---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/24/09: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:14 AM - Re: Videos of yesterday's flight in Miami (Tony Oldman) 2. 04:53 AM - Hot Dog Day in western New York (Thom Riddle) 3. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Kolb attended fly-in (zeprep251@aol.com) 4. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (Eugene Zimmerman) 5. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (pj.ladd) 6. 08:17 AM - Re: Non-stop to Pat Ladd ;-) (Eugene Zimmerman) 7. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (John Hauck) 8. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (pj.ladd) 9. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Filter Failure (pj.ladd) 10. 08:55 AM - Re: Videos of yesterday's flight in Miami (Watkinsdw) 11. 09:37 AM - Re: Fuel Filter Failure (JetPilot) 12. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (Eugene Zimmerman) 13. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (John Hauck) 14. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Filter Failure (pj.ladd) 15. 01:10 PM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (possums) 16. 01:10 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Filter Failure (robert bean) 17. 01:23 PM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (Jack B. Hart) 18. 01:23 PM - Re: Lindbergh and his flight (Jmmy Hankinson) 19. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (robert bean) 20. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: First Flight follow-up, (John Hauck) 21. 02:32 PM - Re: First Flight follow-up, (JetPilot) 22. 03:41 PM - Wingtips (John Hauck) 23. 04:49 PM - Re: First Flight follow-up, (Thom Riddle) 24. 05:09 PM - Re: Wingtips (Richard Girard) 25. 05:29 PM - Re: Wingtips (JetPilot) 26. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: Wingtips (John Hauck) 27. 06:08 PM - Re: Wingtips (JetPilot) 28. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Filter Failure (Herb) 29. 06:16 PM - Re: Wingtips (robert bean) 30. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Wingtips (Herb) 31. 06:39 PM - Re: Wingtips (planecrazzzy) 32. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: Wingtips (Jim Kmet) 33. 07:21 PM - Firestar questions (Dana Hague) 34. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: Wingtips (Richard Girard) 35. 07:24 PM - Re: Wingtips (Richard Pike) 36. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Wingtips (John Hauck) 37. 07:42 PM - Wingtips (John Hauck) 38. 07:44 PM - Fw: Re: Wingtips (John Hauck) 39. 09:05 PM - Re: Wingtips (Eugene Zimmerman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:03 AM PST US From: "Tony Oldman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Videos of yesterday's flight in Miami great vidio, well done, Not sure I would fell that comfortable in that location with my 503 MK111c. Tony Downunder MK111c ----- Original Message ----- From: "Watkinsdw" Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 8:38 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Videos of yesterday's flight in Miami > > Greetings, Folks, > Jeff and I flew our new (5 months) MKIII-C down the coast from KPMP to Key > Biscayne, did a low pass at Homestead Air Reserve Base (started to fall > asleep after the first two miles of concrete,) and over to X51, where Mike > (Jet Pilot) lives. Missed Mike, since he and his mates were off to the > Keys for the day, but we did try out my inadequate digital camera on the > way back up the beach. Thought it might be fun for you to check out. > > The buildings were cool, but I think due to the Lexan and the lens, we got > a lot of shimmery polarizing lines. > Still fun, and a great flight! > > Enjoy, > > Dave and Jeff > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP9YB4hoM9Q > > (If this link doesn't work, search "S. FL Skyline from Kolb" > There are several other clips from the flight. My Youtube handle is > "Sabbatical100". > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259197#259197 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Hot Dog Day in western New York From: "Thom Riddle" Yesterday was Hot Dog Day at Bethany Airpark (8NK4) in western New York. I flew my SS there and Bob Bean flew his Porsche 928 there. I should have taken a photo of BB's Porsche but didn't. Maybe he will supply one to the list. The weather was a bit threatening and I ran into a light shower going to the fly-in. On the way home there were heavy localized showers that I barely avoided. Attached are a few photos. The red RV-4 was built by a friend who flies 747s for a living. The young fellow standing in front of my SS is a new student at a nearby airport, the future of aviation. The green Whitman Buttercup was built by Earl Luce and he won some sort of an award at Osh this year. A really nice airplane. Earls said it could qualify for light sport if the movable leading edge device was permanently extended to get the stall speed down to 45 knots. His 0-200 powered Buttercup cruises at up to 130 mph. The red and white Luscombe did a take-off, did a left crosswind and then suddlenly turned back to the airport and landed downwind and barely stopped before running out of runway. He thought he had major engine problem from the loud noise. Turns out he had left one of the seat belts out flapping against the fuselage. Check lists anyone? -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259249#259249 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00589_191.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00588_199.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00587_150.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00586_159.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb attended fly-in From: zeprep251@aol.com Christal. ? Yes it is.Quite a few people drive in to the breakfast ?G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: cristalclear13 Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 10:00 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb attended fly-in zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: > Once a year Ed Yasechko hosts a free fly-in steak and eggs breakfast.Honest.here are some picts from this Sundays event.Ed is the guy in the white shirt in the first pict.Some nice folks up north in Oh. I hope that's not champagne in those glasses, and if it is I hope the pilots came with a "designated driver". [Shocked] -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259226#259226 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:29 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:30 AM, John Hauck wrote: > I have never flown a Kolb that could be flown with rudder alone, > more than a very short time. When they begin to roll, rudder alone > will not pick up tyhe wing. Because they lack any significant > dihedral, if you lose aileron control, be nice to have a parachute. John, I can fly indefinitely and pick up either wing in a bank with rudder only in my plane. I believe it is due to the Hoerner type mod I have done to my wing tips. None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capability. Gene Z ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:18 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Brad Stump the UK, where (as I understand it) you can only build from an approved design, and no deviation from the original approved design or operating limitations is permissible.