Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:54 AM - Re: Fuel filler stand (John Hauck)
2. 06:19 AM - Re: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? (Beauford T)
3. 06:46 AM - Re: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? (robert bean)
4. 08:21 AM - Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (JetPilot)
5. 09:41 AM - Re: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? (Dana Hague)
6. 09:41 AM - Re: Fuel filler stand (Dana Hague)
7. 09:58 AM - Re: Fuel filler stand (robert bean)
8. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (Dana Hague)
9. 10:08 AM - Re: Fuel filler stand (pj.ladd)
10. 10:17 AM - Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (George Alexander)
11. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (John Hauck)
12. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (Jack B. Hart)
13. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (Richard Girard)
14. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Fuel pickup security (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
15. 01:12 PM - This just in from the shop (Richard Girard)
16. 01:22 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (Herb)
17. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (Herb)
18. 01:28 PM - Re: This just in from the shop (Beauford T)
19. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: Fuel pickup security (Richard Girard)
20. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (Dana Hague)
21. 02:03 PM - gravity feed fuel system (Dana Hague)
22. 02:10 PM - princeton fuel sending probe (albertakolbmk3)
23. 02:12 PM - Re: gravity feed fuel system (Richard Girard)
24. 02:27 PM - Re: princeton fuel sending probe (Richard Girard)
25. 02:36 PM - Re: gravity feed fuel system (Dana Hague)
26. 02:42 PM - Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (JetPilot)
27. 02:53 PM - Re: princeton fuel sending probe (George Myers)
28. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (robert bean)
29. 03:04 PM - Re: This just in from the shop (robert bean)
30. 03:19 PM - Re: This just in from the shop (russ kinne)
31. 04:00 PM - Re: gravity feed fuel system (JetPilot)
32. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: gravity feed fuel system (Dana Hague)
33. 04:44 PM - Re: gravity feed fuel system (Richard Girard)
34. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (John Hauck)
35. 05:23 PM - Re: princeton fuel sending probe (Larry Cottrell)
36. 05:37 PM - Re: gravity feed fuel system (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
37. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: gravity feed fuel system (russ kinne)
38. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (possums)
39. 07:39 PM - Re: Fuel filler stand (jerb)
40. 08:22 PM - Re: Fuel filler stand (Richard Girard)
41. 08:53 PM - Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation (George Alexander)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filler stand |
Hi Boyd/Ya'll:
If your fuel can doesn't have a vent, drill a hole in it. When finished
fueling, stick a golf tee in it to seal.
john h
mkIII
Nellis AFB, Nevada
this works great if there is a vent on the tank,,, if there is not a
vent, after the tank starts to collapse with a vacuum,
Boyd Young
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? |
Brother Voris:
Do not know if you can "substitute" anything else for poly tone reducer... but
here is what is in the
MSDS for the reducer...
Toluene (51.29% by weight)
Methyl Ethyl Ketone (2.84%)
Methyl Isobutyl Ketone (19.93%)
Methy n-Amyl Ketone (17.19%)
Ethyl 3-Ethoxypropionate (10.74%)
I doubt you'll be able to find all of this at Ace Hardware...
Good luck.
...worth what ye paid fer it...
beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:49 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute?
Kolbsters,
Question number 1... Is there a chemical, that I can obtain locally (Hawaii), that
can be substituted for the Poly-Fiber Reducer?
Aloha
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? |
All those various ketones are to set the evaporation stages. Any
single one would do, depending upon ambient temp.
Toluene is slow.
Some hobby shops sell stits products.
If you are shooting color on a small area, spray can vinyl paints work
ok. Rustoleum and Plasti-Kote are two.
I have used Plasti-Kote (white) on mine over fabric with good results.
BB
On 28, Oct 2009, at 9:17 AM, Beauford T wrote:
> <beauford173@verizon.net>
>
> Brother Voris:
>
> Do not know if you can "substitute" anything else for poly tone
> reducer... but
> here is what is in the
> MSDS for the reducer...
>
> Toluene (51.29% by weight)
> Methyl Ethyl Ketone (2.84%)
> Methyl Isobutyl Ketone (19.93%)
> Methy n-Amyl Ketone (17.19%)
> Ethyl 3-Ethoxypropionate (10.74%)
>
> I doubt you'll be able to find all of this at Ace Hardware...
>
> Good luck.
>
> ...worth what ye paid fer it...
>
> beauford
> FF-076
> Brandon, FL
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:49 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute?
>
>
> Kolbsters,
> Question number 1... Is there a chemical, that I can obtain locally
> (Hawaii), that
> can be substituted for the Poly-Fiber Reducer?
> Aloha
>
> --------
> Henry
> Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation |
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> I don't know what the draw to clear plastic fuel line is with ultralighters,
> other than the standard answer, "I need to see my fuel." ;-)
>
>
You are very correct John, people parrot this line and have no understanding of
how flawed and dangerous their reasoning is.
There is no need to see the fuel going through the line in any vehicle, be it cars,
boats, or airplanes. No certified or LSA airplane in the world has clear
fuel line so that you can see the fuel going through it. It is nothing short
of ridiculous to think you need to see fuel going through the lines.
There are those that will say " I need to see the bubbles if there is a leak "...
The best answer there is to have a properly designed fuel system that is pressure
fed rather than vacuum drawn. If you are drawing fuel through a vacuum,
then you are asking for vapor lock that will result in engine problems / failure,
or complete engine failure due to the slightest leak. With a pressure
fed system and quality fuel line, chances of a leak is about a thousand times
less than with clear fuel line, and if you do have a leak, you will see a slight
wet place on the line instead of having an engine failure. Many very smart
aircraft designers have been designing fuel systems in airplanes for over 100
years now, and no manufactured aircraft use cheap clear fuel lines. The risk
in using cheap substandard clear fuel line is FAR greater than whatever imagined
benefit that ultralight community has come up with.
