Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:55 AM - Re: charging on 912 (John Bickham)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: charging on 912 (jvanlaak@AOL.COM)
3. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: charging on 912 (Richard Girard)
4. 06:52 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (russ kinne)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: Incidence Angles (robert bean)
6. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: charging on 912 (b young)
7. 09:07 AM - Re: charging on 912 (John Bickham)
8. 10:25 AM - Re: charging on 912 (dalewhelan)
9. 11:33 AM - MKIII Weight and Balance and feel of the airplane (Jason Omelchuck)
10. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: charging on 912 (jvanlaak@aol.com)
11. 02:26 PM - Re: MKIII Weight and Balance and feel of the airplane (possums)
12. 04:55 PM - Re: Original Firestar Rebuild Photos (Eugene Zimmerman)
13. 05:19 PM - Re: Original Firestar Rebuild Photos (Richard Girard)
14. 05:20 PM - Re: Incidence Angles (Jack B. Hart)
15. 05:38 PM - Re: Incidence Angles (Thom Riddle)
16. 08:41 PM - Angle measurements (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
I defer to the electricians in the group. I'll just throw these two things out
for you to consider if all else fails.
1) How old is your engine? There was a Service Bulletin and stator replacement
program for 912's around 2004. You could check the ROAN site and cross reference
your engine serial number to see if it fell in that group.
2) This one is based on my personal experience. Correct wire gauge and good connections
are critical. I originally installed what I thought was the correct
wire size (not good with metric) and my system never charged. I didn't know
I had a problem till the first time I flew with John H, John W, Gary H, and Steven
G. They were running all kind of gadgets off their systems. Got home from
the trip to Kitty Hawk and TNK and change out the wire to a heavier gauge and
suddenly every thing started working. I got gadgets running now! So a bad
wire or loose connection that would increase resistance can be a problem for
this system.
Good luck.
--------
Thanks too much,
John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA
I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that
I have the greatest respect for.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267543#267543
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
Thanks to all who commented.
John, the builder did fine on the airframe but wiring is not his strong suit.?
I am in fact rewiring much of the plane not so much because the wire is too small
as the lengths are too long and there are too many splices.? Shorter, cleaner
wires should help.
The engine is a 2000 model and the builder seems to be up to date on service bulletins
but I will check again.? The plane was charging OK but now is not charging
at all.? Even when it was it was marginal with the strobes on.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: John Bickham <gearbender@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 5:54 am
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: charging on 912
I defer to the electricians in the group. I'll just throw these two things out
for you to consider if all else fails.
1) How old is your engine? There was a Service Bulletin and stator replacement
program for 912's around 2004. You could check the ROAN site and cross
reference your engine serial number to see if it fell in that group.
2) This one is based on my personal experience. Correct wire gauge and good
connections are critical. I originally installed what I thought was the correct
wire size (not good with metric) and my system never charged. I didn't know I
had a problem till the first time I flew with John H, John W, Gary H, and Steven
G. They were running all kind of gadgets off their systems. Got home from the
trip to Kitty Hawk and TNK and change out the wire to a heavier gauge and
suddenly every thing started working. I got gadgets running now! So a bad wire
or loose connection that would increase resistance can be a problem for this
system.
Good luck.
--------
Thanks too much,
John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA
I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that
I have the greatest respect for.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267543#267543
Contribution Web Site -
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:31 AM, <jvanlaak@aol.com> wrote:
> Thanks to all who commented.
>
> John, the builder did fine on the airframe but wiring is not his strong
> suit. I am in fact rewiring much of the plane not so much because the wire
> is too small as the lengths are too long and there are too many splices.
> Shorter, cleaner wires should help.
>
> The engine is a 2000 model and the builder seems to be up to date on
> service bulletins but I will check again. The plane was charging OK but now
> is not charging at all. Even when it was it was marginal with the strobes
> on.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Bickham <gearbender@bellsouth.net>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 5:54 am
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: charging on 912
>
>
> I defer to the electricians in the group. I'll just throw these two things out
> for you to consider if all else fails.
