Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:43 AM - Re: Freak accident (lucien)
2. 04:24 AM - Re: Freak accident (Ralph B)
3. 06:09 AM - Re: Freak accident (John Hauck)
4. 06:20 AM - Re: Freak accident (John Hauck)
5. 06:21 AM - Fw: picture (zeprep251@aol.com)
6. 06:32 AM - Re: Fw: picture (John Hauck)
7. 07:42 AM - Re: Freak accident (Dave Kulp)
8. 09:16 AM - Re: Freak accident (Mike Welch)
9. 10:04 AM - Re: Freak accident (Dana Hague)
10. 12:28 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (Larry Cottrell)
11. 12:53 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (robert bean)
12. 03:53 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (Dana Hague)
13. 03:53 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (Dana Hague)
14. 04:12 PM - another way to push out that dent (Richard Girard)
15. 04:26 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308)
16. 04:36 PM - Re: Freak accident (possums)
17. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (possums)
18. 05:01 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308)
19. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Trip to 3 Forks (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
20. 06:24 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (JRatcli256@AOL.COM)
21. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (russ kinne)
22. 06:49 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308)
23. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (robert bean)
24. 07:59 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Freak accident |
undoctor wrote:
> I had an incident today I'd like to share both as a heads-up, and also
> looking for advice.
>
> When I came in today I taxied up to my hanger/trailer. I gave it a
> little throttle to get a bit closer and it seemed the engine didn't idle
> back when I pulled the throttle back. I put more pressure on the
> throttle to close it, and when I did, the engine revved up. Pressing
> the heel brakes kept it slow but I couldn't stop it and the right wing
> bumped the back of the trailer, putting a flat spot about 1" high by
> about 2" wide on the leading edge of my right wing about three and a
> half feet from the root.
>
> First, what I found out caused the mishap. Picture the throttle handle;
> when you push the throttle forward, the cable comes out of the cable
> housing straight forward. When you bring the handle back to idle, the
> cable re-enters the cable housing straight back. But when you move the
> throttle handle even further back (which is what I did in my sudden
> attempt to get the engine back to idle), it begins to pull the cable
> back out of the housing, straight down; which pulls the throttle on and
> you hit the trailer. To be forewarned...
>
> Now, the fix. There is nothing involved except a misshaped leading
> edge. I'm thinking if I get a piece of hardwood turned that I can slip
> into the tube from the root, when I reach the dent, I could gently tap
> it in and return the leading edge to the proper cylindrical shape. Kind
> of like the dies used to return an exhaust pipe to round. The wood is
> hard enough to bend the tubing out, but it won't scratch the inside of
> the tube as it's reshaping it.
>
> So, what do you think? Any input, cautions, other ideas, etc., will be
> enormously appreciated.
>
> Dave Kulp
> Bethlehem, PA
> FireFly 11DMK
My FSII had a couple dents in one of the leading edges from when the original builder
had to put it down in some Mesquite trees after an engine-out (at only
6 hours, ouch - he was totally devastated and the pictures in the builders log
were just painful to look at). They weren't deep enough to actually compromise
the spar tho and didn't actually bend anything up. So he just flew it like that
after the repairs for the next 400 hours (and I flew it like that for another
100 or so ;)).
As for the throttle cable, I'd go ahead and replace it if the carb slides can't
retract the cables easily and completely. You can mitigate it for a while with
silicone lube, but that generally means the inside of the housing is worn and
giving friction which it shouldn't.
On my FSII, the builder put stops on the throttle quadrant to prevent it from going
too far in either direction. The stops should correspond with the limits
of travel of the slide, especially in the full open position - if you're able
to force it past full open the results can be extremely expensive.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256119#256119
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Subject: | Re: Freak accident |
I have just the solution for you. For small dents, use the Poly Fiber light weight
epoxy. Take the finishing tape off the leading edge if you have it, apply
the epoxy liberally, sand to a smooth finish, apply new tape, and paint. I sanded
mine by hand and made a template of cardboard to check the leading edge curve
as I was sanding. If you do it right, it looks like there never was a dent.
Ralph B
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
22 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
1 year flying it
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256121#256121
Attachments:
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http://forums.matronics.com//files/after_sanding__310.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/after_application_1__150.jpg
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Subject: | Re: Freak accident |
> What did the tool look like, how did it work?
