Kolb-List Digest Archive

Wed 07/15/09


Total Messages Posted: 30



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:34 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Thom Riddle)
     2. 05:20 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Jack B. Hart)
     3. 06:57 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (lucien)
     4. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (flykolb@pa.net)
     5. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (Ron @ KFHU)
     6. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Ron @ KFHU)
     7. 09:25 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (John Hauck)
     8. 10:34 AM - Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (lucien)
     9. 10:56 AM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Dana Hague)
    10. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Dana Hague)
    11. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (Ron @ KFHU)
    12. 12:03 PM - Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (lucien)
    13. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Ron @ KFHU)
    14. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Richard Girard)
    15. 01:31 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (John Hauck)
    16. 01:57 PM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (lucien)
    17. 02:12 PM - Re: Victor 1+ Report (Jack B. Hart)
    18. 03:41 PM - gas (robert bean)
    19. 03:50 PM - Re: gas (John Hauck)
    20. 04:12 PM - Re: gas (robert bean)
    21. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (russ kinne)
    22. 05:11 PM - Gas (Lanny Fetterman)
    23. 05:11 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Ron @ KFHU)
    24. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: Victor 1+ Report (Dana Hague)
    25. 08:04 PM - Re: gas (lucien)
    26. 08:15 PM - Re: Gas (Herb)
    27. 08:28 PM - Re: Fw: Spark Plugs Condition (dalewhelan)
    28. 08:34 PM - Rudder springs (Dana Hague)
    29. 09:03 PM - 447 problem (Robert Laird)
    30. 10:18 PM - Re: 447 problem (Carlos)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:34:13 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
    Jack, Please keep you reports coming on the MZ installation. I'm sure most would like to see photos when you get a chance too. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253096#253096


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:20:16 AM PST US
    From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    At 10:05 PM 7/14/09 -0500, you wrote: John, If your aircraft is trimmed out for your desired cruise, further trimming with the rudder should be unnecessary, and the ball centering will be independent of the relative wind. I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and engine adjustment. P factor affects any single propeller aircraft where the propeller rotary axis is not parallel to the relative wind. An advantage of the reduction units is to be able to displace the thrust line to the side without a major weight shift. Also, I have found that the more propeller wash I can get over the FireFly's low horizontal tail surfaces the better it performs at low speed and on the ground. Yes, I do have an advantage in that the FireFly is lighter and slower, but even so if the FireFly was not well trimmed I would be throwing money away. Also, it requires more pilot energy to fly an untrimmed aircraft. The heavier the aircraft and the faster you cruise with the ball off center, the more it is hitting you in the wallet. Using a trim tab to bring the ball in is better than cruising with the ball out of center. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN > >How do you trim the aircraft relative wind? I trim mine with the rudder. > >How do you counteract adverse yaw caused by the cork screwing prop wash >hitting one side of the vertical stabilizer and relative wind hitting the >opposite side of the rudder? On the MKIII, I do it with a very large trim >tab. > >I think p factor has little of no effect on our Kolbs. > >During my experiments with the FS and MKIII, I was not able to see any >significant change/advantage in offsetting the engine thrust line >horizontally or vertically. > >I know you are an avid experimenter and enjoy attempting to squeeze every >gram of efficiency out of your FF. You also fly much slower and with much >less hp than most of us. However, for the average Kolb flyer like me and >most others, there doesn't seem to be much advantage in changing the >standard engine mount orientation. > >john h >mkIII


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:57:07 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: > > I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to > the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the > aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes > the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting > the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and > engine adjustment. > Don't mean to jump in but, speaking of that... I never could figure out what was going on with my FSII. One thing I noted with it was it needed left rudder on the takeoff roll to varying degrees depending on what technique I used, i.e. a right-turning tendency. But the prop rotated right hand (and it was a monster too, a 68" WD 3-blade) so the torque or P-factor affects should have caused the plane to go to the _left_. This was how other planes with a RH turning prop I've flown behaved, but my FSII was the opposite. The only explanation that seemed to fit was the corkscrewing airflow theory, where, I guess, it was hitting the vertical stab from the right and thus trying to swing the plane to the right. This seemed to be how it behaved in the air too when doing slow flight or slow high powered climbs. So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but something else stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess anyway. There was no offset in the engine mounting, the crank was parallel to the tailboom..... Still scratching my head over that one... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253123#253123