>
> 1) How old is your engine? There was a Service Bulletin and stator replacement
> program for 912's around 2004. You could check the ROAN site and cross
> reference your engine serial number to see if it fell in that group.
>
> 2) This one is based on my personal experience. Correct wire gauge and good
> connections are critical. I originally installed what I thought was the correct
> wire size (not good with metric) and my system never charged. I didn't know
I
> had a problem till the first time I flew with John H, John W, Gary H, and Steven
> G. They were running all kind of gadgets off their systems. Got home from the
> trip to Kitty Hawk and TNK and change out the wire to a heavier gauge and
> suddenly every thing started working. I got gadgets running now! So a bad wire
> or loose connection that would increase resistance can be a problem for this
> system.
>
> Good luck.
>
> --------
> Thanks too much,
>
> John Bickham
> Mark III-C w/ 912UL
> St. Francisville, LA
>
> I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that
> I have the greatest respect for.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267543#267543
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Thom
Interesting discussion about AOL's of HS & wing. But I wonder if the
boom tube of a Kolb in level flight is absolutely horizontal? Anyone
have a good picture of a Kolb in flight with the horizon behind it?
Russ
do not archive
On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
> > In my mind, the numbers worth noting are the Horizontal
> Stabilizer angle is the same as the Root Tube. If at cruise speed
> the HS is even with the relative wind, then the wing bottoms are at
> about 7 degrees AOA and the engine centerline is pointing UP about
> 3 1/2 degrees from relative wind.
> >
> > If my assumption is wrong about the HS being level at my normal
> cruise airspeed then this would be wrong. Since it is supposed to
> provide a small down force at the tail, it is probably pointing
> down a little bit during cruise flight. In any case, the difference
> in incidence between the wing and HS is 7 degrees which seems like
> a lot to me.
> >
> > I'd like to hear from others about these angles on their Kolbs.
> Especially from the few other Slingshot flyers on the list, but
> others as well.
> >
> > --------
> > Thom Riddle
> > Buffalo, NY
> > Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> > Jabiru 2200A #1574
> > Tennessee Prop 64x31
>
>
> Thom,
>
> I have done quite a bit of research on the Kolb MkIII wing's
> incidence angles, (and have a data table of results), since I am
> having to change the incidence from the Classic angle to the Xtra
> angle (since my MkIII has undergone a rather complete
> transformation from starting out as a Classic to now being an Xtra).
>
> Yes, believe it or not, 7 degrees incidence , in level
> flightseems to be pretty close to what my research has shown. 7
> degrees incidence sounds like a lot, and frankly, I think it is,
> but it must be what Homer had intended. Evidently, a high
> incidence wing angle gives the performance that the Kolb are known
> for.
>
> I do know of at least one individual who is considering lowering
> the incidence on his MkIIIC.
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich etarget='_new'>Get it now.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Russ, we've been through that point way in the past. -including
inflight pix.
Most Kolbs, especially the MkIII, fly tail high. A lesser incidence
on the wing, like the SS and the Xtra,
will reduce the boom tilt
BB
On 12, Oct 2009, at 9:52 AM, russ kinne wrote:
> Thom
> Interesting discussion about AOL's of HS & wing. But I wonder if the
> boom tube of a Kolb in level flight is absolutely horizontal?
> Anyone have a good picture of a Kolb in flight with the horizon
> behind it?
> Russ
> do not archive
>
> On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
>
>> > In my mind, the numbers worth noting are the Horizontal
>> Stabilizer angle is the same as the Root Tube. If at cruise speed
>> the HS is even with the relative wind, then the wing bottoms are at
>> about 7 degrees AOA and the engine centerline is pointing UP about
>> 3 1/2 degrees from relative wind.
>> >
>> > If my assumption is wrong about the HS being level at my normal
>> cruise airspeed then this would be wrong. Since it is supposed to
>> provide a small down force at the tail, it is probably pointing
>> down a little bit during cruise flight. In any case, the difference
>> in incidence between the wing and HS is 7 degrees which seems like
>> a lot to me.
>> >
>> > I'd like to hear from others about these angles on their Kolbs.
>> Especially from the few other Slingshot flyers on the list, but
>> others as well.