People definitely imitate lemmings sometimes, things get started in small communities
like ultralights, and its monkey see, monkey do... People just like follow
whatever everyone else does without questioning it, even if its leading them
off a cliff...
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269833#269833
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Poly-Fiber Reducer substitute? |
At 09:17 AM 10/28/2009, Beauford T wrote:
>Do not know if you can "substitute" anything else for poly tone reducer...
>but
>here is what is in the
>MSDS for the reducer...
I just used straight MEK (from the local hardware store) to thin the
Poly-Spray and Poly-Tone for spraying on small repair jobs... worked fine.
-Dana
--
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors-- and miss.
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filler stand |
At 07:33 AM 10/28/2009, John Hauck wrote:
>Hi Boyd/Ya'll:
>
>If your fuel can doesn't have a vent, drill a hole in it. When finished
>fueling, stick a golf tee in it to seal.
Due to new EPA regulations, you can no longer buy fuel cans with vents...
the new regs require dispensing valves with internal vents that seal
automatically and are child proof. Supposedly this prevents spillage and
evaporation. What the idiot bureaucrats failed to realize is that far MORE
fuel is spilled by the cheap valves failing or the pissed off owners
ripping the junk valves off the cans and open pouring the fuel.
Your tax dollars at work...
-Dana
--
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors-- and miss.
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filler stand |
I now use a separate fuel can for slightly higher octane mogas than I
use in my fleet
of equipment. -another walmart red plastic jug with long plastic hose
on it. The vent is a tiny
hole drilled in the handle. Not much can get in there unless you
leave it out in the rain.
Gasoline is constantly outgassing and will prevent small entering
particles.
The jug will also not swell up on warm days.
This is what I do, not a recommendation.
BB
On 28, Oct 2009, at 12:38 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
> At 07:33 AM 10/28/2009, John Hauck wrote:
>> Hi Boyd/Ya'll:
>>
>> If your fuel can doesn't have a vent, drill a hole in it. When
>> finished fueling, stick a golf tee in it to seal.
>
> Due to new EPA regulations, you can no longer buy fuel cans with
> vents... the new regs require dispensing valves with internal vents
> that seal automatically and are child proof. Supposedly this
> prevents spillage and evaporation. What the idiot bureaucrats
> failed to realize is that far MORE fuel is spilled by the cheap
> valves failing or the pissed off owners ripping the junk valves off
> the cans and open pouring the fuel.
>
> Your tax dollars at work...
>
> -Dana
>
>
> --
> Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors--
> and miss.
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel |
starvation
At 11:21 AM 10/28/2009, JetPilot wrote:
>There is no need to see the fuel going through the line in any vehicle, be
>it cars, boats, or airplanes....
>There are those that will say " I need to see the bubbles if there is a
>leak "... The best answer there is to have a properly designed fuel
>system that is pressure fed rather than vacuum drawn..
I already presented a situation where having a clear fuel line saved me
hours of troubleshooting. I consider that a "need".
It may be nice to have a pure pressure system, but unless you have a
submerged pump inside the fuel tank or tanks above the engine, there will
always be some part of the system using suction. Furthermore, if you have
a pulse pump like most 2-stroke engines do, the pump must be located close
to the engine, meaning that most of the fuel line is under suction.
Even black rubber hoses have a limited life and must be replaced, so the
difference is only one of degree, not fundamental. I simply have to (and
do) replace my hose more often, as preventative maintenance... and the
visual check I do during my preflight runup gives an added level of safety.
But I don't expect you to agree, and that's fine... there are lots of
pilots who think we're idiots to fly anything but a factory built type
certificated aircraft maintained by an A&P and inspected by an IA, and I
don't agree with them either.
-Dana
--
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors-- and miss.
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filler stand |
Hi,
filling tanks seems a general problem. Holding a jerry can above shoulder
height is a bit hard going.
I bought at a show a pump made entirely of plastic. It has a stiff 1 inch
tube on the inlet side and a flexible hose on the outlet side about the
same which protrudes from the pump body at 90 degrees..
The body in essence is a cylinder about 3" x 6" with a sleeve over it with
an attached handle which enables a stroke of about 3 or 4 inches.
I have fixed a Terry Clip to each of the two diagonals above the tanks on
my Xtra. The enables me to put a funnel in the top of the tank. Slide the
flexible hose into the Terry clip with the end in the funnel.
This leaves 2 hands free to pump. You need one to hold the body and one to
pump the handle. It is a bit fiddly because of the short stroke but on the
plus side it weighs only a few ounces and the flexible hose can be rolled up
and the whole thing put away behind the seats.
I won`t pretend that it is an ultra quick method but it is simple,(I
hesitate to say fool proof) light and stowable.
Cheers
Pat
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation |
JetPilot wrote:
>
>
> - - - -SNIP- - - -
> The risk in using cheap substandard clear fuel line is FAR greater than whatever
imagined benefit that ultralight community has come up with.
>
> - - - - SNIP- - - -
>
> Mike
"....using cheap, substandard.... fuel line" is risky, whether it is clear, opaque,
non-clear, black, yellow, orange, pink, chartreuse or polka-dotted.
Is it OK if I use expensive, high standard, clear line? Let me know, 'cause I've
been using pulse line (throughout my fuel system) for 15+ years. Change it
all out once a year. Wouldn't want a problem to develop.
My thoughts..... make your own decisions.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269863#269863
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel |
starvation
> It may be nice to have a pure pressure system, but unless you have a
> submerged pump inside the fuel tank or tanks above the engine, there will
> always be some part of the system using suction.
> -Dana
Dana/Gang:
Not to be argumentive, but to inform. I have a system that is pressure all
the way, when I have my boost pump on.
I pull fuel through a finger strainer out the very lowest point of my 25 gal
aluminum fuel tank. From there atmospheric pressure pushed the fuel to the
Facet Electronic Boost Pump mounted below the lowest point of the fuel tank.
As long as my boost pump is on, I have a completely pressurized system
without a submerged pump in the fuel tank.
