---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/15/09: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (pj.ladd) 2. 04:41 AM - hours vs experience (Ted Cowan) 3. 05:23 AM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (russ kinne) 4. 05:41 AM - Re: hours vs experience (robert bean) 5. 05:41 AM - Searey flight (daniel myers) 6. 06:12 AM - Re: hours vs experience (Blumax008@aol.com) 7. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (Richard Girard) 8. 06:47 AM - Re: hours vs experience (John Hauck) 9. 09:50 AM - Re: hours vs experience (dalewhelan) 10. 10:09 AM - Re: Brad Stump (dalewhelan) 11. 11:48 AM - Re: hours vs experience (TheWanderingWench) 12. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (zeprep251@aol.com) 13. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (robert bean) 14. 12:24 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (zeprep251@aol.com) 15. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (zeprep251@aol.com) 16. 12:40 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (John Hauck) 17. 12:56 PM - Re: Brad Stump (JetPilot) 18. 02:46 PM - Spinning (possums) 19. 03:49 PM - Re: Spinning (russ kinne) 20. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (robert bean) 21. 04:16 PM - Re: Spinning (Mike Welch) 22. 05:02 PM - Re: Spinning (possums) 23. 06:13 PM - Re: hours vs experience (Ralph B) 24. 06:33 PM - Re: Re: hours vs experience (russ kinne) 25. 07:03 PM - MULA Flyin at Purdy Field (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 26. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: hours vs experience (John Hauck) 27. 07:53 PM - Re: Spinning (John Hauck) 28. 08:08 PM - Re: Spinning (John Hauck) 29. 08:38 PM - Re: Spinning (ces308) 30. 08:47 PM - Re: Re: hours vs experience (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 31. 08:48 PM - Re: Spinning (George Thompson) 32. 09:53 PM - Re: Spinning (dalewhelan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:45 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. >> Dont you have any restrictions on airobatics in our sort of planes in the US. Strictly illegal here. Not to say it is never done of course Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:26 AM PST US From: "Ted Cowan" Subject: Kolb-List: hours vs experience I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed the fact that you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any value on your advice. I would and do listen to the man with one hour flying as well as the man with ten thousand hours. Each has their own distinct idea of what happened, how to cure it and should be accorded the same attention. To insist a man has the ten thousand hours to have his advice honored is ludicrous. Never demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours has he flown. It might be two hours but experienced the same thing but has a different point of view that is valuable. This is the greatest of the lists out there for advice, information and stories but I think you all lose site of what it is really is. Ideas from EVERYONE. The Kolb aircraft is different from all others. It requires the input from ALL, not just a chosen few. Some of the advice from the chosen few has been grossly incorrect for times nowdays. Things change. Please elicit advice and information from everyone. Now, that filter for eighty bucks might be the cats meow but if you have hard fuel lines, black so you cannot see what is going through them, and a fuel filter you cannot see through, no glass or insight as to the condition of the fuel going to your carbs, you may experience the off field landings that you all brag about doing. If you are using ethanol fuel in a tank that is older, it WILL clean the tank and put all the sediment on the bottom for your pump to pick up. I have seen it happen several times, even on my motorcycle as of late. That stuff looks like rust, has a lot of lead and other additives in it and WILL stop up a microfilter. If you cannot see it before it does, you WILL be using your skills to survive. The good part is your tank will be nice and clean which will only matter if you and your toy survive. I will be using my sight glass filter and do check it all the time. It has really saved my life several times. Put your expensive filter on but you wont know when it is just close to being stopped up. My opinion. By the way, I only have a couple of thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as someone with ten thousand. Ted Cowan. Alabama Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:01 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump Pat Some GA aircraft here are placarded "Intentional spins prohibited" -- apparently accidental ones are permitted! We have more stringent regs in a control zone, near an airport, than in controlled airspace. Many of the restrictions are laid on by the manufacturer. I'm sure a current CFI will let us know the current regs. Hope so. Russ do not archive On Aug 15, 2009, at 7:19 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > > maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. >> > > Dont you have any restrictions on airobatics in our sort of planes > in the US. > > Strictly illegal here. Not to say it is never done of course > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:43 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: hours vs experience On the filter thing, I'm almost embarrassed to report my discovery. As you may remember I have been having mysterious fuel problems. -discolored, stale smelling gas, stuttering engine on climb out, float needle hanging at start. -well some good came of it, I changed the line over to the newer ethanol resistant stuff, Put a tee in for a temporary gauge. Every spring I put in a new plastic auto zone filter with a decent sized reservoir bottom. Don't buy the auto zone model made in china When I cut the bottom off I discovered the element flopping around and the cement (epoxy, asphalt, old chewing gum?) that was supposed to retain it had dried and crumbled and chunks were broken off. Obviously some had gone downstream to