Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:24 AM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (loseyf@comcast.net)
2. 04:48 AM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (Mike Welch)
3. 04:51 AM - Re: always do your pre-flight! (william sullivan)
4. 05:05 AM - Re: always do your preflight! (John Hauck)
5. 05:06 AM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (John Hauck)
6. 05:32 AM - Re: always do your preflight! (Jimmy Young)
7. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: always do your pre-flight! (loseyf@comcast.net)
8. 05:40 AM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (loseyf@comcast.net)
9. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (Dennis Souder)
10. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (robert bean)
11. 06:55 AM - Re: Transporting a Kolb (Tom O'Hara)
12. 07:17 AM - Re: Transporting a Kolb (George Alexander)
13. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
14. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Wingtips (pj.ladd)
15. 08:23 AM - Re: always do your preflight! (Arksey@aol.com)
16. 08:24 AM - Re:Wingtips (william sullivan)
17. 08:39 AM - Re: Wingtips (JetPilot)
18. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: Wingtips (pj.ladd)
19. 08:58 AM - Re: always do your preflight! (JetPilot)
20. 09:08 AM - Re: powered and unpowered weights (JetPilot)
21. 09:46 AM - Wing Tip Failure? (Jack B. Hart)
22. 10:44 AM - Tail wheel weight of Mk IIIC (Richard Girard)
23. 11:16 AM - Re: Re:Wingtips (Sky Biker Richarson)
24. 12:10 PM - Re: always do your preflight! (Jimmy Young)
25. 12:43 PM - Re: Wing Tip Failure? (JetPilot)
26. 12:59 PM - Re: powered and unpowered weights (JetPilot)
27. 01:54 PM - Re: Wing Tip Failure? (Jimmy Young)
28. 01:54 PM - Re: Update on Verner 1400 (Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL)
29. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Failure? (Jack B. Hart)
30. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Failure? (chris davis)
31. 03:19 PM - Re: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs (chris davis)
32. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: Update on Verner 1400 (Steve Simmons)
33. 05:54 PM - Another video... (ces308)
34. 06:27 PM - Re: always do your preflight! (albertakolbmk3)
35. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Failure? (chris davis)
36. 07:19 PM - Re: Another video... (robert bean)
37. 07:24 PM - Kolb gph fuel burn survey (Eugene Zimmerman)
38. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: always do your preflight! (Dennis Souder)
39. 08:07 PM - Breakfast at KPNC (Richard Girard)
40. 08:32 PM - Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey (Richard Pike)
41. 08:37 PM - Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
42. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey (Dennis Souder)
43. 08:55 PM - A sure fire way to increase Mk IIIC performance (Richard Girard)
44. 09:14 PM - Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Has anyone else experienced this?
Do you have a photo of where the failure occurred? I am in process of building,
info as you supplied sure tells me to beef up the tangs if this is not an isolated
case.
Thanks for sharing this!
------Original Message------
From: Chris Ambrose
Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Aug 30, 2009 8:11 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: always do your preflight!
Hi Guys and Gals,
This is what this list is about...keeping everyone safe . Thanks Jimmy!
chris ambrose
m3x/jab/
N327CS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260537#260537
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Fran=2C
Did you miss Jimmy's photo link=2C in his original post=2C at the bottom
of his email?? It has a photo of his broken tang. Scary stuff=2C BTW!!!
Mike Welch
MkIII
>
> Has anyone else experienced this?
>
> Do you have a photo of where the failure occurred? I am in process of bui
lding=2C info as you supplied sure tells me to beef up the tangs if this is
not an isolated case.
>
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos.
http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery
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Subject: | Re: always do your pre-flight! |
- If you look back at the original message (or some of the responces) loo
k down at the bottom of the message and you will see an attachment.- Clic
k on it, and you will see the photo of the tang.
-
do not archive
-------------------------
-------------------------
---- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
-------------------------
---- Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
-------------------------
----- FS 447
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
> It looks like the clevis end of the turnbuckle may have been pressing on
> the
> tang as there appears to be an indented marking on the tang matching the
> curvature of the clevis end.
>
> The tang is designed to replace a turnbuckle and consequently most Kolbs
> would not have the turnbuckle. So this is probably a relatively rare
> set-up
> and possibly the turnbuckle and tail folding had something to do with it?
>
> Dennis
Dennis/Gang:
You may have something there. Would be easy to side load the tang with the
turnbuckle (turnbarrel for BB) during tail folding and handling.
I use four turnbuckles on my mkIII tail wires. Normally, I do not fold, but
if I do, all the wires come off the tail section first.
Looking at the photo, looks like there may be some scoring/scratching by
wrench or socket around the high temp lock nut in the area of the break.
Doesn't look like there is a washer under the nut either.
If the tail wires were loose in flight, would induce a lot of vibration to
the SS tang.
Another thought from my foggy old mind, the further the bend from the
attaching bolt, the more side load at the bolt. When I make up my tail wire
tangs, I bend them at the edge of the washer under the nut or bolt head to
reduce possibility of side load.