>> >
>> > --------
>> > Thom Riddle
>> > Buffalo, NY
>> > Kolb Slingshot SS-021
>> > Jabiru 2200A #1574
>> > Tennessee Prop 64x31
>>
>>
>> Thom,
>>
>> I have done quite a bit of research on the Kolb MkIII wing's
>> incidence angles, (and have a data table of results), since I am
>> having to change the incidence from the Classic angle to the Xtra
>> angle (since my MkIII has undergone a rather complete
>> transformation from starting out as a Classic to now being an Xtra).
>>
>> Yes, believe it or not, 7 degrees incidence , in level
>> flightseems to be pretty close to what my research has shown. 7
>> degrees incidence sounds like a lot, and frankly, I think it is,
>> but it must be what Homer had intended. Evidently, a high
>> incidence wing angle gives the performance that the Kolb are known
>> for.
>>
>> I do know of at least one individual who is considering lowering
>> the incidence on his MkIIIC.
>>
>> Mike Welch
>> MkIII
>>
>>
>>
>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich etarget='_new'>Get it now.
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
>> www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
If the charging is marginal with the strobes.. How much power do they
pull? How much power do the other gadgets pull? How much power does the
engine produce? It may be that you are using all that the generator can
produce.
Boyd Young
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The engine is a 2000 model and the builder seems to be up to date on service
bulletins but I will check again. The plane was charging OK but now is not
charging at all. Even when it was it was marginal with the strobes on.
Jim
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
Sorry I was wrong.
The Service Bullentin for the stator replacement was SB-912-02UL. It was issued
December, 1999.
I loose track of time and even reality sometimes!
--------
Thanks too much,
John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA
I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that
I have the greatest respect for.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267589#267589
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
You have 3 components in the charge system.
Here is a basic way to get close to the problem.
Run the plane, if the regulator get warm the stator is likely good.
If the regulator is cold the stator is likely bad.
Get a headlight from a car or motorcycle, connect high to one stator ac lead and
low to another ac lead, do not use the bulbs ground. Stator should light the
bulb, if you rev the motor you will need another bulb.
A weak battery can damage your charging system.
I like amp meters but if you do a voltage drop on a battery cable and then start
the motor, you will see the voltage reading change polarity on a working system
regardless of battery condition.
If you want more technical answers than what I have given you you can send me a
message and I will spare others the headache.
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267596#267596
Message 9
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| Subject: | MKIII Weight and Balance and feel of the airplane |
Well I am just wrapping up my 40 hour fly off with the new engine and I finally
got around to testing the aft CG limit I have set. I have set my forward limit
at 16.5" and the aft limit at 23.5" (datum is the LE of the wing). I chose
these limits as they have been used and tested in MKIII's before. I reach gross
weight before I reach the forward limit. To test fly at the aft limit I set,
I strapped 10# of lead to the tail wheel strut. It was either that or find
a person lighter than me to fly it. I must say that I liked the way the plane
felt at the aft CG of 23.5". It was lighter in roll and still did not have
any trouble keeping straight and level in cruise. I only have about 60 hours
in a Kolb, and am by no means an experienced test pilot, but I just thought it
was interesting how it lightened up the controls at the aft CG. I am not going
to test any further aft than 23.5" as I am not that brave (or experienced)
but I would be interested if there are any real test pilots out there in Kolb
land who have actually tested the aft CG to its limits of stall recovery or stability.
Jason
MKIII Yamaha powered
Portland, OR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267608#267608
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: charging on 912 |
Thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: dalewhelan <dalewhelan@earthlink.net>
Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 1:25 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: charging on 912
You have 3 components in the charge system.
Here is a basic way to get close to the problem.
Run the plane, if the regulator get warm the stator is likely good.
If the regulator is cold the stator is likely bad.
Get a headlight from a car or motorcycle, connect high to one stator ac lead and
low to another ac lead, do not use the bulbs ground. Stator should light the
bulb, if you rev the motor you will need another bulb.
A weak battery can damage your charging system.
I like amp meters but if you do a voltage drop on a battery cable and then start
the motor, you will see the voltage reading change polarity on a working system
regardless of battery condition.
