---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/05/09: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:43 AM - Re: Freak accident (lucien) 2. 04:24 AM - Re: Freak accident (Ralph B) 3. 06:09 AM - Re: Freak accident (John Hauck) 4. 06:20 AM - Re: Freak accident (John Hauck) 5. 06:21 AM - Fw: picture (zeprep251@aol.com) 6. 06:32 AM - Re: Fw: picture (John Hauck) 7. 07:42 AM - Re: Freak accident (Dave Kulp) 8. 09:16 AM - Re: Freak accident (Mike Welch) 9. 10:04 AM - Re: Freak accident (Dana Hague) 10. 12:28 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (Larry Cottrell) 11. 12:53 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (robert bean) 12. 03:53 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (Dana Hague) 13. 03:53 PM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (Dana Hague) 14. 04:12 PM - another way to push out that dent (Richard Girard) 15. 04:26 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308) 16. 04:36 PM - Re: Freak accident (possums) 17. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (possums) 18. 05:01 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308) 19. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Trip to 3 Forks (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 20. 06:24 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (JRatcli256@AOL.COM) 21. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (russ kinne) 22. 06:49 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308) 23. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (robert bean) 24. 07:59 PM - Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x (ces308) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:37 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Freak accident From: "lucien" undoctor wrote: > I had an incident today I'd like to share both as a heads-up, and also > looking for advice. > > When I came in today I taxied up to my hanger/trailer. I gave it a > little throttle to get a bit closer and it seemed the engine didn't idle > back when I pulled the throttle back. I put more pressure on the > throttle to close it, and when I did, the engine revved up. Pressing > the heel brakes kept it slow but I couldn't stop it and the right wing > bumped the back of the trailer, putting a flat spot about 1" high by > about 2" wide on the leading edge of my right wing about three and a > half feet from the root. > > First, what I found out caused the mishap. Picture the throttle handle; > when you push the throttle forward, the cable comes out of the cable > housing straight forward. When you bring the handle back to idle, the > cable re-enters the cable housing straight back. But when you move the > throttle handle even further back (which is what I did in my sudden > attempt to get the engine back to idle), it begins to pull the cable > back out of the housing, straight down; which pulls the throttle on and > you hit the trailer. To be forewarned... > > Now, the fix. There is nothing involved except a misshaped leading > edge. I'm thinking if I get a piece of hardwood turned that I can slip > into the tube from the root, when I reach the dent, I could gently tap > it in and return the leading edge to the proper cylindrical shape. Kind > of like the dies used to return an exhaust pipe to round. The wood is > hard enough to bend the tubing out, but it won't scratch the inside of > the tube as it's reshaping it. > > So, what do you think? Any input, cautions, other ideas, etc., will be > enormously appreciated. > > Dave Kulp > Bethlehem, PA > FireFly 11DMK My FSII had a couple dents in one of the leading edges from when the original builder had to put it down in some Mesquite trees after an engine-out (at only 6 hours, ouch - he was totally devastated and the pictures in the builders log were just painful to look at). They weren't deep enough to actually compromise the spar tho and didn't actually bend anything up. So he just flew it like that after the repairs for the next 400 hours (and I flew it like that for another 100 or so ;)). As for the throttle cable, I'd go ahead and replace it if the carb slides can't retract the cables easily and completely. You can mitigate it for a while with silicone lube, but that generally means the inside of the housing is worn and giving friction which it shouldn't. On my FSII, the builder put stops on the throttle quadrant to prevent it from going too far in either direction. The stops should correspond with the limits of travel of the slide, especially in the full open position - if you're able to force it past full open the results can be extremely expensive..... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256119#256119 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:49 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Freak accident From: "Ralph B" I have just the solution for you. For small dents, use the Poly Fiber light weight epoxy. Take the finishing tape off the leading edge if you have it, apply the epoxy liberally, sand to a smooth finish, apply new tape, and paint. I sanded mine by hand and made a template of cardboard to check the leading edge curve as I was sanding. If you do it right, it looks like there never was a dent. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256121#256121 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/recent_picture__935.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/after_sanding__310.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/after_application_1__150.