My thoughts prior to my first cup of coffee this morning, as I contemplate
finishing loading and heading to the Rock House, this morning, to harass
Larry Cottrell for a few weeks, along with the jack rabbits, coyotes, and
antelope.
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
>
> Has anyone else experienced this?
>
> Do you have a photo of where the failure occurred? I am in process of
> building, info as you supplied sure tells me to beef up the tangs if this
> is not an isolated case.
Fran/Gang:
The url for the photo is at the bottom of Jimmy Y's msg.
This is the first failure of these particular SS tangs that I have knowledge
of. I believe it is an isolated case.
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
I agree it looks like a combination of the bend being too close to the holes and
the weakness caused by the holes being close together that helped get the failure
going.
To Dennis' reply, I have not to my knowledge ever folded up the tail causing the
turnbarrel to leverage some tension on the tang, but it could have happened
with a previous owner. I think the main thing to learn is, regardless of what
caused it, the crack developed at the weakest point of the tang where the holes
are all close together.
I'm going to locate some SS single hole tangs and wil be replacing the entire tail
wire assembly.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260597#260597
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Subject: | Re: always do your pre-flight! |
R290IGl0IHRoYW5rIHlvdS4gIEkgc2F3IGEgcmVzcG9uc2UgZmlyc3QsIGl0IHdhcyBub3QgYXR0
YWNoZWQsIHRoZW4gc2F3IGl0IGluIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbC4NClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9u
IFdpcmVsZXNzIEJsYWNrQmVycnkNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206
IHdpbGxpYW0gc3VsbGl2YW4gPHdpbGxpYW10c3VsbGl2YW5AYXR0Lm5ldD4NCg0KRGF0ZTogTW9u
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aWxsIHNlZSB0aGUgcGhvdG8gb2YgdGhlIHRhbmcuDQqgDQpkbyBub3QgYXJjaGl2ZQ0KoKCgoKCg
oKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgIEJpbGwgU3Vs
bGl2YW4NCqCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCg
oKCgoCBXaW5kc29yIExvY2tzLCBDdC4NCqCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCg
oKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKAgRlMgNDQ3DQo
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Thanks John, safe journey!
------Original Message------
From: John Hauck
Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Aug 31, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: always do your preflight!
>
> Has anyone else experienced this?
>
> Do you have a photo of where the failure occurred? I am in process of
> building, info as you supplied sure tells me to beef up the tangs if this
> is not an isolated case.
Fran/Gang:
The url for the photo is at the bottom of Jimmy Y's msg.
This is the first failure of these particular SS tangs that I have knowledge
of. I believe it is an isolated case.
john h
mkIII
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Jimmy and others with turnbuckles (or barrels),
John mentioned that he was not aware of any such tang failure previously and
I have none either, these are not just used on Kolb, they are extensively in
all sorts of ultralight aircraft. So, logic would seem to indicate that the
that the presence of the turnbuckle is probably related to the failure in
some way.
The tang, I feel certain, is quite strong enough for its intended tensions
loading. So all this to say, make sure you don't replicate a scenario that
would not eliminate the real problem. Any tang will fail if flexed sideways
a sufficient number of times.
I would not put the turnbuckle on the top wires for several reasons:
(A) These are the wires that will get you home when all else would fail. The
bottoms are really along for the ride - the tops carry the downward force on
the horizontal stabilizers. If the top wire support fails, you probably
will not make it home. So keep the failure modes for the top wires as few
as possible. The turnbuckle itself represents several failure modes: (1)
whatever happened to yours (2) the turnbuckle could fail itself (3) there is
an additional connection points/links to come apart(4) the safety wire could
fail if incorrectly done or forgotten (5) the turnbuckle could be
incorrectly assembled with too few threads inserted. These are all
potential failure modes - most not likely - but how likely was your tang
failure when none has failed before?
(B) The upper wires are the longest and therefore subject to the most
in-flight vibration and movement in general and adding mass to these will
likely increase any in-flight vibrations, etc.
I can understand why someone would want them: its more traditional and it
makes adjustment easier. But given all the additional failure modes (and
things to check on preflight). I would not have the turnbuckles on my
airplane.
If you do include turnbuckles and fold your tail, you should consider,
having wire on both sides of the turnbuckle to eliminate any potential
binding, or (remove the bolts thru the stabilizer(s). If you remove the
bolt(s), putting it back may be a challenge - if you fold regularly you
probably don't want to do it this way.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jimmy Young
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:32 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: always do your preflight!
I agree it looks like a combination of the bend being too close to the holes
and the weakness caused by the holes being close together that helped get
the failure going.
To Dennis' reply, I have not to my knowledge ever folded up the tail causing
the turnbarrel to leverage some tension on the tang, but it could have
happened with a previous owner. I think the main thing to learn is,
regardless of what caused it, the crack developed at the weakest point of
the tang where the holes are all close together.