Once I turn off the boost pump, I am then pulling fuel through the Facet
Pump to the engine driven fuel pump on the engine. I have never had a fuel
delivery problem. Always use Gates Premium Grade neoprene fuel line. Can't
see bubbles if I have them. If there is a suction leak at one of the
fittings, it isn't enough to cause fuel starvation.
With neoprene fuel line and the correct size hose clamp, I can get a good
bike without fear of cutting the hose, unlike plastic fuel line.
Plastic fuel line is much more prone to failure without giving a lot of
prefailure symptoms. I remember pulling on a plastic pulse tube and pulled
a section right out of it. Don't know how old it was, but back in my two
stroke days, I didn't fly them long before I trashed them.
Worth what you paid for it,
john h
mkIII
Furnace Creek, Death Valley, California
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel |
starvation
At 08:21 AM 10/28/09 -0700, you wrote:
>You are very correct John, people parrot this line and have no understanding of
how flawed and dangerous their reasoning is.
>
Some of us do not have an electrical system, and some of us have severe
weight restrictions, and so the only way to get the fuel up to the pump and
carburetor is by use of squeeze bulb. If the engine is fitted with a
primer, one could do with out a squeeze bulb. The system could be primed by
hand cranking and running the engine in bursts until the fuel is sucked up
to the pump and the float bowl fills. For an older duffer like me, I prefer
some clear tubing in the system between the pump and the float bowl, so
that, I can see that I have fuel up to the float bowl. I am too old perform
the prime and run in bursts technique to prime the system. By the time I
get it done, I am in no shape to go flying.
I like the vacuum type system, in that there is just a short piece of
pressured line to the carburetor from the pump. It reduces the chance of
and reduces the magnitude of in flight fire, in that, the fire will
extinguish its self once the engine quits. On a pressurized system one must
remember to turn off the pump.
There are pro's and con's. No one system fits all. The danger, if any, is
that it is up to the pilot to recognize the failure modes of his system and
adapt to it.
Third start up of the MZ34. Slowly learning the intricacies of the
Tillotson carburetor.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation |
John, E X P E R I M E N T A L. Your experiment with black lines is working
for you. Mine with translucent is working for me. When I needed to find the
blockage in Zulu Delta's fuel system, having translucent lines certainly
worked for me.
As long as the system is designed around the material specifications and
maintained properly either is just fine and dandy. Some translucent line is
better than others. Some black line is better than others. Ho hum.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>wrote:
>
> At 08:21 AM 10/28/09 -0700, you wrote:
> >You are very correct John, people parrot this line and have no
> understanding of how flawed and dangerous their reasoning is.
> >
>
> Some of us do not have an electrical system, and some of us have severe
> weight restrictions, and so the only way to get the fuel up to the pump and
> carburetor is by use of squeeze bulb. If the engine is fitted with a
> primer, one could do with out a squeeze bulb. The system could be primed
> by
> hand cranking and running the engine in bursts until the fuel is sucked up
> to the pump and the float bowl fills. For an older duffer like me, I
> prefer
> some clear tubing in the system between the pump and the float bowl, so
> that, I can see that I have fuel up to the float bowl. I am too old
> perform
> the prime and run in bursts technique to prime the system. By the time I
> get it done, I am in no shape to go flying.
>
> I like the vacuum type system, in that there is just a short piece of
> pressured line to the carburetor from the pump. It reduces the chance of
> and reduces the magnitude of in flight fire, in that, the fire will
> extinguish its self once the engine quits. On a pressurized system one
> must
> remember to turn off the pump.
>
> There are pro's and con's. No one system fits all. The danger, if any, is
> that it is up to the pilot to recognize the failure modes of his system and
> adapt to it.
>
> Third start up of the MZ34. Slowly learning the intricacies of the
> Tillotson carburetor.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pickup security |
We have discussed this before but I keep hearing about forced landings with
top feed fuel systems and all the steps you guys are taking to keep them
safe. The original Kolb design was to feed fuel from the bottom of the
tanks. It works and is not prone to fuel stoppage so you don't have to go to
extreme measures to fix a potential safety issue created by top feeding. Yes
I heard someone say they had a fuel leak using the bushings in the bottom of
the tank. Maybe it was a installation issue?? I have never talked to anyone
that had a leak and my tanks have never leaked in the eight years they have
been in service. I did replace the tanks and bushings and fuel lines app.
four years ago. I use the black automotive fuel line for most of the system
and two short transparent blue lines to feed the carbs. I like to see fuel
flowing into the carbs using my boost pump during preflight. I purchase a
one foot section of transparent fuel line every other year and replace these
lines. I try to buy the best lines I can get and don't brake the bank with
my one foot purchase.
I also think there may be a issue of exposing fuel lines to fuel on the
inside and out when they are designed to only carry fuel inside.
My bottom feed fittings are standard LSA products with a shout off valves
and finger strainers. I drill the holes in the tanks with step drill bits
and very carefully deburr the hole.
We have to be very carful when we improve our airplanes that we don't create
new problems.
Again worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "henry.voris" <henry_voris@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:15 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel pickup security
>
> 27oct09
>
> Rick,
>
> Your photo looks a lot like the set up I had... (I like your pick-up
> better.)
>
> It took a little over a year for my blue tubing to disintegrate into
> pieces of blue jello, leaving the pick-up rolling around the bottom of the
> tank.
>
> Your point about regular inspection is well taken.
>
> Aloha,
>
> --------
> Henry
> Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269780#269780
>
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | This just in from the shop |
It's blowing like mad here today and storms are expected tonight and
tomorrow before a predicted weekend of good flying weather so I to the shop
this morning and finished up my prop extension. It got stalled when I
couldn't get good quality, i.e. not chicom and not carbon steel, taps but
the UPS man brought me new ones from McMaster Carr first thing this morning.
Specs: 2.5" long, 2024 T3 aluminum, everything concentric within .0005",
ends (mount surfaces) parallel with .0002".
