---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/08/09: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:37 AM - Re: rookie video (pj.ladd) 2. 02:40 AM - Re: Microbes in the fuel (pj.ladd) 3. 02:52 AM - Re: Re: Tail shaking (pj.ladd) 4. 03:34 AM - Re: rookie video (Jimmy Young) 5. 05:53 AM - Re: Microbes in the fuel (russ kinne) 6. 06:48 AM - Re: Tail shaking (Richard Pike) 7. 07:29 AM - Re: Tail shaking (Ralph B) 8. 07:31 AM - Re: Microbes in the fuel (Beauford T) 9. 07:43 AM - Re: Weight limit - Kolb Twinstar MKII (cristalclear13) 10. 07:47 AM - Re: Weight limit - Kolb Twinstar MKII (cristalclear13) 11. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Weight limit - Kolb Twinstar MKII (Richard Girard) 12. 08:55 AM - Vortex Generators (r3000@warwick.net) 13. 09:55 AM - Re: wing attach vector (Jack B. Hart) 14. 10:17 AM - Re: wing attach vector (Richard Girard) 15. 11:42 AM - Re: wing attach vector (robert bean) 16. 11:54 AM - Why a Kolb? (beberle) 17. 11:54 AM - Re: Microbes in the fuel (possums) 18. 12:40 PM - Re: Why a Kolb? (Richard Girard) 19. 02:43 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike) 20. 03:14 PM - Re: wing attach vector (Jack B. Hart) 21. 03:41 PM - Re: Aging Kolbers (Dana Hague) 22. 03:41 PM - Re: Aging Kolbers (Dana Hague) 23. 03:42 PM - Re: wing attach vector (robert bean) 24. 03:45 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (beauford) 25. 03:51 PM - Re: Microbes in the fuel (Dana Hague) 26. 04:12 PM - Re: soldering tail wires (Dana Hague) 27. 04:13 PM - Re: Tail shaking (Dana Hague) 28. 05:13 PM - Re: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 29. 05:27 PM - Re: Sealing a Westach fuel gauge sender to a plastic tank (R Harris) 30. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (robert bean) 31. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Larry Cottrell) 32. 05:51 PM - Re: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question (Larry Cottrell) 33. 06:18 PM - Re: Why a Kolb? (gliderx5@comcast.net) 34. 06:18 PM - Re: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question (Herb) 35. 07:02 PM - Re: Why a Kolb? (ces308) 36. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Larry Cottrell) 37. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Beauford T) 38. 07:52 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Girard) 39. 08:19 PM - Re: Aging Kolbers (Jody Morgan) 40. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators () 41. 09:41 PM - Re: Why a Kolb? (dalewhelan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:35 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: rookie video Texas coastline between Freeport and Matagorda >> Hi Jimmy, thanks for the pics. really enjoyable. About 50 years ago I was staying in Houston with a Rotary Exchange team and knowing that I was interested in flying I was billeted on a flyer. This guy had a house about as big my home town and a pile of money it would take you a week to walk round. He turned up for breakfast in a denim shirt ,blue jeans (which I don`t think we had in the UK at that time) complete with belt a big silver buckle with the head of a longhorn on it, and a pair of patterned cowboy boots. Y` wanna fly? "he said. We clambered into a Ford F100 with a couple of guns in a rack between the seats. There were holes to put our Coors in on the dashboard. Guns and beer in a moving vehicle,! In fact drinking while we drove!. This was a new world for this wet behind the ears Brit fresh from a country where almost nobody had a gun, and nobody drank in a vehicle, let alone have a holder for the beer fitted as standard.. We drove to a `cow pasture` a couple of miles away (still on his ranch) at the end of which was a beaten up old corrugated iron shed. The guy took a key from his pocket, unlocked the shed and we dragged out a fairly scruffy Cessna. Preflight? Forget it. We dipped the oil, climbed in and turned the starter, taxied up the field a took off." I`ve got some cattle on some islands offf the coast" he said. We flew down the Inter coastal to Matagordo and he found his islands and went down to nought feet to inspect his cattle. He stood this plane on its wingtip nearly at sea level while he looked over his herd. I have never seen anyone do so many damn stupid things in my life. This guy flew with the same sort of belief in his ability that a sixteen year old kid has on his bike. The plane was just an extension of his senses. If he wanted to fly THERE, thats where the plane went. After my first sheer terror I just resigned my self to be being killed in the near future and enjoyed it After inspecting the cattle we got a bit of height and flew along the coast looking at an oil rig being towed along the Intercoastal .. We inspected the scene of an accident where a tug had lost its string of barges. They were stuck on sandbanks and up the beach for a couple of miles. Something else I had never seen was a train of barges being pushed. We pull them in Europe. A great flight. Thanks for reminding me. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:49 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Microbes in the fuel Hi john, I'll take a dozen of those items. My fuel is long past due for some serious straightening.>> Hi John, I must say that I did wonder why this problem had not cropped up and been traced to its source before this. No reason to doubt the story. though. It was reported as pukka gen, not an advert. Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:34 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tail shaking West Yellowstone, Montana - Forecasting 29F tonight with rain and snow. >> Hi John, Dont envy you the weather but I certainly do the country. Up there about 5 years ago. Superb Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: rookie video From: "Jimmy Young" Richard Pike asked: > it appears that your windscreen is lightly tinted. If so, where did you get the tinted Lexan? Richard, Yes, it is tinted light grey. I got it at A & C Plastics in Houston http://www.acplasticsinc.com/ ,but it's brand name is "Makrolon". They had both 1/16" & 1/8" thickness available when I bought it last fall. -------- Jimmy Young FS II, HKS 700 N7043P Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262019#262019 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:54 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Microbes in the fuel Pat We used to add "PRIST" to