---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/02/09: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:52 AM - FSII (Ted Cowan) 2. 04:20 AM - Re: FSII (frank.goodnight) 3. 06:25 AM - Re: EGT quirk (cristalclear13) 4. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: EGT quirk (John Hauck) 5. 06:52 AM - Slingshot home in Buffalo (Thom Riddle) 6. 07:05 AM - Re: FSII (Larry Cottrell) 7. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: EGT quirk (Beauford T) 8. 08:28 AM - Re: FSII (John Hauck) 9. 09:18 AM - Re: Greetings (Dave Kulp) 10. 09:39 AM - Leaking exhaust manifold (Herb) 11. 09:43 AM - Re: FSII (Larry Cottrell) 12. 09:53 AM - Re: Kolb-list: Firestar II (Larry Cottrell) 13. 09:54 AM - Re: Leaking exhaust manifold (John Hauck) 14. 12:02 PM - Re: FSII (lucien) 15. 12:10 PM - Re: FSII (lucien) 16. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: FSII (Larry Cottrell) 17. 12:49 PM - Re: Greetings (Tom O'Hara) 18. 01:49 PM - Re: Picking up my new wings (planecrazzzy) 19. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: EGT quirk (Richard Girard) 20. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: Picking up my new wings (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 21. 06:13 PM - Re: FSII (Jimmy Young) 22. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: FSII (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:46 AM PST US From: "Ted Cowan" Subject: Kolb-List: FSII Just might be me but I would think 650-700 fpm climb would be bad. I mean, a FSII with 60 or so horses up top would have a whole lot better climb. I have access to a FSII with a 503 and it climbs better than 1000 fpm. Maybe even closer to 1200 most of the time. I had an original FS with a 447 that climbed a whole lot better than that. What gives? Ted Cowan, Alabama, Slingshot 912 ul. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:05 AM PST US From: "frank.goodnight" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Hi Ted, My firestar 2 with the 60 hp HKS and at gros wt. of 725 lbs climbs at somewhere around 700 ft per min on a 100 degree day with a relitive humidity about 90%I would like to have the numbers you have but just don"t. tjere are a couple of other HKS firestars around., wonder how they do? Frank goodnight Firestar2 HKS Brownsville TX On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:41 AM, Ted Cowan wrote: > > Just might be me but I would think 650-700 fpm climb would be bad. > I mean, a FSII with 60 or so horses up top would have a whole lot > better climb. I have access to a FSII with a 503 and it climbs > better than 1000 fpm. Maybe even closer to 1200 most of the time. > I had an original FS with a 447 that climbed a whole lot better than > that. What gives? Ted Cowan, Alabama, Slingshot 912 ul. > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:06 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: EGT quirk From: "cristalclear13" aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: > Cristal, The concern with needle clips is that they be so tight on the needle that the needle will not turn in the clip. Engine vibration will cause the needle to turn in the clip and will gradually turn down the needle until it wears through. Another update to prevent this is a small o-ring that sits on top of the clip and under the spring cup. I'm sure you already know this, but you didn't mention it so...... > > Rick Girard The small o-ring was mentioned/required by my DAR when I got my airworthiness certificate two years ago November, but thanks for mentioning. The new needle clip seemed more sturdy of a design. I didn't see any wear on the needle itself. zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: > Christal > Remember that there are 4 gaskets on the 503 exhaust.2 under the tin shroud to the block and 2 on top of the shroud to the manifold.JBM makes a tough gasket for all the Rotax engines at a better price.Any leak there will change the tuning of the engine.You may not have a carb problem. > G.Aman > -- I replaced all four gaskets. The leak was less after changing them but still there. Maybe I'll try the ones from JBM. Not looking forward to the operation though. That was really a pain changing out those inside gaskets (as mentioned in a previous thread). -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255623#255623 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:44 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: EGT quirk > I replaced all four gaskets. The leak was less after changing them but still there. Maybe I'll try the ones from JBM. Not looking forward to the operation though. That was really a pain changing out those inside gaskets (as mentioned in a previous thread). > > -------- > Cristal Waters Rotax two strokes, in my day, were notorious for leaking/oozing a black gook between the exhaust manifold and the cylinder. If it was mine, and there was no actual "exhaust gas leak", I'd wipe it down once in a while, and keep on flying. I doubt that is going to change the tuning. However, if it was bad enough to leak exhaust gas, then I'd go to the trouble of replacing gaskets. Seems as though there could have been a better system than sandwiching the cooling tin between the manifold and the cylinder, but no one ever came up with a better way. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Slingshot home in Buffalo From: "Thom Riddle" Friday, a friend drove me 300 miles from Lancaster, NY to Lancaster, PA. We inspected Luray's Slingshot and found it as advertised and I bought it. Saturday AM, I flew it around the patch in marginal weather waiting for the forecast clear skies to appear at 11AM. I was finally able to head out a little after noon. Events of consequence: Right before departing, the main relay fuse holder broke, so we took it out of the circuit, twisted the wires together, crimped them and taped it off out of the way. Luray used the fuse as his "key". Remove it and there is not power to the bus. The frequent removal and replacement of the fuse finally resulted in the fuse holder breaking. It is not designed for that kind of service but it worked for him for several years, until it didn't. I'll probably install a circuit breaker instead of fuse holder. Not sure yet what I'll do for a "key". When I was approaching my fuel stop mid-way home, the radio that I borrowed from Luray died. It was supposed to be on ship power but apparently somehow it came off of ship power and the battery petered out. Fortunately, no traffic at the time of my arrival or departure nor was there at my home airport when I got there. About the time the radio died, the forward end of the left rudder pedal return spring came unhooked. I didn't know it at the time but found out shortly after touching down at my fuel stop airport. I got a little crooked and added right rudder but over did it a little (maiden flight in the airplane, so no surprise there) but in the process I let my foot off of the left rudder pedal and it flopped down flat on the floor, so I had no left rudder control. Got rather interesting at that point with one wheel off the ground but with lots of aileron/roll control I managed to keep it dirty side down. Once it slowed to a crawl I managed to lift the rudder pedal off the floor and taxied up to the fuel pumps and filled her up. I could not fix the spring there so I just made certain that I would never let my foot completely off the left rudder pedal on the rest of the trip. Total flight time was 3.5 hours and I average about 3.75 gph at about 70% power. My typical ground speed was around 82-83 mph in nearly calm winds but did get up to a bit over 90 in a descent. The airplane handles beautifully and the higher wing loading made the thermals less exciting during the hot afternoon than the big wing Kolbs experience. Happy to be a Kolber again. I'm also happy with the Jabiru engine. It performed flawlessly with stable temps right in the middle of the green range, plenty of power, and good economy. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255625#255625 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:58 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII I have flown my Firestar II with a 447, first at 280 lbs empty weight. It flew well, but I had no way to tell what the climb rate was. Then with a 503, but by that time I had powder coated the cage, put on enough auto paint to fill the weave of the fabric and a lot of more stuff to add weight. At my altitude with a Garmin 196 as the only way to measure my climb, and I never saw more than 350 fpm. Now with a HKS and a plane that apparently weighs in at 460 I can see climbs of 4 to 500 fpm. This is all at 4000 feet altitude. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Cowan To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:41 AM Subject: Kolb-List: FSII Just might be me but I would think 650-700 fpm climb would be bad. I mean, a FSII with 60 or so horses up top would have a whole lot better climb. I have access to a FSII with a 503 and it climbs better than 1000 fpm. Maybe even closer to 1200 most of the time. I had an original FS with a 447 that climbed a whole lot better than that. What gives? Ted Cowan, Alabama, Slingshot 912 ul. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 08/01/09 18:04:00 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:08 AM PST US From: "Beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: EGT quirk Miss Cristal: One other thing you might consider checking on the carb which is running rich is the enrichment or "choke" piston. If this little piston is not fully seating due to misadjusted cable, crud in the seat, or deteriorated rubber seal in the base of the piston, it can easily produce the symptoms you describe. A small leak in the enrichment circuit can produce substantial effects. Worth what ye paid fer it... beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "cristalclear13" Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 9:24 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: EGT quirk > Rick Girard The small o-ring was mentioned/required by my DAR when I got my airworthiness certificate two years ago November, but thanks for mentioning. The new needle clip seemed more sturdy of a design. I didn't see any wear on the needle itself. -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:20 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Larry C: Hard for folks, that fly at sea level, to fully grasp the degradation of pe rformance caused by altitude and density altitude. Us flat land, sea level guys are always in for a rude awakening the first f ew days we spend on our trips out West. My airplane, with seemingly unlimi ted performance at sea level, suddenly will not leap off the ground, barely climbs, and has a habit of dropping out of the sky during higher altitude approaches. Based on cargo weight and altitude, I think Frank G's FSII performed admira bly at Monument Valley, UT, this year, flying off a strip at 5,200 feet ASL. john h mkIII I have flown my Firestar II with a 447, first at 280 lbs empty weight. It flew well, but I had no way to tell what the climb rate was. Then with a 5 03, but by that time I had powder coated the cage, put on enough auto paint to fill the weave of the fabric and a lot of more stuff to add weight. At my altitude with a Garmin 196 as the only way to measure my climb, and I ne ver saw more than 350 fpm. Now with a HKS and a plane that apparently weigh s in at 460 I can see climbs of 4 to 500 fpm. This is all at 4000 feet alti tude. Larry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:38 AM PST US From: Dave Kulp Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Greetings Hi Bob, I have a FireFly at a grass strip on Engler Rd., near Nazareth, PA. Mostly flying the patch yet, but if the weather ever stabilizes I'll be dining at Butter Valley, etc. Shame Kutztown has closed! BTW, did you have an ultralight visible from Rt. 222 a short time back? Dave Kulp FireFly 11DMK ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:29 AM PST US From: Herb Subject: Kolb-List: Leaking exhaust manifold On other engines, I have seen a warped flange on the exhaust tee that can be trued up with a mill or belt sander...Herb ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:03 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII You will be happy to know that this time I already have my winter wood supply, split and put up. The only thing that can interfere with my gypsy ways is the two birds that I will have to be flying. :-) Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hauck To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Larry C: Hard for folks, that fly at sea level, to fully grasp the degradation of performance caused by altitude and density altitude. Us flat land, sea level guys are always in for a rude awakening the first few days we spend on our trips out West. My airplane, with seemingly unlimited performance at sea level, suddenly will not leap off the ground, barely climbs, and has a habit of dropping out of the sky during higher altitude approaches. Based on cargo weight and altitude, I think Frank G's FSII performed admirably at Monument Valley, UT, this year, flying off a strip at 5,200 feet ASL. john h mkIII I have flown my Firestar II with a 447, first at 280 lbs empty weight. It flew well, but I had no way to tell what the climb rate was. Then with a 503, but by that time I had powder coated the cage, put on enough auto paint to fill the weave of the fabric and a lot of more stuff to add weight. At my altitude with a Garmin 196 as the only way to measure my climb, and I never saw more than 350 fpm. Now with a HKS and a plane that apparently weighs in at 460 I can see climbs of 4 to 500 fpm. This is all at 4000 feet altitude. Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 08/02/09 05:56:00 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:49 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Kolb-List: re: Kolb-list: Firestar II OOps, sorry, too fast a finger, I had intended to send it back copy to John, rather than brag about it to the list. :-/ Larry ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:44 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Leaking exhaust manifold > On other engines, I have seen a warped flange on the exhaust tee > that can be trued up with a mill or belt sander...Herb That reminds me. I have truing bars for the aircooled and water cooled Rotax aircraft engines. Might not hurt to have a machine shop true the mating surface of the manifold. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:20 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII From: "lucien" tc1917(at)bellsouth.net wrote: > Just might be me but I would think 650-700 fpm climb would be bad. I mean, > a FSII with 60 or so horses up top would have a whole lot better climb. I > have access to a FSII with a 503 and it climbs better than 1000 fpm. Maybe > even closer to 1200 most of the time. I had an original FS with a 447 that > climbed a whole lot better than that. What gives? Ted Cowan, Alabama, > Slingshot 912 ul. At sea level, that's not too bad. Tho my FSII with the 503, 3.47:1 C box and 68" WD 3 blade taper tip did around 1000 fpm at about 2000' MSL density altitude. Plane was 440lbs empty so a little on the heavy side. The plane is pretty much tailor-made for the 503 so that motor probably gives the best performance unless you overpower it with something else. But 700 fpm is not that bad. I'm assuming you're talking about Jimmy's report with his with the new HKS fitted? There's a little more weight and probably more drag with the extra surface area on top, but still that's pretty decent. At high density altitudes, tho, I dunno. I got between 300 and 400 fpm here in northern NM at density altitudes of about 8000' MSL with the 503 leaned out as much as I dared. Flyable, but a little nerve-wracking until the houses started getting a little smaller. I don't know how an HKS equipped one would do.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255674#255674 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > Larry C: > > Hard for folks, that fly at sea level, to fully grasp the degradation of performance caused by altitude and density altitude. > > Us flat land, sea level guys are always in for a rude awakening the first few days we spend on our trips out West. My airplane, with seemingly unlimited performance at sea level, suddenly will not leap off the ground, barely climbs, and has a habit of dropping out of the sky during higher altitude approaches. > > Based on cargo weight and altitude, I think Frank G's FSII performed admirably at Monument Valley, UT, this year, flying off a strip at 5,200 feet ASL. > > john h > mkIII > A 503 equipped FS II will do ok at high DA's. Like I said, the typical DA where I fly is around 8000' MSL (it'll drop to 6000 to 7000' in winter) and my FS II was always flyable. Course we got super long runways all over the place up here, usually a mile long or more, because of our general lack of air. So I always still had runway underneath by the time I got to a safe altitude to turn away from the airport. Best performance was the first new years day I lived here, it was 11F and I recorded 400fpm. Worst was about 300fpm one evening in late summer where it was about 75F with density altitude around 8500' MSL. Landing and takeoff ground speeds are also noticeably higher at those density altitudes so that takes a little getting used to also.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255675#255675 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:14 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Even with the heavier weight, it would improve the 503's performance by about 2-300 fpm. Larry At high density altitudes, tho, I dunno. I got between 300 and 400 fpm here in northern NM at density altitudes of about 8000' MSL with the 503 leaned out as much as I dared. Flyable, but a little nerve-wracking until the houses started getting a little smaller. I don't know how an HKS equipped one would do.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255674#255674 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 08/02/09 05:56:00 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:52 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Greetings From: "Tom O'Hara" Dave-- Might have been me flying along 222. An all white MKIII-- mostly fly in the morning in a patch between Kutztown, New Tripoli, Butter Valley, Coopersburg. Tom Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255678#255678 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Picking up my new wings From: "planecrazzzy" Ellery, Are these new wings for the plane you picked up in Minnesota ??? If so.... What was wrong with the ones that came with the plane ? They had some corrosion... But I thought it could have been cleaned with a chemical ??? I'm guessing this is a different plane... Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" the Flying Dog JP-KMA -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255681#255681 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lift_strut_set_up13_507.jpg ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: EGT quirk From: Richard Girard It will make the replacement a bit tougher, but it will stop small leaks. Coat the gaskets with copper RTV, the ultra high temp stuff, and allow to cure before firing up the engine.Before the experts start hollering, this is a standard fix for Harley Shovelhead owners. The exhaust system is held on with a single bolt and weight keeps it seated. Been working for 15 plus years now even with the weight of a Supertrapp 2 into 1. Just so I'm not accused of theorizing. :-) Rick Girard do not archive On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Beauford T wrote: > > Miss Cristal: > One other thing you might consider checking on the carb which is > running rich is the enrichment or > "choke" piston. If this little piston is not fully seating due to > misadjusted cable, crud in > the seat, or deteriorated rubber seal in the base of the piston, it > can easily produce the > symptoms you describe. A small leak in the enrichment circuit can > produce substantial effects. > > Worth what ye paid fer it... > > beauford > FF-076 > Brandon, FL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cristalclear13" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 9:24 AM > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: EGT quirk > > > > > > Rick Girard > > > The small o-ring was mentioned/required by my DAR when I got my > airworthiness certificate two years ago November, but thanks for > mentioning. > > The new needle clip seemed more sturdy of a design. I didn't see any > wear on the needle itself. > > > -------- > Cristal Waters > Kolb Mark II Twinstar > Rotax 503 DCSI > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Picking up my new wings From: Ellery Batchelder Jr I picked up a completly different airplane? Mk3Classic from Florida I am tired of building for a while and got one almost ready to jump in? to get away from this planet I will probably sell the MK3Xtra Kit that I went to Minnesota to get or keep working on it to put it on floats? and have the best of two planes I dont have much time for building anyway right now Building planes is Fun but you cant make a good living doing it when people dont pay you. as soon as I get a decent day off I will be flying again? Ellery? -----Original Message----- From: planecrazzzy Sent: Sun, Aug 2, 2009 4:49 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Picking up my new wings Ellery, Are these new wings for the plane you picked up in Minnesota ??? If so.... What was wrong with the ones that came with the plane ? They had some corrosion... But I thought it could have been cleaned with a chemical ??? I'm guessing this is a different plane... Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" the Flying Dog JP-KMA -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255681#255681 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lift_strut_set_up13_507.jpg ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:20 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII From: "Jimmy Young" Cowan writes: >Just might be me but I would think 650-700 fpm climb would be bad. I mean, a FSII with 60 or so horses up top would have a whole lot better climb. I have access to a FSII with a 503 and it climbs better than 1000 fpm. Maybe even closer to 1200 most of the time. I had an original FS with a 447 that climbed a whole lot better than that. What gives? Ted Cowan, Alabama, Slingshot 912 ul.< Ted, Don't know what gives, but I've never gotten the cruise speeds some of the Firestar owners claim. I've got big tundra tires, my plane weighs 750 lbs. with me and 13 gal of fuel in it, I've got a heavier thicker tailwheel, I don't have a full enclosure, it's 100 degrees with 75 degree dew points here when I'm flying, so all those items figure into the equation. I'm sure some of the Firestars are lighter & more aerodynamic than mine, and I'm glad for them that they can get that kind of performance. But, I like the big tires and the wide tailwheel and they are staying on. I do wonder if installing the gull-wing type doors on my enclosure would help clean up my profile some, and wouldn't mind trying that some day. I remember when I had the 503 on, and the climb rates and cruise speeds were about the same with the 503 as what I've got now with the HKS. I flew today to the old airstrip I used to hanger at, and there is an 800 ft. strip there with 25 ft. trees at the end. I took off into a left-quartering wind, and was up and out easily. I'll probably never need to take off out of a strip tighter than that, so I'm tickled pink. I haven't used that runway since back when I had the 503 on. -------- Jimmy Young FS II, HKS 700 N7043P Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255706#255706 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:37 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FSII > I flew today to the old airstrip I used to hanger at, and there is an 800 ft. strip there with 25 ft. trees at the end. I took off into a left-quartering wind, and was up and out easily. I'll probably never need to take off out of a strip tighter than that, so I'm tickled pink. I haven't used that runway since back when I had the 503 on. > > -------- > Jimmy Young Good news, Jimmy. Now you can breeze out of Nauga Field. john h mkIII ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.