>
> -Dana
Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it.
The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing, cut at a long gentle angle,
catty-corner long ways from end to end. Sheet metal faces were then welded
to both cut sides. A steel rod was welded to each piece of the tool.
The tool was inserted into the inboard end of the leading edge tube, one
piece at a time. The two beveled pieces were then pulled together forcing
the dent out.
The split pieces allowed the user to insert the tool past the rivets.
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Freak accident |
The area of the wing that works the hardest is from the leading edge
rearward to the main spar.
My 5 rib FS carried the aircraft with 10 rib noses made of .028" wall
5/16" aluminum tubing, 5 on each wing panel. That ain't much for the
way I asked my FS to work.
In order for the wing sections to work correctly, those little rib noses
have to be kept in column. One of the primary jobs of the leading edge
is to help keep the rib noses in column. If the leading edge
bends/shifts laterally, it pulls the noses out of column. Lateral
bracing of the leading edge is extremely important.
The 5/16" tubing called for in the plans of the US and FS for lateral
bracing had a habit of breaking due to vibration and stress. Once these
broke, the only thing holding the rib noses in column was the bow tip.
Some years ago I posted some photos of the results of leading edge
failure of both wings of my FS, which failed up and rearward to the main
spar, in flight of course.
I'd resend the photos of the failure, but I don't know exactly what DVD
they are on or where it is right now.
john h
mkIII
John, I'm having difficulty with your concept of " the leading edges
and the first 18 or so inches back to the main spar carry most of the
load of the aircraft" The leading edge is connected to the spar by the
ribs but not the the fuselage or the spar carry through. I just don't
see the load path. Would you elaborate?
Rick Girard
Message 5
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Richard,
??? We had that issue on a HKS on a Hawk.The mount does not expand but the aluminum
cooler will expand .015 for every inch of length as it heats up.We used these
hourglass mounts from JBM
to secure the cooler.That was 4 years ago so I can't say how long they will last,but
so far so good.
? Might try JBM's stainless steel springs on the exhaust also.? G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: Don James <jbmindustries@att.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:00 am
Subject: picture
?
?
Donald James
JBM Industries
Kent, Ohio?
44240?? USA
?
330-678-9537
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: picture |
Gary:
Looks a lot like the Rotax 582 radiator shock mounts I use on my
coolers.
john h
mkIII
The mount does not expand but the aluminum cooler will expand .015 for
every inch of length as it heats up.We used these hourglass mounts from
JBM
to secure the cooler. G.Aman
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Subject: | Re: Freak accident |
Not sure it's an issue anyay. There's a similar dent on the LE of my
UltraStar, was there when I bought it. Aside from cutting and
peeling the
fabric back around it to make sure there was no crack, I haven't
worried
about it. There's not a lot of stress on the LE tube anyway (it
would be a
very different story on something like a Quicksilver where the LE
tube IS
the spar).
Sounds like what you really need is a stop to limit the throttle
lever travel.
-Dana
Dana, John, Kip, Rich,
Thanks for your input. Though I'm not educated in engineering, the
logic of my thinking was that it isn't a critical issue, and no one is
screaming "DON'T FLY IT." Quite a relief.
After I get a wood shop to turn the wood "ramrod" I'd envisioned, I plan
on running it through my table saw and putting a kerf along it's length
to accommodate the rivets. I also plan on rounding the leading edge (of
the ramrod) to gently push the indent out, rather than a square edge,
which would tend to "suddenly" push it out and stress the metal at the
bend points.
But, if anyone knows anyone who has the tool mentioned, I'd love to pay
freight here and back to use that rather than "building" a wood ram.
I'd had it mentioned to me; goes in narrow and once in place you turn a
screw mechanism which spreads the two halves. If no one knows of one in
the system it might be a good investment for a machinist to make one to
rent out, from the way it sounds!
10/4 on the stop, Dana! Never even crossed my mind that that could
happen, but it certainly is a consideration now! Kip, the carb does
pull the cable back in, but I have the throttle tensioned like a GA so I
can leave go of the throttle when I'm at altitude and maintain my RPM
setting. This occurred because the throttle handle has no stop and I
went past the point where the cable was all the way into the housing and
began to pull back out when I was required to act very hastily and went
beyond the idle position. And John, it sounds like Fortune is your
co-pilot. The windshield could have put a serious dent in your face
when it departed, rather than the leading edge of your wing!!