>> Hi Dana, The first part is certainly correct. You can only buy a kit or completed a/c if it conforms to `Section S` Approval will only be granted after it has been passed by British Microlight Assoc. or Light Aircraft Assoc who hold delegated powers from the CAA. This sometimes means that a/c which are used the world over need some changes to fly here. The Kolb 3Xtra for instance would not have been approved with the Jabiru without VG`s fitted. If you want to change something markedly, new prop/engine combination, altering dihedral, cutting a couple of feet off the wings then you can put your proposal to the LAA or BMA and their engineering division will look at it. They may suggest a better way of achieving what you want, tell you it has been tried and it produced a cranky or non conforming a/c. They will often do engineering analysis of your suggestion but their decision is final. The authorities are not unreasonable and are generally helpful but if they say don`t do it, listen. We have recently introduced a very light category and under that regime you can do more or less what you like. Desigh, alter etc.,. Anything as long as its below the specified weight. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:16 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Non-stop to Pat Ladd ;-) On Aug 22, 2009, at 10:45 PM, John Hauck wrote: > I could have done it on 233.3 gal in about 43 hours, if I could haul > 1400 lbs of fuel. ;-) > Fill your boom tube and wing spar tubes with fuel and add a large belly tank pontoon ,,,,,, there is no doubt that you could do it. 2400 lbs is only 2.5 G your plane is stressed for 4 G positive. Gene Z ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:29 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, Gene:Didn't you also add some additional dihedral to your wings? I don't have a photo of your Kolb handy. john h mkIII On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:30 AM, John Hauck wrote: I have never flown a Kolb that could be flown with rudder alone, more t han a very short time. When they begin to roll, rudder alone will not pick up tyhe wing. Because they lack any significant dihedral, if you lose aile ron control, be nice to have a parachute. John, I can fly indefinitely and pick up either wing in a bank with rudder on ly in my plane. I believe it is due to the Hoerner type mod I have done to my wing tips. None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capab ility. Gene Z ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:04 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, find a regular storm of many outraged responses. >> Hi Herb, get used to it. Some of the listers seem to have very short fuses. I have been accused of everything from having no experience to being anti American because I have explained that we do thinks differently this side of the pond. Not better, just differently. But the majority are helpful, have more hours and miles under their wings than you could shake a stick at, and talk sound sense. Perhaps you gave the wrong impression about how bad things were with your plane. If your plane really wants to roll and takes a lot of stick to fly level look at your wing root attachments. There is room for a fair amount of adjustment by arranging the washers. I have mine full up on one side and full down on the other. If the plane rolls gently just because you are sitting on one side of the centre line a bungee round the stick to give a little leverage will suffice. Ignore he diatribes, take the advice given, apply common sense to the suggestions made and you will be fine. A couple of years ago I drove my brand new Mark3Xtra into a barn. Everyone was full of condolences and good wishes at the time but that doesn`t stop them occassionally reminding me that I was a bloody idiot . As if I need reminding! Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:20 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Filter Failure 103-7 is a category that most nationalities are not lucky enough to have. It takes real mechanical discipline to make it work and stay legal. >> Hi Robert, An interesting list of mods. I would think there is a good chance that if those mods were proposed to our licensing autthority they would be allowed providing that the basic requirements of our Section `S` were not broken . Within weight limits. Landing speed low enough, which depends on a formula involving the wing area. C of G within limits Your seat would probably be not looked on favourably. My standard Kolb seat was not considered strong enough to resist a hard landing and a plate had to be inserted. Of course `allowed` is like a red rag to a bull to some of the listers who consider that they have the `right` to endanger themselves and others as they see fit. Themselves.. I would probably agree with. Others...there is the rub. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:08 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Videos of yesterday's flight in Miami From: "Watkinsdw" Thanks, Guys, Glad you enjoyed the video. Sorry about the quality... The dots on the windscreen are horizon markers for us as we get the "sight picture" ingrained in our heads for landing. We're still newbies, having bought our MkIII-C from Steven Green in May. As far as the airspace goes, you're right- Class Bravo overlays much of the area we flew, but at 500 ft agl, we were out of the way. We also had a discrete txpnder code and flight following going for us. ATC was very accommodating from Ft Lauderdale through Miami and Homestead Air Reserve Base (HST), both ways! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259291#259291 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:37 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Filter Failure From: "JetPilot" pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > > > Of course `allowed` is like a red rag to a bull to some of the listers who > consider that they have the `right` to endanger themselves and others as > they see fit. Themselves.. I would probably agree with. Others...there is > the rub. > > Cheers > > Pat Pat, I fully support the right of some on this list to endanger themselves as much as they like. It is a shame that some here with two seat airplanes will put unsuspecting passengers at risk, but I still support our system of letting builders do what they like with experimental aircraft. To put things back in perspective, any 18 year old can get into a 5000 pound SUV and drive like a total idiot with little to no consequence. Anyone can get a drivers license, get in a large SUV or truck, and pass within several feet of other cars full of people on the highway at 110 MPH closing speed all day long. We have about 40,000 deaths in auto accidents each year, and still ANYONE can get a license, and drive recklessly with little to no consequence. To get uptight about small airplanes and waste a bunch of enforcement effort, inspections, and government manpower on them while ignoring the highway problem is nothing short of stupid on the governments part. Its nothing but pandering to peoples paranoia about airplanes while ignoring real dangers to the public. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259300#259300 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:38 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, On Aug 24, 2009, at 10:33 AM, John Hauck wrote: > Gene:Didn't you also add some additional dihedral to your wings? > > I don't have a photo of your Kolb handy. > > john h > mkIII > > > On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:30 AM, John Hauck wrote: > >> I have never flown a Kolb that could be flown with rudder alone, >> more than a very short time. When they begin to roll, rudder alone >> will not pick up tyhe wing. Because they lack any significant >> dihedral, if you lose aileron control, be nice to have a parachute. > > > John, > > I can fly indefinitely and pick up either wing in a bank with > rudder only in my plane. > I believe it is due to the Hoerner type mod I have done to my wing > tips. > > None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that > capability. > > Gene Z > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, Looks good. Glad it works. Must be those tips. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:08 PM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Filter Failure Its nothing but pandering to peoples paranoia about airplanes while ignoring real dangers to the public. Hi Mike, absolutely true. there should be graded exams to drive more powerful cars. To let someone who has just passed there driving exam (which should be much more difficult) walk out and get in a Porsche is nuts. Of course anyone driving a SUV should be shot on sight on priciple. To drive at 120 mph closing speed separated by a coat of paint on the road doesn`t bear thinking about. We have just had a couple of Americans staying with us for the last week to celebrate my 80th birthday. I offered to pick him up by car from Heathrow. He declined on the gounds that he did not want to be driven down the motorway at a speed equal to the drivers age. Some years ago I picked up an American from Heathrow. He had been on standby at JFK for a couple of days, then the flight was late arriving around 9 at night. He fell asleep almost as soon as I hit the motorway. Then he would open his eyes and scream to find himself being driven down the wrong way on the motorway, against a stream of lights in the dark at 80mph or over. This was when you had 50mph im;posed. He just screwed his eyes tight shut and curled into a foetal ball. Cheers Pat. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:25 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, At 09:38 AM 8/24/2009, you wrote: >John, > >I can fly indefinitely and pick up either wing in a bank with >rudder only in my plane. >I believe it is due to the Hoerner type mod I have done to my wing tips. > >None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that >capability. > >Gene Z Yep - I'll bet it's the tips. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:57 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Filter Failure Blimey! y'ole geezer. They should take yer keys away forthright. har har, (where'd I put those porsche keys) BB On 24, Aug 2009, at 3:50 PM, pj.ladd wrote: > > Its nothing but pandering to peoples paranoia about airplanes while > ignoring real dangers to the public. > > Hi Mike, > > absolutely true. there should be graded exams to drive more > powerful cars. To let someone who has just passed there driving > exam (which should be much more difficult) walk out and get in a > Porsche is nuts. > > Of course anyone driving a SUV should be shot on sight on priciple. > > To drive at 120 mph closing speed separated by a coat of paint on > the road doesn`t bear thinking about. > > We have just had a couple of Americans staying with us for the last > week to celebrate my 80th birthday. I offered to pick him up by car > from Heathrow. > He declined on the gounds that he did not want to be driven down > the motorway at a speed equal to the drivers age. > > Some years ago I picked up an American from Heathrow. He had been > on standby at JFK for a couple of days, then the flight was late > arriving around 9 at night. > He fell asleep almost as soon as I hit the motorway. Then he would > open his eyes and scream to find himself being driven down the > wrong way on the motorway, against a stream of lights in the dark > at 80mph or over. This was when you had 50mph im;posed. He just > screwed his eyes tight shut and curled into a foetal ball. > > Cheers > > Pat. > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:01 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, From: Eugene Zimmerman > John, I can fly indefinitely and pick up either wing in a bank with rudder only in my plane. I believe it is due to the Hoerner type mod I have done to my wing tips. None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capability. > Gene, Just some thoughts. There a couple of other factors that may help you. Your lateral cg is centered and this puts equal load on each wing. Also, you engine and propeller combination may weigh less than John's so your vertical cg is lower. Both of these factors will promote increased lateral stability given equal dihedral. I have never let go of the stick and tried to fly the FireFly with just rudder and throttle. I have put it on the short list to try. I do know that when I had the 15 inch chord ailerons on the FireFly and flew to my EAA Chapter meetings at Painton, I could not level the wings at cruise speed. I just had to wait for the FireFly to right its self, but most of the time I kicked a rudder pedal to help lift the low wing. After changing to nine inch ailerons, and adding VG's, all I had to do was apply a little side pressure to keep the FireFly from rolling when passing a wing tip through a