avgas; a bactericide that reportedly killed the bacteria living on the fuel-water interface. Can't prove it worked, but no troubles and it made us feel better, esp in remote areas. On the big marine diesels; 600HP and up -- in the tropics algae can grow into big enough clumps to plug up the humungous fuel filters, 6-7" across. If not run every day or two we added "BIOBOR", a powerful algicide Russ PS On this side of the pond, if you're not making a profit (or trying to) on pirated copyrighted works, no one seems to care. I think you're safe. On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:54 PM, pj.ladd wrote: > There has been much said about filters lately. > This may be a new slant. I have paraphrased it from an article in > the current `Microlight magazine. > After many months investigating sudden loss of pwer in their 503 > during which everything, fuel lines, pump,ignition etc., was > changed,cleaned, and so on it was found that the filter was being > blocked by microbial contamination which grew into `colonies`.. > This was intoduced into the fuel supply through water in the > premix oil. Oil is hygroscopic(attracts water) the oil was being > drawn from a 20 litre drum as needed. Once opened the oil in the > drum attracted water and the bacteria attached themselves to the > wall of the fuel tank.The bacteria grew on the fuel filter mesh > because that was where daylight shone through the glass. > For those with 4 strokes. Biofuel is now added to petrol and this > contains ethanol which is highly hygroscopic so the same thing may > be expected to happen. > The problem was cured by introducing a magnetic field into the fuel > line. This appaerently disrupts the cellular structure of the > microbes and prevents them growing big enough clusters to block the > filter. > Try www.purefueltechnologies.com > > Hope I don`t get `done` for copyright infringement. > > Cheers > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:49 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tail shaking From: "Richard Pike" ces308 wrote: > Hello all....I took another video out the back with the doors and windows off and this is what I got. The video is not the best ,but it doesn't seem that bad...looks worse on the ground that in the air... > Anyway...for what it's worth.... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU-Hr6HigcQ > > > chris ambrose > M3X/Jab 60+hrs > N327CS Based on your video, the tail is going to get way more abuse on the ground taxiing than in the air. I am adding a "Hauck tailwheel brace" to mine and not worrying about it. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262040#262040 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tail shaking From: "Ralph B" The problem with loose tail wires is the the stainless thimbles will wear a "notch" into it over time. This happened on my Original Firestar with the wingnut used to tighten it at the bottom of the rudder post. After replacing with new wires, I decided to use a lock nut and wrench to get it tighter. The old wires shook while flying as I could see them well. After tightening with the new ones, the tail still shakes, but not as much. The kit used a wingnut because Homer wanted to keep the setup simple without the use of tools. The wingnut just didn't get it tight enough. The Kolbra uses turnbuckles to tighten and they are reasonably tight with no tail shake with the 6" fuse tube (Firestar uses a 5" fuse tube). Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 960 hours 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262046#262046 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_view_545.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:43 AM PST US From: "Beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Microbes in the fuel Brothers Pat and John: Being a slow-learner, am still pondering whether the evidence warrants bolting magnets onto our fuel lines just yet.... or, of more immediate consequence, whether it would be worth lining my Adidas with refrigerator magnets to handle the athlete's foot mess... There is sure a lot of skepticism in the literature and across the internet about the claims that magnets can kill algae by affecting cellular reproduction... especially when the "target" cells are exposed to the field for only a second or two as they pass through the little magnet unit on the fuel line. Anecdotal evidence can be dangerous. As one astute observer pointed out, if magnetism really does disrupt organic cellular function and reproduction, consider then what effect prolonged exposure to super high magnetic fields should be capable of doing to cells -- There would have to be sick and dying freshly-imaged patients littering the exits and parking lots of every MRI facility in the world, and the facilities themselves would be bacterially sterile throughout... ...just a thought... non-ferrous beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: pj.ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 5:38 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Microbes in the fuel Hi john, I'll take a dozen of those items. My fuel is long past due for some serious straightening.>> Hi John, I must say that I did wonder why this problem had not cropped up and been traced to its source before this. No reason to doubt the story. though. It was reported as pukka gen, not an advert. Pat ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weight limit - Kolb Twinstar MKII From: "cristalclear13" dutrac wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I just purchased a Kolb MKII. I've read through the manuals and searched the internet (including this list) for one seemingly simple spec on the aircraft. Can someone tell me? What is the max gross weight? > > Thanks, > > Duane Duane, When I first purchased my Mark II I believe I got the attached document from Dennis at Kolb. Congratulations on your new plane. You'll love it. -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262054#262054 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mark_ii_specs_482.tif ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:53 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weight limit - Kolb Twinstar MKII From: "cristalclear13" cristalclear13 wrote: > > When I first purchased my Mark II I believe I got the attached document from Dennis at Kolb. > Looks like the .tif file didn't work. Here is the same file as .jpg. -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262055#262055 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mark_ii_specs_134.