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:22:46 AM PST US
    From: "flykolb@pa.net" <flykolb@pa.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    An interesting experiment: Chock your main wheels securely and the support the tail of the airplane by a padded support under the fuselage tube so the tailwheel is off the ground. Start the engine and add some throttle. As you blip the throttle watch what the rudder does. Dennis Quoting lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>: > > > jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: >> >> I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to >> the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the >> aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes >> the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting >> the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and >> engine adjustment. >> > > > Don't mean to jump in but, speaking of that... I never could figure > out what was going on with my FSII. > > One thing I noted with it was it needed left rudder on the takeoff > roll to varying degrees depending on what technique I used, i.e. a > right-turning tendency. But the prop rotated right hand (and it was > a monster too, a 68" WD 3-blade) so the torque or P-factor affects > should have caused the plane to go to the _left_. This was how other > planes with a RH turning prop I've flown behaved, but my FSII was > the opposite. > > The only explanation that seemed to fit was the corkscrewing airflow > theory, where, I guess, it was hitting the vertical stab from the > right and thus trying to swing the plane to the right. > > This seemed to be how it behaved in the air too when doing slow > flight or slow high powered climbs. > > So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but > something else stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess > anyway. There was no offset in the engine mounting, the crank was > parallel to the tailboom..... > > Still scratching my head over that one... > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253123#253123 > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:22:54 AM PST US
    From: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition
    Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings. I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed) or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see how it performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working on this toy like motor. ================================ ---- dalewhelan <dalewhelan@earthlink.net> wrote: ============ B7ES is Hotter than B8ES. The heat range is about the plugs ability to transfer heat from the combustion chamber to the head. The plugs look rich. I could guess and say at all throttle openings but that is dangerously presumptuous. The reality is you need to know how the motor was being run when that color developed. The plug temperature was too cold at shut down for me to be able to determine if you ignition timing/ fuel octane is correct. Correct this with jetting first, changing to a hotter plug could be disastrous. My experience is that most people on this board will tell you you are running too much oil. I don't want to revisit that, I can tell you that the amount of oil you are running is not causing the problem you are having. I have seen it at 50:1 on motors with too large a needle jet. There are many pitfalls in jetting a motor, especially 2 strokes. For example, needle jets wear, you may be skilled enough to figure out that you are rich on the needle jet and change from a worn out one to a good one a step leaner. Now you are too lean. There are many good sources about jetting. If you want you can contact me and I will help. If you want you can google my name to see if you think I can be of any help to you. I used to teach carbeuration -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253076#253076 -- kugelair.com


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:40:00 AM PST US
    From: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    There is an easy way to settle the cork screw debate. Someone needs to hook a string in the prop wash and see if it blows straight back or if it blows back at an angle supporting the cork screw motion. This can be done on the ground with a string tied to the tail and see what it does. Or maybe even by observing if the rudder is forced to one side or the other while holding the brakes. As for P-factor that is directly related to how aligned your motor thrust line with the relative wind. You could have a counter or clockwise. It all depends which blade is taking the bigger bite out of the air, that's the one that will have the most torque to exert on the flight path. The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty weak, as compared to a Cessna 150. But of course the Kolb is also very light so it may be noticeable even with the short moment arm. Ron @ KFHU =============================================== ---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote: ============ jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: > > I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to > the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the > aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes > the adverse yaw. This can be removed by P factor adjustment and offsetting > the propeller. Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and > engine adjustment. > Don't mean to jump in but, speaking of that... I never could figure out what was going on with my FSII. One thing I noted with it was it needed left rudder on the takeoff roll to varying degrees depending on what technique I used, i.e. a right-turning tendency. But the prop rotated right hand (and it was a monster too, a 68" WD 3-blade) so the torque or P-factor affects should have caused the plane to go to the _left_. This was how other planes with a RH turning prop I've flown behaved, but my FSII was the opposite. The only explanation that seemed to fit was the corkscrewing airflow theory, where, I guess, it was hitting the vertical stab from the right and thus trying to swing the plane to the right. This seemed to be how it behaved in the air too when doing slow flight or slow high powered climbs. So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but something else stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess anyway. There was no offset in the engine mounting, the crank was parallel to the tailboom..... Still scratching my head over that one... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253123#253123 -- kugelair.com


