Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:40 AM - Re: Re: law suit after selling plane? ()
2. 06:05 AM - Re: plastic props & rain (Thom Riddle)
3. 06:44 AM - Incidence Angles (Thom Riddle)
4. 07:44 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (Mike Welch)
5. 08:18 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (Thom Riddle)
6. 08:25 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (Richard Girard)
7. 08:34 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (Jack B. Hart)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: plastic props & rain (zeprep251@aol.com)
9. 08:45 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (Thom Riddle)
10. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Incidence Angles (Richard Girard)
11. 08:59 AM - Re: plastic props & rain (Thom Riddle)
12. 09:43 AM - charging on 912 (jvanlaak@aol.com)
13. 10:09 AM - Re: charging on 912 (Richard Girard)
14. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: Incidence Angles (Jack B. Hart)
15. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Incidence Angles (pj.ladd)
16. 11:20 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (Thom Riddle)
17. 12:59 PM - Original Firestar Rebuild Photos (joepilot503)
18. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Incidence Angles (John Hauck)
19. 09:27 PM - Re: Incidence Angles (JetPilot)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: law suit after selling plane? |
Even better send it to New Zealand get good money for it and we do not
sue anyone.
Downunder
----- Original Message -----
From: Ellery Batchelder Jr
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: law suit after selling plane?
if You give it to me I promise not to launch a lawsuit on you
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: possums <possums@bellsouth.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: law suit after selling plane?
Guess I should just burn it then?
At 07:22 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>Possums wrote:
> >>
> > I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the
> > Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?
> > I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.
> >
>Here is what you have to understand. No variation, no document, no
>contract, in no way would ever work. The person that buys your >plane
may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details, >BUT.... The
person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the >rights of his
family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.
>
>Mike
>
>--------
>"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
>you could have !!!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: plastic props & rain |
Gary,
Oh THAT Akron. That puts us only about 200 statute miles apart, as the Kolb flies.
Sometime we should plan on meeting somewhere between us to check out each
other's Kolb. Which airport in Akron do you call home? I'm at KBQR.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267443#267443
Message 3
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| Subject: | Incidence Angles |
While I had my Warp Drive Protractor out measuring the new pitch of my TN prop
yesterday, I decided to see what the incidence angles were on my Slingshot out
of curiosity. I borrowed Jack Hart's drawing of his FireFly with incidence angles
shown and edited the numbers to correspond to what I measured on my Slingshot.
Image attached.
The Slingshot has a rather tall main gear so the root tube is angled up a lot more
than the short leg Kolbs when on the ground.
In my mind, the numbers worth noting are the Horizontal Stabilizer angle is the
same as the Root Tube. If at cruise speed the HS is even with the relative wind,
then the wing bottoms are at about 7 degrees AOA and the engine centerline
is pointing UP about 3 1/2 degrees from relative wind.
If my assumption is wrong about the HS being level at my normal cruise airspeed
then this would be wrong. Since it is supposed to provide a small down force
at the tail, it is probably pointing down a little bit during cruise flight. In
any case, the difference in incidence between the wing and HS is 7 degrees which
seems like a lot to me.
I'd like to hear from others about these angles on their Kolbs. Especially from
the few other Slingshot flyers on the list, but others as well.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267445#267445
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/thomssangles_147.jpg
Message 4
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| Subject: | Incidence Angles |
> In my mind=2C the numbers worth noting are the Horizontal Stabilizer angl
e is the same as the Root Tube. If at cruise speed the HS is even with the
relative wind=2C then the wing bottoms are at about 7 degrees AOA and the e
ngine centerline is pointing UP about 3 1/2 degrees from relative wind.
>
> If my assumption is wrong about the HS being level at my normal cruise ai
rspeed then this would be wrong. Since it is supposed to provide a small do
wn force at the tail=2C it is probably pointing down a little bit during cr
uise flight. In any case=2C the difference in incidence between the wing an
d HS is 7 degrees which seems like a lot to me.
>
> I'd like to hear from others about these angles on their Kolbs. Especiall
y from the few other Slingshot flyers on the list=2C but others as well.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo=2C NY
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x31
Thom=2C
I have done quite a bit of research on the Kolb MkIII wing's incidence an
gles=2C (and have a data table of results)=2C since I am having to change t
he incidence from the Classic angle to the Xtra angle (since my MkIII has u
ndergone a rather complete transformation from starting out as a Classic to
now being an Xtra).
Yes=2C believe it or not=2C 7 degrees incidence =2C in level flightseems
to be pretty close to what my research has shown. 7 degrees incidence soun
ds like a lot=2C and frankly=2C I think it is=2C but it must be what Homer
had intended. Evidently=2C a high incidence wing angle gives the performan
ce that the Kolb are known for.
I do know of at least one individual who is considering lowering the inci
dence on his MkIIIC.
