Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:34 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Thom Riddle)
2. 05:20 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Jack B. Hart)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (lucien)
4. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (flykolb@pa.net)
5. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (Ron @ KFHU)
6. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Ron @ KFHU)
7. 09:25 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (John Hauck)
8. 10:34 AM - Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (lucien)
9. 10:56 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Dana Hague)
10. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Dana Hague)
11. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (Ron @ KFHU)
12. 12:03 PM - Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (lucien)
13. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Ron @ KFHU)
14. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Richard Girard)
15. 01:31 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (John Hauck)
16. 01:57 PM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (lucien)
17. 02:12 PM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Jack B. Hart)
18. 03:41 PM - gas (robert bean)
19. 03:50 PM - Re: gas (John Hauck)
20. 04:12 PM - Re: gas (robert bean)
21. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (russ kinne)
22. 05:11 PM - Gas (Lanny Fetterman)
23. 05:11 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Ron @ KFHU)
24. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Dana Hague)
25. 08:04 PM - Re: gas (lucien)
26. 08:15 PM - Re: Gas (Herb)
27. 08:28 PM - Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (dalewhelan)
28. 08:34 PM - Rudder springs (Dana Hague)
29. 09:03 PM - 447 problem (Robert Laird)
30. 10:18 PM - Re: 447 problem (Carlos)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
Jack,
Please keep you reports coming on the MZ installation. I'm sure most would like
to see photos when you get a chance too.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253096#253096
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
At 10:05 PM 7/14/09 -0500, you wrote:
John,
If your aircraft is trimmed out for your desired cruise, further trimming
with the rudder should be unnecessary, and the ball centering will be
independent of the relative wind.
I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to
the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the
aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes
the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting
the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and
engine adjustment.
P factor affects any single propeller aircraft where the propeller rotary
axis is not parallel to the relative wind.
An advantage of the reduction units is to be able to displace the thrust
line to the side without a major weight shift. Also, I have found that the
more propeller wash I can get over the FireFly's low horizontal tail
surfaces the better it performs at low speed and on the ground.
Yes, I do have an advantage in that the FireFly is lighter and slower, but
even so if the FireFly was not well trimmed I would be throwing money away.
Also, it requires more pilot energy to fly an untrimmed aircraft. The
heavier the aircraft and the faster you cruise with the ball off center, the
more it is hitting you in the wallet. Using a trim tab to bring the ball in
is better than cruising with the ball out of center.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
>
>How do you trim the aircraft relative wind? I trim mine with the rudder.
>
>How do you counteract adverse yaw caused by the cork screwing prop wash
>hitting one side of the vertical stabilizer and relative wind hitting the
>opposite side of the rudder? On the MKIII, I do it with a very large trim
>tab.
>
>I think p factor has little of no effect on our Kolbs.
>
>During my experiments with the FS and MKIII, I was not able to see any
>significant change/advantage in offsetting the engine thrust line
>horizontally or vertically.
>
>I know you are an avid experimenter and enjoy attempting to squeeze every
>gram of efficiency out of your FF. You also fly much slower and with much
>less hp than most of us. However, for the average Kolb flyer like me and
>most others, there doesn't seem to be much advantage in changing the
>standard engine mount orientation.
>
>john h
>mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:
>
> I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to
> the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the
> aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes
> the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting
> the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and
> engine adjustment.
>
Don't mean to jump in but, speaking of that... I never could figure out what was
going on with my FSII.
One thing I noted with it was it needed left rudder on the takeoff roll to varying
degrees depending on what technique I used, i.e. a right-turning tendency.
But the prop rotated right hand (and it was a monster too, a 68" WD 3-blade)
so the torque or P-factor affects should have caused the plane to go to the _left_.
This was how other planes with a RH turning prop I've flown behaved, but
my FSII was the opposite.
The only explanation that seemed to fit was the corkscrewing airflow theory, where,
I guess, it was hitting the vertical stab from the right and thus trying
to swing the plane to the right.
This seemed to be how it behaved in the air too when doing slow flight or slow
high powered climbs.
So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but something else
stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess anyway. There was no offset
in the engine mounting, the crank was parallel to the tailboom.....
Still scratching my head over that one...
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253123#253123
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
An interesting experiment:
Chock your main wheels securely and the support the tail of the
airplane by a padded support under the fuselage tube so the tailwheel
is off the ground. Start the engine and add some throttle. As you
blip the throttle watch what the rudder does.
