---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/07/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:39 AM - Re: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (pj.ladd) 2. 03:12 AM - Re: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (pj.ladd) 3. 05:17 AM - Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (lucien) 4. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (robert bean) 5. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (John Hauck) 6. 04:34 PM - Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (planecrazzzy) 7. 06:10 PM - Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (lucien) 8. 07:24 PM - Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing (JetPilot) 9. 09:38 PM - victim of prop blast (b young) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:14 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing I agree with the guy who doesn't bother with the ASI on short final.>> I cannot tell a lie Robert. It was I. I assumed everyone did it l;ike that. BTW. I thought the perfect landing was arriving on the ground at the moment the plane stopped flying. To me that means arriving at ground level at the moment of stall. Then you keep the likelihood of a bounce back into the air to a minimum. Given a reasonable surface of course. What is the point of doing wheelies which by definition mean that you are still in flying position and travelling faster than necessary. You just take more runway or have to use the brakes harder to disipate the speed. Ground handling is always more fraught than flying.. I am talking about light aircraft of course. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:20 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing but in actual flight they reach those angles at certain corresponding airspeeds.>> Hi Rick, Not true. Your wing in level flight supports a certain weight . Increase that weight and the wing will NOT support it. In other words it stalls. How can you do this? Easy! Alter your flight path markedly, this will increase the `g` force and the plane will in effect weigh more. Its all about what a sailor would call `apparent wind` As a yacht increases its speed the direction the wind is coming from moves towards the bow. This enables a boat to `point higher`,i.e to decrease the angle of attack. It is the same with a planes wing . Go fast and the AOA moves forward, go slowly and the AOA moves back. If you increase the weight of the a/c (pull `g`) the wing will `mush` through the airand the AOA will move backwards `WHATEVER THE AIRSPEED` I am sure thats clear as mud but think about it. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:25 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing From: "lucien" pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > but in actual flight they reach those angles at certain corresponding > airspeeds.>> > > Hi Rick, > > Not true. Your wing in level flight supports a certain weight . Increase > that weight and the wing will NOT support it. In other words it stalls. How > can you do this? Easy! Alter your flight path markedly, this will increase > the `g` force and the plane will in effect weigh more. > > Its all about what a sailor would call `apparent wind` As a yacht increases > its speed the direction the wind is coming from moves towards the bow. This > enables a boat to `point higher`,i.e to decrease the angle of attack. It is > the same with a planes wing . Go fast and the AOA moves forward, go slowly > and the AOA moves back. If you increase the weight of the a/c (pull `g`) the > wing will `mush` through the airand the AOA will move backwards `WHATEVER > THE AIRSPEED` > > I am sure thats clear as mud but think about it. > > Cheers > > Pat Well, no. This is just a variation of the basic misunderstanding that stall is controlled by airspeed. There's nothing about airspeed that changes AOA with respect to the relative wind. It can be going by the wing section at 10mph, 1mph, 1000mph, X mph - that doesn't change the AOA. Only a change in the angle of the wing, and/or in the _direction_ of the relative wind will affect this. Rick is right and this was my original point also - the only time there's a reliable relationship between airspeed and stall is when maintaining steady-state flight (i.e. lift = gravity or g force). By extension that means AOA also.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256477#256477 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:11 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing On a pretty summer evening when the big FEDEX cargo blimp comes loitering in slo motion while descending to ROC over my place, I still wonder what keeps all those parcels up in the clear calm air. I still think it's magic, or wires. BB On 7, Aug 2009, at 8:16 AM, lucien wrote: > > > pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: >> but in actual flight they reach those angles at certain corresponding >> airspeeds.>> >> >> Hi Rick, >> >> Not true. Your wing in level flight supports a certain weight . >> Increase >> that weight and the wing will NOT support it. In other words it >> stalls. How >> can you do this? Easy! Alter your flight path markedly, this will >> increase >> the `g` force and the plane will in effect weigh more. >> >> Its all about what a sailor would call `apparent wind` As a yacht >> increases >> its speed the direction the wind is coming from moves towards the >> bow. This >> enables a boat to `point higher`,i.e to decrease the angle of >> attack. It is >> the same with a planes wing . Go fast and the AOA moves forward, >> go slowly >> and the AOA moves back. If you increase the weight of the a/c >> (pull `g`) the >> wing will `mush` through the airand the AOA will move backwards >> `WHATEVER >> THE AIRSPEED` >> >> I am sure thats clear as mud but think about it. >> >> Cheers >> >> Pat > > > Well, no. > This is just a variation of the basic misunderstanding that stall > is controlled by airspeed. > > There's nothing about airspeed that changes AOA with respect to the > relative wind. It can be going by the wing section at 10mph, 1mph, > 1000mph, X mph - that doesn't change the AOA. Only a change in the > angle of the wing, and/or in the _direction_ of the relative wind > will affect this. > > Rick is right and this was my original point also - the only time > there's a reliable relationship between airspeed and stall is when > maintaining steady-state flight (i.e. lift = gravity or g force). > By extension that means AOA