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:25:42 AM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    Jack H/Folks: > If your aircraft is trimmed out for your desired cruise, further trimming > with the rudder should be unnecessary, and the ball centering will be > independent of the relative wind. Relative wind has affected every aircraft I ever flew, fixed and rotary wing. The fix was step on the ball and get it centered. > I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. Cork screw prop wash, on my mkIII, is not theory. >Very large trim tabs can be a sign of poor airframe and > engine adjustment. Might be, but I go with what I have. I have experiemented with different engine positions/angles, and the old cork screw prop wash never changes. It keeps hitting the left side of the vertical stab, and relative wind is hitting the right side of that big rudder. The fix, a rudder trim tab that will get the job done. Mine keeps the ball of the slip/skid indicator centered. > P factor affects any single propeller aircraft where the propeller rotary > axis is not parallel to the relative wind. I agree with the above, but not enough to try and correct at normal cruise. I think my cruise speed is what the aircraft was designed for. If I slow it down in comparison to the way you fly, everything changes, including the prop angle of attack in relative wind. >Also, I have found that the > more propeller wash I can get over the FireFly's low horizontal tail > surfaces the better it performs at low speed and on the ground. Never seen or flown a Kolb aircraft that did not have more than enough prop wash over the tail to take care of any situation. If there is not enough prop wash over your FF's tail, it is because you have screwed it up adjusting prop thrust lines and flying with under powered engines. There are occassions when a burst of full throttle is all that saved my mkIII from ground looping, as experienced during my flight from Gallup, NM, to MV, while landing at Chinle, AZ. > The heavier the aircraft and the faster you cruise with the ball off center, the > more it is hitting you in the wallet. Using a trim tab to bring the ball > in > is better than cruising with the ball out of center. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN In a previous post I said you fly a lot different than most of us. Pilot flying style, model Kolb, interests, engine power, affect aircraft performance tremendously. I am happy with my mkIII after nearly 3,000 hours and 17 years living with and flying it. You would not be happy with my mkIII and I would not be happy with your FF, the way you have it set up. That is what makes the Kolb List what it is. If I don't happen to agree with someone, doesn't mean I don't like them or what they are doing. Just not the way I do it. I don't tell folks how to do it. I try to share what I do and let you all pick and choose what they want, if anything. Getting ready to get out of here in the morning. Got a long boring 800 miles to fly in some really hot, humid, hazy weather. It gets worse as I get further NE, closer to the larger population centers. I also have to contend with the Washington DC restricted area. Going to make me fly further north and west than I would normally. Thanks to the terrorists!!! jhn h mkIII


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:34:26 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings. > I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed) or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see how it performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working on this toy like motor. > That's one of the main niceties of flying a 2-stroke - mere mortals like myself can actually work on them. Toolsets are cheaper, training is easier etc ;). Back in TX we had a fair number of Cuyana's flying on various planes and they seemed to give pretty decent service. The only problem was overheating of the rear cylinder if run too hard. Many were replaced with the 447 which usually fixed the problem tho.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253173#253173


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:56:21 AM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    At 09:20 AM 7/15/2009, Jack B. Hart wrote: > >I do not subscribe to the cork screw prop wash theory. I do subscribe to >the adverse roll caused by the torque reaction between the propeller and the >aircraft. This is countered with a little ailerons bias which then causes >the adverse yaw. The spiraling slipstream is definitely a factor in turning tendencies under power. On a conventional (tractor) aircraft this force operates in the same direction as the P-factor and torque, while on a high mounted pusher like a Kolb it counteracts the P-factor and torque, since the bottom half of the spiraling slipstream is hitting the fin instead of the upper half. Which is stronger I can't say, but certainly it's going to be stronger the closer the prop is to the vertical fin. P-factor should not be an issue in cruise if the engine is set up properly (thrust line parallel to the relative wind). At 09:56 AM 7/15/2009, lucien wrote: > >...my FSII... needed left rudder on the takeoff roll... > >So judging by that, it couldn't have been P-factor or torque but something >else stronger than either of those affects. Well, my guess anyway. There >was no offset in the engine mounting, the crank was parallel to the >tailboom..... Is that the way it's supposed to be? I was under the impression that the low boom Kolbs had the boom tube angled upwards from the pod in level flight, so if the thrust line was parallel to the boom you'd get P-factor in the opposite direction, i.e. a RH turning prop would then cause a right turning tendency. -Dana -- New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil liberties or the U.S. Constitution.


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:19:44 AM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: >...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its >moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty weak, as >compared to a Cessna 150... No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a torque ("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location. However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low speed means that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line before it even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the wing means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than the free stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either direction depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector. -Dana -- New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil liberties or the U.S. Constitution.