Now all I have to wait on is the metric 8.8 SHCS to mount it. I finally
found a source that would sell me less than 100.
Before someone asks, the distance between flanges is too small to get a bolt
in between that is long enough to go through the gearbox propeller flange
with enough threads proud to use a lock nut so I drilled pass through holes
for the heads of the SHCS and offset the propeller mount holes 30 degrees.
Now to deburr, degrease, alodine and it's ready to mount.
Rick Girard
do not archive
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel |
starvation
Taking the safe way out of this one....by saying that I think the
stuff that Travis sells is plenty good...clear...thick walled for use
as fuel or pulse line...Herb
At 12:17 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>JetPilot wrote:
> >
> >
> > - - - -SNIP- - - -
> > The risk in using cheap substandard clear fuel line is FAR
> greater than whatever imagined benefit that ultralight community
> has come up with.
> >
> > - - - - SNIP- - - -
> >
> > Mike
>
>
>"....using cheap, substandard.... fuel line" is risky, whether it is
>clear, opaque, non-clear, black, yellow, orange, pink, chartreuse or
>polka-dotted.
>
>Is it OK if I use expensive, high standard, clear line? Let me
>know, 'cause I've been using pulse line (throughout my fuel system)
>for 15+ years. Change it all out once a year. Wouldn't want a
>problem to develop.
>
>My thoughts..... make your own decisions.
>
>--------
>George Alexander
>FS II R503 N709FS
>http://gtalexander.home.att.net
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269863#269863
>
>
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>10/28/09 09:34:00
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel |
starvation
Jack and all
I placed a squeeze bulb such that it pressurizes the fuel tank and
forces the fuel out and through the pump to the bowl...all I have to
do is place my finger over the tank vent hole and squeeze... no in
line squeeze bulb or bypass to worry about...Herb
At 02:07 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote:
>
>At 08:21 AM 10/28/09 -0700, you wrote:
> >You are very correct John, people parrot this line and have no
> understanding of how flawed and dangerous their reasoning is.
> >
>
>Some of us do not have an electrical system, and some of us have severe
>weight restrictions, and so the only way to get the fuel up to the pump and
>carburetor is by use of squeeze bulb. If the engine is fitted with a
>primer, one could do with out a squeeze bulb. The system could be primed by
>hand cranking and running the engine in bursts until the fuel is sucked up
>to the pump and the float bowl fills. For an older duffer like me, I prefer
>some clear tubing in the system between the pump and the float bowl, so
>that, I can see that I have fuel up to the float bowl. I am too old perform
>the prime and run in bursts technique to prime the system. By the time I
>get it done, I am in no shape to go flying.
>
>I like the vacuum type system, in that there is just a short piece of
>pressured line to the carburetor from the pump. It reduces the chance of
>and reduces the magnitude of in flight fire, in that, the fire will
>extinguish its self once the engine quits. On a pressurized system one must
>remember to turn off the pump.
>
>There are pro's and con's. No one system fits all. The danger, if any, is
>that it is up to the pilot to recognize the failure modes of his system and
>adapt to it.
>
>Third start up of the MZ34. Slowly learning the intricacies of the
>Tillotson carburetor.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Winchester, IN
>
>
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>10/28/09 09:34:00
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: This just in from the shop |
....a work of art, Brother Girard... Wow...!
beauford
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 4:12 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: This just in from the shop
It's blowing like mad here today and storms are expected tonight and
tomorrow before a predicted weekend of good flying weather so I to the
shop this morning and finished up my prop extension. It got stalled
when I couldn't get good quality, i.e. not chicom and not carbon
steel, taps but the UPS man brought me new ones from McMaster Carr
first thing this morning.
Specs: 2.5" long, 2024 T3 aluminum, everything concentric within
.0005", ends (mount surfaces) parallel with .0002".
Now all I have to wait on is the metric 8.8 SHCS to mount it. I
finally found a source that would sell me less than 100.
Before someone asks, the distance between flanges is too small to
get a bolt in between that is long enough to go through the gearbox
propeller flange with enough threads proud to use a lock nut so I
drilled pass through holes for the heads of the SHCS and offset the
propeller mount holes 30 degrees.
Now to deburr, degrease, alodine and it's ready to mount.
Rick Girard
do not archive
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pickup security |
Richard, In this case it was a TNK improvement. When I bought new tanks I
bought new pickups too. When I pulled the old yellow tank that came in the
plane the pickup bushing flange was slit all the way to the center and there
were stains inside the fuselage that could have been fuel seepage or it
could have been spill. When the top mount pickups came from TNK, I just went
with it.
Rick
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen <
NeilsenRM@comcast.net> wrote:
> NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> We have discussed this before but I keep hearing about forced landings with
> top feed fuel systems and all the steps you guys are taking to keep them
> safe. The original Kolb design was to feed fuel from the bottom of the
> tanks. It works and is not prone to fuel stoppage so you don't have to go
> to
> extreme measures to fix a potential safety issue created by top feeding.
> Yes
> I heard someone say they had a fuel leak using the bushings in the bottom
> of
> the tank. Maybe it was a installation issue?? I have never talked to anyone
> that had a leak and my tanks have never leaked in the eight years they have
> been in service. I did replace the tanks and bushings and fuel lines app.
> four years ago. I use the black automotive fuel line for most of the system
> and two short transparent blue lines to feed the carbs. I like to see fuel
> flowing into the carbs using my boost pump during preflight. I purchase a
> one foot section of transparent fuel line every other year and replace
> these
> lines. I try to buy the best lines I can get and don't brake the bank with
> my one foot purchase.
>
> I also think there may be a issue of exposing fuel lines to fuel on the
> inside and out when they are designed to only carry fuel inside.
>
> My bottom feed fittings are standard LSA products with a shout off valves
> and finger strainers. I drill the holes in the tanks with step drill bits
> and very carefully deburr the hole.