also.... > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256477#256477 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:02 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing > On a pretty summer evening when the big FEDEX cargo blimp comes > loitering in slo motion while > descending to ROC over my place, I still wonder what keeps all those > parcels up in the clear calm air. > > I still think it's magic, or wires. > BB Bob B: It is magic! I feel it everytime my wheels break ground. Especially when I haven't flown in a while. Used to get similar feelings sitting at a 3 foot hover. Absolutely magic. Cheating gravity. To be able to fly, in a contraption I built in my basement, is certainly a work of magic, no matter what angle of attack or airspeed. john h - Doing chores instead of doing aviation. mkIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:16 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing From: "planecrazzzy" I agree... Magic... I named my plane "Miss Lucky Stars" Every time I'm flying... I'm thanking my Lucky Stars ... Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" the Flying dog .. .. .. > > > Bob B: > > It is magic! > > I feel it everytime my wheels break ground. Especially when I haven't flown > in a while. > > Used to get similar feelings sitting at a 3 foot hover. Absolutely magic. > Cheating gravity. > > To be able to fly, in a contraption I built in my basement, is certainly a > work of magic, no matter what angle of attack or airspeed. > > john h - Doing chores instead of doing aviation. > mkIII -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256575#256575 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/hpim0175_172.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:27 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing From: "lucien" planecrazzzy wrote: > I agree... Magic... > > Nah, it's not lift or anything like that at all. It's gobs and gobs of cash... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256589#256589 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:42 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing From: "JetPilot" aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: > > > "you will never full stall land that airplane....at least not without slamming the mains on the ground" > > > Chris, Sure you can. All you have to do is hold it off and get it slow enough. Any aircraft can be slowed enough so that it's vertical and horizontal velocity vectors reach the critical stall AOA. When you practice approach stalls that's exactly what you're doing. The aircraft isn't at some high angle relative to the horizon, it's nearly flat, but its vertical velocity becomes such that the critical stall angle is reached. > The assumption in this statement is that the speed will be such that the angle increases to the point that the tail wheel hits first, the wing stalls and whammo. > > > Actually, the statement is pretty much correct, your statement at the very last of this quote makes a bad assumption that is just not true. On my Kolb, there is how it works.... As the speed decreases over the runway, the tailwheel will eventually hit the ground long before the wing stalls... When the tail wheel hits the ground, the angle of attack decreases, there is less lift, the body of the airplane comes down, reducing the angle of attack even more resulting in even less lift and its going to land, all the pulling back on the stick in the world will not keep the plane from forcibly landing at this point. Once the tailwheel hits the ground, the plane is coming down even without ever stalling the wing. It may be possible to full stall land my Kolb, but the angle of attack would be so high, the mains would be much to far off the ground to keep the tailwheel from touching before the airplane stalled, possibly bending the gear. Bottom line is, there is really no way to full stall land my Kolb MK III Xtra without slamming it on the ground hard. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256596#256596 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:57 PM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Kolb-List: victim of prop blast Wed my wife and I went to the airport and prepared for a ride around the valley. We were waiting at the intersection of the taxiway and alpha 1, when a aero star pulled onto the taxiway at alpha 3,,,, because I was not warmed up and trying to be as hospitable as possible, I radioed to the aero star driver and told him I was going to give him enough room to get to the runway with out any problems. Probably my first mistake, should have held my ground. But I went back and parked in the center of the ramp, the aero star driver pulled onto alpha 1 at an angle and pointed his prop blast directly on me and proceeded to do a run up. I called on the radio and told him of the problem and he did not back off. So today I confronted him at the airport and he told me that he did not have to concern himself with his prop blast with an ultra light in the area, I informed him that it was not an ultra light, but an experimental. So he told me he did not have to watch his prop blast for an experimental either. But it was my fault and my poor flying skills that put me in that position. So I told him to watch for the call from the faa and he shrugged it off, so I went to the fbo and asked for the fsdo phone number, I was told that because there was no damage that they could not do much to him, BUT I could file a formal complaint, So I did. Again because there was no damage they could not do anything but talk to him, and put it in the records. so I thought that if that is all that can be done that will be enough. The investigator at the salt lake Fsdo called me back an hour or so later and said that the pilot was quite respectful when talking to him , and he was told in no uncertain terms that part 93 states that he cant anytime he was in a plane, during startup, taxi, run up, takeoff, etc that he was responsible for his prop blast and he did have to be aware of his surroundings, even to an ultra light. And that his actions according to part 93 were "careless and reckless" When I went to talk to him, had he said "sorry" I would have been ok with that, but his attitude did not sit well with me and the rest is history. So if you don't know,,,,, call and ask. Just don't put up with their poor procedures and attitudes. We have just as much rights as they do. Boyd Young Kolb MkIII C 600+ hours and counting Brigham City Utah. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.