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:41:15 AM PST US
    From: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition
    Yeah I am hearing about the running too hot, but that's not a problem with the contraption I am flying right now. If I were to keep it I would instrument it more. But then it would ruin a perfectly good flying session. I have already stepped up to high tech by buying and installing a Hal speed indicator $25. Seems right on the money if I cross check it to the GPS. Hell I scared myself on the last flight when I noticed I was actually cruising at around 45 MPH. I blame the new trim gizmo I installed, a brand new Walmart bungee cord that takes the strain off my arm. It keep the contraption from climbing on 55% power so now its actually moving faster than the little biting bugs around here. =========================================== ---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote: ============ captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings. > I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed) or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see how it performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working on this toy like motor. > That's one of the main niceties of flying a 2-stroke - mere mortals like myself can actually work on them. Toolsets are cheaper, training is easier etc ;). Back in TX we had a fair number of Cuyana's flying on various planes and they seemed to give pretty decent service. The only problem was overheating of the rear cylinder if run too hard. Many were replaced with the 447 which usually fixed the problem tho.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253173#253173 -- kugelair.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 12:03:53 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: > Yeah I am hearing about the running too hot, but that's not a problem with the contraption I am flying right now. If I were to keep it I would instrument it more. But then it would ruin a perfectly good flying session. I have already stepped up to high tech by buying and installing a Hal speed indicator $25. Seems right on the money if I cross check it to the GPS. Hell I scared myself on the last flight when I noticed I was actually cruising at around 45 MPH. I blame the new trim gizmo I installed, a brand new Walmart bungee cord that takes the strain off my arm. It keep the contraption from climbing on 55% power so now its actually moving faster than the little biting bugs around here. > I know we're drifting off topic a bit but... The Halls gauges are actually astonishingly accurate, the only drawback being they they have to be dangling out in the wind, kind of along with the pilot.... I used a halls on a couple of my ultralights and they always worked very well. The bungee cord method of trim is time-honored and works fine. I trim my titan with one wrapped around the bottom of the right rudder pedal, still the one JD put there when he built the plane. I'm told that's actually a slightly less draggy method of trimming than putting on a trim tab as well. Speaking of that, I adhere to the corkscrewing air theory on the titan as well, as it has left-going tendency with power applied which is the reason for the bungee. Yet it's a LH pusher which should go to the right due to torque and, at high AoA's, P-factor...... LS LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253198#253198


    Message 13


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    Time: 12:51:41 PM PST US
    From: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness or belligerence, if you must say no you need to enter it after you made you counter point or made your explanation. P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the entire effect of the propeller from induced drag to counter torque is at play, so if you do not want to come across as an ignorant jerk trying to raise yourself to a level of expertise that you have yet to show, you need to word your answers quite differently. Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if there is anything worth considering in it. Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your Jerk Off "No" is coming from. So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is about. You may be one of those jack asses where being civil to you indicates a weakness, I run into people like that every so often and after I get over their * rudeness * I respond to them in the manner that they understand and deserve, so thread carefully especially if you don't know who you are talking to Dana. Trust me when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list but also come out on the short end of the stick. Ron @ KFHU =========================== ---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote: ============ At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: >...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its >moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty weak, as >compared to a Cessna 150... No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a torque ("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location. However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low speed means that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line before it even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the wing means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than the free stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either direction depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector. -Dana -- New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil liberties or the U.S. Constitution. -- kugelair.com


    Message 14


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    Time: 01:04:46 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Ah, another fan you've made, Dana. Congratulations, that Dale Carnegie course is working just fine. Rick Girard do not archive On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Ron @ KFHU <captainron1@cox.net> wrote: > > You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness or > belligerence, if you must say no you need to enter it after you made you > counter point or made your explanation. > P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the entire > effect of the propeller from induced drag to counter torque is at play, so > if you do not want to come across as an ignorant jerk trying to raise > yourself to a level of expertise that you have yet to show, you need to word > your answers quite differently. > > Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if there is > anything worth considering in it. > Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your Jerk > Off "No" is coming from. > So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is about. > You may be one of those jack asses where being civil to you indicates a > weakness, I run into people like that every so often and after I get over > their * rudeness * I respond to them in the manner that they understand and > deserve, so thread carefully especially if you don't know who you are > talking to Dana. Trust me when I say to you that I am way better than you at > flaming, so if you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this > entire list but also come out on the short end of the stick. > > > Ron @ KFHU > > =========================== > ---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote: > > ============ > > At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: > >...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its > >moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty weak, as > >compared to a Cessna 150... > > No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a torque > ("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location. > > However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two > things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low speed means > that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a > larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line before it > even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the wing > means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than the free > stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either direction > depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector. > > -Dana > > -- > New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland > Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil > liberties or the U.S. Constitution. > > > -- > kugelair.com > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 01:31:14 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    Trust me when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list but also come out on the short end of the stick. > > > Ron @ KFHU Captain Ron: Looks like your post would have been better sent back copy and not to the Kolb List. I can't find anything in it Kolb related. Thanks, john h mkIII