Again, thanks to all of you, sure is nice to have tons of hours
experience available for things like this. And if anyone knows the
whereabouts of an Undenting Machine I'd love to be put in touch with it.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
Message 8
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John=2C
Very good description. I=2C too=2C have a small dent in my leading edge
tube that I need to push back out. The tool you describe is pretty much wh
at I intended on building.
Essentially=2C the tool functions much like a muffler pipe expansion tool
....only it's fashioned to be at the end of a piece of metal rod.
Mike Welch
MkIII collecting dust
> From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Freak accident
> Date: Wed=2C 5 Aug 2009 08:02:37 -0500
>
>
>
> > What did the tool look like=2C how did it work?
> >
> > -Dana
>
>
> Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it.
>
> The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing=2C cut at a long gentle ang
le=2C
> catty-corner long ways from end to end. Sheet metal faces were then welde
d
> to both cut sides. A steel rod was welded to each piece of the tool.
>
> The tool was inserted into the inboard end of the leading edge tube=2C on
e
> piece at a time. The two beveled pieces were then pulled together forcing
> the dent out.
>
> The split pieces allowed the user to insert the tool past the rivets.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your vacation photos on your phone!
http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Freak accident |
At 09:02 AM 8/5/2009, John Hauck wrote:
>Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it.
>
>The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing, cut at a long gentle angle...
Thanks John, your explanation makes perfect sense.
-Dana
do not archive
--
If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: HKS oil cooler damage |
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage
Larry, I attached this pic to my reply to Richard Pike, but it really
should have been here.
I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough
stress to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below is a
picture of my mounting.
It just doesn't seem to me that there would be any stress on the
fittings.
Larry
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: HKS oil cooler damage |
The length and rigidity of the hoses are key. Yours appear to be
long enough to solve the problem.
My 3cyl is a born vibrator and I wanted everything compact as
possible, so with my short hoses in consideration
I mounted both the water radiator and oil cooler on a semi floating
framework attached to the front
of the engine. They all shake somewhat in unison. Seems to be
working out ok. I'll keep an eye on it.
BB
On 5, Aug 2009, at 3:24 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Girard
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage
>
> Larry, I attached this pic to my reply to Richard Pike, but it
> really should have been here.
>
> I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough
> stress to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below
> is a picture of my mounting.
> <F0B8E99662474AA38DBC4806C2CEDD96><918FABEBB10E47CCA5608E62F1D75A40>
>
> It just doesn't seem to me that there would be any stress on the
> fittings.
> Larry
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: HKS oil cooler damage |
At 03:24 PM 8/5/2009, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
>I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough stress
>to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below is a picture
>of my mounting.
It's not the stiffness of the hose, but the mass of the oil filled hose
vibrating.
-Dana
--
1. Programmers are expensive.
2. Press releases are cheap.
3. Therefore, it's cheaper to explain the bug than to fix it.
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: HKS oil cooler damage |
At 03:24 PM 8/5/2009, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
>I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough stress
>to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below is a picture
>of my mounting.
It's not the stiffness of the hose, but the mass of the oil filled hose
vibrating.
-Dana
--
1. Programmers are expensive.
2. Press releases are cheap.
3. Therefore, it's cheaper to explain the bug than to fix it.
Message 14
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Subject: | another way to push out that dent |
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=99943&submit2=find+it
If the hose fitting will clear the rivets use on of these. You might want to
shave off the rings, too. Hydroforming from the inside out.
Rick Girard
do not archive
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
I don't have the book in front of me ,but how we did it to my m3x was we put a
level from the trailing edge of the wing (not the end of the flap) and brought
the forword end of the level down 7 3/4 inches from the bottom of the leading
edge of the wing,the raised the tail until the bubble was level.That was level
flight.then dropped a plumb line down from the leading edge and that is where
you measured from for all your stations.
chris ambrose
M3X/jab 43.3
N327cs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256248#256248
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Subject: | Re: Freak accident |
At 12:53 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>At 09:02 AM 8/5/2009, John Hauck wrote:
>
>>Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it.
>>
>>The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing, cut at a long gentle angle...
>
>Thanks John, your explanation makes perfect sense.