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Weight limit - Kolb Twinstar MKII From: Richard Girard Cristal, The tiff file came through fine here. I did the same and cropped it a bit. Rick Girard On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:47 AM, cristalclear13 wrote: > cristalclearwaters@gmail.com> > > > cristalclear13 wrote: > > > > When I first purchased my Mark II I believe I got the attached document > from Dennis at Kolb. > > > > > Looks like the .tif file didn't work. Here is the same file as .jpg. > > -------- > Cristal Waters > Kolb Mark II Twinstar > Rotax 503 DCSI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262055#262055 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/mark_ii_specs_134.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:09 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Vortex Generators From: r3000@warwick.net The post "Summary of Kolb database" says 35% of the poll participants use vortex generators in their machines. Can somebody provide figures on the their aircraft weight and stall speed before and after installing the VGs? I am asking because I am interested in a project, (not a Kolb, sorry,) that could be flown as a legal Part-103 ultralight if I can bring down the stall speed. Thanks, Roberto Waltman ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:14 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: wing attach vector At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote: > >Here's one to ponder. .. Maybe it has been covered before and I >missed it. >Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90 >outboard, where would the net >force be pushing on the front attach fitting? 325? > >Jack Hart is our most analytical soul :) Bob, I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the calculations. I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing horizontal. Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight. I calculated two cases. The first assumes the load is evenly distributed over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the wing tip to the hole through the main spar tab. For the second case I assumed that the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air spilling off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward. The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the first case and 187 degrees for the second case. When you think about it is reasonable. With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the strut. This means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut anchoring point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting. But the spar between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression. In the FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45 degrees to the wing. So the spar compression is almost equal to the lift. With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little up load at the spar cage attachment point. And so the vector comes out close to 180 degrees. I hope this makes sense. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: wing attach vector From: Richard Girard Jack, Forgive me but under the reference frame where 0 /360 is up (parallel to lift) having the spar pin load at 180 (straight down) is just not obvious to me. Are we talking differing reference frames? If not, can you explain how the load coming in from the spar takes a hard 90 degree turn.I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to start a Florida discussion :-), I honestly just don't see it. Rick Girard do not archive On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Here's one to ponder. .. Maybe it has been covered before and I > >missed it. > >Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90 > >outboard, where would the net > >force be pushing on the front attach fitting? 325? > > > >Jack Hart is our most analytical soul :) > > > Bob, > > I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the > calculations. I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing > horizontal. > Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight. > > I calculated two cases. The first assumes the load is evenly distributed > over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the wing tip > to the hole through the main spar tab. For the second case I assumed that > the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air spilling > off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward. > > The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the first > case > and 187 degrees for the second case. When you think about it is > reasonable. > With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the strut. > This > means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut anchoring > point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting. But the spar > between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression. In the > FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45 > degrees to the wing. So the spar compression is almost equal to the lift. > With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little up load > at the spar cage attachment point. And so the vector comes out close to > 180 > degrees. > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:54 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: wing attach vector Rick, Jack has been doing some inverted flight. BB On 8, Sep 2009, at 1:17 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > Jack, Forgive me but under the reference frame where 0 /360 is up > (parallel to lift) having the spar pin load at 180 (straight down) > is just not obvious to me. Are we talking differing reference > frames? If not, can you explain how the load coming in from the > spar takes a hard 90 degree turn. > I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to start a Florida > discussion :-), I honestly just don't see it. > > Rick Girard > do not archive > > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Jack B. Hart > wrote: > > > At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Here's one to ponder. .. Maybe it has been covered before and I > >missed it. > >Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90 > >outboard, where would the net > >force be pushing on the front attach fitting? 