    Message 16


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    Time: 01:57:48 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    Dana wrote: > > Is that the way it's supposed to be? I was under the impression that the > low boom Kolbs had the boom tube angled upwards from the pod in level > flight, so if the thrust line was parallel to the boom you'd get P-factor > in the opposite direction, i.e. a RH turning prop would then cause a right > turning tendency. > > -Dana > Well the thrust line wasn't parallel to the boom tube on mine, it was basically in line with the chord of the main wing. So in flight it all "lined up" as far as I could tell, the wing flying at some small positive AoA and maybe the prop disk canted backwards a little with respect to the relative wind. The boom tube would "ride" pointing up a bit. So if there was any P factor at cruise it would have been trying to yaw to the left. My plane did have trim tabs on an aileron and on the rudder but I don't remember which way they were oriented. And also, the left rudder was needed generally only on the takeoff roll. I don't remember much of anything like having to trim once it was in the air. I don't see how it could have been anything else but the corkscrewing airflow as torque and P factor effects on the ground or at high AoA's were all acting in the opposite direction. Could be why my titan doesn't need much rudder at t/o - it's got about 800,000 times more torque and P factor than my FSII did with the 912 100 horse and the huge honking powerfin on it. That may be enough to cancel out the corkscrewing airflow on the vertical stab?.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253230#253230


    Message 17


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    Time: 02:12:51 PM PST US
    From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    At 11:23 AM 7/15/09 -0500, you wrote: > John, > >Relative wind has affected every aircraft I ever flew, fixed and rotary >wing. The fix was step on the ball and get it centered. > Once again, my point is that if your plane is well trimmed out at cruise, you will not have to step on the ball. > >Cork screw prop wash, on my mkIII, is not theory. > I should have said, I believe the effects are greatly over rated in comparison to propeller torque reaction. > > Mine keeps the ball of the slip/skid indicator centered. > I am pleased that you do not have to step on the ball, it becomes tiresome. > >I agree with the above, but not enough to try and correct at normal cruise. >I think my cruise speed is what the aircraft was designed for. If I slow it >down in comparison to the way you fly, everything changes, including the >prop angle of attack in relative wind. > I have never indicated that you or anyone should slow down to FireFly cruise speed. I have always used the words "trimmed for cruise". You have already indicated that you kick the ball to center and then that you don't need to. > >Never seen or flown a Kolb aircraft that did not have more than enough prop >wash over the tail to take care of any situation. If there is not enough >prop wash over your FF's tail, it is because you have screwed it up >adjusting prop thrust lines and flying with under powered engines. > Thank you, my underpowered FireFly can easily exceed 55 knots and I am very pleased with the effortless way it flys. > >There are occassions when a burst of full throttle is all that saved my mkIII from >ground looping, as experienced during my flight from Gallup, NM, to MV, >while landing at Chinle, AZ. > John, you decided to move your landing gear foward and to run large low pressure tires. The further the cg is behind the landing gear the pilot must exercise greater skill to prevent ground looping. > >I am happy with my mkIII after nearly 3,000 hours and 17 years living with >and flying it. You would not be happy with my mkIII and I would not be >happy with your FF, the way you have it set up. > This is a little presumptous. That is what makes the Kolb >List what it is. If I don't happen to agree with someone, doesn't mean I >don't like them or what they are doing. Just not the way I do it. > >I don't tell folks how to do it. I try to share what I do and let you all >pick and choose what they want, if anything. > I believe this is a good philosophy. >Getting ready to get out of here in the morning. Got a long boring 800 >miles to fly in some really hot, humid, hazy weather. It gets worse as I >get further NE, closer to the larger population centers. I also have to >contend with the Washington DC restricted area. Going to make me fly >further north and west than I would normally. Thanks to the terrorists!!! > John, have a good trip and keep the ball centered. (joke) Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN


    Message 18


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    Time: 03:41:35 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: gas
    no..... (just HAD to say that:) Very pretty day here for once. Actually made it to 80F. I was puttering around on the car, getting it ready for NYS inspection but really felt the urge to aviate. As I have previously posted I had been having mysterious fuel/carb problems. Thought I gone through just about everything and the plane seemed ok. While it was warming up and I was wiping bug crap it died. -That took the edge off my enthusiasm. I knew it was still fuel. I pulled the line off the filter and ran the master. Yellow fuel came out followed by a lighter color. I cleaned the float valve with carb cleaner, drained the tank and refilled with fresh. Purged some more and hooked it back up. Seems ok again, visited a couple of neighbors, made a go-around over the trees on one guy's short lumpy strip after a bounced landing. Still getting used to those legs. I don't like that gas problem. Never had it before after 40 years of running car gas. My neighbor winters near Ft Meyers and was talking to a boat dealer there. Said he has never had as many boat engines suffering fuel problems. BTW, I DO clean the tanks every spring and put in fresh gas and change the filter. The stuff I took out of the tank today was definitely darker in color than the fresh gas. All I can advise is to pour a sample of every can into a clear container and look at it. I hate &%#? ethanol. BB MkIII suzuki


    Message 19


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    Time: 03:50:10 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: gas
    > BTW, I DO clean the tanks every spring and put in fresh gas and > change the filter. The stuff I took out of the tank today > was definitely darker in color than the fresh gas. All I can advise is > to pour a sample of every can into > a clear container and look at it. > > I hate &%#? ethanol. > BB > MkIII suzuki Bob B: I have been running more 100LL than mogas lately. Since I don't fly much locally any more, I like having 100LL in the tank and fuel system. It stores much better than ethanol laced fuel. No problems yet. john h mkIII


    Message 20


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    Time: 04:12:20 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: gas
    John, I think I will start doing that too, especially considering how few hours I fly anyway. This gas situation gives me the willies, heebie jeebies, and there's a golfer's term for it too,I forget. (the YIPS?) Say hi to the folks in PA and if you are ambitious and the weather is bad going home, stop up here and cool off. I'll buy you a tank of 100LL BB On 15, Jul 2009, at 6:46 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > BTW, I DO clean the tanks every spring and put in fresh gas and >> change the filter. The stuff I took out of the tank today >> was definitely darker in color than the fresh gas. All I can >> advise is to pour a sample of every can into >> a clear container and look at it. >> >> I hate &%#? ethanol. >> BB >> MkIII suzuki > > > Bob B: > > I have been running more 100LL than mogas lately. > > Since I don't fly much locally any more, I like having 100LL in the > tank and fuel system. It stores much better than ethanol laced > fuel. No problems yet. > > john h > mkIII > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 04:12:20 PM PST US
    From: russ kinne <russ@rkiphoto.com>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    Ron I don't know you, but please don't re-start this business of insulting other people on the list. Like your saying 'ignorant jerk', 'jerk-off no', 'jackasses', 'uncivil', & even 'rudeness' and 'belligerance' None of us need that. It's counterproductive. We had a lot of that some time ago, from another Kolber. We need no more 'flaming' Please stop. Thanx Russ K On Jul 15, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Ron @ KFHU wrote: > > You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness > or belligerence, if you must say no you need to enter it after you > made you counter point or made your explanation. > P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the > entire effect of the propeller from induced drag to counter torque > is at play, so if you do not want to come across as an ignorant > jerk trying to raise yourself to a level of expertise that you have > yet to show, you need to word your answers quite differently. > > Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if > there is anything worth considering in it. > Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your > Jerk Off "No" is coming from. > So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is > about. > You may be one of those jack asses where being civil to you > indicates a weakness, I run into people like that every so often > and after I get over their * rudeness * I respond to them in the > manner that they understand and deserve, so thread carefully > especially if you don't know who you are talking to Dana. Trust me > when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if > you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list > but also come out on the short end of the stick. > > > Ron @ KFHU > > =========================== > ---- Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote: > > ============ > > At 11:33 AM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: >> ...The Kolb thrust line is pretty close to its center of mass so its >> moment arm for affecting deviation from flight path is pretty >> weak, as >> compared to a Cessna 150... > > No, the effect of P-factor is a torque around the yaw axis, and a > torque > ("couple" in engineering terms) is independent of location. > > However, P-factor is a factor of the relative wind, and there are two > things on a Kolb that would tend to reduce it. First, the low > speed means > that the propeller induced inflow (air is "sucked" into the prop) is a > larger factor, tending to align the airflow with the thrust line > before it > even gets to the prop. Second, the location of the prop behind the > wing > means that it's operating in the wing induced downflow rather than > the free > stream direction. This latter could cause a P-factor in either > direction > depending on the thrust line and the direction of the downflow vector. > > -Dana > > -- > New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland > Security: Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil > liberties or the U.S. Constitution. > > > -- > kugelair.com > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 05:11:54 PM PST US
    From: Lanny Fetterman <donaho1@verizon.net>
    Subject: Gas
    Just this year I started using Marine Sta-Bil in all the 92 octane gas I run in the 503. It says it will take care of all the things that concern me about ethanol. We will see. Lanny FSII