>
> We have to be very carful when we improve our airplanes that we don't
> create
> new problems.
>
> Again worth what you paid for it.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henry.voris" <henry_voris@yahoo.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:15 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel pickup security
>
>
>>
>> 27oct09
>>
>> Rick,
>>
>> Your photo looks a lot like the set up I had... (I like your pick-up
>> better.)
>>
>> It took a little over a year for my blue tubing to disintegrate into
>> pieces of blue jello, leaving the pick-up rolling around the bottom of the
>> tank.
>>
>> Your point about regular inspection is well taken.
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>> --------
>> Henry
>> Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269780#269780
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel |
starvation
At 03:07 PM 10/28/2009, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>Some of us do not have an electrical system, and some of us have severe
>weight restrictions, and so the only way to get the fuel up to the pump and
>carburetor is by use of squeeze bulb. If the engine is fitted with a
>primer, one could do with out a squeeze bulb. The system could be primed by
>hand cranking and running the engine in bursts until the fuel is sucked up
>to the pump and the float bowl fills...
I'm in that category (no electrical and 103 legal, well nearly), but after
a problem with a brand new squeeze bulb that could have turned out very
ugly, I no longer use one. I prime with the plunger primer and the float
bowl fill very quickly. If the engine doesn't want to run long enough on
the prime, another quick shot of prime keeps it going until the bowl is
full. Of course the engine on my UltraStar isn't way up on top like the
later Kolbs.
-Dana
--
The family that shoots together..... shouldn't be messed with!
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | gravity feed fuel system |
All this talk of fuel system things brings to mind a thought I've had for
some time, which wouldn't work on Kolbs with the engine on top would work
on my UltraStar: Mounting the fuel tank above the engine and using
straight gravity feed (no pump at all). I know I'd need a different float
needle and seat but I'm unclear how much head is needed to get adequate flow.
Another idea would be a small header tank (1 gallon or so) above the engine
and fill it from a larger, lower tank with an overflow returning the excess
to the lower tank. In the event of a pump failure I'd still have 15
minutes or so to find a place to land.
-Dana
--
The family that shoots together..... shouldn't be messed with!
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | princeton fuel sending probe |
Anyone have a picture of how they mounted theirs? The one I received with my Grand
Rapids EIS just has a rubber grommet. There are 5 holes around the outside
of the sending unit but from what I can gather it is just a pressure fit in the
tank with the rubber grommet... is this correct. If you use the screw holes
with self tappers how do you seal it?
--------
Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269898#269898
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gravity feed fuel system |
Dana, When my buddy, Dave, and I were flying our Kasperwing we tried that
experiment. Tank above carb (Mikuni) about 1', Zenoah G 25 engine. Wouldn't
flow enough fuel at full throttle. I have no idea why, it makes no sense, it
just liked the little extra fuel pressure the Mikuni pump added. We actually
tried it twice, convinced we had done something wrong the first time, but,
same result.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> All this talk of fuel system things brings to mind a thought I've had for
> some time, which wouldn't work on Kolbs with the engine on top would work on
> my UltraStar: Mounting the fuel tank above the engine and using straight
> gravity feed (no pump at all). I know I'd need a different float needle and
> seat but I'm unclear how much head is needed to get adequate flow.
>
> Another idea would be a small header tank (1 gallon or so) above the engine
> and fill it from a larger, lower tank with an overflow returning the excess
> to the lower tank. In the event of a pump failure I'd still have 15 minutes
> or so to find a place to land.
>
> -Dana
> --
> The family that shoots together..... shouldn't be messed with!
>
>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: princeton fuel sending probe |
Tony, I don't know if the Princeton is the same one Westach uses, but here's
how I did mine. I do know that self tapping screws will not seal, learned
that one the hard way.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 4:10 PM, albertakolbmk3 <cheriebraun@xplornet.com>wrote:
> cheriebraun@xplornet.com>
>
> Anyone have a picture of how they mounted theirs? The one I received with
> my Grand Rapids EIS just has a rubber grommet. There are 5 holes around the
> outside of the sending unit but from what I can gather it is just a pressure
> fit in the tank with the rubber grommet... is this correct. If you use the
> screw holes with self tappers how do you seal it?
>
> --------
> Tony B.
>
> Kolb MKIII C
> Rotax 582
> C Gearbox 3.00:1
> WD 66" 3 Blade Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269898#269898
>
>
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gravity feed fuel system |
At 05:12 PM 10/28/2009, Richard Girard wrote:
>Dana, When my buddy, Dave, and I were flying our Kasperwing we tried that
>experiment. Tank above carb (Mikuni) about 1', Zenoah G 25 engine.
>Wouldn't flow enough fuel at full throttle. I have no idea why, it makes
>no sense, it just liked the little extra fuel pressure the Mikuni pump
>added. We actually tried it twice, convinced we had done something wrong
>the first time, but, same result.
Did you change the float needle and seat? There is a different (larger)
needle/seat used for gravity feed systems. The larger needle won't work
for pump systems as the pressure pushes it open.
-Dana
--
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation |
George,
There is not such thing as clear fuel line that even comes close to the safety
and quality of Aeroquip or High Pressure fuel injection line. The fact that
you feel the need to change your fuel line every year is an indication of how
substandard the stuff is, it does not matter what you paid for it. How many
cars do you have to change the fuel lines out once a year , How many certified
airplanes do you have to replace the fuel lines every year ?? None, because
no manufacturer would risk building such a substandard safety item into an item
that is sold in the open market. More importantly, the clear fuel line would
not pass any safety standard in either cars or planes. Even if you do change
your line out once a year, the cheap clear toy fuel line is still very fragile,
prone to crushing and a number of other things.
