Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:49 AM - Re: Modern GPSes (Mike Welch)
2. 02:24 AM - Re: Re: Modern GPSes (pj.ladd)
3. 02:39 AM - man. speedA (pj.ladd)
4. 04:13 AM - Re: man. speedA ()
5. 04:24 AM - Re: Modern GPSes (Dana Hague)
6. 05:22 AM - Re: Modern GPSes (2danglico)
7. 05:30 AM - Re: Tachometers (2danglico)
8. 06:43 AM - Re: Modern GPSes (John Hauck)
9. 08:58 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Jason Omelchuck)
10. 09:10 AM - GPS (Richard Girard)
11. 09:13 AM - Re: GPS question (Watkinsdw)
12. 09:23 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Watkinsdw)
13. 09:48 AM - Re: HKS oil cooler damage (Bruce Bixler)
14. 10:17 AM - Gas line (william sullivan)
15. 12:04 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (JetPilot)
16. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Modern GPSes (possums)
17. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Jack B. Hart)
18. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (possums)
19. 02:36 PM - Re: Gas line (henry.voris)
20. 03:13 PM - Re: Gas line (william sullivan)
21. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: Gas line (Dana Hague)
22. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (chris davis)
23. 04:14 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (possums)
24. 05:20 PM - Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (JetPilot)
25. 05:44 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (JetPilot)
26. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (John Hauck)
27. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
28. 06:15 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (possums)
29. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (robert bean)
30. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (gliderx5@comcast.net)
31. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (possums)
32. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar (possums)
33. 08:07 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Jack B. Hart)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
John H.=2C
I can't claim to be a GPS antenna expert=2C and whether or not turbulence
could reduce it's
reception=2C thereby closing down GPS coverage.
The only thing I do know is that if my Garmin 95XL lost coverage due to a
condition like you describe=2C it did it at point where it coincided with
turbulence.
I don't suppose this is the first time a coincidence has ever happened=2C
but it sure appeared that way at the time. Was it one of those "blank spo
ts" you mention. Possibly. I didn't know they had any of them. Maybe?
No=2C I wasn't inverted. Bumps weren't quite that bad. Fact is=2C thoug
h=2C now that you mention the size of a blank spot=2C I'd say it could have
been a 40 mile hole. Coverage returned a couple of times. Maybe this was
a weak spot for reception. Keep in mind we are talking about earlier GPS
models. The newer ones have many times the dependablity
of the early 1990's models.
Fortunately=2C GPSes have come a very long way since those early days. E
ven the 196 is far better than my old 95XL. I usually only had 4 moderate
strength satellites(out of a possible 8). Turning the unit's antenna signi
ficantly affected the bar graph of the signal strength.
Mike Welch
Do not archive
From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Modern GPSes
Mike W/Gang:
I really do not know why GPS coverage is lost with no explanation. However
=2C over the years I have experienced blank spots that lasted=2C usually=2C
about 30 minutes at a time while flying cross country at about 80 mph or m
ore ground speed. That would equate to about a 40 mile diameter circle=2C
or distance.
I think it was 2005=2C we were flying to the Outer Banks in NC on the way t
o the Kolb Flyin. There were 5 of us Kolbs in the flight. I know John W a
nd I lost GPS coverage at the same time and for the same distance. I thoug
ht I had a bad antenna or coax cable. Just prior to arriving Trenton=2C SC
=2C the GPS coverage returned. No turbulence this day.
Another time in Alberta=2C Canada=2C lost coverage. Landed on a gravel roa
d=2C replaced antenna and coax=2C but still no gps coverage. A few minutes
later gps coverage returned.
Other times I have lost gps coverage=2C but can not remember the details.
Larry C suggested maybe you went inverted and masked the gps antenna moment
arily. Did you? =3B-)
As far as I can remember I have never lost gps coverage in turbulence. My
experience only.
Take care=2C
john h
mkIII
That was me that stated that before. You are entitled to any opinion you
want. How do I know it was turbulence that caused the coverage to go out
for a few minutes at a time?