Dennis
Quoting lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>:
>
>
> jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:
>>
>> I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to
>> the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the
>> aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes
>> the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting
>> the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and
>> engine adjustment.
>>
>
>
> Don't mean to jump in but, speaking of that... I never could figure
> out what was going on with my FSII.
>
> One thing I noted with it was it needed left rudder on the takeoff
> roll to varying degrees depending on what technique I used, i.e. a
> right-turning tendency. But the prop rotated right hand (and it was
> a monster too, a 68" WD 3-blade) so the torque or P-factor affects
> should have caused the plane to go to the _left_. This was how other
> planes with a RH turning prop I've flown behaved, but my FSII was
> the opposite.
>
> The only explanation that seemed to fit was the corkscrewing airflow
> theory, where, I guess, it was hitting the vertical stab from the
> right and thus trying to swing the plane to the right.
>
> This seemed to be how it behaved in the air too when doing slow
> flight or slow high powered climbs.
>
> So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but
> something else stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess
> anyway. There was no offset in the engine mounting, the crank was
> parallel to the tailboom.....
>
> Still scratching my head over that one...
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253123#253123
>
>
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition |
Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density
alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically
means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course
leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I already
prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings.
I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in
there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the
observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold because
of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments
so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed)
or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see how it performs
with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor
as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker can
do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working on
this toy like motor.
================================
---- dalewhelan <dalewhelan@earthlink.net> wrote:
============
B7ES is Hotter than B8ES.
The heat range is about the plugs ability to transfer heat from the combustion
chamber to the head.
The plugs look rich. I could guess and say at all throttle openings but that is
dangerously presumptuous. The reality is you need to know how the motor was being
run when that color developed.
The plug temperature was too cold at shut down for me to be able to determine if
you ignition timing/ fuel octane is correct.
Correct this with jetting first, changing to a hotter plug could be disastrous.
My experience is that most people on this board will tell you you are running too
much oil. I don't want to revisit that, I can tell you that the amount of oil
you are running is not causing the problem you are having.
I have seen it at 50:1 on motors with too large a needle jet.
There are many pitfalls in jetting a motor, especially 2 strokes. For example,
needle jets wear, you may be skilled enough to figure out that you are rich on
the needle jet and change from a worn out one to a good one a step leaner. Now
you are too lean. There are many good sources about jetting. If you want you
can contact me and I will help. If you want you can google my name to see if
you think I can be of any help to you.
I used to teach carbeuration
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
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kugelair.com
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
There is an easy way to settle the cork screw debate.
Someone needs to hook a string in the prop wash and see if it blows straight back
or if it blows back at an angle supporting the cork screw motion. This can
be done on the ground with a string tied to the tail and see what it does. Or
maybe even by observing if the rudder is forced to one side or the other while
holding the brakes.
As for P-factor that is directly related to how aligned your motor thrust line
with the relative wind. You could have a counter or clockwise. It all depends
which blade is taking the bigger bite out of the air, that's the one that will
have the most torque to exert on the flight path. The Kolb thrust line is pretty
close to its center of mass so its moment arm for affecting deviation from
flight path is pretty weak, as compared to a Cessna 150. But of course the Kolb
is also very light so it may be noticeable even with the short moment arm.
Ron @ KFHU
===============================================
---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote:
============
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:
>
> I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to
> the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the
> aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes
> the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting
> the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and
> engine adjustment.
>
Don't mean to jump in but, speaking of that... I never could figure out what was
going on with my FSII.
One thing I noted with it was it needed left rudder on the takeoff roll to varying
degrees depending on what technique I used, i.e. a right-turning tendency.
But the prop rotated right hand (and it was a monster too, a 68" WD 3-blade)
so the torque or P-factor affects should have caused the plane to go to the _left_.
This was how other planes with a RH turning prop I've flown behaved, but
my FSII was the opposite.
The only explanation that seemed to fit was the corkscrewing airflow theory, where,
I guess, it was hitting the vertical stab from the right and thus trying
to swing the plane to the right.
This seemed to be how it behaved in the air too when doing slow flight or slow
high powered climbs.
So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but something else
stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess anyway. There was no offset
in the engine mounting, the crank was parallel to the tailboom.....
Still scratching my head over that one...
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253123#253123
--
kugelair.com
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
Jack H/Folks:
> If your aircraft is trimmed out for your desired cruise, further trimming
> with the rudder should be unnecessary, and the ball centering will be
> independent of the relative wind.
