Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:37 AM - Re: Brad Stump (JetPilot)
2. 09:03 AM - Re: Crash Photos (pj.ladd)
3. 03:45 PM - Re: Crash Photos (jerb)
4. 06:28 PM - Re: Crash Photos (russ kinne)
5. 06:57 PM - Re: Crash Photos (George Myers)
6. 08:20 PM - Re: Crash Photos (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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Steamin,
Thanks for taking the time to come here and add some information about this accident.
Its always sad to see something like this happen, hopefully others can
learn from this and prevent repeats in the future. After reading the report
from Brads accident, if I ever need my BRS, I will be much more likely to remember
the entanglement issue after and make sure my engine is completely stopped.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268407#268407
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Crash Photos |
Maybe during the taxi he got airborne a little >>
Wow, just seen the pics. it looks as though he got airborne a lot. Nose
pushed back level with the leading edge. Wings broken free from the root
fixings at least and smashed back past the leading edge. A hell of a
wack to break a fuselage and bend the tail forward like that. No damage
to the undercart. I will go with the hypothesis that he was coming down
almost vertically when he hit. I think the undamaged u/c is the
clincher. Flatter and the u/c would have spread. A bit steeper and the
wheels would have been knocked backwards.
Just my five penn`orth (sorry, cents)
Past
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Crash Photos |
Russ, you may be right about flipping over backwards but the straight
down look of the impact makes me wonder more if he didn't get
airborne, then panicked and pushed the nose down.
jerb
At 02:48 PM 10/16/2009, you wrote:
>
>Dare I suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect
>he had the stick full BACK while taxiing downwind, the wind got
>under the elevators and flipped him upside-down.
>The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when
>tied down, for that matter.
>Don't they teach basics any more??? Or didn't he ever get any
>instruction from a CFI?
>Sorry to see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I
>think a Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.
>Poor piloting technique, IMHO
>Russ K
>do not archive
>
>On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>
>><jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>>
>>Kolbers,
>>
>>I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something
>>that
>>happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more
>>about it.
>>Usually, I do not find much more informantion. A few days ago, I
>>found a
>>report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana. I
>>Googled and
>>found the following site. It was not a FireFly, but the photos were
>>interesting.
>>
>>It can be seen at:
>>
>>http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/
>>man_injured_following_plane_cr.php
>>
>>Wet and cold.
>>
>>Jack B. Hart FF004
>>Winchester, IN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Crash Photos |
Jerb, I never meant he flipped over backwards; it's pretty obvious he
went over forwards.
Judging from the gear condition, I think others listers are right in
thinking he got airborne, maybe only 10-15', and nosed it in. If he
got into the air, panicked and shoved the stick forward to get back
on the ground immediately, this could easily result.
Bottom line, IMHO, is still lack of training/instruction.
Russ K
do not archive
On Oct 18, 2009, at 8:15 PM, jerb wrote:
>
> Russ, you may be right about flipping over backwards but the
> straight down look of the impact makes me wonder more if he didn't
> get airborne, then panicked and pushed the nose down.
> jerb
>
>
> At 02:48 PM 10/16/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Dare I suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect
>> he had the stick full BACK while taxiing downwind, the wind got
>> under the elevators and flipped him upside-down.
>> The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when
>> tied down, for that matter.
>> Don't they teach basics any more??? Or didn't he ever get any
>> instruction from a CFI?
>> Sorry to see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I
>> think a Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.
>> Poor piloting technique, IMHO
>> Russ K
>> do not archive
>>
>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>>
>>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>>>
>>> Kolbers,
>>>
>>> I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something
>>> that
>>> happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more
>>> about it.
>>> Usually, I do not find much more informantion. A few days ago, I
>>> found a
>>> report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana. I
>>> Googled and
>>> found the following site. It was not a FireFly, but the photos were
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>> It can be seen at:
>>>
>>> http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/
>>> man_injured_following_plane_cr.php
>>>
>>> Wet and cold.
>>>
>>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>>> Winchester, IN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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Maybe he did a 'Crow Flop'.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of russ kinne
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Crash Photos
Jerb, I never meant he flipped over backwards; it's pretty obvious he
went over forwards.