thermal. FWIW Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:01 PM PST US From: "Jmmy Hankinson" Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Lindbergh and his flight You can always learn something on this list. I went to the Lindbergh web site and read some of his flight record. After his historic flight, he made a tour of the US, visiting all states. What was interesting was that He visited several Towns near my home. Vidalia Georgia (60 miles)(Home of the Vidalia Onions). McRay, Georgia (65 Miles), and Millen, Georgia (12 miles). I worked in Millen, Ga. for 47 years at one plant before retiring. My home airport is JYL, Sylvania, Georgia. Do Not Archive Jimmy Hankinson Rocky Ford, Ga. Firefly N6007L ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:14 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, Very nice work both of you. There may be a bit more vortex induced but the stabilizing effect is worth it. I'll wait until I hit something before I go in there. BB On 24, Aug 2009, at 4:03 PM, possums wrote: > At 09:38 AM 8/24/2009, you wrote: > >> John, >> >> I can fly indefinitely and pick up either wing in a bank with >> rudder only in my plane. >> I believe it is due to the Hoerner type mod I have done to my >> wing tips. >> >> None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had >> that capability. >> >> Gene Z > > Yep - I'll bet it's the tips. > > <0.JPG><5 IM002601.jpg><4.JPG> ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:31 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, From: "possums" > > Yep - I'll bet it's the tips. Damn, they're sprouting up all over. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:01 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, From: "JetPilot" [quote="etzimm(at)gmail.com"] wing in a bank with rudder only in my plane. I believe it is due to the Hoerner type mod I have done to my wing tips. None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capability. Gene Z > [b] Gene Z, That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips ! The stock wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of the plane. I know John H will take offense to this, but no plane on the planet is designed perfectly from day one, and even the best planes ever produced have been improved over the years. The Kolb is no different, a good plane, but still can be made a lot better. Any plane design that is not improved over time is at risk of becoming outdated and ceasing production. Once I saw the new wingtips Kolb put on the MK III Xtra, I have been thinking about what to do about my old style and inefficient wingtips. I like the Droop tips, but I do not do fiberglass work that well, and I still think I can do better with hoerner type wingtips. I did a lot of research on wingtips and thier effect on airplanes, and decided to put Hoerner wingtips on my MK III Xtra. I have even gone as far as to buy all the parts needed to do this from Kolb, and have them sitting in my Workshop. It is just a matter of finishing another plane before I do this project on my Kolb. Did you change your wingtips on an existing plane, or did you build the plane with them from day one ??? I would really be interested to get your performance numbers and any other differences you notice in flight characteristics. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259359#259359 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:46 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Wingtips > That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips ! The stock wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of the plane. > > Mike I took the liberty to change the subject line to something similar to what is being discussed. This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with wingtips that, "are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of the plane." How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction? I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably would disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself. In fact, doesn't surprise me at all, but I would like an explanation on why Homer Kolb's wingtip is so very poor. How is this new wingtip going to improve the flying qualities of Kolb aircraft? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:03 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: First Flight follow-up, From: "Thom Riddle" I can't say what the Hoerner style wingtips will do for a Kolb wing but can tell you they make a world of difference on a Cherokee 140. Can't tell much difference at high cruise but slow flight lateral control and stability were much improved over the standard Cherokee wingtips. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x34 A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259383#259383 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wingtips From: Richard Girard John, Despite the fact that this will surely cause much heat but little light, the truth of the matter is that we can never really know. Kolb wings may have the same basic design but each one is "customized" to a greater ot lesser degree. There were pictures on here a few years ago of one set of "improvements" that added 20lb. The guy who built my wings was of the ilk that believed if you can see any of the fabric weave you haven't shot enough Aerothane. I estimate my aircraft is 100lb. overweight because of this (including the tail). I'm sure there are wings that are built absolutely plans stock and have the lightest cover job possible. How would you go about telling anything about the aircraft performance of the three aircraft and isolate the wing tip as contributing what? You can't. If you could build one set of wings and put on changeable wing tips, tuft and oil test each one, instrument the aircraft with lab grade calibrated units, have ten different pilots fly the same test program and document the results maybe you'd be able to make a few deductions. Would they be applicable to the next guy who just has to make his "improvements"? Who knows?For my money, I'll either recover my wings and tail and try to get performance that way, or build the wings I've been toying with and see how that goes. If I do the former, I'll have a near stock Kolb Mk III, if I do the latter, I'll have something completely different. Will it help anyone else? Who knows? Rick Girard do not archive On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 5:25 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips ! The stock > wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the > design of the plane. > >> >> Mike >> > > I took the liberty to change the subject line to something similar to what > is being discussed. > > This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with wingtips