---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/27/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: UltraStar gap seal (Dennis Souder) 2. 04:04 AM - Re: UltraStar gap seal (Dana Hague) 3. 04:37 AM - Re: fumes (Richard Girard) 4. 05:28 AM - Fuel pickup security (Richard Girard) 5. 12:47 PM - Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (JetPilot) 6. 12:51 PM - Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (JetPilot) 7. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (John Hauck) 8. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (Dana Hague) 9. 05:43 PM - Fuel filler stand (Richard Girard) 10. 06:09 PM - Re: Fuel filler stand (John Hauck) 11. 06:20 PM - Re: Fuel filler stand (Richard Pike) 12. 06:53 PM - Re: fumes (zeprep251@aol.com) 13. 06:53 PM - Re: Fuel filler stand (Dana Hague) 14. 07:49 PM - Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? (henry.voris) 15. 07:58 PM - Re: Fuel filler stand (robert bean) 16. 08:15 PM - Re: Fuel pickup security (henry.voris) 17. 10:05 PM - Re: Fuel filler stand (b young) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:20 AM PST US From: "Dennis Souder" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: UltraStar gap seal Dana, Then how do you explain texting? :-o Dennis Do not archive -Dana -- If email had been around before the telephone was invented, people would have said, "Hey, forget email! With this new telephone invention I can actually talk to people!" ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:29 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: RE: Kolb-List: UltraStar gap seal At 06:45 AM 10/27/2009, Dennis Souder wrote: > >Then how do you explain texting? :-o > >> If email had been around before the telephone was invented, people would >>have said, "Hey, forget email! With this new telephone invention I can >>actually talk to people!" I can't... I guess I'm a traditionalist; I'll stick with my big keyboard. :) -Dana do not archive -- Chaste: why virgins run. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fumes From: Richard Girard Bob, Sounds like an "I changed something and got an unexpected result" scenario. Sure fire way to find out is to put the vent back where it was and see if the problem goes away. Given the poor aerodynamics of the Mk III pod, no firewall, no cowling, and very little engine compartment / cockpit segregation pretty much anything is possible. Rick Girard do not archive On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:49 PM, robert bean wrote: > > Kolbers, has anyone experienced engine by-product smell, especially in a > MkIII? > This fall, after a nearly two hour flight, I noticed that my respiratory > system had retained what > smelled like an old oil sump. I don't see any visible evidence or unusual > oil consumption. > Thinking it may have been the location of my vent exit I rerouted it to the > aft of the engine near > a back mount. It was previously behind the top mounted radiator with > possible > migration down through the center section. I flew it for a short ride this > evening but not > long enough for any conclusive revelations. > There is the possibility of airflow reversal during taxi. > It gets parked for the winter tomorrow (short hop to a freebie steel barn) > ???? > BB > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel pickup security From: Richard Girard While the tubing may soften or expand, if you secure it with a safety wire clamp it won't fall off. These fit down the 1/2" hole in the plastic tank without any problems. They become an inspection item for annuals and will have to be replaced periodically, but unless they are allowed to rot they'll be where they're supposed to be. Rick Girard do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:44 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation From: "JetPilot" I have warned many times in the past on this list against using the cheap, clear fuel tubing in any airplane. It is very fragile, easily pinched, easily punctured, and prone to failure in a number of ways. My lawn mower came with better fuel tubing than most people use in their Kolbs... http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=48298 Those that continue to use cheap fuel line run a lot of needless risk for nothing. It is easy to change to quality fuel line, and does not cost much. I use Aeroquip fuel line in my Kolb, and have also used the expensive $3.50 dollars a foot High Pressure fuel injection line from Napa in other airplanes. They are both very good. The cheap stuff from Napa that is about $ 1.50 a foot is not good, pinches and crushes to easily, the fuel line from Advance Auto Parts is even worse. I do not and would never have any clear, " toy type " fuel tubing anywhere in any of my planes. Mahesh, you can buy all metal fuel pickup tubes from Kolb which would be better than what you have now. For those that do not see the entire account of the engine failure, you can read it here. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=48298 Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269688#269688 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:11 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation From: "JetPilot" For those that use the forum, here is Mahesh account that did not show up on the forum: Dear Kolbers, I wanted to share my experience of a forced landing that I had last weekend .. I took my Firestar-2 for some take off and landing practice and some flight around the around the valley. I had gone through a complete preflight, run up, full tanks of fuel and had three takeoffs and Landing in the pattern. On my fourth take off I climbed to pattern altitude and as I was turning cr osswind, I felt a bump and pretty much thought that it was a Thermal below my wing and continued turning down wind. After my turn, the RPM dropped sud denly from 6200 to 3200 and a chill ran through my spine. I immediately rea lized that the engine is going to quit! It ran rough and the RPM was oscill ating up and down. I wanted the prop to keep spinning and not quit, so I im mediately got my throttle to idle 2300 RPM and just forced the nose down an d increased airspeed to 68MPH. I made a quick and short turn to base and th en final and set myself up for landing. When the prop was spinning with min imum forward thrust, it felt as If I have thrown a drogue chute out. I came in nice and made a good three point landing and there was enough po wer to get me to the taxiway. I went through a RPM check after parking and as soon as I increased the thr ottle, I engine completely quit and the prop stood still. =C2- I started to trouble shoot and these were my observations: =C2- There was no fuel present between the tank pickups to the Diaphragm fuel pu mp to the carburetor. The carburetor bowls had almost run dry =C2- The was a fuel starvation and hence the engine quit. I started tracing the fault and had the following possibilities =93 Failure of the fuel pum p, or failure of the Primer bulb (Check valves) or after discussion with my friend Roger; it could be an air leak in the line. =C2- I replaced my primer bulb with a new marine one, but it did not help. When I started to pump the primer bulb, it was not pushing the fuel up to the fu el pump. On further trace, I found that one of the pick up tubes in one of the tanks had given way. =C2- The problem: I have two fuel tanks (5 gallons) each. I had modified my pick up, such tha t I passed a short piece of urethane tubing attached to the fitting and the n inserted a metal pick up tube that extended right to the bottom of the ta nk and had the entire arrangement safety wired. The blue urethane fuel line being in continuous contact with fuel, became soft and gave way with time (2 months only) and the metal pick up dropped to the bottom of the tank in flight. Since I have tee,ed the two pickups from both the tanks, the failed pick up started to draw in air and stopped fuel flow, resulting in fuel st arvation. =C2- The improvement: I modified and reinforced the metal pick by running the =C2=BC=9D ure thane tube right over it to the end of the tank such that it will never fai l and provided safety wiring adequately. =C2- I also provided a parallel bypass line to the primer bulb with an in line s hut off valve that I will switch off during priming and start up and turn o n after start up to bypass the primer bulb. This helps incase the primer bu lb check valves fail and ensures that there is a constant flow of fuel to t he engine. It is also recommended in the CPS article. I also ordered for a new fuel pump even if I have just 60 hours on it. The rebuild time is 100 h ours per Rotax. =C2- My learning=99s that may be helpful to some of you: I have limited time on the Kolb (35-40 hrs) and am a novice on this airplan e, but wanted to share the following: =C2- A Kolb no doubt climbs like a rocket, but also falls like a rock with out a ny power. It has a lot of drag and my FS-2 sinks at almost 800 feet/minute. Keep that altitude for its safety in every way. You get that critical time to make a decision and go for it. PractisePractisePractise It helps a lot for prac ticing those no power landings. In my case I had never practiced a power of f landing on the Kolb, which I plan to do from now on, but my somehow my pr ivate pilot training that I had undergone was put to practical test :-)) an d it helped! During your prefight, if the primer bulb does not become hard, then you can be=C2-pretty sure that there is an air leak in the system. I used to alw ays feel that=C2-=C2-there is nothing significant between the tank and the primer bulb to the fuel=C2- pump, but was caught by surprise and understood the flow much better If you have pick up tubes in your tanks, make it a part of your checklist t o verify=C2-that it=99s in good shape and will not fail. =C2- Thanks for reading through my experience and hope it helps some of you. =C2- best regards, Mahesh Iyer Phoenix, Oregon Kolb Firestar 2 =93 Powered by a Rotax 503 DCDI and driven by a three blade IVO prop The joy of Flight Nothing comes closer, it=99s a ro mance for life!=0A=0A=0A -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269689#269689 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:17 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation > I have warned many times in the past on this list against using the cheap, clear fuel tubing in any airplane. It is very fragile, easily pinched, easily punctured, and prone to failure in a number of ways. > > Mike Mike B/Gang: I have found Gates Premium neoprene fuel line to a good job of delivering fuel to my 912ULS. Never had a problem with it. Yes, I pay about $1.00 a foot for it. I don't know what the draw to clear plastic fuel line is with ultralighters, other than the standard answer, "I need to see my fuel." ;-) Always been a firm believer is the KISS formula. Without it I could have never made some of the flights my mkIII has taken me on. john h mkIII Nellis AFB, Nevada ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:19 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation At 07:01 PM 10/27/2009, John Hauck wrote: >I don't know what the draw to clear plastic fuel line is with >ultralighters, other than the standard answer, "I need to see my fuel." ;-) John we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, though I agree with you on most matters aeronautical. Having clear fuel line made it much easier to solve a baffling engine problem with my UltraStar a few years ago. But the clear stuff DOES need to be replaced regularly. -Dana -- We have enough youth; how about a Fountain of Smart? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:52 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel filler stand From: Richard Girard Awhile back Grant, I think it was, asked about methods of filling his Kolb Mk 2. I have tried everything I could think of short of buying a filling station pump, and I briefly considered that before I priced them. I did try several different brands of gas cans with no good results and I have one of the plunger pumps that is made for one brand of gas can. They work okay if you want to squat and pull a plunger handle up and down for 20 minutes per tank. As for me, I didn't enjoy that experience either. So there I was in the plumbing aisle of Big Box Chicom Sales when inspiration struck. A 4' piece of 1 1/2" Pvc, some elbows and street ells and a 4" to 1 1/2" reducer were all I had to buy, the rest came from various strategic supply (junk) drawers. I'm especially fond of the titanium tube legs, but even those came from the strategic reserves (junk pile) by way of Boeing Surplus. Anyway, as you can see it works from front or back so when I enclose the pod for winter flying I won't have to remove a side panel to use it, just move it around to the front and take a little care not to splash on the lexan. Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:10 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel filler stand Rick G/Gang: Are you refueling the space shuttle? I learned a long time ago how to refuel my airplane. Go to the hardware store. Buy 6 feet, longer or shorter if needed, of 1" OD X 3/4" ID vinyl tubing (clear) ;-) . Stick one end of it on the spout of your gas can and the other end into the fuel tank filler. Pick up the can up higher than the fuel tank filler. Gravity will take care of the rest. Fuel will flow out of that can like the refuel can at a NASCAR race. I carry my "Alabama credit card" with me when I fly cross country in case I have access to good, clean mogas. In fact, my "alabama credit card is in my old Dodge Cummins right now in case I need it to refuel my dirt bike or ATV. When I get to old to hold the 5 gal can over my head to refuel my mkIII, I'll go to a 2.5 gal can. If that one gets to heavy, I'll go to a gal can. If that one gets to heavy, I'll get some young whipper snapper to refuel for me, or I'll fly over to Wetumpka Airport and put airplane gas in it with the pump. john h mkIII Nellis AFB, Nevada Anyway, as you can see it works from front or back so when I enclose the pod for winter flying I won't have to remove a side panel to use it, just move it around to the front and take a little care not to splash on the lexan. Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:47 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel filler stand From: "Richard Pike" [quote="John Hauck"]Rick G/Gang: Are you refueling the space shuttle? john h mkIII Nellis AFB, Nevada Aw, cm'on John, lighten up! That looks like as close to a NASCAR pit crew refuel as any of us will ever get! Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269761#269761 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fumes From: zeprep251@aol.com Robert, You can feel the air flow coming back up the fuselage tube like some one with a leaf blower at the aft end.If you moved the vent close to the fuse lage the fumes will end up in the cabin.I had to make a 4" thick foam plug with slots cut for the cables placed just ahead of the elevator and rudde r balcranks at the rear of the fuselage tube.Made it about an inch larger than the tube diameter.Just made a cut for the cables at the 10,12,2 and 6 o'clock positions.When I changed the exhaust system ,it let me know in a hurry. G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: robert bean Sent: Mon, Oct 26, 2009 9:49 pm Subject: Kolb-List: fumes Kolbers, has anyone experienced engine by-product smell, especially in a MkIII? This fall, after a nearly two hour flight, I noticed that my respiratory system had retained what smelled like an old oil sump. I don't see any visible evidence or unusual oil consumption. Thinking it may have been the location of my vent exit I rerouted it to th e aft of the engine near a back mount. It was previously behind the top mounted radiator with poss ible migration down through the center section. I flew it for a short ride thi s evening but not long enough for any conclusive revelations. There is the possibility of airflow reversal during taxi. It gets parked for the winter tomorrow (short hop to a freebie steel barn) ???? BB ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:57 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel filler stand At 09:04 PM 10/27/2009, John Hauck wrote: >...Pick up the can up higher than the fuel tank filler. Gravity will take >care of the rest. Fuel will flow out of that can like the refuel can at a >NASCAR race... I just changed my fueling system, having gotten tired of holding a 5 gallon gas can up in the air and then stopping at just the right point to avoid overfilling my 1.75 gallon tanks. I looked at a lot of commercial options and I use one of the stupid plunger pumps for filling the 2 gallon tank in my PPG, but I couldn't find anything that really made sense for the Kolb. I made up a fuel hose assembly that goes into a standard 5 gallon gas can, replacing the original spout. It goes to the bottom of the can, seals at the cap with an O-ring, and has a four foot hose on the other end with a brass globe valve. A small bellows foot pump (a cheap one, made for filling air mattresses) plugs into the gas can's vent hole, and just a few pumps starts the fuel flowing. If the can's not full, there will be enough pressurized air in the can to keep the fuel flowing even after you stop pumping... and the valve lets you stop the flow instantly. When you only have a Part 103 legal 5 gallons, you want to fill right up to the neck! Before anybody says pressurizing a gas can is dangerous: A gas can left out in the sunshine will develop 5-6 psi of pressure. The pressure due to fluid depth is about 1/2 psi per foot, so if there's 18" from the back of the can to the top of the spout when pouring normally, that's 1-1/2 psi to get a reasonable speed flow. Pump fuel up 4' (up to the level of my reserve tank behind the seat) is another 2 psi. Total 3-1/2 psi, considerably less than the can in the sunlight is designed to handle. And of course I vent the can after pumping, then reclose the vent cap. I'll post pictures if anybody is interested. -Dana -- Please let me know if you did not receive this. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:39 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? From: "henry.voris" 25oct09 Kolbsters, For the past year and a half I've been stuck on Oahu. Back on Maui my poor FireFly has been sitting in a field in the Hawaiian Home Lands. She was folded, on her trailer and covered with tarps. I placed desiccants in the intake and exhaust. But it's still going to be a job to get her airworthy again. At the top of the list is to repair an 11" tear on the top of the port wing. I have never worked with fabric. I tried to buy the Poly Fiber practice kit because (besides needing to practice), I figured it would have all the supplies needed to patch the wing. All the suppliers (the usual suspects) I contacted required $300+ to cover the HAZ-MAT for the flight to paradise. I called Poly-Fiber and they said they didn't have a distributor in Hawaii. Luckily (?), I inherited the remains of the supplies used to cover the plane in 1997... There is a jar marked Poly-Tack. It's slow moving but crystal clear, so I figure a little MEK will loosen it up and it will be OK... I have a small can of Poly-Brush that feels almost full. Also, there is a half full large can of Poly-Spray. Both Poly-Brush and Poly-Spray require Poly-Reducer... I have no Poly-Fiber Reducer... Question number 1... Is there a chemical, that I can obtain locally (Hawaii), that can be substituted for the Poly-Fiber Reducer? For color, there are two small cans of Poly-Tone, about a quarter full. I read that it may be reduced with MEK... No problem. There is plenty of Poly-Fiber 1.6 oz. fabric to make the patch. But I have no tape. Question number 2... May I cut my own tape from the 1.6 oz. Poly-Fiber fabric? Any information or hints on this subject would be most appreciated. Thanks, ahead of time... Not finding what you want, living out of catalogs, making do and finding substitutes is all part of living at the far end of the technical food chain... Aloha -------- Henry Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269774#269774 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel filler stand From: robert bean Richard, you've been spending too much time in the porta-potty. Nice copy. BB do not archive On 27, Oct 2009, at 8:27 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > Awhile back Grant, I think it was, asked about methods of filling > his Kolb Mk 2. I have tried everything I could think of short of > buying a filling station pump, and I briefly considered that before > I priced them. I did try several different brands of gas cans with > no good results and I have one of the plunger pumps that is made for > one brand of gas can. They work okay if you want to squat and pull a > plunger handle up and down for 20 minutes per tank. As for me, I > didn't enjoy that experience either. So there I was in the plumbing > aisle of Big Box Chicom Sales when inspiration struck. A 4' piece of > 1 1/2" Pvc, some elbows and street ells and a 4" to 1 1/2" reducer > were all I had to buy, the rest came from various strategic supply > (junk) drawers. I'm especially fond of the titanium tube legs, but > even those came from the strategic reserves (junk pile) by way of > Boeing Surplus. > Anyway, as you can see it works from front or back so when I enclose > the pod for winter flying I won't have to remove a side panel to use > it, just move it around to the front and take a little care not to > splash on the lexan. > > Rick Girard > > close up.jpg> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:29 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel pickup security From: "henry.voris" 27oct09 Rick, Your photo looks a lot like the set up I had... (I like your pick-up better.) It took a little over a year for my blue tubing to disintegrate into pieces of blue jello, leaving the pick-up rolling around the bottom of the tank. Your point about regular inspection is well taken. Aloha, -------- Henry Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269780#269780 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:44 PM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel filler stand Go to the hardware store. Buy 6 feet, longer or shorter if needed, of 1" OD X 3/4" ID vinyl tubing (clear) ;-) . Stick one end of it on the spout of your gas can and the other end into the fuel tank filler. Pick up the can up higher than the fuel tank filler. Gravity will take care of the rest. Fuel will flow out of that can like the refuel can at a NASCAR race. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this works great if there is a vent on the tank,,, if there is not a vent, after the tank starts to collapse with a vacuum, then loosen the filler connector, the air will suck into the tank and the gas will flow down the hose. you should not loose over 1 or 2 drops of fuel. if you tighten the filler just as the fuel runs out, you will be ok. Boyd Young ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.