the pump and maybe the regulator. -ethanol is not our friend except when mixed with hops and malted barley. I have a metal housing filter in for temporary. I'll buy a good one. BB BTW, had a nice ride last evening. Seemed peppier with fuel getting into the float bowl :) On 15, Aug 2009, at 7:17 AM, Ted Cowan wrote: > > I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed > the fact that you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any > value on your advice. I would and do listen to the man with one > hour flying as well as the man with ten thousand hours. Each has > their own distinct idea of what happened, how to cure it and should > be accorded the same attention. To insist a man has the ten > thousand hours to have his advice honored is ludicrous. Never > demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours > has he flown. It might be two hours but experienced the same thing > but has a different point of view that is valuable. This is the > greatest of the lists out there for advice, information and stories > but I think you all lose site of what it is really is. Ideas from > EVERYONE. The Kolb aircraft is different from all others. It > requires the input from ALL, not just a chosen few. Some of the > advice from the chosen few has been grossly incorrect for times > nowdays. Things change. Please elicit advice and information from > everyone. Now, that filter for eighty bucks might be the cats > meow but if you have hard fuel lines, black so you cannot see what > is going through them, and a fuel filter you cannot see through, no > glass or insight as to the condition of the fuel going to your > carbs, you may experience the off field landings that you all brag > about doing. If you are using ethanol fuel in a tank that is > older, it WILL clean the tank and put all the sediment on the > bottom for your pump to pick up. I have seen it happen several > times, even on my motorcycle as of late. That stuff looks like > rust, has a lot of lead and other additives in it and WILL stop up > a microfilter. If you cannot see it before it does, you WILL be > using your skills to survive. The good part is your tank will be > nice and clean which will only matter if you and your toy survive. > I will be using my sight glass filter and do check it all the > time. It has really saved my life several times. Put your > expensive filter on but you wont know when it is just close to > being stopped up. My opinion. By the way, I only have a couple of > thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as someone > with ten thousand. Ted Cowan. Alabama Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:47 AM PST US From: daniel myers Subject: Kolb-List: Searey flight Possible opening to fly from Illinois to Orlando. I am picking up my Searey tuesday and my co-pilot may not be able to go. Anyone in the Orlando area with SeaRey experience is welcome to join me. I will pay for flight from KS FB to Illinois Daniel Myers h20maule@hotmail.com 321 356 9544 _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYC B_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:17 AM PST US From: Blumax008@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: hours vs experience In a message dated 8/15/2009 7:41:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc1917@bellsouth.net writes: Never demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours has he flown. It might be two hours but experienced the same thing but has a different point of view that is valuable. I wholeheartedly agree. I made a comment yesterday inquiring what the hell a "billet" is and was duly informed correctly by someone who knew whereof he spoke. That person, no matter his flight time or experience level, spoke from experience gained in a shop or through discipline to read & learn. What I'm saying is that a person with Zero hours of flight time can be a worthy contributor to the forum. Bill Catalina 31 "years" flying ultralights...with no BRS. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump From: Richard Girard Pat, Yes, unless the aircraft is spec'd as an aerobatic aircraft, item 17 in the operating limitations forbids aerobatics. 17) This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft's attitude,an abnormal attitude, or acceleration not necessary for normal flight. Hard to imagine how it could be any clearer. Rick Girard On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 6:19 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > > maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. >> > > Dont you have any restrictions on airobatics in our sort of planes in the > US. > > Strictly illegal here. Not to say it is never done of course > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:26 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: hours vs experience > I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed the fact > that you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any value on your > advice. By the way, I only have a > couple of thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as > someone with ten thousand. Ted Cowan. Alabama Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. Ted C: Now I am confused. I don't know whether to replace the hour meter in my mkIII with a "year meter" or an "experience meter". To keep track of time for maintenance purposes, service life, etc., which meter do you recommend I use? I realize this has nothing to do with your new subject, "hours vs experience", but neither did my attempt to get folks to use "hours" instead of "years" when it came to use and reliability of Mikuni fuel pumps. Most of us pull maintenance on our cars and trucks using mileage off the odometer. Off road equipment and airplane, I use hours, not years, to keep track of usage. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:40 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: hours vs experience From: "dalewhelan" Hi guys, I am relatively new this forum. I started flying sailplanes in 1974 went to general aviation in 1978, Flew hanggliders in 1982,got my Kolb in 2008. Sounds like I have been flying for 35 years and you should acknowledge me as a sky god. Here is the rest of the story As of 1/29/1981 I had logged 7 hours the past year I have logged about 100 hours. I have met people that spent years and hours flying around the field. I think they still lack experience. I have been ridiculed by people on this site when I was looking for answers. I have talked to somebody in the industry about this site. The opinion seems to be that there is good info to be found here. The bad thing is the way new people are often treated on this site. The treatment is such that newcomers could be driven away from an informative site and possibly a great occupation. I have received email from forum members talking about the elitist mentality they have run into. To me it seemed like financial suicide for an industry insider to post on this site. The bickering could be directed at their business and customers lost. Sometimes I read the posts and it seems that people are abusive to others that don't bow to them, often through the use of sarcasm. It seems some folks want you to bow to them as the sky god even if they are wrong.While I enjoy the varied view and opinions, I am not fond of publically calling someone who has a different opinion an idiot. Johns comment about hours vs years seems accurate. If you look for more meaning than what he said you will find it, just realize those are your words that were added. I actively road raced motorcycles for 25 years. Won numerous races, have close to a dozen championships, have thousands of miles on road courses. I had done more after 3 years than people with 20 years of riding and lots more miles due to the environment I rode in. Two years ago a 14 year old girl beat me in a road race. I was riding an 80 horsepower 250, she was on a 45 horsepower 125. People with airplanes are more fun to talk to than people with computers. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257809#257809 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump From: "dalewhelan" I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin training. I plan to get some. Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? Specifically, power off? -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:44 AM PST US From: TheWanderingWench Subject: Re: Kolb-List: hours vs experience I have a slightly different twist on Ted's perspective, when he writes: "I would and do listen to the man with one hour flying as well as the man with ten thousand hours. Each has their own distinct idea of what happened...an d should be accorded the same attention." I agree that you should hear out everyone, regardless of their level of exp erience. However, if a person with one hour is giving advice, and a person with significantly more hours is giving advice, I know that I'll actually g ive far more credence to the person with significantly more hours. That's t rue in almost any walk of life - as you pile up experience, people listen t o you=0A more.- In some circumstances, hours and experience are not automatically correlate d. We all know people who don't learn from their experiences, and therefore make the same mistakes over and over. I don't listen to people who have sh own that - regardless of their # of hours - they haven't much wisdom to sha re. Another example are people who take one aspect of their extensive experienc e and assume that makes them an expert on everything. For instance, I have lots of hours, but as PIC it's been almost all in one ultralight. So I don' t have experience with lots of different aircraft. If the subject is compar isons of flying characteristics of different aircraft, all my hours of expe rience won't add to the conversation, and someone with far fewer hours but more varied PIC experience would have better information. - Likewise, someone who has never flown more than 50 miles from=0A their own airfield doesn't have the level of experience as someone who has done long distance flying, regardless of their number of hours.- I don't think that this list "insists that a man has the ten thousand hours to have his advice honored..." -I think that this list is astoundingly f ortunate to=0A have people with not only lots of hours but also greatly var ied experience during those hours of flying, who are thoughtful and able to analyze their experience so to make it useful to those of us with less exp erience. And we also have others on this list with far fewer hours who have given lots of good advice to this list. Sometimes they're in disagreement with the ten thousand hour guys, and we get a good, robust discussion.- Does that mean I can't learn from a low hour pilot who has limited experien ce in where he's flown? Absolutely not. But frankly, someone with less than ten hours isn't someone who has much to teach - they're still at the botto m of a learning curve. Hopefully, they "teach"through their questions...by asking those of us with lots of hours to explain our reasoning, we can gain more insight ourselves. But I don't take their advice and information as s eriously as someone with hundreds of=0A hours.- What SI of great concern to me is that some newcomers experience our list a s elitist and unfriendly to newcomers. Dale Whelan wrote that he's been rid iculed when he asked questions. -To me, that's unforgivable. We ought to remember that NONE of us was born knowing how to fly or do repairs or navig ate, etc. So taking a "doesn't everyone know that" attitude is something th at we should guard against. Answer the questions - there's always someone l urking who will gain from it. And I know that I am still in a learning mode , and I don't remember everything I've learned years ago - so it's helpful for us old-timer, high hour folks as well. Arty TrostMaxair DrifterSandy, Oregon www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com =0A =0A"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" =0A Helen Keller =0A =0A"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Ted Cowan wrote: From: Ted Cowan Subject: Kolb-List: hours vs experience I am very unhappy with the way the list has apparently construed the fact t hat you need lots of hours vs time flying to be of any value on your advice .