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:22 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Freak accident > What did the tool look like, how did it work? > > -Dana Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it. The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing, cut at a long gentle angle, catty-corner long ways from end to end. Sheet metal faces were then welded to both cut sides. A steel rod was welded to each piece of the tool. The tool was inserted into the inboard end of the leading edge tube, one piece at a time. The two beveled pieces were then pulled together forcing the dent out. The split pieces allowed the user to insert the tool past the rivets. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:48 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Freak accident The area of the wing that works the hardest is from the leading edge rearward to the main spar. My 5 rib FS carried the aircraft with 10 rib noses made of .028" wall 5/16" aluminum tubing, 5 on each wing panel. That ain't much for the way I asked my FS to work. In order for the wing sections to work correctly, those little rib noses have to be kept in column. One of the primary jobs of the leading edge is to help keep the rib noses in column. If the leading edge bends/shifts laterally, it pulls the noses out of column. Lateral bracing of the leading edge is extremely important. The 5/16" tubing called for in the plans of the US and FS for lateral bracing had a habit of breaking due to vibration and stress. Once these broke, the only thing holding the rib noses in column was the bow tip. Some years ago I posted some photos of the results of leading edge failure of both wings of my FS, which failed up and rearward to the main spar, in flight of course. I'd resend the photos of the failure, but I don't know exactly what DVD they are on or where it is right now. john h mkIII John, I'm having difficulty with your concept of " the leading edges and the first 18 or so inches back to the main spar carry most of the load of the aircraft" The leading edge is connected to the spar by the ribs but not the the fuselage or the spar carry through. I just don't see the load path. Would you elaborate? Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:05 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Fwd: picture From: zeprep251@aol.com Richard, ??? We had that issue on a HKS on a Hawk.The mount does not expand but the aluminum cooler will expand .015 for every inch of length as it heats up.We used these hourglass mounts from JBM to secure the cooler.That was 4 years ago so I can't say how long they will last,but so far so good. ? Might try JBM's stainless steel springs on the exhaust also.? G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: Don James Sent: Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:00 am Subject: picture ? ? Donald James JBM Industries Kent, Ohio? 44240?? USA ? 330-678-9537 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:42 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fwd: picture Gary: Looks a lot like the Rotax 582 radiator shock mounts I use on my coolers. john h mkIII The mount does not expand but the aluminum cooler will expand .015 for every inch of length as it heats up.We used these hourglass mounts from JBM to secure the cooler. G.Aman ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:08 AM PST US From: Dave Kulp Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Freak accident Not sure it's an issue anyay. There's a similar dent on the LE of my UltraStar, was there when I bought it. Aside from cutting and peeling the fabric back around it to make sure there was no crack, I haven't worried about it. There's not a lot of stress on the LE tube anyway (it would be a very different story on something like a Quicksilver where the LE tube IS the spar). Sounds like what you really need is a stop to limit the throttle lever travel. -Dana Dana, John, Kip, Rich, Thanks for your input. Though I'm not educated in engineering, the logic of my thinking was that it isn't a critical issue, and no one is screaming "DON'T FLY IT." Quite a relief. After I get a wood shop to turn the wood "ramrod" I'd envisioned, I plan on running it through my table saw and putting a kerf along it's length to accommodate the rivets. I also plan on rounding the leading edge (of the ramrod) to gently push the indent out, rather than a square edge, which would tend to "suddenly" push it out and stress the metal at the bend points. But, if anyone knows anyone who has the tool mentioned, I'd love to pay freight here and back to use that rather than "building" a wood ram. I'd had it mentioned to me; goes in narrow and once in place you turn a screw mechanism which spreads the two halves. If no one knows of one in the system it might be a good investment for a machinist to make one to rent out, from the way it sounds! 10/4 on the stop, Dana! Never even crossed my mind that that could happen, but it certainly is a consideration now! Kip, the carb does pull the cable back in, but I have the throttle tensioned like a GA so I can leave go of the throttle when I'm at altitude and maintain my RPM setting. This occurred because the throttle handle has no stop and I went past the point where the cable was all the way into the housing and began to pull back out when I was required to act very hastily and went beyond the idle position. And John, it sounds like Fortune is your co-pilot. The windshield could have put a serious dent in your face when it departed, rather than the leading edge of your wing!! Again, thanks to all of you, sure is nice to have tons of hours experience available for things like this. And if anyone knows the whereabouts of an Undenting Machine I'd love to be put in touch with it. Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA FireFly 11DMK ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:23 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Freak accident John=2C Very good description. I=2C too=2C have a small dent in my leading edge tube that I need to push back out. The tool you describe is pretty much wh at I intended on building. Essentially=2C the tool functions much like a muffler pipe expansion tool ....only it's fashioned to be at the end of a piece of metal rod. Mike Welch MkIII collecting dust > From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Freak accident > Date: Wed=2C 5 Aug 2009 08:02:37 -0500 > > > > > What did the tool look like=2C how did it work? > > > > -Dana > > > Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it. > > The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing=2C cut at a long gentle ang le=2C > catty-corner long ways from end to end. Sheet metal faces were then welde d > to both cut sides. A steel rod was welded to each piece of the tool. > > The tool was inserted into the inboard end of the leading edge tube=2C on e > piece at a time. The two beveled pieces were then pulled together forcing > the dent out. > > The split pieces allowed the user to insert the tool past the rivets. > > john h > mkIII > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your vacation photos on your phone! http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:40 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Freak accident At 09:02 AM 8/5/2009, John Hauck wrote: >Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it. > >The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing, cut at a long gentle angle... Thanks John, your explanation makes perfect sense. -Dana do not archive -- If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:02 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage Larry, I attached this pic to my reply to Richard Pike, but it really should have been here. I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough stress to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below is a picture of my mounting. It just doesn't seem to me that there would be any stress on the fittings. Larry ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:22 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage The length and rigidity of the hoses are key. Yours appear to be long enough to solve the problem. My 3cyl is a born vibrator and I wanted everything compact as possible, so with my short hoses in consideration I mounted both the water radiator and oil cooler on a semi floating framework attached to the front of the engine. They all shake somewhat in unison. Seems to be working out ok. I'll keep an eye on it. BB On 5, Aug 2009, at 3:24 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Girard > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:22 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage > > Larry, I attached this pic to my reply to Richard Pike, but it > really should have been here. > > I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough > stress to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below > is a picture of my mounting. > <918FABEBB10E47CCA5608E62F1D75A40> > > It just doesn't seem to me that there would be any stress on the > fittings. > Larry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:19 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage At 03:24 PM 8/5/2009, Larry Cottrell wrote: > >I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough stress >to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below is a picture >of my mounting. It's not the stiffness of the hose, but the mass of the oil filled hose vibrating. -Dana -- 1. Programmers are expensive. 2. Press releases are cheap. 3. Therefore, it's cheaper to explain the bug than to fix it. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:19 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS oil cooler damage At 03:24 PM 8/5/2009, Larry Cottrell wrote: > >I am surprised that the stiffness of the hoses could cause enough stress >to crack the cooler. Could there be any other factor? Below is a picture >of my mounting. It's not the stiffness of the hose, but the mass of the oil filled hose vibrating. -Dana -- 1. Programmers are expensive. 2. Press releases are cheap. 3. Therefore, it's cheaper to explain the bug than to fix it. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:41 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: another way to push out that dent From: Richard Girard http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=99943&submit2=find+it If the hose fitting will clear the rivets use on of these. You might want to shave off the rings, too. Hydroforming from the inside out. Rick Girard do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:44 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x From: "ces308" I don't have the book in front of me ,but how we did it to my m3x was we put a level from the trailing edge of the wing (not the end of the flap) and brought the forword end of the level down 7 3/4 inches from the bottom of the leading edge of the wing,the raised the tail until the bubble was level.That was level flight.then dropped a plumb line down from the leading edge and that is where you measured from for all your stations. chris ambrose M3X/jab 43.3 N327cs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256248#256248 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:02 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Freak accident At 12:53 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote: > >At 09:02 AM 8/5/2009, John Hauck wrote: > >>Not easy to explain and describe. Wish I had a photo of it. >> >>The tool was made in two parts of 4130 tubing, cut at a long gentle angle... > >Thanks John, your explanation makes perfect sense. > >-Dana Tool = $31.00 http://www.jcwhitney.com/MUFFLER-PIPE-EXPANSION-TOOL/GP_2004125_N_111+200005119+600017965_10614.jcw ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:10 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x At 07:26 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote: > >I don't have the book in front of me ,but how we did it to my m3x >was we put a level from the trailing edge of the wing (not the end >of the flap) and brought the forword end of the level down 7 3/4 >inches from the bottom of the leading edge of the wing,the raised >the tail until the bubble was level.That was level flight.then >dropped a plumb line down from the leading edge and that is where >you measured from for all your stations. > >chris ambrose >M3X/jab 43.3 >N327cs > Here's how we used to do it. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:38 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x From: "ces308" That's it ! I couldn't remember exactly if it was 7 1/2 or 7 3/4....but that is how I did it.. chris ambrose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256257#256257 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:18 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trip to 3 Forks Chris TNK had a display near the vendor buildings way up by the main entrance. The guys on the ultralight field were a bit more friendly this year. I was told that a fuel truck filled up some planes and no one was yelled at. Also no one was pushing people to pay camping fees. Its going to take some time to undo the bad reputation they earned..... in past years. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: chris davis To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:38 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trip to 3 Forks Ralph B , Hi ,Did you find the "Farm" at Oshkosh to be as disapointing as I did? Did you see TNK any where ? John Hauck told me that they havent been on the ultralight field for a couple years but I didnt find them anywhere !Just checking to see if my wife and I are blind. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Ralph B To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2009 11:01:22 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Trip to 3 Forks > "I had forgotten to turn off the HACman system and the engine was leaning out and dying." > > Larry Larry, What is the "HACman system". Is it the carb heat? Ralph -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=255502#255502 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:21 PM PST US From: JRatcli256@AOL.COM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x Photos of earlier models of the Mark3x show the bottom front of the wing set above the tubing at the top of the windshield and the front top of the horz. stabilizer at the top of the boom tube. What the angles are, I don't know. For that reason, what attitude that puts the aircraft in when the wing is at 9 deg. for W&B calculations, I don't know. It may be in level flight attitude. Also the horz. stabilizer may be level ??? Can someone supply the angles for reference ? My Mark3x, with the engine mount level --- Wing incidence is +2.8 deg. (Front bottom of wing is about 3" below the top of the windshield tubing bow), the horz stabilizer is at -4.8 deg. ( the bottom of the front tube of the stabilizer 1/4" above centerline of the boom tube). I think these changes were made to help alleviate the problem of "Kolb Quit" When I position the aircraft at 9 deg. for W&B calculations, the attitude appears to me, to be in a three point landing attitude with the tail wheel about 5" above the floor. Surely this isn't level flight attitude. If I put the horz. stabilizer level, that puts the bottom of the wing at -2 deg. Because of the change in wing and horz. stabilizer incidences, wouldn't that change the angle of the wing for W&B calculations ? Again your thoughts ??? John Ratcliffe ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:49 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x Chris How long was your level? On Aug 5, 2009, at 7:26 PM, ces308 wrote: > > I don't have the book in front of me ,but how we did it to my m3x > was we put a level from the trailing edge of the wing (not the end > of the flap) and brought the forword end of the level down 7 3/4 > inches from the bottom of the leading edge of the wing,the raised > the tail until the bubble was level.That was level flight.then > dropped a plumb line down from the leading edge and that is where > you measured from for all your stations. > > chris ambrose > M3X/jab 43.3 > N327cs > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256248#256248 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:45 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x From: "ces308" It was a 4 feet level....it went from the wing trailing edge to the leading edge. I would not go buy the horz stab....do the wing thing...my tali wheel was up quite a ways... chris ambrose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256279#256279 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:31 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x On 5, Aug 2009, at 9:23 PM, JRatcli256@aol.com wrote: > > When I position the aircraft at 9 deg. for W&B calculations, the > attitude appears to me, to be in a three point landing attitude > with the tail wheel about 5" above the floor. > Surely this isn't level flight attitude. > Wouldn't this position be close to a normal attitude near stall? That's what W&B is all about. BB ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weight & Balance for certification of Mark3x From: "ces308" you will never full stall land that airplane....atleast not without slamming the mains on the ground....don't second guess the instruction manual... chris ambrose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256290#256290 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.