Mike Welch
MkIII
=0A
_________________________________________________________________=0A
Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Mike,
I was not surprised at the approx. 7 degrees AOA (wing vs relative wind) which
varies with airspeed. The higher the airspeed the lower the AOA and vice versa.
What I was surprised at is the decalage, i.e., the difference in incidence angles
between the wings and the horizontal stabilizer. Attached is Jack Hart's drawing
of his FireFly which shows a decalage of only 2 degrees, 11 (wing) minus
9 (HS).
I was also surprised to see the major difference in thrust lines relative to wing
incidence. Note that on Jack's FireFly, at least at the time of this drawing,
shows his thrust centerline to pointing down relative to the wing bottom with
a negative difference of about 5 1/2 degrees. My SS thrust line is pointing
up relative to the wing bottom by a positive 3 1/2 degrees.
I know these airplanes are different in many ways but these incidence and thrust-line
differences are pretty major, which is what prompted my query about other
Kolber's incidence angles. I've not looked at the SS plans to see what they
call for but suspect mine is pretty close to plans and it handles very well.
But I'm curious if any other Kolbs have this sort of incidence and thrust-line
relationship.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267456#267456
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fffside_138.jpg
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Guys, Let's get back to basics before people start changing angles of
incidence. There's a reason for that 7 degrees. The Kolb flies at about 9
degrees angle of attack. You might remember that number from the factory
recommendation for weight and balance measurement. Do the math for the
amount of lift needed at whatever you consider your cruise speed. You know,
dynamic pressure X wing area X lift coefficient. What you find is that the
lift coefficient that works out is in the 8 to 9 degree AOA range.
So what you end up with is less trim drag when flying at cruise when the AOI
is set at something near the AOA required for cruise. Lower the angle of
incidence and now the fuselage flies at a higher angle of attack in cruise
flight and produces more drag, Then there's the lift needed by the
horizontal stabilizer to hold the wing at that higher AOA (compared to AOI),
net result more trim drag.
Of course this is experimental aviation and you can do whatever experiment
you like to validate Homer's calculations, but I think you'll find he was
right on the money.
MHO with Beauford's maxim.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In my mind, the numbers worth noting are the Horizontal Stabilizer angle
> is the same as the Root Tube. If at cruise speed the HS is even with the
> relative wind, then the wing bottoms are at about 7 degrees AOA and the
> engine centerline is pointing UP about 3 1/2 degrees from relative wind.
> >
> > If my assumption is wrong about the HS being level at my normal cruise
> airspeed then this would be wrong. Since it is supposed to provide a small
> down force at the tail, it is probably pointing down a little bit during
> cruise flight. In any case, the difference in incidence between the wing and
> HS is 7 degrees which seems like a lot to me.
> >
> > I'd like to hear from others about these angles on their Kolbs.
> Especially from the few other Slingshot flyers on the list, but others as
> well.
> >
> > --------
> > Thom Riddle
> > Buffalo, NY
> > Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> > Jabiru 2200A #1574
> > Tennessee Prop 64x31
>
>
> Thom,
>
> I have done quite a bit of research on the Kolb MkIII wing's incidence
> angles, (and have a data table of results), since I am having to change the
> incidence from the Classic angle to the Xtra angle (since my MkIII has
> undergone a rather complete transformation from starting out as a Classic to
> now being an Xtra).
>
> Yes, believe it or not, 7 degrees incidence , in level flightseems to be
> pretty close to what my research has shown. 7 degrees incidence sounds like
> a lot, and frankly, I think it is, but it must be what Homer had intended.
> Evidently, a high incidence wing angle gives the performance that the Kolb
> are known for.
>
> I do know of at least one individual who is considering lowering the
> incidence on his MkIIIC.
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich etarget='_new'>Get it now.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
At 06:44 AM 10/11/09 -0700, you wrote:
>
>In my mind, the numbers worth noting are the Horizontal Stabilizer angle is
the same as the Root Tube. If at cruise speed the HS is even with the
relative wind, then the wing bottoms are at about 7 degrees AOA and the
engine centerline is pointing UP about 3 1/2 degrees from relative wind.
>
>If my assumption is wrong about the HS being level at my normal cruise
airspeed then this would be wrong. Since it is supposed to provide a small
down force at the tail, it is probably pointing down a little bit during
cruise flight. In any case, the difference in incidence between the wing and
HS is 7 degrees which seems like a lot to me.
>
Thom,
What is your slip indicator doing at cruise? Is the ball centered?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: plastic props & rain |
Thom,
Home is 1D4,5miles north of CAK under the 5 mile ring.I'm up for that trip.Have
to ask John if duct tape will hold a prop to the fuselage tube for 100 miles?