I fully support your right to make your own choice in fuel lines. I hope you
keep a close eye on it, keep changing it, and have no problems. But most importantly,
everyone should have the facts about the disadvantages and dangers of
this type of fuel line and make an informed decision instead of just copying
what other ultralights do.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269904#269904
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | princeton fuel sending probe |
The rubber grommet only is correct for a top mount. I believe you can get a
copy of the installation instructions online. If not then I'll copy mine &
email them to you.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of albertakolbmk3
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 4:10 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: princeton fuel sending probe
Anyone have a picture of how they mounted theirs? The one I received with my
Grand Rapids EIS just has a rubber grommet. There are 5 holes around the
outside of the sending unit but from what I can gather it is just a pressure
fit in the tank with the rubber grommet... is this correct. If you use the
screw holes with self tappers how do you seal it?
--------
Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269898#269898
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation |
Hey, watch it boy. Yer talkin' about me. I have long assumed the
mantle of cheap and substandard.
Suits me fine. I'm still solvent and (urp) surviving.
BB
do not archive
On 28, Oct 2009, at 1:17 PM, George Alexander wrote:
> >
>
>
> JetPilot wrote:
>>
>>
>> - - - -SNIP- - - -
>> The risk in using cheap substandard clear fuel line is FAR greater
>> than whatever imagined benefit that ultralight community has come
>> up with.
>>
>> - - - - SNIP- - - -
>>
>> Mike
>
>
> "....using cheap, substandard.... fuel line" is risky, whether it is
> clear, opaque, non-clear, black, yellow, orange, pink, chartreuse or
> polka-dotted.
>
> Is it OK if I use expensive, high standard, clear line? Let me
> know, 'cause I've been using pulse line (throughout my fuel system)
> for 15+ years. Change it all out once a year. Wouldn't want a
> problem to develop.
>
> My thoughts..... make your own decisions.
>
> --------
> George Alexander
> FS II R503 N709FS
> http://gtalexander.home.att.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269863#269863
>
>
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: This just in from the shop |
admirable.....
BB
On 28, Oct 2009, at 4:12 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> It's blowing like mad here today and storms are expected tonight and
> tomorrow before a predicted weekend of good flying weather so I to
> the shop this morning and finished up my prop extension. It got
> stalled when I couldn't get good quality, i.e. not chicom and not
> carbon steel, taps but the UPS man brought me new ones from McMaster
> Carr first thing this morning.
> Specs: 2.5" long, 2024 T3 aluminum, everything concentric within .
> 0005", ends (mount surfaces) parallel with .0002".
> Now all I have to wait on is the metric 8.8 SHCS to mount it. I
> finally found a source that would sell me less than 100.
> Before someone asks, the distance between flanges is too small to
> get a bolt in between that is long enough to go through the gearbox
> propeller flange with enough threads proud to use a lock nut so I
> drilled pass through holes for the heads of the SHCS and offset the
> propeller mount holes 30 degrees.
> Now to deburr, degrease, alodine and it's ready to mount.
>
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
>
> <2.5 inch extension 2.jpg>
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: This just in from the shop |
Rick, that's a beautiful piece of work. Would that every piece of
every aircraft were made as well -- for SURE, experimentals.
do not archive
On Oct 28, 2009, at 6:03 PM, robert bean wrote:
>
> admirable.....
> BB
>
> On 28, Oct 2009, at 4:12 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> It's blowing like mad here today and storms are expected tonight
>> and tomorrow before a predicted weekend of good flying weather so
>> I to the shop this morning and finished up my prop extension. It
>> got stalled when I couldn't get good quality, i.e. not chicom and
>> not carbon steel, taps but the UPS man brought me new ones from
>> McMaster Carr first thing this morning.
>> Specs: 2.5" long, 2024 T3 aluminum, everything concentric within .
>> 0005", ends (mount surfaces) parallel with .0002".
>> Now all I have to wait on is the metric 8.8 SHCS to mount it. I
>> finally found a source that would sell me less than 100.
>> Before someone asks, the distance between flanges is too small to
>> get a bolt in between that is long enough to go through the
>> gearbox propeller flange with enough threads proud to use a lock
>> nut so I drilled pass through holes for the heads of the SHCS and
>> offset the propeller mount holes 30 degrees.
>> Now to deburr, degrease, alodine and it's ready to mount.
>>
>> Rick Girard
>> do not archive
>>
>> <2.5 inch extension 2.jpg>
>
>
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gravity feed fuel system |
Dana,
Your gravity feed system is not a good idea. By putting an extra tank and lines
above the engine from below, you increase your risk of fire, and a number of
other things going wrong. The best and safest way to approach this is again
what Certified aircraft manufacturers do, which is to pressure feed your fuel
from below with an electric pump to the engine driven pump. The system should
be designed so that either pump alone could keep the engine running. Chances
of having two pumps fail at once are nil, and you don't have all the hazards,
and complication of what you are proposing.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269916#269916
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gravity feed fuel system |
Your argument would make more sense if so many manufacturers of high wing
aircraft didn't use gravity feed from tanks above the engine, and no fuel pump.
Over on the PPG lists, there has been a recurring discussion over the
relative safety of tanks above vs. below the engine. People scream about
the fire dangers of high mounted tanks, but in reality the only fire that
has ever happened with a high tank was when an oil soaked rag stuffed
behind the exhaust caught fire and then ignited the tank... whereas there
have been a number of fires after low mounted tanks got ruptured in a hard
landing.
And an electric pump is only possible when you have a 12V electrical
system, which I don't (nor did the Taylorcraft I used to own).
-Dana
At 07:00 PM 10/28/2009, JetPilot wrote:
>Your gravity feed system is not a good idea. By putting an extra tank and
>lines above the engine from below, you increase your risk of fire, and a
>number of other things going wrong. The best and safest way to approach
>this is again what Certified aircraft manufacturers do, which is to
>pressure feed your fuel from below with an electric pump to the engine
>driven pump. The system should be designed so that either pump alone
>could keep the engine running. Chances of having two pumps fail at once
>are nil, and you don't have all the hazards, and complication of what you
>are proposing.