I'm going to locate some SS single hole tangs and wil be replacing the
entire tail wire assembly.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260597#260597
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Thanks Dennis. Good points to consider. In addition we may want to
look at
the dinky little bolts that do the pass-through. The threads would
be the weak area. -both on the nut and the bolt.
Because of the angle they are in both tension and shear.
The loads on these wires are not great. Vibration and work-hardening
with hours of run time would be the real culprit.
BB
On 31, Aug 2009, at 9:19 AM, Dennis Souder wrote:
>
> Jimmy and others with turnbuckles (or barrels),
>
> John mentioned that he was not aware of any such tang failure
> previously and
> I have none either, these are not just used on Kolb, they are
> extensively in
> all sorts of ultralight aircraft. So, logic would seem to indicate
> that the
> that the presence of the turnbuckle is probably related to the
> failure in
> some way.
>
> The tang, I feel certain, is quite strong enough for its intended
> tensions
> loading. So all this to say, make sure you don't replicate a
> scenario that
> would not eliminate the real problem. Any tang will fail if flexed
> sideways
> a sufficient number of times.
>
> I would not put the turnbuckle on the top wires for several reasons:
>
> (A) These are the wires that will get you home when all else would
> fail. The
> bottoms are really along for the ride - the tops carry the downward
> force on
> the horizontal stabilizers. If the top wire support fails, you
> probably
> will not make it home. So keep the failure modes for the top wires
> as few
> as possible. The turnbuckle itself represents several failure
> modes: (1)
> whatever happened to yours (2) the turnbuckle could fail itself (3)
> there is
> an additional connection points/links to come apart(4) the safety
> wire could
> fail if incorrectly done or forgotten (5) the turnbuckle could be
> incorrectly assembled with too few threads inserted. These are all
> potential failure modes - most not likely - but how likely was your
> tang
> failure when none has failed before?
>
> (B) The upper wires are the longest and therefore subject to the most
> in-flight vibration and movement in general and adding mass to
> these will
> likely increase any in-flight vibrations, etc.
>
> I can understand why someone would want them: its more traditional
> and it
> makes adjustment easier. But given all the additional failure
> modes (and
> things to check on preflight). I would not have the turnbuckles on my
> airplane.
>
> If you do include turnbuckles and fold your tail, you should consider,
> having wire on both sides of the turnbuckle to eliminate any potential
> binding, or (remove the bolts thru the stabilizer(s). If you
> remove the
> bolt(s), putting it back may be a challenge - if you fold regularly
> you
> probably don't want to do it this way.
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jimmy Young
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:32 AM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: always do your preflight!
>
>
> I agree it looks like a combination of the bend being too close to
> the holes
> and the weakness caused by the holes being close together that
> helped get
> the failure going.
>
> To Dennis' reply, I have not to my knowledge ever folded up the
> tail causing
> the turnbarrel to leverage some tension on the tang, but it could have
> happened with a previous owner. I think the main thing to learn is,
> regardless of what caused it, the crack developed at the weakest
> point of
> the tang where the holes are all close together.
>
> I'm going to locate some SS single hole tangs and wil be replacing the
> entire tail wire assembly.
>
> --------
> Jimmy Young
> FS II, HKS 700
> N7043P
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260597#260597
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Transporting a Kolb |
I sent some pics to you this morning. They have already been posted here a couple
of years ago.
Tom
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260607#260607
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Subject: | Re: Transporting a Kolb |
timwarlick(at)mchsi.com wrote:
> All,
>
> Found out that I "may" be moving from Mobile, AL to Tucson, AZ.
>
> For those who have transported their Kolbs, should I let the movers try to
move it in the moving van or should I rent a 26 foot U-Haul truck and drive it
the 23 hours?
>
> Either way, with the wings folded it is pretty compact. What precautions do
I need to take?
>
> Tim Warlick
> Kolb Mark 3 Classic
> BMW R100 powered
>
Tim:
If you haven't already, you may want to check my web site (link below in signature
tag). There are a wide variety of techniques used for transporting a Kolb.
(About 16 setups.)
Go to the web site and click on "Trailering a Kolb".
Whatever method you use, the two points that seem to be consistent are to: get
the tail wheel off the floor by supporting the tail boom and support the wings
independent of the tail boom.
My $.02 worth.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260610#260610
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Jimmy / All
The turnbuckles add mass to those wires so that if there is any in-flight
vibrations or side loading it would compound the issue. Add to that the V
twin engine that was bolted solid to your engine mount would have added to
the issue by transmitting engine vibrations.
I would suggest you give your plane a very close going over to check for
other vibration related metal fatigue.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:31 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: always do your preflight!
>
> I agree it looks like a combination of the bend being too close to the
> holes and the weakness caused by the holes being close together that
> helped get the failure going.
>
> To Dennis' reply, I have not to my knowledge ever folded up the tail
> causing the turnbarrel to leverage some tension on the tang, but it could
> have happened with a previous owner. I think the main thing to learn is,
> regardless of what caused it, the crack developed at the weakest point of
> the tang where the holes are all close together.