325? > > > >Jack Hart is our most analytical soul :) > > > Bob, > > I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the > calculations. I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing > horizontal. > Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight. > > I calculated two cases. The first assumes the load is evenly > distributed > over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the > wing tip > to the hole through the main spar tab. For the second case I > assumed that > the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air > spilling > off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward. > > The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the > first case > and 187 degrees for the second case. When you think about it is > reasonable. > With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the > strut. This > means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut > anchoring > point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting. But the > spar > between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression. > In the > FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45 > degrees to the wing. So the spar compression is almost equal to > the lift. > With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little > up load > at the spar cage attachment point. And so the vector comes out > close to 180 > degrees. > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > ========== > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Why a Kolb? From: "beberle" Hello, I'm a new PPL with a whopping 65hours under my belt. I'm looking for the cheapest way to fly... with an engine. I'm already a hang glider pilot [Wink] I'm looking at ELSA (do my own annuals), small engine (less fuel burn) and folding wings to avoid hangar fees. Is the Kolb M3X for me? Looking at Jabiru2200 power. Would like to do short cross countries for the $100 hamburger or the 120miles to the hang glider LZ. Other option is a Kitfox IV. Better gross weight, but also a larger aircraft... harder to stow & tow? All advice welcome! The local EAA seems to be mostly into RVs or vintage. I'm in the Atlanta/Hartsfield 30mile umbrella, so transponder/avionics are a must, but have seen some nice M3X setups online. Brian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262096#262096 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:47 AM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Microbes in the fuel At 10:29 AM 9/8/2009, you wrote: >Brothers Pat and John: >Being a slow-learner, am still pondering whether the evidence >warrants bolting magnets onto our fuel lines just yet.... or, of >more immediate consequence, whether it would be worth lining my >Adidas with refrigerator magnets to handle the athlete's foot mess... > >There is sure a lot of skepticism in the literature and across the internet > >...just a thought... > >non-ferrous beauford Cynical beauford........ I've got a "Magnetic Fuel Saver" on my plane and I've had to put an overflow valve on both tanks. On long trips I end up with more gas than I started with. You see Norm With a magnetic field we can increase the internal energy of the fuel, causing specific changes at a molecular level. Increasing the internal energy to obtain more easier combustion. The molecules fly apart easier, join with oxygen easier and ignite easier. 'Ionization' implies that the fuel acquires a 'charge' and molecules of like charge repel each other, this makes fuel dispersal more efficient. Then if you charge the air to the opposite polarity, then the fuel and oxygen combine far quicker than 'normal'. It's all right there on the Internet! http://www.tinet.cat/~sje/mag_fuel.htm ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why a Kolb? From: Richard Girard Brian, Coming here for advice on whether to get a Kolb aircraft is a bit like going to the local Baptist church and asking if you should look into Jesus. :-).All I'm going to say is I like mine. The view isn't quite as good as it is from my Sensor 510 (probably before your time), but it's better than anything else I've flown except my trike. Rick Girard do not archive On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:54 PM, beberle wrote: > > Hello, > I'm a new PPL with a whopping 65hours under my belt. I'm looking for the > cheapest way to fly... with an engine. I'm already a hang glider pilot > [Wink] > I'm looking at ELSA (do my own annuals), small engine (less fuel burn) and > folding wings to avoid hangar fees. Is the Kolb M3X for me? Looking at > Jabiru2200 power. Would like to do short cross countries for the $100 > hamburger or the 120miles to the hang glider LZ. > Other option is a Kitfox IV. Better gross weight, but also a larger > aircraft... harder to stow & tow? > > All advice welcome! The local EAA seems to be mostly into RVs or vintage. > I'm in the Atlanta/Hartsfield 30mile umbrella, so transponder/avionics are a > must, but have seen some nice M3X setups online. > > Brian > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262096#262096 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators From: "Richard Pike" rwaltman wrote: > The post "Summary of Kolb database" says 35% of the poll participants use vortex generators in their machines. > > Can somebody provide figures on the their aircraft weight and stall speed > before and after installing the VGs? > > I am asking because I am interested in a project, (not a Kolb, sorry,) > that could be flown as a legal Part-103 ultralight if I can bring down the > stall speed. > > Thanks, > > Roberto Waltman Here is my experience - http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/Vortex%20Generators.html http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/FSII%20Vortex%20Generators.html Recently looked at Beauford's Firefly and his VG setup, consequently will be going to the little plastic triangular store bought VG's when we rebuild the FSII as he has found them to work better than the homemade ones. Hope this helps - Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262118#262118 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:38 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: wing attach vector You guys got me. I calculated everything with zero to the right, and forgot to rotate to your reference system, one would have add 90 degrees. The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 285 degrees for the first case and 277 degrees for the second case. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote: > >Here's one to ponder. .. Maybe it has been covered before and I >missed it. >Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90 >outboard, where would the net >force be pushing on the front attach fitting? 325? > >Jack Hart is our most analytical soul :) Bob, I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the calculations. I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing horizontal. Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight. I calculated two cases. The first assumes the load is evenly distributed over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the wing tip to the hole through the main spar tab. For the second case I assumed that the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air spilling off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward. The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the first case and 187 degrees for the second case. When you think about it is reasonable. With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the strut. This means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut anchoring point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting. But the spar between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression. In the FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45 degrees to the wing. So the spar compression is almost equal to the lift. With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little up load at the spar cage attachment point. And so the vector comes out close to 180 degrees. I hope this makes sense. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:24 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Aging Kolbers At 06:41 AM 9/6/2009, pj.ladd wrote: >...I get the same problem with Pat being construed as a girls name. But >only once. As do I... -Dana -- But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles? ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:29 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Aging Kolbers At 06:41 AM 9/6/2009, pj.ladd wrote: >...I get the same problem with Pat being construed as a girls name. But >only once. As do I... -Dana -- But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles? ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:18 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: wing attach vector That's an agreeable (and believable) calculation. If the force at that point was only tension the beam between could be a skinny little tube. The square tube on the MkII has a reason. - not sure what the FF has there. The forward cabin area is subject to reversals of thrust, such as during a hard landing when the engine weight and wing forces give a downward (and outward) whack. Thanks Jack. BB On 8, Sep 2009, at 7:23 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > > You guys got me. I calculated everything with zero to the right, > and forgot to rotate to your reference system, one would have add > 90 degrees. The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 285 > degrees for the first case and 277 degrees for the second case. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote: >> >> Here's one to ponder. .. Maybe it has been covered before and I >> missed it. >> Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90 >> outboard, where would the net >> force be pushing on the front attach fitting? 325? >> >> Jack Hart is our most analytical soul :) > > > Bob, > > I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the > calculations. I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing > horizontal. > Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight. > > I calculated two cases. The first assumes the load is evenly > distributed > over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the > wing tip > to the hole through the main spar tab. For the second case I > assumed that > the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air > spilling > off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward. > > The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the > first case > and 187 degrees for the second case. When you think about it is > reasonable. > With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the > strut. This > means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut > anchoring > point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting. But the > spar > between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression. > In the > FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45 > degrees to the wing. So the spar compression is almost equal to > the lift. > With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little > up load > at the spar cage attachment point. And so the vector comes out > close to 180 > degrees. > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators From: "beauford" Brother Waltman: Despite Brother Pike's reference to improvements from the VG's, still getting mixed results and experimenting with the placement. Not totally satisfied that these things work that well. Am currently back 11.5 inches from the leading edge, (see photo) but thinking of reducing this to about 10 inches. Have some more testing planned with yarn tufts to see where the boundry layer is breaking away... You mentioned that your machine wasn't a Kolb... What kind of airfoil are you working with...? beauford FF-076 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262133#262133 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/vginstalljpg_554.jpg ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:28 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Microbes in the fuel At 12:54 PM 9/7/2009, pj.ladd wrote: >The problem was cured by introducing a magnetic field into the fuel line. >This appaerently disrupts the cellular structure of the microbes and >prevents them growing big enough clusters to block the filter. >Try www.purefueltechnologies.com Sounds like a new slant on the fuel line magnets that were supposed to "break up hydrocarbon clusters" and give you an amazing increase in your gas mileage. When the government came down on them for false advertising, they must've found a new angle to sell those things... -Dana -- The most important and least understood aspect of life in America is