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: Thom Riddle <riddletr@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 9:04 am
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: plastic props & rain
Gary,
Oh THAT Akron. That puts us only about 200 statute miles apart, as the Kolb
flies. Sometime we should plan on meeting somewhere between us to check out each
other's Kolb. Which airport in Akron do you call home? I'm at KBQR.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple
system that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267443#267443
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Jack,
My slip indicator is a yaw string and it is centered with feet off the rudders
at my normal cruise speed. The rudder trim tab is bent only very slightly to the
left, giving a little right rudder to accomplish this.
The ailerons do not have trim tabs but the left aileron actuating rod is extended
a lot further than the right one to give wings level flight with no apparent
force on the stick. But the ailerons appear to be in alignment with the bottom
of the wings with stick neutral.
I have electric elevator trim and it flies with the trim indicator near center
at normal cruise. What I have not looked at is the angle of trim tab with respect
to the elevator when in neutral indicator position. I'll check then next time
I am at the airplane.
I'm not very concerned about the difference in incidence of the HS and wings but
am very curious about the thrust line difference. When I go to the airport next
time I'll fetch the plans and see what was called for.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267470#267470
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
To carry on the discussion, the engine is set at a different angle to offset
that other airfoil characteristic, the pitching moment. The wing wants to
tumble AOTK (a** over tea kettle), the engine driving forward through a
lesser angle counters this and once again, reduces trim drag.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jack,
>
> My slip indicator is a yaw string and it is centered with feet off the
> rudders at my normal cruise speed. The rudder trim tab is bent only very
> slightly to the left, giving a little right rudder to accomplish this.
>
> The ailerons do not have trim tabs but the left aileron actuating rod is
> extended a lot further than the right one to give wings level flight with no
> apparent force on the stick. But the ailerons appear to be in alignment with
> the bottom of the wings with stick neutral.
>
> I have electric elevator trim and it flies with the trim indicator near
> center at normal cruise. What I have not looked at is the angle of trim tab
> with respect to the elevator when in neutral indicator position. I'll check
> then next time I am at the airplane.
>
> I'm not very concerned about the difference in incidence of the HS and
> wings but am very curious about the thrust line difference. When I go to the
> airport next time I'll fetch the plans and see what was called for.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x31
>
> A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
> simple system that works.
> - John Gaule
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267470#267470
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: plastic props & rain |
Gary,
Airnav has your airport (1D4) in their database but it is not actually shown on
the sectional but it is shown on the Cleveland TAC.
Let's remember to plan a meeting trip sometime. I'd send this off-line but you
are logged on as a guest so I can't send a PM to you.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267473#267473
Message 12
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Folks,
After months of looking for a good MkIIIX I ended up with a 912 powered?Rans S7
Courier.? Although not a Kolb, it is actually a very nice plane with?very good?performance.?
With VGs it takes off in 150 feet no wind and climbs at 1200 fpm.?
Approach at 40 with a landing at 30.? Cruise is 110 at high cruise, but running
around at 80 mph is?only about 3.5 gph.? Wings will fold but it would take
more than an hour, and it does not have the Kolb visibility.? On the other
hand, both doors open in flight.? Nice enough for now.
I hope nobody minds if I pulse the experience of this group to ask about troubleshooting
the charging circuit on the 912.? It has only the built in charging
circuit (no external alternator) and has suddenly quit charging.? It was intermittent
for a while but has decided to take a vacation.? I spent the morning checking
all conections secure and doing the other routine things.? The ammeter
was not very useful so I added a voltmeter when I bought it which clearly shows
when it is charging and when not.? Even with all loads off it still is not
charging at all (voltage just under 12).? When it was charging it would show about
13.5 volts no load.
I am thinking the regulator is the most likely item to change out.? Any other ideas??
What is the cheapest source?
Thanks
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: plastic props & rain
?
> I don't intentionally fly through rain showers but sometimes it is unavoidable.
I expect the current prop finish with leading edge inlay to survive the rain
better than the poorly bonded plastic that was on it before.?
>?
> --------?
> Thom Riddle?
?
How do you get the bugs off the windshield and leading edges of everything??
?
I hit the nearest rain shower to do the job for me.?
?
?
john h?
mkIII?
Monument Valley, Utah ?
?
?
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
John, Have you checked both sides of the regulator for AC voltage. Input S/B
AC, output should not (there may be a little as the diodes in the regulator
may leak a little, but it should be very little). Grounds, checked all? Do
you have the big capacitor on the regulator output? Take it out and see if
things improve. The Aeroelectric forum here on the Matronics lists is
another very good source of diagnostic help.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 11:37 AM, <jvanlaak@aol.com> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> After months of looking for a good MkIIIX I ended up with a 912
> powered Rans S7 Courier. Although not a Kolb, it is actually a very nice
> plane with very good performance. With VGs it takes off in 150 feet no wind
> and climbs at 1200 fpm. Approach at 40 with a landing at 30. Cruise is 110
> at high cruise, but running around at 80 mph is only about 3.5 gph. Wings
> will fold but it would take more than an hour, and it does not have the Kolb
> visibility. On the other hand, both doors open in flight. Nice enough for
> now.