Judging from the gear condition, I think others listers are right in
thinking he got airborne, maybe only 10-15', and nosed it in. If he
got into the air, panicked and shoved the stick forward to get back
on the ground immediately, this could easily result.
Bottom line, IMHO, is still lack of training/instruction.
Russ K
do not archive
On Oct 18, 2009, at 8:15 PM, jerb wrote:
>
> Russ, you may be right about flipping over backwards but the
> straight down look of the impact makes me wonder more if he didn't
> get airborne, then panicked and pushed the nose down.
> jerb
>
>
> At 02:48 PM 10/16/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Dare I suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect
>> he had the stick full BACK while taxiing downwind, the wind got
>> under the elevators and flipped him upside-down.
>> The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when
>> tied down, for that matter.
>> Don't they teach basics any more??? Or didn't he ever get any
>> instruction from a CFI?
>> Sorry to see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I
>> think a Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.
>> Poor piloting technique, IMHO
>> Russ K
>> do not archive
>>
>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>>
>>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>>>
>>> Kolbers,
>>>
>>> I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something
>>> that
>>> happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more
>>> about it.
>>> Usually, I do not find much more informantion. A few days ago, I
>>> found a
>>> report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana. I
>>> Googled and
>>> found the following site. It was not a FireFly, but the photos were
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>> It can be seen at:
>>>
>>> http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/
>>> man_injured_following_plane_cr.php
>>>
>>> Wet and cold.
>>>
>>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>>> Winchester, IN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Crash Photos |
I'm not an accident investigator, but you guys got me interested. The
trouble I have with the dive it into the dirt theory is I don't think it's
possible to dive the airplane into the ground from a survivable altitude in
such a way as to not tear up the main gear. My guess, and that is exactly
what it is, is that he got the tail up and either in a panic or accidentally
or through some kind of brake lock up (it appears to have 5" Azusa drum
brakes) he locked up the brakes and just went right over on his snout. Look
at the struts, the channel carry through and the landing gear. The gear is
almost pristine and the struts don't appear to be bent forward very much.
The position of the engine wreckage is more like it was wiped off the
aircraft and exited out of the debris field to the right side rather than
simply crumpling inward.Anyway, it makes for some head churning and gives me
a bit more appreciation for the guys who really do crash investigation.
Hope the pilot recovers fully.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:55 PM, George Myers <gmyers@grandecom.net> wrote:
>
> Maybe he did a 'Crow Flop'.
>
> ---Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of russ kinne
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:34 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Crash Photos
>
>
> Jerb, I never meant he flipped over backwards; it's pretty obvious he
> went over forwards.
> Judging from the gear condition, I think others listers are right in
> thinking he got airborne, maybe only 10-15', and nosed it in. If he
> got into the air, panicked and shoved the stick forward to get back
> on the ground immediately, this could easily result.
> Bottom line, IMHO, is still lack of training/instruction.
> Russ K
> do not archive
>
> On Oct 18, 2009, at 8:15 PM, jerb wrote:
>
> >
> > Russ, you may be right about flipping over backwards but the
> > straight down look of the impact makes me wonder more if he didn't
> > get airborne, then panicked and pushed the nose down.
> > jerb
> >
> >
> > At 02:48 PM 10/16/2009, you wrote:
> >>
> >> Dare I suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect
> >> he had the stick full BACK while taxiing downwind, the wind got
> >> under the elevators and flipped him upside-down.
> >> The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when
> >> tied down, for that matter.
> >> Don't they teach basics any more??? Or didn't he ever get any
> >> instruction from a CFI?
> >> Sorry to see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I
> >> think a Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.
> >> Poor piloting technique, IMHO
> >> Russ K
> >> do not archive
> >>
> >> On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
> >>
> >>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
> >>>
> >>> Kolbers,
> >>>
> >>> I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something
> >>> that
> >>> happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more
> >>> about it.
> >>> Usually, I do not find much more informantion. A few days ago, I
> >>> found a
> >>> report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana. I
> >>> Googled and
> >>> found the following site. It was not a FireFly, but the photos were
> >>> interesting.
> >>>
> >>> It can be seen at:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/
> >>> man_injured_following_plane_cr.php
> >>>
> >>> Wet and cold.
> >>>
> >>> Jack B. Hart FF004
> >>> Winchester, IN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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