--
Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gravity feed fuel system |
No, While the folks at Tennessee Propeller were helpful, they seemed to be
less knowledgeable about the engines than they were about making the engine
and propeller work. If there was a different needle valve they never
mentioned it.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> At 05:12 PM 10/28/2009, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> Dana, When my buddy, Dave, and I were flying our Kasperwing we tried that
>> experiment. Tank above carb (Mikuni) about 1', Zenoah G 25 engine. Wouldn't
>> flow enough fuel at full throttle. I have no idea why, it makes no sense, it
>> just liked the little extra fuel pressure the Mikuni pump added. We actually
>> tried it twice, convinced we had done something wrong the first time, but,
>> same result.
>>
>
> Did you change the float needle and seat? There is a different (larger)
> needle/seat used for gravity feed systems. The larger needle won't work for
> pump systems as the pressure pushes it open.
>
> -Dana
> --
> If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?
>
>
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation |
> There is not such thing as clear fuel line that even comes close to the
safety and quality of Aeroquip or High Pressure fuel injection line.
>
> Mike
Mike B/Gang:
I don't see a requirement for using high priced, high pressure fuel
injection hose when working with 3 to 5 psi.
There is such a thing as extreme overkill.
john h
mkIII
Furnace Creek, CA
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: princeton fuel sending probe |
Anyone have a picture of how they mounted theirs? The one I received
with my Grand Rapids EIS just has a rubber grommet. There are 5 holes
around the outside of the sending unit but from what I can gather it is
just a pressure fit in the tank with the rubber grommet... is this
correct. If you use the screw holes with self tappers how do you seal
it?
--------
Tony B.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Tony,
I use the Princeton and have used the westach senders both of them
with just the grommet. I haven't had any problems with either of them as
far as the fuel is concerned. I have been using them that way for
approx. 400 hours.
Larry C Oregon
HKS 66 hours
503 200 hours
447 287 hours
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gravity feed fuel system |
In a message dated 10/28/2009 5:13:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes:
Dana, When my buddy, Dave, and I were flying our Kasperwing we tried that
experiment. Tank above carb (Mikuni) about 1', Zenoah G 25 engine. Wouldn't
flow enough fuel at full throttle. I have no idea why, it makes no sense,
it just liked the little extra fuel pressure the Mikuni pump added. We
actually tried it twice, convinced we had done something wrong the first time,
but, same result.
Hi all,
Here's something to consider. Motorcycles don't use a fuel pump (at least
the older ones that I rode didn't) and their fuel tanks are only inches
above the engine/carburetors, yet they didn't seem to have a problem with
gravity fuel flow.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gravity feed fuel system |
Mike
> Have you perhaps forgotten that all small Cessnas -- BTW, a
> "Certified aircraft manufacturer" -- have gravity-fed fuel systems?
> Backed up sometimes by both mechanical and electrical fuel pumps.
> And for how many decades has this been working just fine?
> On Cessnas, Stinsons, Taylorcraft, Luscombes, Norsemen, Otters.
> Beavers, etc etc.
Perhaps no one ever told Clyde Cessna that it wasn't a good idea.
do not archive
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel |
starvation
I have been using the blue "see thru fuel lines" for the last 20
years and have never had problem - except the minor fire in the hanger
incident - hardly worth mentioning - considering the $100's of
dollars I've saved !!
At 05:41 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote:
>
>George,
>
>There is not such thing as clear fuel line that even comes close to
>the safety and quality of Aeroquip or High Pressure fuel injection
>line. The fact that you feel the need to change your fuel line
>every year is an indication of how substandard the stuff is, it does
>not matter what you paid for it. - snip - But most importantly,
>everyone should have the facts about the disadvantages and dangers
>of this type of fuel line and make an informed decision instead of
>just copying what other ultralights do.
>
>Mike
>
>--------
>"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
>you could have !!!
Sorry Beauford - I didn't get my video done - trying to survive the
R.E. market up here & hate to waste pictures.
Message 39
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filler stand |
Bad thing about plain vinyl tubing is static - better to pick up a
Oklahoma refueling station from Harbor Freight, that is Jiggler
Siphon Hose with anti-static hose and a pea shaker on the end for
starting the flow.
They have two sizes, the regular about 5/8" dia and the 7/8"
gusher. Your talking 5 gallons in short order with it. Both have
anti-static hoses, an important feature.
jerb
At 06:04 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
>Rick G/Gang:
>
>Are you refueling the space shuttle?
>
>I learned a long time ago how to refuel my airplane.
>
>Go to the hardware store. Buy 6 feet, longer or shorter if needed,
>of 1" OD X 3/4" ID vinyl tubing (clear) ;-) . Stick one end of
>it on the spout of your gas can and the other end into the fuel tank
>filler. Pick up the can up higher than the fuel tank
>filler. Gravity will take care of the rest. Fuel will flow out of
>that can like the refuel can at a NASCAR race.
>
>I carry my "Alabama credit card" with me when I fly cross country in
>case I have access to good, clean mogas. In fact, my "alabama
>credit card is in my old Dodge Cummins right now in case I need it
>to refuel my dirt bike or ATV.
>
>When I get to old to hold the 5 gal can over my head to refuel my
>mkIII, I'll go to a 2.5 gal can. If that one gets to heavy, I'll go
>to a gal can. If that one gets to heavy, I'll get some young
>whipper snapper to refuel for me, or I'll fly over to Wetumpka
>Airport and put airplane gas in it with the pump.
>
>john h
>mkIII
>Nellis AFB, Nevada
>
>
>Anyway, as you can see it works from front or back so when I enclose
>the pod for winter flying I won't have to remove a side panel to use
>it, just move it around to the front and take a little care not to
>splash on the lexan.