>
> I hope nobody minds if I pulse the experience of this group to ask about
> troubleshooting the charging circuit on the 912. It has only the built in
> charging circuit (no external alternator) and has suddenly quit charging.
> It was intermittent for a while but has decided to take a vacation. I spent
> the morning checking all conections secure and doing the other routine
> things. The ammeter was not very useful so I added a voltmeter when I
> bought it which clearly shows when it is charging and when not. Even with
> all loads off it still is not charging at all (voltage just under 12). When
> it was charging it would show about 13.5 volts no load.
>
> I am thinking the regulator is the most likely item to change out. Any
> other ideas? What is the cheapest source?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 5:25 pm
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: plastic props & rain
>
>
> > I don't intentionally fly through rain showers but sometimes it is
> unavoidable. I expect the current prop finish with leading edge inlay to
> survive the rain better than the poorly bonded plastic that was on it
> before.
> >
> > --------
> > Thom Riddle
>
> How do you get the bugs off the windshield and leading edges of
> everything?
>
> I hit the nearest rain shower to do the job for me.
>
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Monument Valley, Utah
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Thom,
Been thinking about this a little more. I lowered my thrust line by
rotating the belt reduction unit on the Victor 1+. By doing so, I believe,
it moved the thrust line closer to the center of drag. This in turn reduced
stabilizer and wing loading for the same cruise speed.
See:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly101.html
We seem to have the same angle difference between the wing and the
horizontal stabilizer. But where I am trimmed for cruise at 50-55 mphi, and
max weight of 500 pounds, you are banging along at greater speed, weight and
thrust, with a higher thrust line and working the wing much harder than the
FireFly. I don't believe a FireFly comparison is valid. I believe your
best hope is to find another SlingShot owner.
I tried a string as a slip indicator, and then I tried a ball. I like the
ball. I still use the string, but only as a taxi out and in cross wind
indicator.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
My slip indicator is a yaw string and it is centered with feet off the
rudders at my normal cruise speed. The rudder trim tab is bent only very
slightly to the left, giving a little right rudder to accomplish this.
Mine too on my Xtra but the rudder trim is a length of door draught
excluder.stuck to the trailing edge The sort with a flat section and a small
tube on one edge.
Pat
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Jack,
I agree that the only things our airplanes have similar other than being Kolbs,
is that the wings are similar in size so the comparison is probably not a good
one. But yours is the only one I have data on to compare too, not to mention
your drawing also being available for me to copy :-).
On the ground my wing bottoms are at 12 degrees and horizontal stabilizer is at
5 degrees which is a difference of 7 degrees. That is a lot of decalage, compared
to yours which is 2 degrees (11 minus 9). Yours is similar to most aircraft
that I'm familiar with. As you know the more decalage there is the more longitudinal
stability if all else is constant. The Slingshot is pretty short coupled,
so that relatively short arm that the horizontal stabilizer is working with
may require that much extra decalage. I'll know when I check the plans, if
that is close to what was intended. I expect it is about right because the builder
was something of a perfectionist, much to my benefit.
As you noted, your thrust line is much lower than mine and perhaps the major difference
in thrust angle is also required for that high engine centerline, which
I'll also measure on next trip to airport.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Original Firestar Rebuild Photos |
I have been reading the forum for years and gathered alot of info from it. I finally registered to the forum. I bought an original 5 rib Firestar in June 2003. Thought I would share some photos of it. In 07 the throttle cable kinked at the lever while taxiing and turning to line up on runway and was stuck about 5000 rpm, ended up going into the trees before I was able to kill it, tore the gear off. Anyway I decided to restore and customize it a bit. Here is a link to my site if your interested www.brianskolbfirestar.comlu.com
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
> The ailerons do not have trim tabs but the left aileron actuating rod is
extended a lot further than the right one to give wings level flight with no
apparent force on the stick. But the ailerons appear to be in alignment with
the bottom of the wings with stick neutral.
>
> Thom Riddle
Thom R/Gang:
Adjusting length of aileron push/pull tube(s) does a couple things:
a. Changes the position of the control stick when the ailerons load up and
equalize in flight.
b. Increases or decreases droop/reflex.
What it doesn't do is change roll trim.
john h
mkIII
Blanding, UT
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Thom R/Gang:
>
> Adjusting length of aileron push/pull tube(s) does a couple things:
>
> a. Changes the position of the control stick when the ailerons load up and
> equalize in flight.
>
> b. Increases or decreases droop/reflex.
>
> What it doesn't do is change roll trim.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Blanding, UT
John is correct, changing the length of those tubes will have no effect on Roll
trim. It will change where the stick physically centers when flying...
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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