Relative wind has affected every aircraft I ever flew, fixed and rotary
wing. The fix was step on the ball and get it centered.
> I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory.
Cork screw prop wash, on my mkIII, is not theory.
>Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and
> engine adjustment.
Might be, but I go with what I have. I have experiemented with different
engine positions/angles, and the old cork screw prop wash never changes. It
keeps hitting the left side of the vertical stab, and relative wind is
hitting the right side of that big rudder. The fix, a rudder trim tab that
will get the job done. Mine keeps the ball of the slip/skid indicator
centered.
> P factor affects any single propeller aircraft where the propeller rotary
> axis is not parallel to the relative wind.
I agree with the above, but not enough to try and correct at normal cruise.
I think my cruise speed is what the aircraft was designed for. If I slow it
down in comparison to the way you fly, everything changes, including the
prop angle of attack in relative wind.
>Also, I have found that the
> more propeller wash I can get over the FireFly's low horizontal tail
> surfaces the better it performs at low speed and on the ground.
Never seen or flown a Kolb aircraft that did not have more than enough prop
wash over the tail to take care of any situation. If there is not enough
prop wash over your FF's tail, it is because you have screwed it up
adjusting prop thrust lines and flying with under powered engines. There
are occassions when a burst of full throttle is all that saved my mkIII from
ground looping, as experienced during my flight from Gallup, NM, to MV,
while landing at Chinle, AZ.
> The heavier the aircraft and the faster you cruise with the ball off
center, the
> more it is hitting you in the wallet. Using a trim tab to bring the ball
> in
> is better than cruising with the ball out of center.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
In a previous post I said you fly a lot different than most of us. Pilot
flying style, model Kolb, interests, engine power, affect aircraft
performance tremendously.
I am happy with my mkIII after nearly 3,000 hours and 17 years living with
and flying it. You would not be happy with my mkIII and I would not be
happy with your FF, the way you have it set up. That is what makes the Kolb
List what it is. If I don't happen to agree with someone, doesn't mean I
don't like them or what they are doing. Just not the way I do it.
I don't tell folks how to do it. I try to share what I do and let you all
pick and choose what they want, if anything.
Getting ready to get out of here in the morning. Got a long boring 800
miles to fly in some really hot, humid, hazy weather. It gets worse as I
get further NE, closer to the larger population centers. I also have to
contend with the Washington DC restricted area. Going to make me fly
further north and west than I would normally. Thanks to the terrorists!!!
jhn h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition |
captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
> Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density
alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically
means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course
leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I
already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings.
> I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in
there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the
observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold
because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments
so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed)
or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see how it
performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor
as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker
can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working
on this toy like motor.
>
That's one of the main niceties of flying a 2-stroke - mere mortals like myself
can actually work on them. Toolsets are cheaper, training is easier etc ;).
Back in TX we had a fair number of Cuyana's flying on various planes and they seemed
to give pretty decent service. The only problem was overheating of the rear
cylinder if run too hard. Many were replaced with the 447 which usually fixed
the problem tho....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253173#253173
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
At 09:20 AM 7/15/2009, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>
>I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to
>the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the
>aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes
>the adverse yaw.
The spiraling slipstream is definitely a factor in turning tendencies under
power. On a conventional (tractor) aircraft this force operates in the
same direction as the P-factor and torque, while on a high mounted pusher
like a Kolb it counteracts the P-factor and torque, since the bottom half
of the spiraling slipstream is hitting the fin instead of the upper
half. Which is stronger I can't say, but certainly it's going to be
stronger the closer the prop is to the vertical fin.
P-factor should not be an issue in cruise if the engine is set up properly
(thrust line parallel to the relative wind).
At 09:56 AM 7/15/2009, lucien wrote:
>
>...my FSII... needed left rudder on the takeoff roll...
>
>So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but something
>else stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess anyway. There
>was no offset in the engine mounting, the crank was parallel to the
>tailboom.....
Is that the way it's supposed to be? I was under the impression that the
low boom Kolbs had the boom tube angled upwards from the pod in level
flight, so if the thrust line was parallel to the boom you'd get P-factor
in the opposite direction, i.e. a RH turning prop would then cause a right
turning tendency.
-Dana
--
New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland
Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil
liberties or the U.S. Constitution.
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its
>moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty weak, as
>compared to a Cessna 150...
No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a torque
("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location.