>
>-Dana
Tool = $31.00
http://www.jcwhitney.com/MUFFLER-PIPE-EXPANSION-TOOL/GP_2004125_N_111+200005119+600017965_10614.jcw
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
At 07:26 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>I don't have the book in front of me ,but how we did it to my m3x
>was we put a level from the trailing edge of the wing (not the end
>of the flap) and brought the forword end of the level down 7 3/4
>inches from the bottom of the leading edge of the wing,the raised
>the tail until the bubble was level.That was level flight.then
>dropped a plumb line down from the leading edge and that is where
>you measured from for all your stations.
>
>chris ambrose
>M3X/jab 43.3
>N327cs
>
Here's how we used to do it.
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
That's it ! I couldn't remember exactly if it was 7 1/2 or 7 3/4....but that
is how I did it..
chris ambrose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256257#256257
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Subject: | Re: Trip to 3 Forks |
Chris
TNK had a display near the vendor buildings way up by the main entrance.
The guys on the ultralight field were a bit more friendly this year. I
was told that a fuel truck filled up some planes and no one was yelled
at. Also no one was pushing people to pay camping fees. Its going to
take some time to undo the bad reputation they earned..... in past
years.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: chris davis
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trip to 3 Forks
Ralph B , Hi ,Did you find the "Farm" at Oshkosh to be as
disapointing as I did? Did you see TNK any where ? John Hauck told me
that they havent been on the ultralight field for a couple years but I
didnt find them anywhere !Just checking to see if my wife and I are
blind. Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Ralph B <ul15rhb@juno.com>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2009 11:01:22 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Trip to 3 Forks
> "I had forgotten to turn off the HACman system and the engine was
leaning out and dying."
>
> Larry
Larry, What is the "HACman system". Is it the carb heat?
Ralph
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
22 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
1 year flying it
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255502#255502
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
Photos of earlier models of the Mark3x show the bottom front of the wing
set above the tubing at the top of the windshield and the front top of the
horz. stabilizer at the top of the boom tube. What the angles are, I don't
know.
For that reason, what attitude that puts the aircraft in when the wing is
at 9 deg. for W&B calculations, I don't know. It may be in level flight
attitude. Also the horz. stabilizer may be level ??? Can someone supply the
angles for reference ?
My Mark3x, with the engine mount level --- Wing incidence is +2.8 deg.
(Front bottom of wing is about 3" below the top of the windshield tubing bow),
the horz stabilizer is at -4.8 deg. ( the bottom of the front tube of the
stabilizer 1/4" above centerline of the boom tube). I think these changes
were made to help alleviate the problem of "Kolb Quit"
When I position the aircraft at 9 deg. for W&B calculations, the attitude
appears to me, to be in a three point landing attitude with the tail wheel
about 5" above the floor.
Surely this isn't level flight attitude.
If I put the horz. stabilizer level, that puts the bottom of the wing at
-2 deg.
Because of the change in wing and horz. stabilizer incidences, wouldn't
that change the angle of the wing for W&B calculations ?
Again your thoughts ???
John Ratcliffe
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
Chris
How long was your level?
On Aug 5, 2009, at 7:26 PM, ces308 wrote:
>
> I don't have the book in front of me ,but how we did it to my m3x
> was we put a level from the trailing edge of the wing (not the end
> of the flap) and brought the forword end of the level down 7 3/4
> inches from the bottom of the leading edge of the wing,the raised
> the tail until the bubble was level.That was level flight.then
> dropped a plumb line down from the leading edge and that is where
> you measured from for all your stations.
>
> chris ambrose
> M3X/jab 43.3
> N327cs
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256248#256248
>
>
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
It was a 4 feet level....it went from the wing trailing edge to the leading edge.
I would not go buy the horz stab....do the wing thing...my tali wheel was
up quite a ways...
chris ambrose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256279#256279
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
On 5, Aug 2009, at 9:23 PM, JRatcli256@aol.com wrote:
>
> When I position the aircraft at 9 deg. for W&B calculations, the
> attitude appears to me, to be in a three point landing attitude
> with the tail wheel about 5" above the floor.
> Surely this isn't level flight attitude.
>
Wouldn't this position be close to a normal attitude near stall?
That's what W&B is all about.
BB
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Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x |
you will never full stall land that airplane....atleast not without slamming the
mains on the ground....don't second guess the instruction manual...
chris ambrose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256290#256290
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