stupidity. -- F.Zappa ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:19 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: soldering tail wires At 10:05 AM 9/5/2009, Mike Welch wrote: > > In the latest copy of Sport Aviation Magazine, there is an article > about securing the cable thimble with stainless steel wire, then soldered > the wrapped wire (3 locations). > > This method of securing cable fittings allows for a very slender cable > end, rather than that annoying nodule of a Nico lug. If they are > finished off with a covering of heat shrink, they look very professional. > > BTW, although I haven't read the complete article, yet, it appears as > though the author also did some stress analysis tests (destructive testing). > > Has anyone fabricated their cables before with this kind of > method? Really does look nice!! I would be very leery of using solder on structural cable. Not only is there the uncertainty of how well the solder has flowed and bonded to the cable, but the flux can be corrosive. Also, the solder stiffens the cable, which can lead to fatigue cracking. Finally, there's the effect of the heat on the heat treated cable. I'll stick to the well proven Nicopress sleeves. -Dana -- The most important and least understood aspect of life in America is stupidity. -- F.Zappa ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:22 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail shaking At 04:56 PM 9/5/2009, Jim Kmet wrote: >Yea, the whole rear end of the plane will shake a little too., I've never noticed it in the air, but the tail of my UltraStar shakes alarmingly on the ground when I do a preflight runup. -Dana -- The most important and least understood aspect of life in America is stupidity. -- F.Zappa ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question From: Ellery Batchelder Jr ?In my Mk3CKThe radio & intercom system works great and no static at all until I turn on the GPS then there's steady noise (static)?in the headsets that would drive anyone nuts so I have been flying? without GPS but I would like to find a remedy for this anyone have any ideas on what I can try to remedy this I have tried using the GPS running on its? internal battery's and I get the same results installed remote GPS Antenna and nothing seems to make a difference anyone else ever have this problem? How did you Fix it Thanks in advance if you can help me solve this problem Ellery in Maine ?? ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Sealing a Westach fuel gauge sender to a plastic tank From: "R Harris" Thanks for the heads up Rick. Just measured mine, they are both ( old & new ) the same 13.5 inches. Richard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262153#262153 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:15 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators bad boy. On 8, Sep 2009, at 6:45 PM, beauford wrote: > > Brother Waltman: > Despite Brother Pike's reference to improvements from the VG's, > still getting mixed results and experimenting with the placement. > Not totally satisfied that these things work that well. Am > currently back 11.5 inches from the leading edge, (see photo) but > thinking of reducing this to about 10 inches. Have some more > testing planned with yarn tufts to see where the boundry layer is > breaking away... > > You mentioned that your machine wasn't a Kolb... What kind of > airfoil are you working with...? > > beauford > FF-076 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262133#262133 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vginstalljpg_554.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:10 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators Beauford, I put my first 7 VG's on the ribs at 11 inches, and got a 5 or so MPH reduction in stall. I decided to put 7 more of them evenly in between the ribs at 10 inches and obtained an equal amount of stall reduction, which lead me to believe that 10 inches would be the better place to install them. I think if you figure the percentage that is recommended of 10 percent comes out closer to 10 than 11 inches. Like you say- " worth what you paid for it" Larry C ----- Original Message ----- From: beauford To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:45 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators Brother Waltman: Despite Brother Pike's reference to improvements from the VG's, still getting mixed results and experimenting with the placement. Not totally satisfied that these things work that well. Am currently back 11.5 inches from the leading edge, (see photo) but thinking of reducing this to about 10 inches. Have some more testing planned with yarn tufts to see where the boundry layer is breaking away... You mentioned that your machine wasn't a Kolb... What kind of airfoil are you working with...? beauford FF-076 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262133#262133 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/vginstalljpg_554.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/08/09 06:48:00 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:46 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question I had the same problem with my 196 on internal power, but when I take it off it doesn't cause any problems or noise. Not usable with internal power. Boyd suggested that it was the data wires integrated in the cable. I drilled them out of the end that runs into the GPS, but it didn't cure the problem. So I just run it on batteries. Not sure why you are still getting static. Larry C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ellery Batchelder Jr To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question In my Mk3CKThe radio & intercom system works great and no static at all until I turn on the GPS then there's steady noise (static) in the headsets that would drive anyone nuts so I have been flying without GPS but I would like to find a remedy for this anyone have any ideas on what I can try to remedy this I have tried using the GPS running on its internal battery's and I get the same results installed remote GPS Antenna and nothing seems to make a difference anyone else ever have this problem? How did you Fix it Thanks in advance if you can help me solve this problem Ellery in Maine ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/08/09 06:48:00 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:23 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why a Kolb? Brian I have a 503 powered MKII. I just flew 252 miles round trip with my golf clubs along for the ride to meet a friend for a round at Butter Valley. Lots of fun. I'm heading for a pancake breakfast Saturday, and a camp out weekend in October. 