However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two
things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low speed means
that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a
larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line before it
even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the wing
means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than the free
stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either direction
depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector.
-Dana
--
New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland
Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil
liberties or the U.S. Constitution.
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition |
Yeah I am hearing about the running too hot, but that's not a problem with the
contraption I am flying right now. If I were to keep it I would instrument it
more. But then it would ruin a perfectly good flying session. I have already stepped
up to high tech by buying and installing a Hal speed indicator $25. Seems
right on the money if I cross check it to the GPS. Hell I scared myself on
the last flight when I noticed I was actually cruising at around 45 MPH. I blame
the new trim gizmo I installed, a brand new Walmart bungee cord that takes
the strain off my arm. It keep the contraption from climbing on 55% power so now
its actually moving faster than the little biting bugs around here.
===========================================
---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote:
============
captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
> Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density
alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically
means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course
leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I
already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings.
> I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in
there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the
observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold
because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments
so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed)
or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see how it
performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor
as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker
can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working
on this toy like motor.
>
That's one of the main niceties of flying a 2-stroke - mere mortals like myself
can actually work on them. Toolsets are cheaper, training is easier etc ;).
Back in TX we had a fair number of Cuyana's flying on various planes and they seemed
to give pretty decent service. The only problem was overheating of the rear
cylinder if run too hard. Many were replaced with the 447 which usually fixed
the problem tho....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253173#253173
--
kugelair.com
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition |
captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:
> Yeah I am hearing about the running too hot, but that's not a problem with the
contraption I am flying right now. If I were to keep it I would instrument it
more. But then it would ruin a perfectly good flying session. I have already
stepped up to high tech by buying and installing a Hal speed indicator $25. Seems
right on the money if I cross check it to the GPS. Hell I scared myself on
the last flight when I noticed I was actually cruising at around 45 MPH. I blame
the new trim gizmo I installed, a brand new Walmart bungee cord that takes
the strain off my arm. It keep the contraption from climbing on 55% power so
now its actually moving faster than the little biting bugs around here.
>
I know we're drifting off topic a bit but...
The Halls gauges are actually astonishingly accurate, the only drawback being they
they have to be dangling out in the wind, kind of along with the pilot....
I used a halls on a couple of my ultralights and they always worked very well.
The bungee cord method of trim is time-honored and works fine. I trim my titan
with one wrapped around the bottom of the right rudder pedal, still the one JD
put there when he built the plane. I'm told that's actually a slightly less draggy
method of trimming than putting on a trim tab as well.
Speaking of that, I adhere to the corkscrewing air theory on the titan as well,
as it has left-going tendency with power applied which is the reason for the
bungee. Yet it's a LH pusher which should go to the right due to torque and, at
high AoA's, P-factor......
LS
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253198#253198
Message 13
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness or belligerence,
if you must say no you need to enter it after you made you counter point
or made your explanation.
P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the entire effect of
the propeller from induced drag to counter torque is at play, so if you do not
want to come across as an ignorant jerk trying to raise yourself to a level
of expertise that you have yet to show, you need to word your answers quite differently.
Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if there is anything
worth considering in it.
Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your Jerk Off "No"
is coming from.
So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is about.
You may be one of those jack asses where being civil to you indicates a weakness,
I run into people like that every so often and after I get over their * rudeness
* I respond to them in the manner that they understand and deserve, so thread
carefully especially if you don't know who you are talking to Dana. Trust
me when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if you choose
to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list but also come out
on the short end of the stick.
Ron @ KFHU
===========================
---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
============
At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its
>moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty weak, as
>compared to a Cessna 150...
No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a torque
("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location.
However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two
things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low speed means
that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a
larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line before it
even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the wing
means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than the free
stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either direction
depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector.
-Dana
--
New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland
Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil
liberties or the U.S. Constitution.
--
kugelair.com
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
Ah, another fan you've made, Dana. Congratulations, that Dale Carnegie
course is working just fine.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Ron @ KFHU <captainron1@cox.net> wrote:
>
> You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness or
> belligerence, if you must say no you need to enter it after you made you
> counter point or made your explanation.
> P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the entire
> effect of the propeller from induced drag to counter torque is at play, so
> if you do not want to come across as an ignorant jerk trying to raise
> yourself to a level of expertise that you have yet to show, you need to word
> your answers quite differently.
>
> Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if there is
> anything worth considering in it.
> Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your Jerk
> Off "No" is coming from.
> So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is about.
> You may be one of those jack asses where being civil to you indicates a
> weakness, I run into people like that every so often and after I get over
> their * rudeness * I respond to them in the manner that they understand and
> deserve, so thread carefully especially if you don't know who you are
> talking to Dana. Trust me when I say to you that I am way better than you at
> flaming, so if you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this
> entire list but also come out on the short end of the stick.
>
>
> Ron @ KFHU
>
> ===========================
> ---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ============
>
> At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
> >...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its
> >moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty weak, as
> >compared to a Cessna 150...
>
> No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a torque
> ("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location.
>
> However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two
> things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low speed means
> that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a
> larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line before it
> even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the wing
> means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than the free
> stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either direction
> depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector.
>
> -Dana
>
> --
> New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland
> Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil
> liberties or the U.S. Constitution.
>
>
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
Trust me when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if
you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list but also
come out on the short end of the stick.
>
>
> Ron @ KFHU
Captain Ron:
Looks like your post would have been better sent back copy and not to the
Kolb List.
I can't find anything in it Kolb related.
Thanks,
john h
mkIII
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
Dana wrote:
>
> Is that the way it's supposed to be? I was under the impression that the
> low boom Kolbs had the boom tube angled upwards from the pod in level
> flight, so if the thrust line was parallel to the boom you'd get P-factor
> in the opposite direction, i.e. a RH turning prop would then cause a right
> turning tendency.
>
> -Dana
>
Well the thrust line wasn't parallel to the boom tube on mine, it was basically
in line with the chord of the main wing. So in flight it all "lined up" as far
as I could tell, the wing flying at some small positive AoA and maybe the prop
disk canted backwards a little with respect to the relative wind. The boom
tube would "ride" pointing up a bit.
So if there was any P factor at cruise it would have been trying to yaw to the
left.
My plane did have trim tabs on an aileron and on the rudder but I don't remember
which way they were oriented. And also, the left rudder was needed generally
only on the takeoff roll. I don't remember much of anything like having to trim
once it was in the air.
I don't see how it could have been anything else but the corkscrewing airflow as
torque and P factor effects on the ground or at high AoA's were all acting in
the opposite direction.
Could be why my titan doesn't need much rudder at t/o - it's got about 800,000
times more torque and P factor than my FSII did with the 912 100 horse and the
huge honking powerfin on it. That may be enough to cancel out the corkscrewing
airflow on the vertical stab?....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253230#253230
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
At 11:23 AM 7/15/09 -0500, you wrote:
>
John,
>
>Relative wind has affected every aircraft I ever flew, fixed and rotary
>wing. The fix was step on the ball and get it centered.
>
Once again, my point is that if your plane is well trimmed out at cruise,
you will not have to step on the ball.
>
>Cork screw prop wash, on my mkIII, is not theory.
>
I should have said, I believe the effects are greatly over rated in
comparison to propeller torque reaction.
>
> Mine keeps the ball of the slip/skid indicator centered.
>
I am pleased that you do not have to step on the ball, it becomes tiresome.
>
>I agree with the above, but not enough to try and correct at normal cruise.
>I think my cruise speed is what the aircraft was designed for. If I slow it
>down in comparison to the way you fly, everything changes, including the
>prop angle of attack in relative wind.
>
I have never indicated that you or anyone should slow down to FireFly cruise
speed. I have always used the words "trimmed for cruise". You have already
indicated that you kick the ball to center and then that you don't need
to.
>
>Never seen or flown a Kolb aircraft that did not have more than enough prop
>wash over the tail to take care of any situation. If there is not enough
>prop wash over your FF's tail, it is because you have screwed it up
>adjusting prop thrust lines and flying with under powered engines.
>
Thank you, my underpowered FireFly can easily exceed 55 knots and I am very
pleased with the effortless way it flys.
>
>There are occassions when a burst of full throttle is all that saved my mkIII
from
>ground looping, as experienced during my flight from Gallup, NM, to MV,
>while landing at Chinle, AZ.
>
John, you decided to move your landing gear foward and to run large low
pressure tires. The further the cg is behind the landing gear the pilot
must exercise greater skill to prevent ground looping.
>
>I am happy with my mkIII after nearly 3,000 hours and 17 years living with
>and flying it. You would not be happy with my mkIII and I would not be
>happy with your FF, the way you have it set up.
>
This is a little presumptous.