If you want more technical answers than what I have given you you can send me a
message and I will spare others the headache.
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267596#267596
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: MKIII Weight and Balance and feel of the airplane |
I don't know what the limits are, but they sure are a lot more fun to
fly the further aft you get the CG.
Maybe John H knows - he keeps adding things (like 10 lb tail wheels) to his?
At 02:33 PM 10/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>Well I am just wrapping up my 40 hour fly off with the new engine
>and I finally got around to testing the aft CG limit I have set. I
>have set my forward limit at 16.5" and the aft limit at 23.5" (datum
>is the LE of the wing). I chose these limits as they have been
>......It was lighter in roll and still did not have any trouble
>keeping straight and level in cruise. I only have about 60 hours in
>a Kolb, and am by no means an experienced test pilot, but I just
>thought it was interesting how it lightened up the controls at the
>aft CG. I am not going to test any further aft than 23.5" as I am
>not that brave (or experienced) but I would be interested if there
>are any real tes!
> t pilots out there in Kolb land who have actually tested the aft
> CG to its limits of stall recovery or stability.
>
>Jason
>MKIII Yamaha powered
>Portland, OR
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar Rebuild Photos |
Joe,
Beautiful plane.
Very nice rebuild job. Workmanship looks great. Excellent
modifications.
Thanks for sharing your website picts.
Gene Zimmerman
On Oct 11, 2009, at 3:58 PM, joepilot503 wrote:
> >
>
> I have been reading the forum for years and gathered alot of info
> from it. I finally registered to the forum. I bought an original 5
> rib Firestar in June 2003. Thought I would share some photos of
> it. In 07 the throttle cable kinked at the lever while taxiing and
> turning to line up on runway and was stuck about 5000 rpm, ended up
> going into the trees before I was able to kill it, tore the gear
> off. Anyway I decided to restore and customize it a bit. Here is a
> link to my site if your interested www.brianskolbfirestar.comlu.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267504#267504
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar Rebuild Photos |
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Beautiful plane.
> Very nice rebuild job. Workmanship looks great. Excellent modifications.
> Thanks for sharing your website picts.
>
> Gene Zimmerman
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2009, at 3:58 PM, joepilot503 wrote:
>
>>
>> I have been reading the forum for years and gathered alot of info from it.
>> I finally registered to the forum. I bought an original 5 rib Firestar in
>> June 2003. Thought I would share some photos of it. In 07 the throttle
>> cable kinked at the lever while taxiing and turning to line up on runway and
>> was stuck about 5000 rpm, ended up going into the trees before I was able to
>> kill it, tore the gear off. Anyway I decided to restore and customize it a
>> bit. Here is a link to my site if your interested
>> www.brianskolbfirestar.comlu.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267504#267504
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
From: russ kinne <russkinne@mac.com>
>
Thom
Interesting discussion about AOL's of HS & wing. But I wonder if the boom
tube of a Kolb in level flight is absolutely horizontal? Anyone have a good
picture of a Kolb in flight with the horizon behind
it?
>
Russ,
I checked the FireFly out with a AOA meter. At cruise the tail boom tube
would be 4.5 degrees up.
I have some photos that help but none with the horizon. The first is a
ground effect fly by at:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly87.html
Then there are several low level flight photos that were taken from the
ground at:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly137.html
If you click on the photos they will enlarge. It is difficult to judge from
these photos if the tail boom 4.5 degrees up, but it would be difficult to
say that it is not up 4.5 degrees too.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Jack,
If your tail boom is inclined 4.5 degrees up at the tail end during cruise that
means your nose rotates down about 6 degrees from 3-point and gives a cruise
wing AOA of 5 degrees, which is pretty close to cruise AOA of lots of airplanes,
and the HS AOA of about 3 degrees positive. Useful and interesting information.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267677#267677
Message 16
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| Subject: | Angle measurements |
Couldn't sleep so I went to the hangar and set Zulu Delta up with horizontal
stab level.
- Boom tube 4.5 degrees up toward aft
- Wing bottom 7 degrees
- Engine tube 5 degrees down toward aft
Hope this helps
Rick Girard
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