with anything in aviation, they must be put on to precise tolerances or they wont work very well. Your experience in a Kolb may be why you think VG's are not needed. I am sure you can out fly anyone here, and I think your skill level is to the point that you don't even notice things that would be difficult for most others. You could probably do a very difficult landing in a Kolb with a cup of coffee in one hand while carrying on a casual conversation, while others would bend the gear. Where VG's would help most others, you would compensate with skill, I just have to guess that is why you don't really notice the difference. I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed VG's that are put on exactly like they should be. I would be very interested to see what you think. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250026#250026 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:43 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs > My ground roll is most assuredly longer than yours is, even with VG's.. I need bigger brakes !!! > > Mike Mike B: Get some good MATCO's with 3/4" axles and tapered roller bearings. I have had mine since I wiped off the main gear 9 years ago next week. In fact, they are so good they slow the mkIII down before touch down. hehehe john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:52 PM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl Well I am back and well after hanging under that 30+ year old Dacron for an hr and some minutes. The Bulb I got from Kolb worked just fine, the old Cuyuna worked without once sputtering. Whatever we did took care of the issues. Towards the end I actually started feeling comfortable. Landings have never been a problem in this machine, it lands so slow that if I have too I would land it crosswise or any angle needed on the runway or intersection of runways. The big problem was, and may still be the time table I had to operate under. I got the job two weeks ago and in that time I had to find an ultralight and get it ready for the job. I honestly lost 5 pounds in that time to get it ready from a collection parts in sand dust and rubbish it was under to make it fly, in some on border Ranch away from paved roads. It still looks like hell but now it flies. I have never seen a pterodactyl before so this was some education. I did modify the two front sticking posts holding the canard by placing a brace between them after the first test hop showed them sorta meandering around, amazing that people fly them without those. One more problem though, on anything more than 60% power it just powerfully wants to climb, and I am not about to snap one of them connecting roads by forcing the canard down, it already looks like its under strain, not to mention my arm pushing forward on the stick. I am guessing the motor is too low and thus pendulum the whole contraption up with any type of power. ======================================== ---- Richard Girard wrote: ============ Ron, I know you're flying a minimal aircraft, I had a 'Dactyl cousin for a few years, a Kasperwing. Very simple machine to fly and take care of. That being said, if there is some way you can get that primer bulb out of your fuel system, do it. They're a failure waiting to happen. One put my MkIII on the ground with no warning. I bought three, two boat units and a Harbor Freight siphon set up. The HF unit was dead right out of the box. One boat unit failed almost right out of the package and all it was doing was starting a siphon to drain tanks for winter storage. The last is my siphon and will never get any higher that I can throw it.As for flying, if the 'Dactyl is anything like the Kwing, it has NO crosswind capability, I learned lots of tricks to handle light crosswinds including the Polish runway technique, but the bottom line is that straight into the wind works every time, all else is a guess. Your experience could be different. Rick do not archive On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Ron @ KFHU wrote: > > Well i think I found out one problem, and it had to do with the bulb. It > seemed that the Handy dude at the ranch who forced it into the tube cracked > the intake into the bulb. When I repositioned the bulb and tried to insert > it into its new position the prong just broke off easily. Re-did the entire > fuel line, found out that I had a bulb that Kolb sent me back when I bought > the kit. My buddy who is a good mechanic came and took a look at it. We had > the Carb apart ( I said Bing,, its a Mikuni written right on it) he new it > inside and out cleaned some air input and the needle closed it up. And > tomorrow we shall see if I can get a solid hour out of it. Patched up the > prop, new prop will be in tomorrow too late for the AM flight. > Other than that will see what happens. > > Ron @ KFHU > =============================== > ---- Dana Hague wrote: > > ============ > > At 09:02 AM 6/24/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: > > >I have the bulb above the fuel filter ( the bulb is brand new from > >Aircraft Spruce, the original was rot cracked, plugs are also brand > new)... > > Same here... my original bulb was dry and hard; I replaced it with a brand > new bulb from Aircraft Spruce. The brand new bulb was bad (clogged) out of > the box. It would pass enough fuel for warmup and mid power, and let the > carb bowl fill, but at full power the it couldn't keep up and the engine > would starve for fuel shortly after takeoff. I discovered this the hard > way on my first flight in the plane; fortunately it would make enough power > to get around the pattern and land. I now have a plunger primer and no > squeeze bulb. > > > ...and we did not install it with hose clams at all. I have already > > taken care of that now. I have it installed Fuel Tank, filter, bulb, > > pump, I also have yet to run the motor to check and see if the problem is > > solved. All that stuff happened yesterday. The bubbles start right at the > > fuel filter probably air was getting in that area, and also was another > > bubble stream was getting in around the bulb. I think this will be a none > > issue as I now have clamps there too. > > The point I was making is that the clamps can CAUSE an air leak, since they > don't do a very good job of clamping all the way around small > hoses. Safety wire (wrap around the hose three times, then twist) does a > better job and is lighter as well. > > I would look for a blockage upstream of the first place you see the > bubbles. Places to look are the pickup inside the tank, and any fittings. > > Do you have and EGT and/or CHT gauges on the engine? If so, what do they > say? If not, you should. > > >-Sputtering; On take off it was good all the way to mid power, but no > >sooner I cleared the strip it started bogging down I brought the power > >back and it seemed to have gone away. But every time after that when I > >gave it opened throttle more to get some more altitude it started bogging > >down again. > > Sounds like my experience, except that the rpm's were surging up and down. > > >I never opened a Bing carb before and don't have the manual can you tell > >me about the jetting in a bit more detail. Density Altitude around here is > >around 7-8K this time of year. > > You have a Bing? The Cuyunas originally came with a Mikuni which is a much > better carburetor for these engines. I'm told that lots of people have > trouble getting the engine to run correctly with the Bing. > > The Cuyuna manual (as well as the Mikuni manual) can be downloaded from the > files section of the Cuyuna Yahoo group (I put them there): > > You might get some more useful advice there, too, though it's not a very > active group. > > -Dana > -- > To Be Old And Wise You Must First Be Young And Stupid > > > -- > kugelair.com > > -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:24 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs At 03:24 PM 6/25/09 -0500, you wrote: > >What makes landing with zero ground roll so important? > John, Zero ground roll is a splat, but it what is important is a low energy landing. Where this is useful is when you are landing on an unfamiliar landing area. The slower you can fly the plane at touch down the less likely you are going to bend something or tear out a leg socket. Why risk the plane? This does not rule out the use of a high energy approach to landing. Also, this is why it is important to learn to three point. VG's will knock the energy down by 5 to 10 mph. In this case it can make the difference of flying or trucking it home. I have done both and flying is much more fun. Fly safe. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:55 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you > I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed VG's that are put on exactly like they should be. I would be very interested to see what you think. > > Mike Mike B: Maybe I'll have a chance to take you flying in my mkIII, or your mkIII, or both. That would be a good comparison, both. Kolbs are easy to fly. Very forgiving, as long as you stay above stall speed when close to the ground. All my flight time since I retired as a Army helicopter pilot and taught myself to fly my Ultrastar (my solo fixed wing flight in 1984), has been in Kolbs, with the exception of about 20 hours in a C 172, 19 years ago, to get my private ticket to fly my mkIII, and a few hours in Bert Howland's personal Honey Bee in 1989, 20 years ago. You might say I have specialized in building and flying Kolbs. I still fly mine because I haven't found anything to replace it with that would be an improvement on my style of flying. I'm pretty sure I have learned a few things about these little airplanes along the way, but not any more than any other pilot would in the same circumstances. One thing that I have found out, when I occassionally fly someone else's Kolb, many times, is the fact that they lack the knowledge and experience to set up the airplane correctly so that it flies the way I think a Kolb should fly. If you don't know the difference, you will keep on keeping on thinking you have the best that Kolb has to offer, when a little tweak here and there might make a new airplane out of it. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs From: zeprep251@aol.com Think I'll put 3 sets on ,then I can hover. ?????????????? G.Aman mk-3c -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Hart Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs At 06:50 PM 6/24/09 -0500, you wrote: > > >If I could get a 10 mph reduction in stall speed in ground effect, I could >land at 20 mph. > > John, The only way to find out is to try them. Why depend on others to do the research for you? It only takes about $10 for materials and a few minutes of your time to make them. See "Vortex Generators" at: http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/fireflyindex.html ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:12 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs > Zero ground roll is a splat > > Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack H: Zero ground roll is very attainable. Did one in my Ultrastar and the MKIII. Both under same circumstances. Wish John W was still here to verify my landing at Canon City, Colorado, in 2004, where I met John to do an attempt on Leadville, CO, highest airport in the North American Continent. John landed at 1300 with 21 steady and gusts. I landed at 1700 with 38 steady and gusts. I hovered to a touch down on a gravel pad between the taxiway and the active. John was standing there to catch the wing when I touched down. I'm sure we shared this with you all after it happened. We were on our way to MV. The landing I did at the Rock House this year, was done without flaps at 50 mph IAS. If I had known the turbulence was going to slack off the moment I touched down, I could have used full flaps and done another hovering touch down. If you saw John B's video clip of my landing, you can see how short my ground roll was touching down at 50 mph IAS. I can assure you we had some "real" wind that day, that continued for another couple days without let up. Last year, 2008, John W and I were grounded in Ontario, OR, with 45 mph winds and gust over 50 mph for three days and nights without let up. Normally, we set 25 mph steady as our red line for not flying. Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a lot of difference in surviving the landing or not. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:12 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you From: "JetPilot" John Hauck wrote: > > > One thing that I have found out, when I occassionally fly someone else's > Kolb, many times, is the fact that they lack the knowledge and experience to > set up the airplane correctly so that it flies the way I think a Kolb should > fly. If you don't know the difference, you will keep on keeping on thinking > you have the best that Kolb has to offer, when a little tweak here and there > might make a new airplane out of it. > > Take care, > > john h > mkIII John H, You are so right about that ! I really need to get to Sun and Fun, or somewhere that you are. I would like you to fly my Kolb and give me any suggestions you have. There are surely things I have overlooked that you would notice immediately. If I ever find you somewhere, I will fill up the Kolb with gas, give you the keys, await your flight report and suggestions :) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250042#250042 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:51 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re:R:VG's - John- I saw the video of your landing at the Rock House.- If you were 10mph slower, you would have been going backwards! - By the way- Do you habitually fly right seat?- Leftover from Army day s? - ------------------------- ----------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ----------------------- Winds or Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:48 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re:R:VG's Bill S: Depends on what airplane I am in. My brake pedals are on the right, my throttle is in the middle. Works good that way. I fly left seat when the brakes are on the left. Front seat in the Kolbra and Sling Shot. In the Army I flew left and right, front and back, depending on what aircraft and whether I was flying as the Aircraft Commander or Pilot. john h mkIII John- I saw the video of your landing at the Rock House. If you were 10mph slower, you would have been going backwards! By the way- Do you habitually fly right seat? Leftover from Army days? Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:48 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs Just about the time I'm hitting the sod I prefer a higher stall speed. -at least 1 MPH higher than the wind on my nose. That is the time that VGs and flaps (unless you are "Queekdraw" and retract them at exactly squat time) are no friend. I flew my MKIII for two years before i even tried flaps. A pleasant novelty that I have come to appreciate. BB On 25, Jun 2009, at 6:06 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > Zero ground roll is a splat >> >> Jack B. Hart FF004 > > > Jack H: > > Zero ground roll is very attainable. > > Did one in my Ultrastar and the MKIII. Both under same circumstances. > > Wish John W was still here to verify my landing at Canon City, > Colorado, in 2004, where I met John to do an attempt on Leadville, > CO, highest airport in the North American Continent. John landed > at 1300 with 21 steady and gusts. I landed at 1700 with 38 steady > and gusts. I hovered to a touch down on a gravel pad between the > taxiway and the active. John was standing there to catch the wing > when I touched down. I'm sure we shared this with you all after it > happened. We were on our way to MV. > > The landing I did at the Rock House this year, was done without > flaps at 50 mph IAS. If I had known the turbulence was going to > slack off the moment I touched down, I could have used full flaps > and done another hovering touch down. If you saw John B's video > clip of my landing, you can see how short my ground roll was > touching down at 50 mph IAS. I can assure you we had some "real" > wind that day, that continued for another couple days without let up. > > Last year, 2008, John W and I were grounded in Ontario, OR, with 45 > mph winds and gust over 50 mph for three days and nights without > let up. Normally, we set 25 mph steady as our red line for not flying. > > Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a > lot of difference in surviving the landing or not. > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:08 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord Photo 2009 From: "ces308" John.....That is a COOL picture ! That one should be hanging on a wall somewhere!! chris ambrose M3X/jab 29.0hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250057#250057 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:18 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs At 06:00 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote: >Think I'll put 3 sets on ,then I can hover. > G.Aman mk-3c OK .....we got 3 sets on this one - I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EjsgLXdb8&feature=related ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Another Alvord Photo From: "ces308" John .....Another cool picture ! Did the bulkhead behind your head cut out alot of noise from the engine / prop ?? chris ambrose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250061#250061 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:37 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs At 03:35 PM 6/25/2009, JetPilot wrote: >Your understanding of this is wrong. You are misapplying a generality >that applies to slow flying airplanes where the approach speed is very >close to what its stall speed is. What you do not want is a gust causing >a loss of airspeed and stall in the airplane... That's one concern, which I guess is a non issue if you fly your approach at the same speed. However, if you _do_ use the same approach speed, doesn't it take longer to bleed off enough speed to set it down stalled? It's that period of time, close to the ground on a gusty day, that concerns me. Don't get me wrong, I find the concept intriguing... and I'd like to fly the same plane with and without VG's... but not enough to go through the hassle of mounting them on my plane, and having to remove them and clean up adhesive residue if I don't want to keep them. As John says, I don't personally feel the need for them. But if somebody has an UltraStar with VG's that they're willing to let me fly, I'd love to try it. -Dana -- In America, anyone can become president. That's one of the risks you take. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:30 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord Photo 2009 > John.....That is a COOL picture ! That one should be hanging on a wall > somewhere!! > > chris ambrose Thanks, Chris: I like it also. Mike Marker is a great photographer, as well as a great airplane builder, pilot, and adventurer. He is a retired Naval Aviator. He has built 8 or 9 experiementals, still has all of them, and one of them is a Kolb FSII. I think the way the sun is blasting the windshield is kind of cool. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:27 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: R: VGs > OK .....we got 3 sets on this one - I think. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EjsgLXdb8&feature=related Possum: Think this guy has VGs on his helmet, just like Buford. I'd try the helmet VGs but afraid I might get a little light headed. john h mkIII - Don't know how I did it without "them"! ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:35 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Another Alvord Photo > John .....Another cool picture ! Did the bulkhead behind your head cut out alot of noise from the engine / prop ?? > > chris ambrose If it does anything, it probably amplifies the noise. If it was sound insulated on the back side, and the bottom of the center section was also, I bet it would cut the racket in half. As it is, it is a Kolb, loud! john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:40 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cayuna 430 and Pterodactyl At 05:41 PM 6/25/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: >Well I am back and well after hanging under that 30+ year old Dacron for >an hr and some minutes. The Bulb I got from Kolb worked just fine, the old >Cuyuna worked without once sputtering. Whatever we did took care of the >issues... Cool! I'd still suggest getting rid of the bulb and adding a plunger primer. I have become convinced primer bulbs are evil, and will never again put one on any aircraft (I still have them on my PPG's, but an engine out in a PPG is generally a non event, and I'll replace them with plungers when they wear out). >One more problem though, on anything more than 60% power it just >powerfully wants to climb, and I am not about to snap one of them >connecting roads by forcing the canard down, it already looks like its >under strain, not to mention my arm pushing forward on the stick. Just be careful. As I'm sure you know, it's easy to exceed Vne in level flight in a 'Dac, and a depressing number of pilots have died this way. (Yes, John, I know this isn't the Pterodactyl list, so I say... do not archive.) -Dana -- In America, anyone can become president. That's one of the risks you take. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:08 PM PST US From: "Tony Oldman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009 I also have jury struts Downunder MK111c ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Laird To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 6:54 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009 I have jury struts on my MkIII. -- Robert On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM, John Hauck wrote: Those are streamlined 4130 jury struts. When I was building my MKIII at Old Kolb in 1991, Homer Kolb asked me to install jury struts that were in the plans. Although the factory MKIII did not have them installed, Homer asked me to put them on my MKIII. I had not planned on using them. He told me if I installed them it would encourage others to install them. Don't think I have ever seen another Kolb with jury struts. They did save my left lift strut when I wiped out the landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC, in 2000. When the gear leg/axle socket failed, the aircraft dropped down with the lift strut landing on top of the left main tire. The lift strut would have been bent had the jury strut not been installed. john h mkIII Nice photo, John. What are those straight lines going from the wing to the halfway point on the wing struts? Bill Sullivan get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:27 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009 me too D Rowe ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Laird To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord photo 2009 I have jury struts on my MkIII. -- Robert ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:20 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Alvord Photo 2009 It , The pic of miss Pfer , is now my desktop background and I think a lot of we "Kolbers" should use it as such ,- at least for a while !!!!!!!just out of respect for the "Hauck" and one FINE- KOLB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________ ________________________=0AFrom: ces308 =0ATo: kolb-list@ matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:21:38 PM=0ASubject: Kolb-Li es308@ldaco.com>=0A=0AJohn.....That is a COOL picture ! That one should be hanging on a wall somewhere!! =0A=0Achris ambrose=0AM3X/jab- 29.0hrs=0A =0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/v - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ======0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:27 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs At 05:06 PM 6/25/09 -0500, you wrote: > > >Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a lot of >difference in surviving the landing or not. > John, Say you touch down at 50 mph verses 40 mph, there is an kinetic energy reduction of 35 percent for the same gross weight. If one compares landing at 50 mph at 1000 pound gross weight to 40 mph with 500 pound gross weight, the kinetic energy reduction will be 68 percent. Now compare the 50 mph at 1000 pound gross weight to 30 mph with 500 gross weight (FireFly), the kinetic energy reduction will be 82 percent. Given equal piloting abilities, who do you think is most likely to come out of a botched up landing in the best shape? Fly safe. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:51 PM PST US From: "George Myers" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: cuyunna Cuyuna..Lakota Souix word for birdshit or paratrooper. Literal translation `falls from sky' Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:31 AM Subject: Kolb-List: cuyunna I am going to step out in defense of the ole 202 cuyunna engine. I have had three of them and I want to tell you this: I have never had one go out on me or fail me because of something it did. It was all ME. I pushed it too hard, bad fuel, lines, squeeze bulbs, plugs, argh. I have however, had the supposed good ole rotax stop on me. I lost a crank with no sign of failure and no real reason, it just seized. One of the little bearings was square I guess and it went to lunch and took its buddies with them. I have had a lots of fan belt problems with the rotax but cooling with the 20II was no problem if you just kept it in its envelope. Never, I repeat, Never try to outclimb a rotax with a 20II cause it is not the same and wont do it. So, I guess apples and oranges. If you treat any engine correctly and stay within its tolerances, you should have good luck with them. We are our worse enemies. Ted Cowan, original firestar 447, kobra cuyunna, pterodactyl cuyunna. Slingshot 912UL. By the way, I might have a fix for the rum rum of the 912. I have to experiment on this concept and let you know. If it is it, many will appreciate it. It might not be what we all throught it might be. (hey, sounds like life, huh.) ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:14 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: R: VGs > Given equal piloting abilities, who do you think is most likely to come out > of a botched up landing in the best shape? > > Jack B. Hart FF004 I don't know, Jack. Probably be pretty hard to find two pilots with the same piloting abilities. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:27 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you ----- Original Message ----- From: JetPilot To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:25 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you John H, What kind of VG's does Larry have ? The only time I have seen reports that VG's have had little effect is when they have been made at home, not the exact same size and shape, or when they have been put on incorrectly. Like I said, as with anything in aviation, they must be put on to precise tolerances or they wont work very well. I had intended to stay out of this windmill jousting since it closely resembles pissing in the wind, but since my "Shackleford designed" VG's have been maligned not to mention impugned, I have no recourse other than to reply. Mine are made of lexan and the reduction in stall is almost 14 MPH. You may pay someone to make them for you, but thank, you mine work just fine. I met Joa at a Alvord fly-in and while he is most likely a very nice man and an smart one as well, he is still a salesman. John mentioned an incident wherein I "busted my butt" by getting too slow and low. This unfortunately is true, but the part that he left out is that it is my belief that if I had not had my "home made VG's" I would have impacted the ground nose down rather than in a level attitude. Unfortunately an early model of axle fitting couldn't take the strain and snapped off, thus burying my gear leg into the ground. I remained too modest to make a "BRS claim" of a life saving event due to my "Shackleford VG's". :-) John's plane is set up to suit his style of flying and his skill level. Mine with VG's, and big wheels is setup for mine and my country. My skill level is in no way comparable to John's, I only have about 460 hours in these airplanes, and the VG's help me make up for some of that. They are by no means miracle workers for your plane, but they will give you a bit of a forgiving edge. The primary reason that I want them and need them is that some of the places that I want to land in do require a short roll out, and it is my fervent hope that if ever I am forced down in the Sage again, I will be able to keep the shiny side up. Having said all that, trying to convince John that he needs them is a waste of time, he doesn't need them. He has never said that they don't work, only that "he doesn't need them". Roger Hankins has a KXP that he took the VG's off of after using them for a while. His plane will still land shorter without than mine will with. Now whether or not that would still be true if he were flying my plane and I his, but it still remains that his plane without VG's performs just as well or better than mine, with them. Now all of you should keep in mind that opinions are like "anal orifices", every body has one, not every body wants two of them. :-) Larry C ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you From: "dalewhelan" I expect I am the yahoo mentioned in other posts, if you look at my signature you will see why I am not too bothered by it. If anyone cares about the opinion of a low time pilot, (only 130 hours flight time) the reason for me impacting the ground was low airspeed. I was not stalled and I had good roll control with the ailerons, I was in sink and going too slow. Just my opinion, but I was there. I am new to the flying community, in a way. I find the large number of hostile responses and name calling kind of odd. I read the purpose of this forum is to promote camaraderie. I don't feel it so much here. I do like the people I have met in person so far. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250098#250098 ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:24 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you ----- Original Message ----- From: dalewhelan To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:25 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Thank you I find the large number of hostile responses and name calling kind of odd. I read the purpose of this forum is to promote camaraderie. I don't feel it so much here. I do like the people I have met in person so far. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Hi, I met you at MV, didn't have much time to get very well acquainted however. I am having a bit of trouble understanding just what it is that you are looking for. Actually my perception is that it doesn't take much to hurt your feelings. I have read every post that you have taken offence at, and haven't been aware of any hostilities other than yours. I will agree however that with some on this list there is the tendency to have trouble with accepting "no thank you, I'll do it my way", but the only people who generally are met with hostility are the "expert" types. Sorry you aren't having fun. Larry C ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.