Seeing as how I was there=2Cand I was watching the GPS=2C and riding the
bumps=2C that's the conclusion that I came to.
Mike Welch
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Modern GPSes |
Nobody believes me, but I was there.>
Hi Mike,
it is not a matter of believing that you saw what you said you saw but
suggesting another explanation. I cannot see that shaking a GPS could
cause loss of signal. Pretty easily checked. Shake it.
If you had a radio in your car which stopped working on a bumpy road I
don`t think you would put it down to loss of signal. You would go
looking for a loose connection somewhere.
Still...you were there
Cheers
Pat
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
All this talk about reducing speed in rough conditions!. Seems pretty
obvious to me that if it is rough you reduce speed to reduce the strain
on the plane.
Its just what you would do in your car. If its rough you take your foot
off the pedal.
Interesting piece about the pilot tearing the fin off an Airbus by
hammering the fin from side to side. I thought the basic design
philosophy of the Airbus was that the pilots inputs were smoothed by
putting them through a computer which stopped him doing that sort of
thing.
Flying to New Zealand in Feb. and I have specified no flights by Airbus.
Feel a bit of a traitor as the wings are built only about 20 miles from
home but I don`t like some of the stuff which is circulating on the net.
In fact there is so much of it I wonder sometimes if some of the stories
are not perpetrated by Boeing.
Cheers
Pat
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
You could always ask for a wing sea
Tony
Downunder
----- Original Message -----
From: pj.ladd
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:37 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: man. speedA
All this talk about reducing speed in rough conditions!. Seems pretty
obvious to me that if it is rough you reduce speed to reduce the strain
on the plane.
Its just what you would do in your car. If its rough you take your
foot off the pedal.
Interesting piece about the pilot tearing the fin off an Airbus by
hammering the fin from side to side. I thought the basic design
philosophy of the Airbus was that the pilots inputs were smoothed by
putting them through a computer which stopped him doing that sort of
thing.
Flying to New Zealand in Feb. and I have specified no flights by
Airbus. Feel a bit of a traitor as the wings are built only about 20
miles from home but I don`t like some of the stuff which is circulating
on the net. In fact there is so much of it I wonder sometimes if some of
the stories are not perpetrated by Boeing.
Cheers
Pat
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Modern GPSes |
At 12:16 AM 9/17/2009, robert bean wrote:
>If you want to get down to bare bones, I have an eTrex (that can be bought
>now for mini $$$) that will do what is really
>necessary. Tells you which way to point, how many miles left,
>groundspeed, altitude.
>
>Works fine. A whole lot better than an Omni. (remember them things?)
>
>only drawback is not being a genuine aviation gps so entering coordinates
>is a PITA...
I wrote a program that will create an airport database for any non-aviation
Garmin GPS that can accept custom POI's (points of interest). Airports
only, no airspace, direct from the FAA online database... saves punching in
numbers and has frequency and contact information. I use it with my Garmin
60CSx in my Kolb... I don't own an aviation GPS, and can't justify spending
the money for the limited amount of cross country flying I do... hell, when
I had my T-Craft I flew all over the eastern US without any electronics at all!
If anybody wants to try it, or wants more info, let me know.
-Dana
--
The early bird catches the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the
cheese.
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Modern GPSes |
My first GPS (on Ellery's recommendation) was a 295. So I never had a greyscale
model. But I also have had thoughts of upgrading, after all, the 295 is rather
long in tooth, and the 296 offers alot more features.
Then I thought about what I need in a GPS that the 295 doesn't deliver, the answer
I came to was, nothing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263490#263490
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Recently I replaced my instr. panel to make room for my GPS. I decided to leave
out my needle sweep tach and go with just the tiny tach. It was the one I referenced
while flying, because it was easier to see - and discern 5400 from 5500,
used less space, and while I've only had it timed once, proved to be balls
on accurate.