>
> I'm going to locate some SS single hole tangs and wil be replacing the
> entire tail wire assembly.
>
> --------
> Jimmy Young
> FS II, HKS 700
> N7043P
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260597#260597
>
>
>
Message 14
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|
Please point me to where i can find more info about these planes. The only
one's i know of with the names Spitfire, Hurricane, and ME 109 were designed
well over 60 years ago. :-)
Our understanding of aerodynamics has changed substantially in the last 10
years, let alone 60+.>>
Hi,
You are quite right , they all came into service around 1935/7. In the
Battle of Britain the Hawker Hurricane shot down more German planes than the
Supermarine Spitfire although the Spit is the icon of the time.
The Spitfire was often deployed against the fighter escort as its top speed
was 355 at 19000ft with a ceiling of 34000ft against the Hurricane 316mph at
17500ft ceiling of 32000ft while the Hurricane attacked the bombers.
Their armament was the same. 8/303 mg.
The Me bf109E did 355mph at 18000ft with a ceiling of 35000ft and had
2/7.9mm cannons and 2/20mmcannons
The Spitfire evolved through 24 developments beforer produiction ended in
`47 finally achieving 454mph at26000ft with a ceiling of around 44000ft plus
the Seafire for the Navy and the Spiteful.
I was wrong when I said in reply to another post that the clip wing version
was introduced as dog fighting moved higher. In fact it was the reverse. In
`43 the Clip wing was developed when a low level variant was made to carry
2/.250lb or 1/500lb bomb.
The Hurricane did not produce so many variants but the Hurri-bomber was
quite succesful.
No doubt aerodynamics have progressed since then but my point was that three
top designers building similar planes to do the same job at the same time
all produced different wingtips so the differences could not have been that
great. I am sure that the designers of the Sopwiths and Neuports and
Fokkers of the previous war didn`t know anything about the aerodynamics of
wingtips but Mitchell, Camm etc certainly did.
In fact I dont think that the aerodynamics of fighter wings have much
bearing on the aerodynamics of wings at the sort of speeds we fly. We would
be better off studying the design of the sails of high speed sailing boats
which approximate much more closely the behaviour of air round our wings.
I bet you are glad you asked.
Pat
Message 15
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Subject: | RE: always do your preflight! |
Thanks Dennis for your input...makes sense to me and makes me feel a lot
better....jswan
Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Jimmy and others with turnbuckles (or barrels),
John mentioned that he was not aware of any such tang failure previously
and
I have none either, these are not just used on Kolb, they are extensively
in
all sorts of ultralight aircraft. So, logic would seem to indicate that
the
that the presence of the turnbuckle is probably related to the failure in
some way.
The tang, I feel certain, is quite strong enough for its intended tensions
loading. So all this to say, make sure you don't replicate a scenario that
would not eliminate the real problem. Any tang will fail if flexed
sideways
a sufficient number of times.
JIM SWAN
firestar ll, 503, N663S
Eaton Rapids, Mi. 48827
PH 517-663-8488 runway 2300' E & W (42-28.58N 084-44.69 W )
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
=JulystepsfooterNO115)
Message 16
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|
- Pat: With all due respect to the old fighters, you might want to look a
t the Wikipedia entry for the A-10 Warthog.- The wing description is very
similar to a Kolb, and the photos show a wingtip that looks like the ones
John H. tested at the factory.- Very informative reading.
-
do not archive
-
-------------------------
---------------------- Bill Sul
livan
-------------------------
---------------------- Windsor
Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
---------------------- FS 447 w
ithout the Gatling in the belly
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:
> Isn`t it surprising in view of all the furore aboout the superiority of one
> wing tip over another that three top designers designed three different
> planes, with different wing tips to do the same job.
>
> Spitfire Elliptical
> Hurricane. Round
> Me 109 Square
>
> Maybe is isn`t that important after all.
>
> Pat
Pat,
Given your method of looking at what has been designed to determine if wingtips
are important or not, you very selectively cite 3 fighter aircraft designed almost
70 years ago. Your logic of looking at other aircraft is good, but you
should be looking at modern aircraft that are more similar in performance to
our Kolbs. A huge number of general aviation and Light Sport Aircraft have been
designed with modern technology, and the vast majorty have gone to the trouble
to put aerodynamically designed wingtips on them. Even though aerodynamic
wingtips add cost and make production more difficult, they still do it. This
is done for a very good reason...
The Kolb Factory even saw the importance of wingtips and put a new wingtip on the
MK III Xtra. The current design Kolb wingtip sucks, they are prone to breaking
over time when built to plans, and are aerodynamically a waste. The current
Kolb wingtips may be easy to build, but I would rather spend a little more
time building a good wingtip that made my plane fly and perform better than
just wasting 3 feet of my available wing area on nothing.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260628#260628
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The design end goal sets the definition of efficiency. If you
want to climb faster, you an add wing and/or increase engine power. >>
Hi Jack,
well ! Mitchell certainly didn`t design the Spitfire wing for ease of
production.