That is what makes the Kolb
>List what it is. If I don't happen to agree with someone, doesn't mean I
>don't like them or what they are doing. Just not the way I do it.
>
>I don't tell folks how to do it. I try to share what I do and let you all
>pick and choose what they want, if anything.
>
I believe this is a good philosophy.
>Getting ready to get out of here in the morning. Got a long boring 800
>miles to fly in some really hot, humid, hazy weather. It gets worse as I
>get further NE, closer to the larger population centers. I also have to
>contend with the Washington DC restricted area. Going to make me fly
>further north and west than I would normally. Thanks to the terrorists!!!
>
John, have a good trip and keep the ball centered. (joke)
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 18
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no..... (just HAD to say that:)
Very pretty day here for once. Actually made it to 80F. I was
puttering around on the car,
getting it ready for NYS inspection but really felt the urge to
aviate. As I have previously posted
I had been having mysterious fuel/carb problems. Thought I gone
through just about everything and
the plane seemed ok. While it was warming up and I was wiping bug
crap it died. -That took the edge off my
enthusiasm.
I knew it was still fuel. I pulled the line off the filter and ran
the master. Yellow fuel came out followed by a lighter color.
I cleaned the float valve with carb cleaner, drained the tank and
refilled with fresh. Purged some more and hooked it back up.
Seems ok again, visited a couple of neighbors, made a go-around over
the trees on one guy's short lumpy strip
after a bounced landing. Still getting used to those legs.
I don't like that gas problem. Never had it before after 40 years of
running car gas. My neighbor winters near Ft Meyers
and was talking to a boat dealer there. Said he has never had as
many boat engines suffering fuel problems.
BTW, I DO clean the tanks every spring and put in fresh gas and
change the filter. The stuff I took out of the tank today
was definitely darker in color than the fresh gas. All I can advise
is to pour a sample of every can into
a clear container and look at it.
I hate &%#? ethanol.
BB
MkIII suzuki
Message 19
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> BTW, I DO clean the tanks every spring and put in fresh gas and
> change the filter. The stuff I took out of the tank today
> was definitely darker in color than the fresh gas. All I can advise is
> to pour a sample of every can into
> a clear container and look at it.
>
> I hate &%#? ethanol.
> BB
> MkIII suzuki
Bob B:
I have been running more 100LL than mogas lately.
Since I don't fly much locally any more, I like having 100LL in the tank and
fuel system. It stores much better than ethanol laced fuel. No problems
yet.
john h
mkIII
Message 20
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John, I think I will start doing that too, especially considering
how few hours I fly anyway.
This gas situation gives me the willies, heebie jeebies, and there's
a golfer's term for it too,I forget. (the YIPS?)
Say hi to the folks in PA and if you are ambitious and the weather is
bad going home, stop up here and
cool off. I'll buy you a tank of 100LL
BB
On 15, Jul 2009, at 6:46 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> > BTW, I DO clean the tanks every spring and put in fresh gas and
>> change the filter. The stuff I took out of the tank today
>> was definitely darker in color than the fresh gas. All I can
>> advise is to pour a sample of every can into
>> a clear container and look at it.
>>
>> I hate &%#? ethanol.
>> BB
>> MkIII suzuki
>
>
> Bob B:
>
> I have been running more 100LL than mogas lately.
>
> Since I don't fly much locally any more, I like having 100LL in the
> tank and fuel system. It stores much better than ethanol laced
> fuel. No problems yet.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
Ron
I don't know you, but please don't re-start this business of
insulting other people on the list.
Like your saying 'ignorant jerk', 'jerk-off no', 'jackasses',
'uncivil', & even 'rudeness' and 'belligerance'
None of us need that.
It's counterproductive.
We had a lot of that some time ago, from another Kolber.
We need no more 'flaming'
Please stop.
Thanx
Russ K
On Jul 15, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>
> You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness
> or belligerence, if you must say no you need to enter it after you
> made you counter point or made your explanation.
> P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the
> entire effect of the propeller from induced drag to counter torque
> is at play, so if you do not want to come across as an ignorant
> jerk trying to raise yourself to a level of expertise that you have
> yet to show, you need to word your answers quite differently.
>
> Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if
> there is anything worth considering in it.
> Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your
> Jerk Off "No" is coming from.
> So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is
> about.
> You may be one of those jack asses where being civil to you
> indicates a weakness, I run into people like that every so often
> and after I get over their * rudeness * I respond to them in the
> manner that they understand and deserve, so thread carefully
> especially if you don't know who you are talking to Dana. Trust me
> when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if
> you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list
> but also come out on the short end of the stick.