John Tempest
Firestar 447
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263493#263493
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Modern GPSes |
Mike W/Gang:
I started flying with GPS in 1993, a Garmin 55AVD. In 1994, I flew a 41
day cross country without ever losing GPS coverage. That flight covered
a lot of territory. The 55AVD had no moving map.
The 95XL had a tiny moving map.
The 196 was like big screen TV compared to my old GPS units. I believe
the screen and unit size is the same as the 296.
What I have noticed over the last 16 years of using GPS on land, air,
and sea, is the newer units have much faster processors and the ability
to acquire satelites much quicker.
I use a Comant GPS antenna mounted on top of the center section. I
bought this antenna in 1993. It works as good as the antenna that comes
with the units. I have used this antenna with all three of my GPS units
I use in the airplane.
I also use aircraft 12VDC to power the GPS, ICOM A3, and my ANR headset.
I hate spending money for batteries.
john h
mkIII
The newer ones have many times the dependablity
of the early 1990's models.
Fortunately, GPSes have come a very long way since those early days.
Even the 196 is far better than my old 95XL. I usually only had 4
moderate strength satellites(out of a possible 8). Turning the unit's
antenna significantly affected the bar graph of the signal strength.
Mike Welch
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Dave Watkins, thanks for posting your set up and findings.
I would like to know if you put any VG's in the area past the last outboard rib
(in between the last rib and wingtip bow).
Jason
MKIIIC Yamaha Powered
Portland, OR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263522#263522
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: GPS question |
Thanks, Guys.
I knew I could count on a lively discussion of the pros and cons of the upgrade.
(Please don't get on each other's case on my account.) I went the the Garmin
website and the screen shots show airspace (Class D, C and B) depicted in blue.
That's a little easier to pick out than the grey and black lines on my 196.
I'd like it even better if it would be user-configur-able to make those lines
bright red. (it sounds like if you put the curser on it, the color might change,
and that could help.) Need to get my hands on a 296 and play with it...
I like to fly with as much stuff on the screen as I can get, and that's probably
part of the problem. The 196 lets you select features to enable/disable on the
map to manage the clutter. (You can also press "Enter" to declutter..) Can't
have it both ways, (as my wife reminds me all the time,) but I keep trying!
I think I'll check ebay. If so, I might have a great 196 to offer here for sale...
That said, we all know, the most important picture to focus on is what's outside
that great lexan bubble we call a cockpit.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263529#263529
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Hi, Jason,
I elected not to place them beyond the last full rib. This was on the recommendation
of Joa Harrison, the designer. I see Mike Bigelow has his all the way out
to the wingtip bow, and someday, we'll hook up and try some side-by-side comparisons.
My reported figures were at max gross weight, about 1050.
They were ridiculous with only one occupant. My memory is fuzzy, but I think I
was stalling clean at about 25. With one notch of flaps, it was in the teens.
I felt like I could have got out and walked and measured the true airspeed with
a pedometer. Of course there was significant instrument error at those high
angles of attack, so this is clearly subjective.
Have fun -- that's what this is all about as near as I can tell.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263534#263534
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: HKS oil cooler damage |
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
- Last spring I installed a new gas line, and while looking the plane ove
r I saw that it had collapsed at a mild radius.- The hose below the gas l
evel was all mushy.- The line above the gas level is firm.- The hose wa
s acquired at a local auto parts store, and is marked as follows:- 09 13
08 Z------- 50PSI--- Fuel/Emission--- SAE 30R7-
-- Made in USA-- Goodyear
-
- I am replacing it with a Gates hose, also marked SAE 30R7.- The fuel
in the tank has 10% alcohol in it, plus Penzoil 2-stroke oil, plus Stabil.
- The last time I ran it, it sounded funny at higher throttle settings.
- I believe it was starved for gas, due to the hose sucking flat.- Luck
ily, it is not ready for flight and was only run in my back yard.
-
- Has anyone else noticed this problem?-
-
-------------------------
------------------------ Bi
ll Sullivan
-------------------------
------------------------ Wi
ndsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
------------------------ FS
447
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
My VG's go all the way to the bow tip, although I think Joe Harrison was correct
that they probably don't do any good there. There is really no airfoil for
the last 1.5 feet of the wingtip, and I doubt a VG will work where there is
no airfoil. I stuck them on because I had them, and I figured they would not
do any harm there.