Pat
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
I posted a warning about this here on the Kolb List last year. These tangs have
a history of cracking like this. Rans even posted an AD on this same type
tang last year for their aircraft. Rans speculated that this can happen due
to incorrect bending, and over tightening of the tail wires. Rans said these
tangs shoud be inspected with a 10 X magnifying glass, which I do regularly.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=42213
Attached to this post is a copy of the Rans AD on these tangs.
Rans aircraft have two sets of tail wires, Kolbs only have one set. If one tail
wire were to fail on a Kolb, the airplane would tumble. Given the AD, and close
calls like this one, I recently did the work to install a second set of
tail wires on my Kolb MK III.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260634#260634
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tangtailransad_663.pdf
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Subject: | Re: powered and unpowered weights |
[quote="Masqqqqqqq(at)aol.com"]Here's an odd question:
Just say somebody built an ultralight that was powered by a propeller turned
by bicycle pedals. There is no engine. Would this machine need to make
the weight of a powered ultralight, 254 pounds, or an unpowered glider, 155 pounds.
?
> [b]
Kind of a dumb question, because if you build a pedal powered " Ultralight " that
is anywhere near 254 pounds, it would never fly using only human power...
Its been done before, and the planes have been under 100 pounds to be able to fly
with the power of an olympic class bicycle rider.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260639#260639
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Subject: | Wing Tip Failure? |
At 08:38 AM 8/31/09 -0700, you wrote:
...........................
>The Kolb Factory even saw the importance of wingtips and put a new wingtip
on the MK III Xtra. The current design Kolb wingtip sucks, they are prone
to breaking over time when built to plans, and are aerodynamically a waste.
>
..........................
Kolbers,
Just wondered, has anyone ever had a wing tip fail from normal flight
conditions, as opposed to striking the ground, etc?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Subject: | Tail wheel weight of Mk IIIC |
About 1lb. 9oz. alone, 74lb. if you add the rest of the plane and put it in
W & B position.
Rick Girard
do not archive
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I had been watching to get more information on wing tips for the Mk 111c bu
t the bickering just got to be to much.
I had put drooped win tips on my Challenger 11 CWS and it made a world of d
ifferance and have been thinking about installing them on the Mk 111 also.
After reading a little between the in fighting I am looking at other oppion
s also plus easer to build and install. Where can I find more information o
n the different wing tips and results and comments of the types?
Ross R
SW Florida
Mk 111c/912
From: williamtsullivan@att.net
Subject: Kolb-List: Re:Wingtips
Pat: With all due respect to the old fighters=2C you might want to look a
t the Wikipedia entry for the A-10 Warthog. The wing description is very s
imilar to a Kolb=2C and the photos show a wingtip that looks like the ones
John H. tested at the factory. Very informative reading.
do not archive
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks=2C Ct.
FS 447 without the Gatling
in the belly
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Rick Neilsen wrote:
>Add to that the V
twin engine that was bolted solid to your engine mount would have added to
the issue by transmitting engine vibrations.
I would suggest you give your plane a very close going over to check for
other vibration related metal fatigue. <
Rick,
Will do, thanks for the advice.
I did more "metal fatigue" to my Kolb last year when I pancake-landed it and ripped
the left gearleg socket clean off, due to my lack-of-piloting skills. It
could be the tang got jerked down pretty hard on that incident, starting a crack.
I think that's what some call Kolb-quit, when you stall the plane and you
haven't landed yet.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260661#260661
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Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Failure? |
There are plenty of reports here on the list of wingtips breaking. Not a catastrophic
failure, but parts of them fatiguing and some of the thin supporting tubes
breaking over time. The structure was probably more suited to the Firefly,
and the ultrastar. Built stock, its definitely too weak a design for a MK
III.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260671#260671
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Subject: | Re: powered and unpowered weights |
Masqqqqqqq(at)aol.com,
Condor weighed in at 70 pounds... Human powered is not a glider, it is using power
to fly as opposed to updrafts, or being towed or launched off a hill, so
I would not try to impose glider rules.
Forgive my initial response, we are trying to create nice and kinder list here
:) The question does not make much sense to me, as chances of a human powered
ultralight ever flying at more than 155 pounds is very close to zero. Remember,
a plane actually has to get into the air to worry about FAA rules, and hovercraft
and similar ground effect craft do not count !!
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260672#260672
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Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Failure? |
>>There are plenty of reports here on the list of wingtips breaking.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260674#260674
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Subject: | Re: Update on Verner 1400 |
<< I have taken my VN 1400, to Central FLORDIA Flyers and have met
Steve the
owner and as far as I can see he and his operation is first class, ...
propeller damper was remanufactured with a harder rubber and that
stopped the vibration. Steve Simmons >>
Hi, Steve -
Glad to hear the Verner factory has addressed the vibration problem in
their (your) VM-1400.