>
>
> Ron @ KFHU
>
> ===========================
> ---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ============
>
> At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>> ...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its
>> moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty
>> weak, as
>> compared to a Cessna 150...
>
> No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a
> torque
> ("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location.
>
> However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two
> things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low
> speed means
> that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a
> larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line
> before it
> even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the
> wing
> means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than
> the free
> stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either
> direction
> depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector.
>
> -Dana
>
> --
> New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland
> Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil
> liberties or the U.S. Constitution.
>
>
> --
> kugelair.com
>
>
Message 22
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Just this year I started using Marine Sta-Bil in all the 92 octane gas I
run in the 503. It says it will take care of all the things that concern me
about ethanol. We will see. Lanny FSII
Message 23
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From: | "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net> |
Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
That's correct it was not meant for public consumption.
My apologies to all.
Ron
=============
---- John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
============
Trust me when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if
you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list but also
come out on the short end of the stick.
>
>
> Ron @ KFHU
Captain Ron:
Looks like your post would have been better sent back copy and not to the
Kolb List.
I can't find anything in it Kolb related.
Thanks,
john h
mkIII
--
kugelair.com
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Victor 1+ Report |
At 03:50 PM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote:
>You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness or
>belligerence, if you must say no you need to enter it after you made you
>counter point or made your explanation.
>P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the entire
>effect of the propeller from induced drag to counter torque is at play, so
>if you do not want to come across as an ignorant jerk trying to raise
>yourself to a level of expertise that you have yet to show, you need to
>word your answers quite differently.
>
>Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if there
>is anything worth considering in it.
>Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your Jerk
>Off "No" is coming from.
>So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is about.
>You may be one of those jack asses...
What on earth is your problem? You made an incorrect statement, I said so
and explained why it was incorrect. Would it have been better if I said,
"Um, gee, I'm terribly sorry, but I think you may have made a teeny weeny
little mistake, I think you might be mistaken..."? Your own reaction to
being corrected is the way of an "ignorant jerk" (your words, not mine, I
prefer to be polite). I am quite aware of what P-factor is (a more
accurate term is "asymmetric blade thrust"), they kinda taught us about it
when I was earning a degree in aerospace engineering 30 years ago... and
they taught it in ground school when I was learning to fly around the same
time.
Now, go back and read my post, where I fully explained what the "no" was
about. If you want to discuss it further, ask politely, without comments
about "ignorant jerks" and "jack asses".
-Dana
--
The number of elected federal officials is limited to congress, the
president and the vice president. That's only 537 people. The federal
bureaucracy numbers in the millions.....
Message 25
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Pure auto gas went away here completely a few months ago so I started running it
around that time. Fortunately no problems as the tank was already very clean
to begin with.
What I do is start robbing gas out of the plane with the siphon if I don't get
to fly for longer than about 2 weeks. I burn it in the truck which usually needs
gas anyway.
This way, the tank always has freshly pumped gas in it one way or the other when
I go fly. We live in a dry climate so this may be a little paranoid I'll admit
but it has worked to keep my fuel system clean so far.
I've been lucky and have been able to go up and get the motor to operating temp
at least once a week but sometimes I'm grounded longer than that.
There's an attempt being made now to increase the ethanol concentrations to 15%
by the ethanol industry. If it goes through (and I'll bet a million that it does)
then I'll have no choice but to go back to 100LL. 100LL keeps a lot better
anyway as John H. says.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253270#253270
Message 26
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Wondering if a quart of av gas mixed with a tank of rot gut would act
similarly to Sta Bil? Herb
At 07:04 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
>
>Just this year I started using Marine Sta-Bil in all the 92 octane
>gas I run in the 503. It says it will take care of all the things
>that concern me about ethanol. We will see. Lanny FSII
>
>
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>07/15/09 17:58:00
Message 27
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition |
A little about mid range jetting.
Moving the clip has most effect from about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle.
Changing the needle jet effect from about 1/8 to 3/4 throttle.
The reason this works is that the clip only changes when the needle starts to taper
in the jet. This does not happen until the throttle is opened a bit.
Changing the needle jet diameter effects the fuel flowing past the needle at all
positions.