This will change when I put the Hornier style wingtips on the MK III Xtra, I will
have a true airfoil all the way out to the tip, not wasting 3 feet of wingspan
on a flat board that provides no benefit.
My Stall speed is not as low as Dave's, I am looking forward to getting a look
at his plane very well to see what he did ! I also don't have Vortex Generators
under my horizontal stabilizer, just for the reason of being lazy , I need
to put them on soon.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263564#263564
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Modern GPSes |
At 08:22 AM 9/17/2009, you wrote:
>
>My first GPS (on Ellery's recommendation) was a 295. So I never had
>a greyscale model. But I also have had thoughts of upgrading, after
>all, the 295 is rather long in tooth, and the 296 offers alot more features.
>
>Then I thought about what I need in a GPS that the 295 doesn't
>deliver, the answer I came to was, nothing.
That's what I got - a good ole' outdated 295.
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
At 12:04 PM 9/17/09 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
This will change when I put the Hornier style wingtips on the MK III Xtra,
I will have a true airfoil all the way out to the tip, not wasting 3 feet of
wingspan on a flat board that provides no benefit.
>
Mike
That flat three feet outboard may not generate lift, but it does show benefit
in that it pushes the tip vortex outward, increases wing aspect ratio which
reduces induced drag.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester,
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
At 10:50 PM 9/16/2009, you wrote:
>
>Possums did a mod to the ailerons on his Firestar, The mods look
>good in the pictures he posted, I wonder if they lightened the
>aileron forces over the stock Firestar ?? It would be worth asking him.
>
>Mike
>
>--------
>"NO FEAR" -
It's the drooped wing tips - I took off the ailerons
last time I did a major rehab.
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
17sep09
Bill S.,
Im no help on the black fuel line, but recently Ive experienced a failure with
the blue urethane...
Nearly two years ago I had to park my FireFly and temporally relocate from Maui
to Oahu. (No, I wasn't in jail this time...) Shortly before parking the plane
I had replaced the fuel lines with the blue urethane line. The catalog said...
"Absolutely will not harden, crack, or become brittle with age." After my last
flight I did a somewhat incomplete job of draining the fuel.
Two weeks ago I got back to the plane and started to get her back to air worthiness.
In places where the fuel line was protected from the sun everything appeared to
be OK. In unprotected areas, the blue had completely faded from the side of the
line that faced the sun. In low places where fuel residue had gathered, the
line was shot full of hairline cracks. (None appeared to be leaking...)
Inside the fuel tank I had used a two-inch piece of the blue urethane to connect
the in-tank filter to the fuel pick-up tube. This piece of fuel line had completely
come apart. It was in a dozen little blue pieces on the bottom of the
tank. The little pieces would turn into a gritty blue jelly when given a squeeze.
I have elected to replace the blue line with the yellow tygothane... I note that
the catalog says it will... "Absolutely will not harden, crack, or become brittle
with age." And it cost more than the blue, so it's gotta be better... It
is softer than the blue and has a "snakey" feel. I like it already.
Twice, I have seen unidentified bits of detris being sucked up towards the impulse
pump in time to shut the engine down. This is why I have not migrated to the
black fuel line.
You can bet that when the yellow line hardens, cracks, or becomes brittle with
age, I'll be back to whine about it.
Almost forgot... Our fuel is 10% alcohol... Surprise, Surprise!!!
Aloha
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263584#263584
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
- Henry- My black neoprene line was exposed to sun while sitting in the y
ard.- I don't think it was affected by it, but you never know.- I was g
oing to use the yellow Tygothane, but I was concerned that it would collaps
e under suction.- I still wonder if it's the alcohol.- If alcohol makes
me soft and mushy, maybe it does the same to neoprene.