Unfortunately for me, that fix came too late. When I was having
harmonic vibration problems on my Mark-III with the Verner-1400 (2004),
Steve Flynn could not offer me a solution. And although I agree with
you that Steve is a first-class guy who was genuinely trying to help, he
could not help his customers if the factory in the Czech Republic did
not have any answers. I had no choice but to abandon continued use of
that engine for my Kolb.
Thanks for the update, and I wish you all success in getting your
Verner-powered bird in the air!
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, Rotax-912ul, in
Cedar Crest, NM
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Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Failure? |
At 12:42 PM 8/31/09 -0700, you wrote:
>
>There are plenty of reports here on the list of wingtips breaking. Not a
catastrophic failure, but parts of them fatiguing and some of the thin
supporting tubes breaking over time. The structure was probably more suited
to the Firefly, and the ultrastar. Built stock, its definitely too weak a
design for a MK III.
>
Mike,
I searched the archives using the following word combinations:
damaged wingtip
damaged wing tip
wingtip failure
wing tip failure
broken wingtip
broken wing tip
broken brace
The last two items produced hits. "Broken wing tip" produced two hits but
they did not relate to a specific instance of a failure. "Broken brace"
produced one hit where a failure was discovered after the wing tip had been
run into a fence.
May be I am using the wrong word combinations.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Failure? |
Been on this list since 1995 and cant remember any but I have a little memo
ry loss due to my brain bleed after the crash.- Chris=0A-Chris Davis=0A
KXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly =0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jimmy Young <jdy100@co
mcast.net>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:
52:03 PM=0ASubject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Failure?=0A=0A--> Kolb-List mes
sage posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100@comcast.net>=0A=0A>>There are plenty
of reports here on the list of wingtips breaking.=0A=0A--------=0AJimmy You
ng=0AFS II, HKS 700=0AN7043P=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A
=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260674#260674=0A=0A=0A=0A
=================0A=0A=0A
Message 31
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Subject: | Re: Cockpit controlled trim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs |
Mahesh, I found that Rans trim I email you about you can see it at=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2- http://www.shoprans.com/ElevatorTrim.asp=C2-good luck .m
glad you asked as I will order on for the Firefly I am building!=C2- Chri
s=0A=C2-Chris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisabled from cras
h building Firefly =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom:
Mahesh Iyer <miyer2u@yahoo.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wedne
sday, August 19, 2009 1:02:32 PM=0ASubject: Kolb-List: Cockpit controlled t
rim for Firestar-2 - Request Inputs=0A=0A=0ADear Fellow Kolbers, =0AI am wr
iting to this list for the first time and wanted to thank you all for the i
mmense knowledge that you share! =0A=C2- =0AI fly a Kolb Firestar-2 out o
f Ashland in Oregon and am enjoying it. I wanted some expert advice on buil
ding a cockpit controlled trim for my Firestar-2. =0A=C2- =0ACan any of y
ou guide me with some good designs that I could use as a starting point to
build? After flying the Cessna=99s for quite some time, I am pampered
by the use of the trim wheel and want to build something close to it for m
y Firestar-2. =0A=C2- =0AOnce again, thanks much for your contributions!
=0A=C2- =0AMahesh Iyer =0AN194 DS, Phoenix , Oregon =0AKolb Firestar 2
=93 Powered by a Rotax 503 DCDI, driven by a three blade IVO prop =0A
The joy of Flight Nothing comes closer, it=99s a ro
========================0A=0A
=0A
Message 32
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Subject: | Re: Update on Verner 1400 |
Thanks Dennis I will get it flying by the end of October hopefully.
Steve
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kirby, Dennis CTR
USAF AFMC MDA/AL
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 4:20 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Update on Verner 1400
<
< I have taken my VN 1400, to Central FLORDIA Flyers and have met Steve the
owner and as far as I can see he and his operation is first class, .
propeller damper was remanufactured with a harder rubber and that stopped
the vibration. Steve Simmons >>
Hi, Steve -
Glad to hear the Verner factory has addressed the vibration problem in their
(your) VM-1400.
Unfortunately for me, that fix came too late. When I was having harmonic
vibration problems on my Mark-III with the Verner-1400 (2004), Steve Flynn
could not offer me a solution. And although I agree with you that Steve is
a first-class guy who was genuinely trying to help, he could not help his
customers if the factory in the Czech Republic did not have any answers. I
had no choice but to abandon continued use of that engine for my Kolb.
Thanks for the update, and I wish you all success in getting your
Verner-powered bird in the air!
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, Rotax-912ul, in
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 33
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Subject: | Another video... |
Hi All....Just another view from m3x....I was curious as to what was going on in
the back of the plane....I may do this again with the windows out to get rid
of the distortion....hope you enjoy it...hey,what do you want for nothing.....rubber
biscuit ??
chris ambrose
M3X/jab 52+ hrs
N327CS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO5W0jH72C8
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260734#260734
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Dennis,
I would have to disagree with you. Any failure at all whether top or bottom WILL
be a disaster. You know the cable will stretch over time, maybe fractionally,
but it will. As everything loosens up you start to get more vibration because
you have no way to adjust the tension. Of course you need to be careful not
to over-tighten. The tangs have almost cut all the way through the cable thimble
on mine, much like the others have noted.