that, > "are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of > the plane." > > How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction? > > I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably would > disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself. In fact, doesn't > surprise me at all, but I would like an explanation on why Homer Kolb's > wingtip is so very poor. > > How is this new wingtip going to improve the flying qualities of Kolb > aircraft? > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:25 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips From: "JetPilot" Dear John H, As much as I would like to take credit for the wingtip idea, I did not seriously consider changing wingtips until Kolb came up with the new design on their MK III Xtra. The minute I saw them, I knew it would be a huge improvement. Your flight test reports confirmed it, the stall speeds with the new wingtips were much reduced compared to my otherwise nearly identical MK III Xtra were before I added VG's. Your cruise speeds was also higher with the same engine, airframe and prop. Once I saw Kolb do this, I decided to add better wingtips, it was just a matter of what they would be. I decided on the Hoerner for simplicity, no fiberglass, and a great record of performance. The type wingtips on the Kolb now are horrible aerodynamically, exactly why is way beyond what I can cover here, but the information is available all over the Internet if you research it. The fact that no major aircraft design for the last 50 years ( Except for a few specialty aircraft and Antique Copies ) has used the Kolb wingtip design should be your first clue. The current Kolb design wingtps are not used in any meaningful way because they have horrible performance and characteristics. Kolb, Myself, and more than a few builders here have decided to use a better performing type wingtip. My wingtip will use a lot of what Kolb has done with thier factory MK III Xtra, extend the spar by 2 feet, and my wingtip will be a hoerner wingtip instead of the fiberglass one. Horner wingtips are used on a huge number of General aviation airplanes with great success, the information on their performance has been well documented on countless airplanes for over 50 years. As I said before, EVERY major airplane in history has undergone design changes, why should the Kolbs be any different ? You have many improvements in your Kolb, that is not a slap in the face to Homer Kolb, it is progress, and I think Homer approved of them. The 737, the most popular airliner in history now has new wingtips, do you think the original design team from the early 1960's needs to " Defend " themselves ? I bet those now very old guys take a lot of pride in the fact that the 737 has been in production for over 40 years, and I doubt they are in any way offended by the new wingtips the 737 now has standard. Yet you imply that Homer would be offended because some have found a way to improve his airplane, I think you are just wrong about this. I think Homer would be very happy to see his airplane continue to be improved, so that his design can be compete in the marketplace and be produced for a long time to come. There are a lot of new and really good aircraft designs out there, Kolb needs to continue to develop and improve to keep this design competitive. As always I am not telling you that you should change your airplane in any way, so no need to even go there. But what I am saying is that myself and others have nicer flying Kolbs with properly designed and better performing wingtips. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259390#259390 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:06 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips > As always I am not telling you that you should change your airplane in any way, so no need to even go there. But what I am saying is that myself and others have nicer flying Kolbs with properly designed and better performing wingtips. > > Mike Mike: Now I am jealous, "myself and others have nicer flying Kolbs with properly designed and better performing wingtips." That statement would be much more believeable if you had done the modifications and could present your results to the List. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:21 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips From: "JetPilot" aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: > > > John, Despite the fact that this will surely cause much heat but little light, the truth of the matter is that we can never really know. > > How would you go about telling anything about the aircraft performance of the three aircraft and isolate the wing tip as contributing what? You can't > > Rick Girard > > Rick Girard, In the first line of your post, you start by doing your best to imply to readers that no good information will come of this wingtip discussion... " much heat and little light "... Why are you afraid of a little factual discussion about wingtips ??? The fact that you start out by trying to distract people away from intelligent discussion on this subject tells me that you have no interest in helping anyone here improve their Kolbs. Your next statements are just plain wrong. There has been much research done on wingtips and what they will do for airplanes of different classes. Many aircraft designers design airplanes with efficient wingtips with good aerodynamic characteristics on GA, LSA, and many airplanes in our class airplanes because it is already known what advantages certain wingtip designs offer. Contrary to your assertions, we do know what many wingtip designs have to offer and what improvements we can expect from them. Its to bad that you feel the need to try to mislead people, dismiss accepted aerodynamic theory, and prevent a discussion that could help them improve their Kolbs. The fact that you don't know much about wingtips is fine with me, thats why many people read this forum, to learn about Kolbs. Not everyone can knowledgeable about airplanes and aerodynamics and I do not expect it. What I do take offense to is when people like you post information that is just plain wrong and is a disservice to people here on the list. There is a lot to be learned by discussing Kolbs wingtips, and improvements the Kolb factory, and others are doing to make them better.... Why are you doing your best to mislead people and prevent this discussion ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259394#259394 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:37 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Filter Failure You forgot to mention the cell phone...Mike...unbelievable the number of idiots on the road with them stuck in their ears while driving.. That said...I suspect that the statistics favor the auto