-
-------------------------
--------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
--------------- Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
--------------- FS 447
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
At 06:09 PM 9/17/2009, william sullivan wrote:
> Henry- My black neoprene line was exposed to sun while sitting in the
> yard. I don't think it was affected by it, but you never know. I was
> going to use the yellow Tygothane, but I was concerned that it would
> collapse under suction. I still wonder if it's the alcohol. If alcohol
> makes me soft and mushy, maybe it does the same to neoprene.
I have used the yellow Tygon on my PPG's, but the blue line is harder, less
susceptible to collapse, and lasts longer. You still need to replace it
every couple of years. I think it's the sunlight (UV) that does most of
the damage.
The yellow Tygon, which they market as "fuel and lubricant tubing", is a
vinyl product. Tygothane is something different, a polyurethane product,
and according to Tygon is NOT suitable for fuel.
There are other yellow "fuel" tubings out there... stay away, they're
cheaper than genuine Tygon and don't last nearly as long.
I know others prefer the black neoprene but I still like to see what's
inside (or not inside) my fuel lines.
-Dana
--
The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Jack thank you for your last you-said it finer than I am capable- of sa
ying it-! Chris=0A-Chris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisab
led from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________
____=0AFrom: Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>=0ATo: kolb-list@matroni
cs.com=0ASent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:08:56 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-
Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>=0A=0AAt 12:04 PM 9/17/09 -0700, you wrote:
>=0A>=0AThis will change when I put the Hornier style wingtips on the MK II
I Xtra, =0AI will have a true airfoil all the way out to the tip, not wasti
ng 3 feet of =0Awingspan on a flat board that provides no benefit.=0A>=0A
=0AMike=0A=0AThat flat three feet outboard may not generate lift, but it do
es show benefit =0Ain that it pushes the tip vortex outward, increases wing
aspect ratio which =0Areduces induced drag. =0A=0AJack B. Hart FF004=0AWin
==================0A=0A=0A
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
At 04:01 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:
>At 10:50 PM 9/16/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>Possums did a mod to the ailerons on his Firestar, The mods look
>>good in the pictures he posted, I wonder if they lightened the
>>aileron forces over the stock Firestar ?? It would be worth asking him.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>--------
>>"NO FEAR" -
I thought they changed the ailerons to the shorter ones on the
Firestar anyway?
I don't have any real good pictures of the "barn door" ailerons on my
old Firestar
except for these. They were tough to push at cruse speed.
My new (if 10 years old is new) thing has shorter, tapered ailerons
from (10 inches down to 8 inches? I forget))
They work a lot better & faster. I still have plenty of control a
slow/landing speeds.
VG's help a lot.
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
Possums,
What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ? The new plane looks real nice, I
like the little changes you made. Do you think the sharp trailing edges lighten
the control forces from the standard round tube trailing edges we have ?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263604#263604
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:
>
>
> That flat three feet outboard may not generate lift, but it does show benefit
in that it pushes the tip vortex outward, increases wing aspect ratio which reduces
induced drag.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester,
Jack,
The wingtip vortex may be outward of the airfoil on the current design wing, but
it still flows around the tip, and hits the top of the wing. If you remember
John H Test flights of the factory MK III Xtra, its stall numbers were much
lower with pure wing out to the end of the aileron even though it had no tip
at all. The same span new Kolb wing without any span wasted on the useless flat
wingtips has more lift than the old Kolb wing, and LESS induced drag. The
wing with the current flat wingtips actually INCREASE induced drag because of
all the area wasted where there is no airfoil, the opposite of what you claim.
The tests have been done and the results are in... The new wing design on the
factory Kolb MK III Xtra stalls at a significantly lower airspeed with no wingtip
at all, The old design wing that we all have now has less lift due to wasting
several feet of its span, and has higher induced drag.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=41264
Kolb changed the design for a reason, its been tested, and proven. Some can theorize
and talk about how great the current wingtip is all they want, its not
going to change the facts.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263606#263606
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
> What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ? The new plane looks real
nice, I like the little changes you made. Do you think the sharp trailing
edges lighten the control forces from the standard round tube trailing edges
we have ?