I'm not sure how much time john H. has put on the old tangs but if I remember correctly
he had re-done them a few times before going to the system he has now.
There is obviously a problem here.
Whether or not the turnbuckle really adds any concern is questionable.
I believe the tang is the problem or at least the way it is being used.
Tony
--------
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260736#260736
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Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Failure? |
Jack ,I dont think you missed many word combos . thank you for-the backin
g evidence. Chris=0A-Chris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisab
led from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________
____=0AFrom: Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>=0ATo: kolb-list@matroni
cs.com=0ASent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:49:34 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List:
<jbhart@onlyinternet.net>=0A=0AAt 12:42 PM 8/31/09 -0700, you wrote:=0A>--
here are plenty of reports here on the list of wingtips breaking.- Not a
=0Acatastrophic failure, but parts of them fatiguing and some of the thin
=0Asupporting tubes breaking over time.- The structure was probably more
suited =0Ato the Firefly, and the ultrastar.- Built stock, its definitely
too weak a =0Adesign for a MK III.- =0A>=0A=0AMike,=0A=0AI searched the
archives using the following word combinations:=0A=0Adamaged wingtip=0Adama
ged wing tip=0Awingtip failure=0Awing tip failure=0Abroken wingtip=0Abroken
wing tip =0Abroken brace=0A=0AThe last two items produced hits.- "Broken
wing tip" produced two hits but =0Athey did not relate to a specific insta
nce of a failure.- "Broken brace" =0Aproduced one hit where a failure was
discovered after the wing tip had been =0Arun into a fence.=0A=0AMay be I
am using the wrong word combinations.=0A=0AJack B. Hart FF004=0AWinchester,
=========================0A
===================0A=0A=0A
Message 36
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Subject: | Re: Another video... |
Chris, you can label that one "hindsight"
That was interesting to get a point of view that many don't get to
see. My neck won't turn that far. Hurts.
Time to get a rear view mirror.
In the early part of the video, after you had leveled off and still
running fairly high power there appeared to
be some oscillation of the tail. -to be expected of course, but an
affirmation of what I earlier said about the
"wiggleness" of the Kolb. I would like to see some footage in more
unstable air.
BB
On 31, Aug 2009, at 8:53 PM, ces308 wrote:
>
> Hi All....Just another view from m3x....I was curious as to what
> was going on in the back of the plane....I may do this again with
> the windows out to get rid of the distortion....hope you enjoy
> it...hey,what do you want for nothing.....rubber biscuit ??
>
> chris ambrose
> M3X/jab 52+ hrs
> N327CS
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO5W0jH72C8
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260734#260734
>
>
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Subject: | Kolb gph fuel burn survey |
All Kolbers,
I'm curious what other kolb pilots are experiencing as their gallon
per hour fuel burn?
What is your sustained level flight absolute minimum gal, per hr? At
what engine rpm? And at what cruise speed?
What is your over all "average" gal. per hr. engine rpm, and
cruise speed?
Please specify the model of your plane and engine when you share your
statistics.
Statistic from flights of 2 hours or longer will likely be more
accurate and reliable than shorter flights, but please share whatever
you personally experience with your plane.
Eugene Zimmerman
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Subject: | Re: always do your preflight! |
Tony,
... "WILL be a disaster"
Not necessarily!
When I was in Taiwan, I saw a maxair drifter lose its hs stab cables and the
hs stab was loose and flipping around. It got my attention because it
looked like an impending disaster and also because I had just flown the
drifter before this flight. We had just assembled it and I did the first
flight - then another pilot took it up. But the pilot was able to land the
airplane with careful use of the throttle.
At Oshkosh one year, I was sitting at the shore at the seaplane base
watching an ultralight amphibian flying by at 500 ft altitude or so, over
the water. The whole tail broke completely off - the composite fuselage
tube just broke apart - and it went straight in. That WAS a disaster, both
pilot and passenger will killed.
The main point I wanted to make was if one wanted to use turnbuckles, then
put them on the bottom wires - not the top wires. John uses 4 I think, but
others have done it with 2 which still provides good adjustability. Putting
them above provides additional failure points and if I had to choose which
cables to lose, I would choose to lose the lower cables. John seldom folds
his Mark-III so turnbuckles are less problematic with his flying style. To
have turnbuckles on the top wires and fold regularly - you are setting
yourself up for some potential binding problems because the turnbuckle will
get sandwiched between the vertical stab and the horiz stab and since the
tang is projecting out at an angle the turnbuckle will be held to that same
approximate angle and it WILL put pressure on the tang. With the turnbuckles
on the bottom wires, they are on the outside and much less susceptible to
being stressed.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of albertakolbmk3
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 9:27 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: always do your preflight!
Dennis,
I would have to disagree with you. Any failure at all whether top or bottom
WILL be a disaster. You know the cable will stretch over time, maybe
fractionally, but it will. As everything loosens up you start to get more
vibration because you have no way to adjust the tension. Of course you need
to be careful not to over-tighten. The tangs have almost cut all the way
through the cable thimble on mine, much like the others have noted.