over UL's , given the miles or number of vehicles ...Herb At 11:37 AM 8/24/2009, you wrote: > > >pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > > > > > > Of course `allowed` is like a red rag to a bull to some of the listers who > > consider that they have the `right` to endanger themselves and others as > > they see fit. Themselves.. I would probably agree with. Others...there is > > the rub. > > > > Cheers > > > > Pat > > >Pat, > >I fully support the right of some on this list to endanger >themselves as much as they like. It is a shame that some here with >two seat airplanes will put unsuspecting passengers at risk, but I >still support our system of letting builders do what they like with >experimental aircraft. > >To put things back in perspective, any 18 year old can get into a >5000 pound SUV and drive like a total idiot with little to no >consequence. Anyone can get a drivers license, get in a large SUV >or truck, and pass within several feet of other cars full of people >on the highway at 110 MPH closing speed all day long. We have about >40,000 deaths in auto accidents each year, and still ANYONE can get >a license, and drive recklessly with little to no consequence. To >get uptight about small airplanes and waste a bunch of enforcement >effort, inspections, and government manpower on them while ignoring >the highway problem is nothing short of stupid on the governments >part. Its nothing but pandering to peoples paranoia about >airplanes while ignoring real dangers to the public. > >Mike > >-------- >"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as >you could have !!! > >Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259300#259300 > > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >08/24/09 06:05:00 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:32 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wingtips Old aviation rule of thumb: everything you do to change the plane will add 5 knots. Put it on, add 5 take it back off, add 5 more. Can't lose. :) BB On 24, Aug 2009, at 6:25 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips ! > The stock wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got > really wrong in the design of the plane. >> >> Mike > > I took the liberty to change the subject line to something similar > to what is being discussed. > > This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with > wingtips that, "are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got > really wrong in the design of the plane." > > How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction? > > I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably > would disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself. > In fact, doesn't surprise me at all, but I would like an > explanation on why Homer Kolb's wingtip is so very poor. > > How is this new wingtip going to improve the flying qualities of > Kolb aircraft? > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:36 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips Gotta think that the 4 extra feet of wing helped a bunch.. :-) My other notion is that the drooped tip would not be any better than a Whitman or Hoerner tip.. on the factory MkIIIX The idea in any case is to reduce tip vortices ...and therefore ,Drag.. Herb At 07:29 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote: > >Dear John H, > >As much as I would like to take credit for the wingtip idea, I did >not seriously consider changing wingtips until Kolb came up with the >new design on their MK III Xtra. The minute I saw them, I knew it >would be a huge improvement. Your flight test reports confirmed it, >the stall speeds with the new wingtips were much reduced compared to >my otherwise nearly identical MK III Xtra were before I added >VG's. Your cruise speeds was also higher with the same engine, >airframe and prop. Once I saw Kolb do this, I decided to add better >wingtips, it was just a matter of what they would be. I decided on >the Hoerner for simplicity, no fiberglass, and a great record of performance. > >The type wingtips on the Kolb now are horrible aerodynamically, >exactly why is way beyond what I can cover here, but the information >is available all over the Internet if you research it. The fact >that no major aircraft design for the last 50 years ( Except for a >few specialty aircraft and Antique Copies ) has used the Kolb >wingtip design should be your first clue. The current Kolb design >wingtps are not used in any meaningful way because they have >horrible performance and characteristics. Kolb, Myself, and more >than a few builders here have decided to use a better performing >type wingtip. My wingtip will use a lot of what Kolb has done with >thier factory MK III Xtra, extend the spar by 2 feet, and my wingtip >will be a hoerner wingtip instead of the fiberglass one. Horner >wingtips are used on a huge number of General aviation airplanes >with great success, the information on their performance has been >well documented on countless airplanes for over 50 years. > >As I said before, EVERY major airplane in history has undergone >design changes, why should the Kolbs be any different ? You have >many improvements in your Kolb, that is not a slap in the face to >Homer Kolb, it is progress, and I think Homer approved of them. The >737, the most popular airliner in history now has new wingtips, do >you think the original design team from the early 1960's needs to " >Defend " themselves ? I bet those now very old guys take a lot of >pride in the fact that the 737 has been in production for over 40 >years, and I doubt they are in any way offended by the new wingtips >the 737 now has standard. Yet you imply that Homer would be >offended because some have found a way to improve his airplane, I >think you are just wrong about this. I think Homer would be very >happy to see his airplane continue to be improved, so that his >design can be compete in the marketplace and be produced for a long >time to come. There are a lot of new and really good aircraf! > t designs out there, Kolb needs to continue to develop and improve > to keep this design competitive. > >As always I am not telling you that you should change your airplane >in any way, so no need to even go there. But what I am saying is >that myself and others have nicer flying Kolbs with properly >designed and better performing wingtips. > >Mike > >-------- >"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as >you could have !!! > >Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259390#259390 > > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >08/24/09 06:05:00 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:44 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips From: "planecrazzzy" When Steve Wittman came up with the Wing tips they use now... Here's how he found out it was better than what he had... He changed "ONE" wing tip..... Found that he needed rudder while flying because his new wing tip went thru the air with less drag... I don't know if he had to compensate for lift.... But that would have also told him something... Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" the Flying Dog -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259402#259402 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lift_struts_finished_wing_tips_15_in_dihedral_131.jpg ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:11 PM PST US From: "Jim Kmet" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips Rick Girard, > > In the first line of your post, you start by doing your best to imply to > readers that no good information will come of this wingtip discussion... > " much heat and little light "... Why are you afraid of a little factual > discussion about wingtips ??? Mr. Jetpilot, Where are these "Facts" that support your statement that the Plans built Kolb wingtips are inferior?? Jim Kmet Cookeville, TN MK-3C (Never Piloted a Jet) ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 8:07 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips > > > aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> John, Despite the fact that this will surely cause much heat but little >> light, the truth of the matter is that we can never really know. >> >> How would you go about telling anything about the aircraft performance of >> the three aircraft and isolate the wing tip as contributing what? You >> can't >> >> Rick Girard >> >> > > > Rick Girard, > > In the first line of your post, you start by doing your best to imply to > readers that no good information will come of this wingtip discussion... > " much heat and little light "... Why are you afraid of a little factual > discussion about wingtips ??? The fact that you start out by trying to > distract people away from intelligent discussion on this subject tells me > that you have no interest in helping anyone here improve their Kolbs. > > Your next statements are just plain wrong. There has been much research > done on wingtips and what they will do for airplanes of different classes. > Many aircraft designers design airplanes with efficient wingtips with good > aerodynamic characteristics on GA, LSA, and many airplanes in our class > airplanes because it is already known what advantages certain wingtip > designs offer. Contrary to your assertions, we do know what many wingtip > designs have to offer and what improvements we can expect from them. > Its to bad that you feel the need to try to mislead people, dismiss > accepted aerodynamic theory, and prevent a discussion that could help them > improve their Kolbs. > > The fact that you don't know much about wingtips is fine with me, thats > why many people read this forum, to learn about Kolbs. Not everyone can > knowledgeable about airplanes and aerodynamics and I do not expect it. > What I do take offense to is when people like you post information that is > just plain wrong and is a disservice to people here on the list. There > is a lot to be learned by discussing Kolbs wingtips, and improvements the > Kolb factory, and others are doing to make them better.... Why are you > doing your best to mislead people and prevent this discussion ? > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259394#259394 > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:07 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar questions A friend who's not on this list (yet) just acquired an older (1996) FSII from an older gentleman who's decided it's time to hang up his wings. It's pretty rough, though the previous owner was flying it as recently as last year. Enough things wrong that I declined to fly it, though I did a few fast taxis on the runway. LOTS of play in the ailerons, loose tail wires (which another Kolb owner said was normal?!!), hardware hairpin cotter pins instead of the AN safety pins in many of the clevis pins, and oversized holes in the front wing attach points and wing strut ends, etc. It needs a thorough going over, but he/I have a couple of questions: With the oversized holes in the wing attach points and the aileron horns, is it OK to weld the holes over and redrill them? Or better to weld a washer over the hole? Are these heat treated, or is it OK to just weld and then stress relieve? My friend's a pretty good welder, but only with MIG, not a torch. One of the wing points seems to have been drilled oversize, and the next size larger clevis pin installed... which is still loose in the hole, and the hole in the fuselage attach point is too close (perhaps 3/32") from the lower edge of the bracket. Currently there is no back seat, which is easy to add, but do any FSII's have dual controls? Or did the factory offer it as an option? I know anything _can_ be done, but it's easier if it's already a standard mod. The new owner is not (yet) a pilot, and he'd like to learn in his own airplane. He has the build manual but no drawings... did drawings come with the original kit? -Dana -- I love my country, but I fear my government. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips From: Richard Girard Mike, Your response, typically, is the heat I spoke of. You missed the point entirely and started your usual ad hominem attack. Time for Mr. Delete Key. Rick Girard do not archive On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:07 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > > aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > John, Despite the fact that this will surely cause much heat but little > light, the truth of the matter is that we can never really know. > > > > How would you go about telling anything about the aircraft performance of > the three aircraft and isolate the wing tip as contributing what? You can't > > > > Rick Girard > > > > > > > Rick Girard, > > In the first line of your post, you start by doing your best to imply to > readers that no good information will come of this wingtip discussion... " > much heat and little light "... Why are you afraid of a little factual > discussion about wingtips ??? The fact that you start out by trying to > distract people away from intelligent discussion on this subject tells me > that you have no interest in helping anyone here improve their Kolbs. > > Your next statements are just plain wrong. There has been much research > done on wingtips and what they will do for airplanes of different classes. > Many aircraft designers design airplanes with efficient wingtips with good > aerodynamic characteristics on GA, LSA, and many airplanes in our class > airplanes because it is already known what advantages certain wingtip > designs offer. Contrary to your assertions, we do know what many wingtip > designs have to offer and what improvements we can expect from them. Its > to bad that you feel the need to try to mislead people, dismiss accepted > aerodynamic theory, and prevent a discussion that could help them improve > their Kolbs. > > The fact that you don't know much about wingtips is fine with me, thats why > many people read this forum, to learn about Kolbs. Not everyone can > knowledgeable about airplanes and aerodynamics and I do not expect it. > What I do take offense to is when people like you post information that is > just plain wrong and is a disservice to people here on the list. There is > a lot to be learned by discussing Kolbs wingtips, and improvements the Kolb > factory, and others are doing to make them better.... Why are you doing > your best to mislead people and prevent this discussion ? > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have > !