3.6 GPH, great view, no hanger (I stow in a trailer, 15 minutes). It may not be for everyone, but it suits my style of flying. Malcolm Morrison MKII http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/kolb.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "beberle" Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:54:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Kolb-List: Why a Kolb? Hello, I'm a new PPL with a whopping 65hours under my belt. I'm looking for the cheapest way to fly... with an engine. I'm already a hang glider pilot [Wink] I'm looking at ELSA (do my own annuals), small engine (less fuel burn) and folding wings to avoid hangar fees. Is the Kolb M3X for me? Looking at Jabiru2200 power. Would like to do short cross countries for the $100 hamburger or the 120miles to the hang glider LZ. Other option is a Kitfox IV. Better gross weight, but also a larger aircraft... harder to stow & tow? All advice welcome! The local EAA seems to be mostly into RVs or vintage. I'm in the Atlanta/Hartsfield 30mile umbrella, so transponder/avionics are a must, but have seen some nice M3X setups online. Brian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262096#262096 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:23 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question The computer and digital circuits in the gps generate a wide band of radio noise.. By law the strength of the radiation is limited.. Separating the two devices as far as is practical might help? Tying both units to a common ground might work? ..otherwise make an aluminum case for as much of the gps as is practical and ground that.. Herb At 07:41 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote: >I had the same problem with my 196 on internal power, but when I >take it off it doesn't cause any problems or noise. Not usable with >internal power. Boyd suggested that it was the data wires integrated >in the cable. I drilled them out of the end that runs into the GPS, >but it didn't cure the problem. So I just run it on batteries. Not >sure why you are still getting static. >Larry C >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ellery Batchelder Jr >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:12 PM >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HELP Radio GPS Noise Question > > In my Mk3CKThe radio & intercom system works great and no static > at all until I turn on the GPS then there's steady noise (static) > in the headsets that would drive anyone nuts so I have been > flying without GPS but I would like to find a remedy for this > anyone have any ideas on what I can try to remedy this I have tried > using the GPS running on its internal battery's and I get the same > results installed remote GPS Antenna and nothing seems to make a > difference anyone else ever have this problem? How did you Fix it > >Thanks in advance if you can help me solve this problem > >Ellery in Maine > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > >href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > >---------- >- Release Date: 09/08/09 06:48:00 > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:36 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Why a Kolb? From: "ces308" Hello Brian, I have a M3X with a A2200 jabiru and I love the airplane...I'm getting great climb numbers ,cruises 70-90 mph 2 people,full fuel (20 gal) .i CAN'T SAY ENOUGH NICE THINGS ABOUT THIS AIRCRAFT.The New Kolb Aircraft has a nice one for sale with a Rotax 912 in it...you should give Travis a call and talk to him about it ! Check this YouTube link out and give it a look ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRQHKyyloWM the next link is of my aircraft....take a look! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8SRGtxfsII Good luck! chris ambrose M3X/Jab 60+ hrs N327CS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262179#262179 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:18 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators OOOOOOOOOOOPS! snookered again. Larry C ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Cottrell To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators Beauford, I put my first 7 VG's on the ribs at 11 inches, and got a 5 or so MPH reduction in stall. I decided to put 7 more of them evenly in between the ribs at 10 inches and obtained an equal amount of stall reduction, which lead me to believe that 10 inches would be the better place to install them. I think if you figure the percentage that is recommended of 10 percent comes out closer to 10 than 11 inches. Like you say- " worth what you paid for it" Larry C ----- Original Message ----- From: beauford To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:45 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators Brother Waltman: Despite Brother Pike's reference to improvements from the VG's, still getting mixed results and experimenting with the placement. Not totally satisfied that these things work that well. Am currently back 11.5 inches from the leading edge, (see photo) but thinking of reducing this to about 10 inches. Have some more testing planned with yarn tufts to see where the boundry layer is breaking away... You mentioned that your machine wasn't a Kolb... What kind of airfoil are you working with...? beauford FF-076 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262133#262133 Attachments: http://fp; Navigator Photoshare, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic p; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- - www.avg.com 09/08/09 06:48:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/08/09 06:48:00 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:51 PM PST US From: "Beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators Yes... I know... guilty as charged, Brother Bean... bad boy... The photo is an old gag... although I'll bet someone has tried them down there... Brother Waltman: The Landshorter clear lexan VG's Brother Pike referred to seeing when he was visiting are right up on top of the wing at 10% of chord exactly where the LS people said to put them. Substantial