    Message 23


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    Time: 05:11:54 PM PST US
    From: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    That's correct it was not meant for public consumption. My apologies to all. Ron ============= ---- John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: ============ Trust me when I say to you that I am way better than you at flaming, so if you choose to be uncivil not only will you disturb this entire list but also come out on the short end of the stick. > > > Ron @ KFHU Captain Ron: Looks like your post would have been better sent back copy and not to the Kolb List. I can't find anything in it Kolb related. Thanks, john h mkIII -- kugelair.com


    Message 24


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    Time: 07:43:32 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Victor 1+ Report
    At 03:50 PM 7/15/2009, Ron @ KFHU wrote: >You should not start a post with a "no", as that indicates rudeness or >belligerence, if you must say no you need to enter it after you made you >counter point or made your explanation. >P-Factor is short for propeller factor Dana, in other words the entire >effect of the propeller from induced drag to counter torque is at play, so >if you do not want to come across as an ignorant jerk trying to raise >yourself to a level of expertise that you have yet to show, you need to >word your answers quite differently. > >Having said that now let me read the rest of your post, and see if there >is anything worth considering in it. >Okay I read the rest of your message and I am not seeing where your Jerk >Off "No" is coming from. >So post your explanation as to what exactly your " jerk off " no is about. >You may be one of those jack asses... What on earth is your problem? You made an incorrect statement, I said so and explained why it was incorrect. Would it have been better if I said, "Um, gee, I'm terribly sorry, but I think you may have made a teeny weeny little mistake, I think you might be mistaken..."? Your own reaction to being corrected is the way of an "ignorant jerk" (your words, not mine, I prefer to be polite). I am quite aware of what P-factor is (a more accurate term is "asymmetric blade thrust"), they kinda taught us about it when I was earning a degree in aerospace engineering 30 years ago... and they taught it in ground school when I was learning to fly around the same time. Now, go back and read my post, where I fully explained what the "no" was about. If you want to discuss it further, ask politely, without comments about "ignorant jerks" and "jack asses". -Dana -- The number of elected federal officials is limited to congress, the president and the vice president. That's only 537 people. The federal bureaucracy numbers in the millions.....


    Message 25


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    Time: 08:04:16 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: gas
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    Pure auto gas went away here completely a few months ago so I started running it around that time. Fortunately no problems as the tank was already very clean to begin with. What I do is start robbing gas out of the plane with the siphon if I don't get to fly for longer than about 2 weeks. I burn it in the truck which usually needs gas anyway. This way, the tank always has freshly pumped gas in it one way or the other when I go fly. We live in a dry climate so this may be a little paranoid I'll admit but it has worked to keep my fuel system clean so far. I've been lucky and have been able to go up and get the motor to operating temp at least once a week but sometimes I'm grounded longer than that. There's an attempt being made now to increase the ethanol concentrations to 15% by the ethanol industry. If it goes through (and I'll bet a million that it does) then I'll have no choice but to go back to 100LL. 100LL keeps a lot better anyway as John H. says..... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253270#253270


    Message 26


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    Time: 08:15:24 PM PST US
    From: Herb <herbgh@nctc.com>
    Subject: Re: Gas
    Wondering if a quart of av gas mixed with a tank of rot gut would act similarly to Sta Bil? Herb At 07:04 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote: > >Just this year I started using Marine Sta-Bil in all the 92 octane >gas I run in the 503. It says it will take care of all the things >that concern me about ethanol. We will see. Lanny FSII > > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >07/15/09 17:58:00


    Message 27


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    Time: 08:28:18 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition
    From: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan@earthlink.net>
    A little about mid range jetting. Moving the clip has most effect from about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. Changing the needle jet effect from about 1/8 to 3/4 throttle. The reason this works is that the clip only changes when the needle starts to taper in the jet. This does not happen until the throttle is opened a bit. Changing the needle jet diameter effects the fuel flowing past the needle at all positions. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253273#253273