>
> Mike
Mike B/Gang:
I think the size of the ailerons on Kolbs are what load them up as speed
builds.
When I built my mkIII I reduced the cord of the ailerons and the flaps, plus
played with the mechanical advantage to help lighten stick pressure.
Homer built his airplanes to fly slow, not fast. Larger ailerons help
maintain roll control right through the mush and stall. Something nice to
have if we screw up.
My ailerons still load up above 65 or 70 mph, but I have learned to live
with this condition. It is not a safety factor, in my opinion. If you want
something with snappier roll rate, get a FF or SS.
john h
mkIII
Rock House, Oregon
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
I would imagine a sharp trailing edge would only reduce drag and look better
My two cents worth
Ellery in MAINE
-----Original Message-----
From: JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Sep 17, 2009 8:19 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar
Possums,
What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ? The new plane looks real nice, I
like the little changes you made. Do you think the sharp trailing edges
lighten the control forces from the standard round tube trailing edges we have
?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263604#263604
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
At 08:19 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:
>
>Possums,
>
>What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ? The new plane looks
>real nice, I like the little changes you made. Do you think the
>sharp trailing edges lighten the control forces from the standard
>round tube trailing edges we have ?
>
>Mike
As far a the sharp trailing edges, they are standard GA stuff from
AircraftSpruce.
I just think they look cleaner than "Homer's" bumps. (Not there's anything
wrong with the bumps) I don't think the edges do anything to the
control forces,
just "cosmetic" like I said before "so I could fit in with the crowd".
As you probably know, you can put "Graphics" on the boom
tube fairly cheap.This sounds stupid at first, but I used to
have "National Geographic" - in big black letters - on my old Firestar's boom
tube - just to keep the shrimp boats and others from calling the FAA every
time we landed on a sand bar or other questionable LZs. Read that
"Just to keep me out of trouble" and it's probably illegal, immoral or
"somebody's having too much fun - so I should call the cops".
But you would be surprised how little things like that make people go from
being upset that your having so much fun - to being really interested in what
you are doing."Just stand right here next to the plane and we'll see if we
can get you in our next installment." I always got cameras strapped to my
head and in the plane anyway.I don't try to pretend to be Adriel Heisey
or anybody like that and I'm pretty sure that National Geographic is
mostly "Free Lance" anyway.In fact I've got a series of shots of the
Fla. State Patrol "posing" sitting in my plane after I had run out of
gas on the
way back from Fla. and had to land somewhere I shouldn't have. I'm sure
they were just hoping that their Mom's would see them in paper/mag next
month - if it got published (it didn't - but??).Heck who knows... I
have been in the
paper and TV a few times - but not the times I would have wanted.
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
Maybe "Homeland Security" would fit on a flat black MkIII ?
BB
do not archive
On 17, Sep 2009, at 9:11 PM, possums wrote:
> At 08:19 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Possums,
>>
>> What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ? The new plane looks
>> real nice, I like the little changes you made. Do you think the
>> sharp trailing edges lighten the control forces from the standard
>> round tube trailing edges we have ?
>>
>> Mike
>
> As far a the sharp trailing edges, they are standard GA stuff from
> AircraftSpruce.
> I just think they look cleaner than "Homer's" bumps. (Not there's
> anything
> wrong with the bumps) I don't think the edges do anything to the
> control forces,
> just "cosmetic" like I said before "so I could fit in with the crowd".
>
> As you probably know, you can put "Graphics" on the boom
> tube fairly cheap.This sounds stupid at first, but I used to
> have "National Geographic" - in big black letters - on my old
> Firestar's boom
> tube - just to keep the shrimp boats and others from calling the
> FAA every
> time we landed on a sand bar or other questionable LZs. Read that
> "Just to keep me out of trouble" and it's probably illegal,
> immoral or
> "somebody's having too much fun - so I should call the cops".