- I would and do listen to the man with one hour flying as well as the m an with ten thousand hours.- Each has their own distinct idea of what hap pened, how to cure it and should be=0A accorded the same attention.- To i nsist a man has the ten thousand hours to have his advice honored is ludicr ous.- Never demean a man for his concept or perceptions based on how many hours has he flown.- It might be two hours but experienced the same thin g but has a different point of view that is valuable.- This is the greate st of the lists out there for advice, information and stories but I think y ou all lose site of what it is really is.- Ideas from EVERYONE.- The Ko lb aircraft is different from all others.- It requires the input from ALL , not just a chosen few.- Some of the advice from the chosen few has been grossly incorrect for times nowdays.- Things change.- Please elicit ad vice and information from everyone.- - Now, that filter for eighty buck s might be the cats meow but if you have hard fuel lines, black so you cann ot see what is going through them, and a fuel filter you cannot see=0A thro ugh, no glass or insight as to the condition of the fuel going to your carb s, you may experience the off field landings that you all brag about doing. ---If you are using ethanol fuel in a tank that is older, it WILL cle an the tank and put all the sediment on the bottom for your pump to pick up .- I have seen it happen several times, even on my motorcycle as of late. - That stuff looks like rust, has a lot of lead and other additives in it and WILL stop up a microfilter.- If you cannot see it before it does, yo u WILL be using your skills to survive.- The good part is your tank will be nice and clean which will only matter if you and your toy survive.- I will be using my sight glass filter and do check it all the time.- It has really saved my life several times.- Put your expensive filter on but yo u wont know when it is just close to being stopped up.- My opinion.- By the way, I only have a=0A couple of thousand hours in a Kolb so it is not as good as advice as someone with ten thousand.- Ted Cowan.- Alabama- Kolb Slingshot 912 UL. le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump From: zeprep251@aol.com Dale, ?No.The spin recovery technique for my John Deere is very different--------.Sorry,the spin recovery techniques sometimes differ because some aircraft require power addition for recovery,but for most, forward stick and opposite rudder until rotation stops and flying speed is obtained are pretty much standard.? Now that I'm out here on this limb someone may want to saw it off. ???? G.Aman MK-3C -----Original Message----- From: dalewhelan Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 1:06 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin training. I plan to get some. Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? Specifically, power off? -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:46 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump you will have to ask John H if he has spun one of his John Deeres. BB On 15, Aug 2009, at 1:06 PM, dalewhelan wrote: > > > I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin > training. I plan to get some. > Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? > Specifically, power off? > > -------- > Dale Whelan > 503 powered Firestar II > Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump From: zeprep251@aol.com Mike, ? I still think we have not enough info to make a judgment.My first thought was an uncommanded up elevator condition, just the opposite from yours,so it's still hard to say.The Feds say "loss of control".That still does not answer the big question,WHY. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? G.Aman MK-3-C -----Original Message----- From: JetPilot Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump Even though the report is short, it has some very good information in it. From the description of the non pilot witness, maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall. The fact that this was done three times and that the plane leveled out each time means that it was intentional. The flip over backwards and subsequent spin could very well happen in a badly executed hammerhead stall. John H, have you ever spun the MK III ? How many turns and what is it like ? I have seen Possums videos of spins in his Firestar, but the MK III being much heavier may be totally different in a spin. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257721#257721 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump From: zeprep251@aol.com Bet he has,at very low altitude and never with power off. -----Original Message----- From: robert bean Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 3:09 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump ? you will have to ask John H if he has spun one of his John Deeres.? BB? ? On 15, Aug 2009, at 1:06 PM, dalewhelan wrote:? ? >? > I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin > training. I plan to get some.? > Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor?? > Specifically, power off?? >? > --------? > Dale Whelan? > 503 powered Firestar II? > Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept? >? >? >? >? > Read this topic online here:? >? > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257810#257810? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:44 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump > you will have to ask John H if he has spun one of his John Deeres. > BB Bob B: Yep, they are both pushers. No problem with low altitude with the 1937 JD B. MKIII is another ball game. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:58 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump From: "JetPilot" zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: > Mike, > I still think we have not enough info to make a judgment.My first thought was an uncommanded up elevator condition, just the opposite from yours,so it's still hard to say.The Feds say "loss of control".That still does not answer the big question,WHY. > G.Aman MK-3-C > > I did seriously consider uncomanded pitch up at first, that is why I was so reluctant to make the assumption that Brad was doing aerobatics after reading the news report, and obvious lack of knowledge by the witness. What really changes things is when the NTSB reports that the plane had " Leveled Off " three times before the last maneuver. In an uncommanded pitch up, the airplane might pass through level a couple times, but " Level Off " very clearly means what it says, the plane was obviously under control three different times in this episode. I now have to go with the hammerhead stall and spin assumption at this point. Dana wrote: > At 11:54 AM 8/13/2009, > > Not if they're talking to a non pilot reporter... but somewhere I read that > in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness... because > their perception is influenced by that they think is happening. Accident > investigators say that a video camera, naturally, is the best witness. An > intelligent child is second best, because they describe what they see > without trying to interpret it. A non pilot adult is third, and a pilot is > the worst. > > I do take strong issue with this statement. If I was letting a person fly my plane and wanted to know how he was flying and if he was abusing the airplane or not, I could send someone out to the airport or the practice area to watch my airplane being flown from the ground and have them and report back to me. If I were to do this, I would most definitely send a qualified pilot do this, not some woman that had never flown an airplane before, or even less likely a kid. Any of you would really rather have a soccer mom tell you how your airplane was going flown than a qualified pilot ? Loss of control or intentional aerobatics, a experienced pilot would definitely be MUCH better able to tell the difference between the two rather than some woman or kid that knew nothing about flying. The statement above may sound appealing on some level, but when one really thinks about it , its total garbage. If John Hauck, myself, or any of a number of qualified pilots here had witnessed this accident, we would be a LOT more likely to give an accurate account of what happened rather than this witness saw the crash but knows nothing. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257840#257840 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:21 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Kolb-List: Spinning At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote: > >I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin >training. I plan to get some. >Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? >Specifically, power off? You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine. Don't think you'll want much power either, since your nose will be pointed at the ground anyway. Here's some pictures from the wing. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:07 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning Possums Your video is great. Thanx for showing everyone that a Kolb can be spun if it's in rig and the pilot is experienced/careful. It looks as tho a Kolb has no bad habits in a spin. I assume spins in both directions are similar? But this should NOT encourage Kolb pilots to try this without some supervision! Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver, with fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted the ground, the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but alive. Besides, they're fun! Russ K PS I admit I've never worked out a really good spin-recover technique in a car on ice. On Aug 15, 2009, at 5:40 PM, possums wrote: > > At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin >> training. I plan to get some. >> Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? >> Specifically, power off? > > > You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal > or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want > to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine. > Don't think you'll want much power either, since your nose > will be pointed at the ground anyway. > > Here's some pictures from the wing. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:01 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump There is an alternative possibility: Brad may have simply been demonstrating departure stalls. The non-aviation oriented witness could easily get the impression that he was attempting to go "straight up" After two, in which obviously it would appear that he was leveling off, he went for number three. (that's the part I can't figure) A very tall departure stall with the rudder kicked can do unpredictable things unless you have done the same thing MANY times in exactly the same way. It can fall off one one wing with the result dependent upon elevator position. Up elevator, exaggerated inverted spin entry. Usually won't initially go on its back but flop so quickly that the nose goes beyond center, giving you the sensation that you are going to somersault. Loose stuff flies around cabin. Elevator neutralized just ahead of stall. (still at full power) Plane SHOULD mush and nose fall through with normal recovery. If the angle is too steep a certain amount of vertical fall will have to happen before the nose falls Worst case is tail slide. Up elevator should be maintained to go to go right side up. Cut power. The right point for repowering is a question because all my experience in unusual positions is tractor. We will never know for sure. I recommend that Kolbs be used for what they were intended, casual rides for the geriatric. BB On 15, Aug 2009, at 3:54 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > > zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: >> Mike, >> I still think we have not enough info to make a judgment.My >> first thought was an uncommanded up elevator condition, just the >> opposite from yours,so it's still hard to say.The Feds say "loss >> of