    Message 28


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    Time: 08:34:38 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Rudder springs
    While flying this evening I reflected on the fact that the rudder pedal forces seem disproportionately higher than the other control forces. Part of this is due to the fact that I moved the rudder cable attach point from the original position midway up the pedal (per the plans) to the top of the pedal. This gives more rudder deflection for a given amount of pedal deflection, which makes it more comfortable to turn on the ground, but also increases the pedal force. However, another reason for the force is the heavy springs in front of the pedals. These are necessary, of course, to keep the cables taut, but the also exert a fairly heavy centering force. My thought was to replace the springs with an additional cable around a pulley (or two pulleys) to complete the circuit and keep the tension, without the centering tendency. There might need to be a short spring in line with the new cable to take up any total length variation due to the geometry as it moves through the range of motion (I haven't analyzed it to see if this would be necessary), but it wouldn't provide the heavy centering force the original setup gives. Thoughts? Anybody seen this done before? -Dana -- Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.


    Message 29


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    Time: 09:03:52 PM PST US
    Subject: 447 problem
    From: Robert Laird <rlaird@cavediver.com>
    I've been flying in front of a 912ULS for many years, but am now also flying (again) in front of a 447... and I'm already missing the reliability! Ok, so, I'm flying along for 40 minutes, and everything is cool. I'm flying straight-and-level, no throttle changes, just cruising, then suddenly the rpms drop 1000rpm, from about 6200 to 5200, then after a moment, it surges back up to 6200. Then about 3-4 seconds later, it does the same thing. Luckily, I'm near the airport, so I make a bee-line to the runway and land safely. As I land, at the lower throttle settings, it seems okay. After I land, it seems to work fine while I taxi. I get back to the hangar and let it cool off. The tank was almost dry (had about a gallon left) by that point, so I put in fresh gas (always using Mr. Funnel). After it's cooled off, I try to start it, and it starts right up. It idles normally, then I taxi out and try it again. I circle the airport 3 or 4 times, at around 600-700 feet, and after 10 minutes the wind starts coming up, so I decide I'll cut this test flight short. Right about then, it starts doing it again... I hadn't made any altitude changes, throttle changes, and the tank this time was full. So, it's not bad fuel. The system pressurizes okay when I use the squeeze bulb and, as I said, it starts right up. No other indications that I can see or hear of anything wrong. I'm going to check the plugs tomorrow, but it runs just fine. My only guess is that maybe the mechanical fuel pump is on it's last legs and can't keep the bowl full. I've got a Facet pump that I think I'll plumb in parallel and turn it on throughout a flight, to see if that helps. Anyone else have any ideas what it might be? -- Robert


    Message 30


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    Time: 10:18:30 PM PST US
    From: "Carlos" <grageda@innw.net>
    Subject: Re: 447 problem
    Hi Bob, You may wish to check the float bowl to see if there is anything floating around in there. If the pump is failing, there could be bits of rubber diaphragm getting into the bowl. It seems now matter how many filters you have, dirt always seems to get past them. Hope this helps BaronVonEvil Firestar II Rotax 447 ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Laird To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:58 PM Subject: Kolb-List: 447 problem I've been flying in front of a 912ULS for many years, but am now also flying (again) in front of a 447... and I'm already missing the reliability! Ok, so, I'm flying along for 40 minutes, and everything is cool. I'm flying straight-and-level, no throttle changes, just cruising, then suddenly the rpms drop 1000rpm, from about 6200 to 5200, then after a moment, it surges back up to 6200. Then about 3-4 seconds later, it does the same thing. Luckily, I'm near the airport, so I make a bee-line to the runway and land safely. As I land, at the lower throttle settings, it seems okay. After I land, it seems to work fine while I taxi. I get back to the hangar and let it cool off. The tank was almost dry (had about a gallon left) by that point, so I put in fresh gas (always using Mr. Funnel). After it's cooled off, I try to start it, and it starts right up. It idles normally, then I taxi out and try it again. I circle the airport 3 or 4 times, at around 600-700 feet, and after 10 minutes the wind starts coming up, so I decide I'll cut this test flight short. Right about then, it starts doing it again... I hadn't made any altitude changes, throttle changes, and the tank this time was full. So, it's not bad fuel. The system pressurizes okay when I use the squeeze bulb and, as I said, it starts right up. No other indications that I can see or hear of anything wrong. I'm going to check the plugs tomorrow, but it runs just fine. My only guess is that maybe the mechanical fuel pump is on it's last legs and can't keep the bowl full. I've got a Facet pump that I think I'll plumb in parallel and turn it on throughout a flight, to see if that helps. Anyone else have any ideas what it might be? -- Robert




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