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259394#259394 > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:56 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips From: "Richard Pike" Wingtips and induced drag in low altitude, light aircraft. http://www.freewebtown.com/salil/Drag/Page8.html Based on this, when I rebuild Ed's FSII, I think I will go with whatever is structurally easiest, lightest, and uses whatever we have on hand. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259408#259408 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:56 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips > Wingtips and induced drag in low altitude, light aircraft. > http://www.freewebtown.com/salil/Drag/Page8.html > > Based on this, when I rebuild Ed's FSII, I think I will go with whatever > is structurally easiest, lightest, and uses whatever we have on hand. > > Richard Pike Richard P: Enjoyed reading the referenced page. I mentioned Homer's wing stalling at the root first, in a msg to the List the other day. Didn't provoke any response, yea or nay. This is a good illustration of progression of different style wings. Homer's wing would be wing B. This is the reason we have such gentle stall characteristics, if we don't screw with Homer's design. Also why we can still maintain roll control right through the stall, because the ailerons are still working. john h mkIII "The other problem with elliptical wings is the stall characteristics. It is much safer to design an airplane so that the wing stalls first at the root, leaving the outer portion of the wing, (where the ailerons are) still flying. An elliptical wing however, will tend to stall uniformly all along the span (see the diagram below.) The "fix" for this situation is washout, but that will reduce the theoretical gains in induced drag. Therefore, we are unlikely to see a great resurgence in the use of elliptical wings, except in situations where appearance dictates." ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:00 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Wingtips The other problem with elliptical wings is the stall characteristics. It is much safer to design an airplane so that the wing stalls first at the root, leaving the outer portion of the wing, (where the ailerons are) still flying. An elliptical wing however, will tend to stall uniformly all along the span (see the diagram below.) The "fix" for this situation is washout, but that will reduce the theoretical gains in induced drag. Therefore, we are unlikely to see a great resurgence in the use of elliptical wings, except in situations where appearance dictates. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:28 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Fw: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips The illustration is in the attached file. I didn't notice it when the msg came through first time. john h mkIII ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips > > > Wingtips and induced drag in low altitude, light aircraft. >> http://www.freewebtown.com/salil/Drag/Page8.html >> >> Based on this, when I rebuild Ed's FSII, I think I will go with whatever >> is structurally easiest, lightest, and uses whatever we have on hand. >> >> Richard Pike > > > Richard P: > > Enjoyed reading the referenced page. > > I mentioned Homer's wing stalling at the root first, in a msg to the List > the other day. Didn't provoke any response, yea or nay. > > This is a good illustration of progression of different style wings. > > Homer's wing would be wing B. This is the reason we have such gentle > stall > characteristics, if we don't screw with Homer's design. Also why we can > still maintain roll control right through the stall, because the ailerons > are still working. > > john h > mkIII > > > "The other problem with elliptical wings is the stall characteristics. It > is > much safer to design an airplane so that the wing stalls first at the > root, > leaving the outer portion of the wing, (where the ailerons are) still > flying. An elliptical wing however, will tend to stall uniformly all along > the span (see the diagram below.) The "fix" for this situation is washout, > but that will reduce the theoretical gains in induced drag. Therefore, we > are unlikely to see a great resurgence in the use of elliptical wings, > except in situations where appearance dictates." > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:09 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wingtips Ya all. Nope, Homer did not get anything "wrong" with the wing tips on his designs. His objective was not to have the absolute best, most efficient wing tip possible, but to have a good one that was quite simple and easy for amateur home builders to get built right and still give excellent performance. The addition of preformed factory furnished wing tips to his kits would have added significantly to the cost of his kits. Homer wanted to be as frugal with our money, as he was with his own, and he succeeded in giving us a GREAT bank for the buck. Thank you Homer ,,,,,,,, may you rest in peace. Gene Z PS Do I encourage new builders to modify kolb's wing tip to the hoerner style? Nope, I DO NOT. It is more difficult to get it right than it looks. On Aug 24, 2009, at 6:25 PM, John Hauck wrote: > This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with wingtips > that, "are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in > the design of the plane." > > How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction? > > I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably > would disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself. In > fact, doesn't surprise me at all, but I would like an explanation on > why Homer Kolb's wingtip is so very poor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.