performance improvement over the homemade aluminum jobs, which were at 11.5 inches. I don't have the exact measurement at hand, but the Landshorters are roughly 2.5 inches forward of where the old aluminum ones were. The Fly actually feels a tad floaty with the Landshorters... vice the previous imitation of a lawn dart it wanted to execute when the power was chopped before. The aluminum VG's helped some, and were definitely better than nothing, but the LS installation really changed the game. It now gives a pretty fair power-off glide at 46 or so indicated ... before, at anything below 50 it seemed as if you would be looking almost between your feet at where the impact crater was likely to be. No real change in the stall personality...still a mild non-event at normal acceleration... just a few mph slower than before. There is a real improvement in the landing flare in ground effect... again, more bouyant. I like 'em. To me, anything which can extend the dead-stick glide and slow the terminal arrival speed of an airplane powered by a single-ignition, 2-stroke Nazi engine is a worthwhile insurance item. 'Ol bad beauford is going to now punish himself for posting the gag picture by going to bed without any (more) supper.... although he may get himself just a taste of cheap brandy and a Cusano 18 stogie and sit out back a while before bed...no sense in going Draconian over this... He'll be meditating about paper VG's... ...worth what ye paid fer it, Brother Waltman... beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive bad boy. > > > Not totally satisfied that these things work that well.> > > > beauford > FF-076 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262133#262133 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vginstalljpg_554.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators From: Richard Girard Okay, Beauford, that was just rude. :-) On a more serious note, has anyone read the Wind Tunnel column in the new issue of Kitplanes? Rick Girard On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Beauford T wrote: > > Yes... I know... guilty as charged, Brother Bean... bad boy... > > The photo is an old gag... although I'll bet someone has tried them down > there... > > Brother Waltman: > The Landshorter clear lexan VG's Brother Pike referred to seeing when he > was > visiting are right up on top of the wing at 10% of chord exactly where the > LS > people said to put them. Substantial performance improvement over the > homemade > aluminum jobs, which were at 11.5 inches. I don't have the exact > measurement at > hand, but the Landshorters are roughly 2.5 inches forward of where the old > aluminum ones were. > > The Fly actually feels a tad floaty with the Landshorters... vice the > previous > imitation of a lawn dart it wanted to execute when the power was chopped > before. > The aluminum VG's helped some, and were definitely better than nothing, but > the LS > installation really changed the game. It now gives a pretty fair power-off > glide > at 46 or so indicated ... before, at anything below 50 it seemed as if you > would > be looking almost between your feet at where the impact crater was likely > to be. > No real change in the stall personality...still a mild non-event at normal > acceleration... just a few mph slower than before. There is a real > improvement in > the landing flare in ground effect... again, more bouyant. I like 'em. To > me, > anything which can extend the dead-stick glide and slow the terminal > arrival speed > of an airplane powered by a single-ignition, 2-stroke Nazi engine is a > worthwhile > insurance item. > > 'Ol bad beauford is going to now punish himself for posting the gag picture > by > going to bed without any (more) supper.... although he may get himself just > a > taste of cheap brandy and a Cusano 18 stogie and sit out back a while > before > bed...no sense in going Draconian over this... He'll be meditating about > paper > VG's... > > ...worth what ye paid fer it, Brother Waltman... > > beauford > FF-076 > Brandon, FL > Do Not Archive > > > > > bad boy. > > > > > > > > Not totally satisfied that these things work that well.> > > > > > > beauford > > FF-076 > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262133#262133 > > > > > > > > > > Attachments: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vginstalljpg_554.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:44 PM PST US From: "Jody Morgan" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Aging Kolbers I am 6' 5" (or at least once was) and 240, so I have never been teased a lot about the Jody thing. Potential teasers may not have realized that "big" and "mean" are not synonymous. Top this one --- my middle name is Francis. As Pat might say.... thanks for that folks. Still 70 and not too old to tease OR build and fly my first Kolb!!! Jody -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dana Hague Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Aging Kolbers At 06:41 AM 9/6/2009, pj.ladd wrote: >...I get the same problem with Pat being construed as a girls name. But >only once. As do I... -Dana -- But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles? ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:13 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators My VG's are at about 11 inches back on my Mk III Classic. This location is based on the highest tangent line when the wing is at cruise attitude (about 7 degree). They work good, but I believe that they would produce a slower stall if they were on the top tangent of the airfoil when the angle of attack is at stall speed. Also, it is my opinion that I should have put them in the valleys between the ribs and not on the ribs. At any rate, I like them and it has saved my stock landing gear legs several times. Now that I have achieved a smooth tail wheel first landing, I plan to do most of my landings on the main gear. I cannot remember an airplane than I enjoyed flying more than my old Classic. It is for sale, but not because I don't like it. Vic N4201G ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Why a Kolb? From: "dalewhelan" I often fly into Mode C veil without a transponder. Why aircraft was not certificated with an engine driven charging system. I stay out of class B, C, and usually D. -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262218#262218 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.