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253273#253273
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While flying this evening I reflected on the fact that the rudder pedal
forces seem disproportionately higher than the other control forces. Part
of this is due to the fact that I moved the rudder cable attach point from
the original position midway up the pedal (per the plans) to the top of the
pedal. This gives more rudder deflection for a given amount of pedal
deflection, which makes it more comfortable to turn on the ground, but also
increases the pedal force.
However, another reason for the force is the heavy springs in front of the
pedals. These are necessary, of course, to keep the cables taut, but the
also exert a fairly heavy centering force. My thought was to replace the
springs with an additional cable around a pulley (or two pulleys) to
complete the circuit and keep the tension, without the centering
tendency. There might need to be a short spring in line with the new cable
to take up any total length variation due to the geometry as it moves
through the range of motion (I haven't analyzed it to see if this would be
necessary), but it wouldn't provide the heavy centering force the original
setup gives.
Thoughts? Anybody seen this done before?
-Dana
--
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark.
Professionals built the Titanic.
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I've been flying in front of a 912ULS for many years, but am now also flying
(again) in front of a 447... and I'm already missing the reliability!
Ok, so, I'm flying along for 40 minutes, and everything is cool. I'm flying
straight-and-level, no throttle changes, just cruising, then suddenly the
rpms drop 1000rpm, from about 6200 to 5200, then after a moment, it surges
back up to 6200. Then about 3-4 seconds later, it does the same thing.
Luckily, I'm near the airport, so I make a bee-line to the runway and land
safely.
As I land, at the lower throttle settings, it seems okay. After I land, it
seems to work fine while I taxi.
I get back to the hangar and let it cool off. The tank was almost dry (had
about a gallon left) by that point, so I put in fresh gas (always using Mr.
Funnel). After it's cooled off, I try to start it, and it starts right up.
It idles normally, then I taxi out and try it again. I circle the airport 3
or 4 times, at around 600-700 feet, and after 10 minutes the wind starts
coming up, so I decide I'll cut this test flight short. Right about then,
it starts doing it again... I hadn't made any altitude changes, throttle
changes, and the tank this time was full. So, it's not bad fuel.
The system pressurizes okay when I use the squeeze bulb and, as I said, it
starts right up. No other indications that I can see or hear of anything
wrong. I'm going to check the plugs tomorrow, but it runs just fine.
My only guess is that maybe the mechanical fuel pump is on it's last legs
and can't keep the bowl full. I've got a Facet pump that I think I'll plumb
in parallel and turn it on throughout a flight, to see if that helps.
Anyone else have any ideas what it might be?
-- Robert
Message 30
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Hi Bob,
You may wish to check the float bowl to see if there is anything
floating around in there. If the pump is failing, there could be bits of
rubber diaphragm getting into the bowl.
It seems now matter how many filters you have, dirt always seems to get
past them.
Hope this helps
BaronVonEvil
Firestar II
Rotax 447
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Laird
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:58 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: 447 problem
I've been flying in front of a 912ULS for many years, but am now also
flying (again) in front of a 447... and I'm already missing the
reliability!
Ok, so, I'm flying along for 40 minutes, and everything is cool. I'm
flying straight-and-level, no throttle changes, just cruising, then
suddenly the rpms drop 1000rpm, from about 6200 to 5200, then after a
moment, it surges back up to 6200. Then about 3-4 seconds later, it
does the same thing. Luckily, I'm near the airport, so I make a
bee-line to the runway and land safely.
As I land, at the lower throttle settings, it seems okay. After I
land, it seems to work fine while I taxi.
I get back to the hangar and let it cool off. The tank was almost dry
(had about a gallon left) by that point, so I put in fresh gas (always
using Mr. Funnel). After it's cooled off, I try to start it, and it
starts right up. It idles normally, then I taxi out and try it again.
I circle the airport 3 or 4 times, at around 600-700 feet, and after 10
minutes the wind starts coming up, so I decide I'll cut this test flight
short. Right about then, it starts doing it again... I hadn't made any
altitude changes, throttle changes, and the tank this time was full.
So, it's not bad fuel.
The system pressurizes okay when I use the squeeze bulb and, as I
said, it starts right up. No other indications that I can see or hear
of anything wrong. I'm going to check the plugs tomorrow, but it runs
just fine.
My only guess is that maybe the mechanical fuel pump is on it's last
legs and can't keep the bowl full. I've got a Facet pump that I think
I'll plumb in parallel and turn it on throughout a flight, to see if
that helps.
Anyone else have any ideas what it might be?
-- Robert
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