I'm not sure how much time john H. has put on the old tangs but if I
remember correctly he had re-done them a few times before going to the
system he has now. There is obviously a problem here.
Whether or not the turnbuckle really adds any concern is questionable.
I believe the tang is the problem or at least the way it is being used.
Tony
--------
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260736#260736
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Subject: | Breakfast at KPNC |
My reply to Eugene's request for fuel burn info got me thinking. I don't
know how many Kolb's there are in the lower mid west, but a few of you guys
pass through on the way to Monument Valley or just out touring so I thought
I'd let you all in on one of the best deals around.On the first Saturday of
the month, between 7 and 10 am, the Ponca City Aviation Boosters club serves
breakfast at their club house at KPNC. $6 gets you eggs, bacon, sausage,
fruit, toast, pancakes, juice, milk and coffee. As high as you care to pile
your plate. If you want a can of pop or a bottle of water it's an extra 50
cents per. These folks don't haul out a few gas grills for this, their club
house has a complete professional kitchen. It is all done by volunteers, but
the quality and service is second to none. If you find yourself in that part
of the country you owe it to yourself. Around the area this is a well known
event. They serve 450 to 600 people in those three hours so get there early
and plan to stay late, the crowd is a friendly bunch.
Rick Girard
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Subject: | Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey |
MKIII, 582, 2.58:1 B box, 2 blade 68" Ivo, 4 GPH @ 5,200 rpm & 65 mph
FSII, 582, 2.58:1 B box, 2 blade 68" Ivo, 3.5 GPH @ 4,800 rpm & 62 mph
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260757#260757
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Subject: | Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey |
In a message dated 8/31/2009 10:24:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
etzimm@gmail.com writes:
What is your over all "average" gal. per hr. engine rpm, and
cruise speed?
Gene Z,
This is my average for a 1 to 2 hour flight and includes taxi, warm up,
takeoff, landing and taxi again, such as during my trips to Homers picnics:
Original style - Kolb FireStar
Rotax 447
5000 RPM = 2.0 GPH
Airspeed about 60 to 65 in smooth air (drops to 55~60 in bumpy air)
I don't know what the fuel burn is during cruise only.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
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Subject: | Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey |
Richard,
Do you have any gph figures on a slower speed cruise?
Guesses?
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:31 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey
MKIII, 582, 2.58:1 B box, 2 blade 68" Ivo, 4 GPH @ 5,200 rpm & 65 mph
FSII, 582, 2.58:1 B box, 2 blade 68" Ivo, 3.5 GPH @ 4,800 rpm & 62 mph
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260757#260757
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Subject: | A sure fire way to increase Mk IIIC performance |
When I started to redesign and simplify the systems on my Mk IIIC it was
because they were so clunky or non conforming to the plans they were just
offensive. Things like an engine mount that had long studs going through
square architectural tubing spacers with nothing to prevent the tubes from
collapsing. Running ALL the electrical cables, fuel lines and throttle
cables up the same frame post (the most aft one at that so everything went
to the back of the pod then came forward again). Electrical grounds placed
willy nilly about the plane. The full swivel tail wheel (my bad, I just had
to have it at the time) just to name a few. None of them by themselves was a
big deal, all of them taken together was a very big deal. How big. When I
looked at the previous weight and balance and compared it to the new one, I
went back to the hangar and reweighed the plane.
Old basic empty weight - 606 lb.
New basic empty weight - 546 lb.
Burt Rutan was right, if you take care of the ounces, the pounds take care
of themselves.
Now, I'm sure that most of the performance increase I'm seeing is because of
rebuilding the carbs and synching them to a gnat's whisker. When she revs up
now, the 582 feels like an electric motor. But getting rid of dead weight
sure didn't hurt, either.
I haven't repeated the climb tests to find Vx and Vy, for now I just know
this. The published pattern altitude for 18KS is 900'. I didn't want to go
around twice so I used 500'. Now I reach 900' and start to pull back the
power when I finish the turn to downwind.
Rick Girard
do not archive
Message 44
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Subject: | Re: Kolb gph fuel burn survey |
Eugene, I'll be out of phase one testing and going off to breakfast at Ponca
City this Saturday. I'll do a careful test going there and back with my 582
powered Mk IIIC.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All Kolbers,
>
> I'm curious what other kolb pilots are experiencing as their gallon per
> hour fuel burn?
>
> What is your sustained level flight absolute minimum gal, per hr? At what
> engine rpm? And at what cruise speed?
>
> What is your over all "average" gal. per hr. engine rpm, and cruise
> speed?
>
> Please specify the model of your plane and engine when you share your
> statistics.
>
> Statistic from flights of 2 hours or longer will likely be more accurate
> and reliable than shorter flights, but please share whatever you personally
> experience with your plane.
>
>
> Eugene Zimmerman
>
>
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