>
>Rick Girard
>
>
Message 40
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filler stand |
Jerb, The metal frame grounds the whole rig right to ground when I push the
legs into the ground. I never refuel in the hangar and the humidity in
Kansas keeps the static to a minimum.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 9:37 PM, jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net> wrote:
> Bad thing about plain vinyl tubing is static - better to pick up a
> Oklahoma refueling station from Harbor Freight, that is Jiggler Siphon Hose
> with anti-static hose and a pea shaker on the end for starting the flow.
> They have two sizes, the regular about 5/8" dia and the 7/8" gusher. Your
> talking 5 gallons in short order with it. Both have anti-static hoses, an
> important feature.
> jerb
>
>
> At 06:04 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
>
> Rick G/Gang:
>
> Are you refueling the space shuttle?
>
> I learned a long time ago how to refuel my airplane.
>
> Go to the hardware store. Buy 6 feet, longer or shorter if needed, of 1"
> OD X 3/4" ID vinyl tubing (clear) ;-) . Stick one end of it on the spout
> of your gas can and the other end into the fuel tank filler. Pick up the
> can up higher than the fuel tank filler. Gravity will take care of the
> rest. Fuel will flow out of that can like the refuel can at a NASCAR race.
>
> I carry my "Alabama credit card" with me when I fly cross country in case I
> have access to good, clean mogas. In fact, my "alabama credit card is in my
> old Dodge Cummins right now in case I need it to refuel my dirt bike or ATV.
>
> When I get to old to hold the 5 gal can over my head to refuel my mkIII,
> I'll go to a 2.5 gal can. If that one gets to heavy, I'll go to a gal can.
> If that one gets to heavy, I'll get some young whipper snapper to refuel for
> me, or I'll fly over to Wetumpka Airport and put airplane gas in it with the
> pump.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Nellis AFB, Nevada
>
>
> Anyway, as you can see it works from front or back so when I enclose the
> pod for winter flying I won't have to remove a side panel to use it, just
> move it around to the front and take a little care not to splash on the
> lexan.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 41
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation |
May be futile. But have to try. Be kind Matt D.
JetPilot wrote:
>
> George,
> There is not (sic) such thing as clear fuel line that even comes close to the
safety and quality of Aeroquip or High Pressure fuel injection line.
As a simple statement, who could quarrel with that? However, safety and quality
are relative to the application. I am satisfied that the quality of the clear
line that I use exceeds the requirements for my application and I feel that
it is safe to use on my aircraft. You may say/think otherwise. That's your
right.
BTW, in my fuel system, only the inside walls of the fuel line come in contact
with the fuel/oil mix. None of it is submerged. My tanks are bottom feed.
JetPilot wrote:
> The fact that you feel the need to change your fuel line every year is an indication
of how substandard the stuff is, it does not matter what you paid for
it.
Bad assumption, Mike. In spite of what you may think of others' intelligence,
if I felt it was substandard, I wouldn't have it on my plane.
The reason that I change it annually is the same as the reason that I use it in
the first place. It is "clear". Running fuel/oil mix through it, age/time,
sunlight all create discoloration. Discoloration reduces the "advantage" of being
able to see through it.
Witness a condition that Beauford discovered with his system. Being able to see
the build up of an unknown substance on the inside wall of his fuel line, may
have, repeat, may have, prevented an engine out. (See attached photo.)
If any of that crude had made its way to the bowl of his single carb, R447, he
very likely would have heard only the air rushing over his VGs.
I have since seen a similar (not quite as severe) build up in my system. Beauford
and I use different fuel line, use fuel from different sources, we do both
use the same 2 stroke oil (as does a large number of the 2 stroke engine operators)
and both pre-mix. The only common denominator for us is storage of our
aircraft in very warm (sometimes damned hot) conditions here in SW FL. While
it is a guess, the heat may be the source/contributor to the crude. Heat, fuel
additives, etc... who knows. Only know that the crude was there and it was seen
through the clear fuel line and would have not been seen with non-clear line.
Hope your storage facility is nice and cool. Your mean temp in South FL is about
5 deg higher than ours.
Jet Pilot wrote:
> How many cars do you have to change the fuel lines out once a year , How many
certified airplanes do you have to replace the fuel lines every year ?? None,
because no manufacturer would risk building such a substandard safety item
into an item that is sold in the open market. More importantly, the clear fuel
line would not pass any safety standard in either cars or planes.
Your analogy to cars or certified airplanes and their applicable standards. Do
cars and certified airplanes have the same criteria for safety/operation standards?
Do all cars and all certified airplanes use the same fuel line? Are compression
checks required on auto engines every year? No? Different standards
based on the application maybe?
Jet Pilot wrote:
> Even if you do change your line out once a year, the cheap clear toy fuel line
is still very fragile, prone to crushing and a number of other things.
Admittedly different grades of fuel line are available. Some I wouldn't put on
the aerator of a tank that housed fish that I didn't even like. But I'm not
sure how I can make it any clearer. I DO NOT USE, nor do I recommend the use
of "cheap clear toy fuel line". Your inference is that all clear fuel line
is "cheap clear toy fuel line." I believe you to be mistaken and misleading to
readers.
Jet Pilot wrote:
> I fully support your right to make your own choice in fuel lines.
I appreciate your support of my rights.
Jet Pilot wrote:
> I hope you keep a close eye on it, keep changing it, and have no problems.
Not to worry. It is my duty to myself and my family to keep a "close eye on it"
(that's why I like clear!), keep changing it (so I can continue to see through
it!) and keep it at the no problem level to the best of my ability.
Jet Pilot wrote:
> But most importantly, everyone should have the facts about the disadvantages
and dangers of this type of fuel line and make an informed decision instead of
just copying what other ultralights do.
And as long as there are a multitude of contributors to this list, who are willing
to share their experiences/views/etc..... the reader will have to glean "the
facts". With the various views that are presented, I am confident that most
people understand that there isn't any one individual who has a corner on the
"facts". Not even if they be ultralighters who bend tubes or jet pilots who
overshoot their destination by 150 miles.
I'm done! Not worth nearly what you paid for it!
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269946#269946
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuel_line_136.jpg
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|