>
> But you would be surprised how little things like that make people
> go from
> being upset that your having so much fun - to being really
> interested in what
> you are doing."Just stand right here next to the plane and we'll
> see if we
> can get you in our next installment." I always got cameras strapped
> to my
> head and in the plane anyway.I don't try to pretend to be Adriel
> Heisey
> or anybody like that and I'm pretty sure that National Geographic is
> mostly "Free Lance" anyway.In fact I've got a series of shots of the
> Fla. State Patrol "posing" sitting in my plane after I had run out
> of gas on the
> way back from Fla. and had to land somewhere I shouldn't have. I'm
> sure
> they were just hoping that their Mom's would see them in paper/mag
> next
> month - if it got published (it didn't - but??).Heck who knows...
> I have been in the
> paper and TV a few times - but not the times I would have wanted.
>
>
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Mike
I'm not familiar with the MKIII tests, but I did look at the link that you posted.
Do I understand that the test wing had a constant airfoil out to a flat tip,
and later a new tip was added, extending the wingspan? And, was there an original
bowed, flat bottomed wing tip that also extended the wingspan, and was
tested, but gave higher stall than the shorter flat tip? I would have expected
the results that Jack mentioned, being lower stall with more wing span. The additional
"flat" bottom area on the original design is not actually a "no lift"
waste. It is an airfoil, although not a great one for sure, and would likely
generate a lot of drag to accompany the lift that it generates. Also, dosen't
the new wing have a different airfoil?
Malcolm Morrison
MKII
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:43:27 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vortex Generators
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:
>
>
> That flat three feet outboard may not generate lift, but it does show benefit
in that it pushes the tip vortex outward, increases wing aspect ratio which reduces
induced drag.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester,
Jack,
The wingtip vortex may be outward of the airfoil on the current design wing, but
it still flows around the tip, and hits the top of the wing. If you remember
John H Test flights of the factory MK III Xtra, its stall numbers were much lower
with pure wing out to the end of the aileron even though it had no tip at
all. The same span new Kolb wing without any span wasted on the useless flat
wingtips has more lift than the old Kolb wing, and LESS induced drag. The wing
with the current flat wingtips actually INCREASE induced drag because of all
the area wasted where there is no airfoil, the opposite of what you claim.
The tests have been done and the results are in... The new wing design on the factory
Kolb MK III Xtra stalls at a significantly lower airspeed with no wingtip
at all, The old design wing that we all have now has less lift due to wasting
several feet of its span, and has higher induced drag.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=41264
Kolb changed the design for a reason, its been tested, and proven. Some can theorize
and talk about how great the current wingtip is all they want, its not going
to change the facts.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
!!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263606#263606
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
At 09:30 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:
>Maybe "Homeland Security" would fit on a flat black MkIII ?
>BB
>do not archive
Now you're thinking "outside the box".... not like a FNG!
>do not archive - I keep forgetting to do that - sorry John.
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar |
>>>
>>>
>>>Possums did a mod to the ailerons on his Firestar, T
>
>
>I thought they changed the ailerons to the shorter ones on the
>Firestar anyway?
Lots of things!
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
At 05:43 PM 9/17/09 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Jack,
>
>The wingtip vortex may be outward of the airfoil on the current design
wing, but it still flows around the tip, and hits the top of the wing. If
you remember John H Test flights of the factory MK III Xtra, its stall
numbers were much lower with pure wing out to the end of the aileron even
though it had no tip at all. The same span new Kolb wing without any span
wasted on the useless flat wingtips has more lift than the old Kolb wing,
and LESS induced drag. The wing with the current flat wingtips actually
INCREASE induced drag because of all the area wasted where there is no
airfoil, the opposite of what you claim.
>
Mike,
Just for the record, every wing has a tip. With a wing being of constant
profile, it has a flat, non rounded tip. I agree that a constant profile
wing with a flat tip will generate more lift than the same length wing with
Homer's tip design. But the non rounded tip will suffer from flow
separation drag. Adding droop tips corrects this tendency and further
enhances aspect ratio and reduces induced drag. Rounding the tip will get
rid of the separation drag.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|