control".That still does not answer the big question,WHY. >> G.Aman MK-3-C >> >> > > > I did seriously consider uncomanded pitch up at first, that is why > I was so reluctant to make the assumption that Brad was doing > aerobatics after reading the news report, and obvious lack of > knowledge by the witness. > > What really changes things is when the NTSB reports that the plane > had " Leveled Off " three times before the last maneuver. In an > uncommanded pitch up, the airplane might pass through level a > couple times, but " Level Off " very clearly means what it says, > the plane was obviously under control three different times in this > episode. I now have to go with the hammerhead stall and spin > assumption at this point. > > > Dana wrote: >> At 11:54 AM 8/13/2009, >> >> Not if they're talking to a non pilot reporter... but somewhere I >> read that >> in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness... >> because >> their perception is influenced by that they think is happening. >> Accident >> investigators say that a video camera, naturally, is the best >> witness. An >> intelligent child is second best, because they describe what they see >> without trying to interpret it. A non pilot adult is third, and a >> pilot is >> the worst. >> >> > > > I do take strong issue with this statement. If I was letting a > person fly my plane and wanted to know how he was flying and if he > was abusing the airplane or not, I could send someone out to the > airport or the practice area to watch my airplane being flown from > the ground and have them and report back to me. If I were to do > this, I would most definitely send a qualified pilot do this, not > some woman that had never flown an airplane before, or even less > likely a kid. Any of you would really rather have a soccer mom > tell you how your airplane was going flown than a qualified > pilot ? Loss of control or intentional aerobatics, a experienced > pilot would definitely be MUCH better able to tell the difference > between the two rather than some woman or kid that knew nothing > about flying. > > The statement above may sound appealing on some level, but when one > really thinks about it , its total garbage. If John Hauck, > myself, or any of a number of qualified pilots here had witnessed > this accident, we would be a LOT more likely to give an accurate > account of what happened rather than this witness saw the crash but > knows nothing. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257840#257840 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:42 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Spinning Possums=2C After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins=2C I get the impr ession that you=3B A) had to make the Firestar spin B) were in absolute full control during the spin C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it D) were VERY high above the ground Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and b iting some inattentive pilot. In other words=2C stalls don't just "happen" =2C you have to want it to stall. Just my observation.... Mike Welch MkIII progress=2C stalled on purpose > Date: Sat=2C 15 Aug 2009 17:40:00 -0400 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > From: possums@bellsouth.net > Subject: Kolb-List: Spinning > > > At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009=2C you wrote: > > > >I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin > >training. I plan to get some. > >Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor? > >Specifically=2C power off? > > > You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal > or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want > to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine. > Don't think you'll want much power either=2C since your nose > will be pointed at the ground anyway. > > Here's some pictures from the wing. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e n-US:SI_PH_software:082009 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:08 PM PST US From: possums Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Spinning At 07:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote: >Possums, > > After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins, I get > the impression that you; > >A) had to make the Firestar spin >B) were in absolute full control during the spin >C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it >D) were VERY high above the ground Yeah - Beauford told me to cut the power, stomp on the rudder pedal, yank the stick back as far as it would go and see if I could count to ten. Done four - don't think I want to do ten. Air speed never got over 65 mph ........like he said. Mine doesn't seem to wind up much though. I could see how you could use it to get through a cloud layer if you knew you had 2,000 feet or so of clear air above the ground. I've done it the other way, and I didn't like it much - takes too long and I didn't know which was is up after a minute or two. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6787107193246239411 "Neutral does it for the firefly... soon as I turn it loose it stops rotation and begins to fly...no opposite rudder or forward pop on the stick needed...highest I have seen on ASI is 65 while it was spinning... It does spin nose almost straight down...not like a cub or champ....feels different...also likes to wind up... 3 turns is most I have let it go, but it was still winding up when I released the back pressure and inside rudder... I betcha an 8 or 10 turn doober could be eye-watering. I ain't gonna find out." Beauford T ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:08 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: hours vs experience From: "Ralph B" > Ted C: > > Now I am confused. I don't know whether to replace the hour meter in my mkIII with a "year meter" or an "experience meter". > > With all this confusion, I updated my hours in my profile so my experience in a Kolb reflects how long that I've been flying them. Not as long as some, but more than others. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be giving advice. What do you think? -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 960 hours 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257902#257902 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:42 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: hours vs experience Ralph, give it! No one is forced to take it. The intelligent ones will. On Aug 15, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Ralph B wrote: > > >> Ted C: >> >> Now I am confused. I don't know whether to replace the hour meter >> in my mkIII with a "year meter" or an "experience meter". >> >> > > > With all this confusion, I updated my hours in my profile so my > experience in a Kolb reflects how long that I've been flying them. > Not as long as some, but more than others. I don't know, maybe I > shouldn't be giving advice. What do you think? > > -------- > Ralph B > Original Firestar 447 > N91493 E-AB > 960 hours > 22 years flying it > Kolbra 912UL > N20386 > 1 year flying it > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257902#257902 > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:48 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Kolb-List: MULA Flyin at Purdy Field I just got back from a wonderful day at the MULA flyin at Purdy field outside of Durand, MI. The weather was better than wonderful. Had a tail wind all the way there and some of the way back home. Smooth air and sunny skies. Some haze with hot sunny sky all day. There was a record turn out. Except for a few campers near mid field the planes were lined up wing tip to wing tip the full length of the 1800 ft field. There were three Firestars, one mark II and one MKIIIC. There was just a bit of airplane talk under the wings of our airplanes all day irrupted by trips to the food line. Barbequed chicken was the mail lunch meal with many other choices at very reasonable prices. The smooth flight home flying in wide formation next to Jim Swan in his Firestar topped off a great day. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:43 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: hours vs experience > With all this confusion, I updated my hours in my profile so my experience in a Kolb reflects how long that I've been flying them. Not as long as some, but more than others. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be giving advice. What do you think? > > -------- > Ralph B > Original Firestar 447 > N91493 E-AB > 960 hours > 22 years flying it > Kolbra 912UL > N20386 > 1 year flying it Ralph B: I don't give advice. I wouldn't feel too good about advising someone to do something to or with their Kolb, then they out and bust their butt. I share the good and the bad. Folks can take it or leave it for what it is worth. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:44 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning > Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud > layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver, with > fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted the ground, > the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but alive. > Besides, they're fun! > Russ K Russ K: Think you wrote about this once before. I don't recommend you try spinning any airplane into the ground. I can assure you, you will not walk away and you will not be dizzy. You will probably not be alive. I don't know what the school definition is of a spin, but to me it is not a stable maneuver. To me, it is an uncontrolled maneuver until control is regained when exiting the spin. In a Kolb, the nose is nearly straight down, and it seems more like a spiral than a spin. I can assure you altitude is rapidly lost. I've spun every Kolb I have built and owned, but I don't enjoy going out and doing spins for fun anymore. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:30 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning Mike W: I, personally, don't think there is any control of a Kolb during a spin, not until after recovery has been initiated and accomplished. During the spin there is really nothing to do except bite holes in the seat cushion. My original Firestar had to have the controls crossed up and locked to spin, and then it would only spin a half turn and fly out of the spin with the controls still locked. That was with the engine at idle. While experimenting with engine off aerobatics, I tried a spin. Dead stick,it spun up and would not recover until control was relaxed on stick and pedals. The MKIII, being a much heavier aircraft than the Firestar falls out of the sky in a spin. Can't remember how many feet it takes to recovery from time of initiation to recovery in a one revolution spin, but it is enough to warn you not to try one close to the ground. Inadvertent stalls only occur when the pilot is not paying attention, has diversion of attention, and is usually close to the ground. It is the inattentive pilot that is going to bite the dust. Stalls do happen. The desire to stall does not have to be part of the equation by any means. Kolbs are not prone to spin. One reason is the outboard end of the wing does not stall, therefore we still have aileron/roll control and some lift to keep a wing from dropping. However, if you stall close to the ground, you probably will not have time to recover before impact. Unlike some of the pilots on this List, I keep a cross check of my ASI when I am close to the ground, and especially during landing. Only takes me an instant to know where my ASI needle is pointing. I don't have to stare at the ASI to know how fast I am flying. It is the only way to know if I am keeping a safe margin above the stall. Even more important when winds are changing direction on me. I can not use perceived ground speed as an airspeed reference to keep me above the stall. One can get away with a lot of "stuff" in a Kolb, but it is that one little incident that will get you. Been there and done that, more than once. Hopefully, I am learning. john h mkIII After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins, I get the impression that you; A) had to make the Firestar spin B) were in absolute full control during the spin C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it D) were VERY high above the ground Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and biting some inattentive pilot. In other words, stalls don't just "happen", you have to want it to stall. Just my observation.... Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:32 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Spinning From: "ces308" Stalls in my M3X are so gentle you don't even lose any altitude....they are fun to do...you can really learn how to fly it right on the edge of slow flight with out worrying about whats going to happen.I did some stalls last week in mine and recorded it...take a look....and notice all the stalling I was doing..I lost no altitude..I will have the outside view next time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHpS2rqp2bk chris ambrose M3X/jab 47.1hrs N327CS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257928#257928 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:59 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: hours vs experience There have been some well meaning and well written comments. But,,,,,,,I never saw anything said by anyone that we should have X hours to give advice. I think there was a misunderstanding of what was written. Someone got his nose out of joint but there was nothing to get worked up over. I think the whole issue hours vs. years is a chest pounding display of one upmanship but I'm not one of the top dogs so I would. Why don't we just move on. Remember there is only one stupid question and it is the one that doesn't get asked. Also the advise given is best when it is given "to help others". Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:58 PM PST US From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning When I got my pilot training many years ago in 1947. We did spin training t raining as part of our lessons. This was in an old (new at the time) 1946 -"Air Nocker" Champ. We were required to call out the number of turns we we we were going to make and also the heading, any at North----- South or East or West or any 90 degree heading. For me, it was a lot of fun .. I could come out on my heading every time very easy. The Champ spun rathe r flat and not very fast so- it was no problem. My flight instructor ( An ex Marine Corsier fighter pilot) also told me it was an easy to Way to los e altitude.=0A--- BUT, I have bulit and flown a Hi Max, a Firestar an d a Firestar II and I never attemped to spin any of those because I didn't know how they would react.=0A--- I therefore would not recomend doing it in any of our Kolbs unless talking to someone who had done it a number of times to see how it would react. Also no Kolb is built exactly as yours. ..=0A--- For what its worth.=0A----- The Old Az. Bald Eagle =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Hauck =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, August 15, 2 009 8:00:16 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning=0A=0A=0AMike W:=0A-=0AI , personally, don't think there is any control of a Kolb during a spin, not until after recovery has been initiated and accomplished.- During the sp in there is really nothing to do except bite holes in the seat cushion.=0A -=0AMy original Firestar had to have the controls crossed up and locked t o spin, and then it would only spin a half turn and fly out of the spin wit h the controls still locked.- That was with the engine at idle.- While experimenting with engine off aerobatics, I tried a spin.- Dead stick,it spun up and would not recover until control was relaxed on stick and pedals ..=0A-=0AThe MKIII, being a much heavier aircraft than the Firestar falls out of the sky in a spin.- Can't remember how many feet it takes to recov ery from time of initiation to recovery in a one revolution spin, but it is enough to warn you not to try one close to the ground.=0A-=0AInadvertent stalls only occur when the pilot is not paying attention, has diversion of attention, and is usually close to the ground.- It is the inattentive pi lot that is going to bite the dust.- Stalls do happen.- The desire to s tall does not have to be part of the equation by any means.=0A-=0AKolbs a re not prone to spin.- One reason is the outboard end of the wing does no t stall, therefore we still have aileron/roll control and some lift to keep a wing from dropping.- However, if you stall close to the ground, you pr obably will not have time to recover before impact.=0A-=0AUnlike some of the pilots on this List, I keep a cross check of my ASI when I am close to the ground, and especially during landing.- Only takes me an instant to k now where my ASI needle is pointing.- I don't have to stare at the ASI to know how fast I am flying.- It is the only way to know if I am keeping a safe margin above the stall.- Even more important when winds are changin g direction on me.- I can not use perceived ground speed as an airspeed r eference to keep me above the stall.=0A-=0AOne can get away with a lot of "stuff" in a Kolb, but it is that one little incident that-will get you. =0A-=0ABeen there and done that, more than once.- Hopefully, I am learn ing.=0A-=0Ajohn h=0AmkIII=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-- After watching the v ideo of you and your Firestar spins, I get the impression that you;=0A>- =0A>A) had to make the Firestar spin=0A>B)-were in absolute full control during the spin=0A>C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to e nd it=0A>D) were VERY high above the ground=0A>-=0A>- Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and biting some inattent ive pilot.- In other words, stalls don't just "happen", you have to want it to stall.=0A>- Just my observation....=0A>-=0A>Mike Welch=0A>-=0A =================0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:34 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Spinning From: "dalewhelan" Thanks guys -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257941#257941 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.