---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/08/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:49 AM - Re: Re: Tuft video (Richard Girard) 2. 03:09 AM - Re: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits... (Richard Girard) 3. 04:57 AM - solid vs fabric leading edge (PCKing) 4. 06:29 AM - Re: another grass strip takeoff (cristalclear13) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: solid vs fabric leading edge (robert bean) 6. 07:05 AM - Re; solid vs. fabric leading edge (william sullivan) 7. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: Tuft video (robert bean) 8. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Tuft video (Richard Girard) 9. 08:15 AM - Solid vs fabric leading edge (Richard Girard) 10. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Tuft video (HGRAFF@aol.com) 11. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Tuft video (Richard Girard) 12. 01:00 PM - For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. (fzak97) 13. 04:54 PM - Re: Re; solid vs. fabric leading edge (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) 14. 10:54 PM - Trim System Question (HGRAFF@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tuft video From: Richard Girard Richard, Herb posited the same idea and I haven't had time to look for any research into how far an a disturbance in front of a rotating prop projects so I can only speculate. I think it has more to do with the airflow coming from under the pod. The angle between panels on the bottom is at least as large as that between the sides, at least as measured with my trusty Mk I eyeball, so there is probably quite a lot of turbulent flow over the aft bottom panel combined with its narrowing toward the rear accounts for most of the upward flow on the side. I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a little I'll tuft up that side and do another test. Rick On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > Thanks for the tuft video, very informative. Here's a question: I wonder if > the shock wave that apparently precedes the prop may have some effect on > what the tufts are doing. If memory serves me right you have a 582 so the > prop on the side of the fuselage that the camera is filming would be moving > from the bottom around towards the wing underside. Standing at the tail, a > clockwise rotation. > I suppose very unlikely up towards the doors, but perhaps it could affect > at least some of the tufting? > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271647#271647 > > > b ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits... From: Richard Girard Richard, Yes, I know it's a fork mounted fairing. Did the crotch rocket thing in the mid 80's and couldn't keep my fist out of it. Got the Interceptor up to very high 130's twice before good sense took hold. Sure was fun at the time, though. Rick On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > [quote="rickofudall"]Cool looking rice rocket fairing. > > Rick Girard > > Rick - Dude - you need to get with it. That was a crotch rocket fairing. I > know, my nephew has one on his Suzuki crotch rocket. > > This is a rice rocket. Especially when the Good Lookin' Old Poop is driving > it... > > Took these yesterday evening, Sweet Thing kidnapped me and took me to the > most incredible Bed & Breakfast you can imagine. The owner's husband left > her, she is doing the B&B thing to try and pay the bills, but is charging > almost nothing, so I told her I would help spread the word, here is her > website for this place. > http://peaceofheaventn.weebly.com/ > > Forgive the non-Kolb related, it looked like a slow evening... > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (42oldPoops) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271651#271651 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1140692_large_169.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1140712_large_209.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1140650_large_719.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:08 AM PST US From: "PCKing" Subject: Kolb-List: solid vs fabric leading edge Has anyone built a Kolb with a solid leading edge? The variable airfoil caused by fabric draping between the ribs can't be good for performance. Is the difference significant? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:49 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: another grass strip takeoff From: "cristalclear13" Thank you. My friend, Claude, took this picture just before I took off. Merry Dawn (my plane) does seem to be happiest on the grass. :) -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271678#271678 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolbdawn_114.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:57 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: solid vs fabric leading edge yes, myself included. and no, the variable airfoil does not diminish the performance. In fact it does reduce the wing thickness (and drag) by a small percentage. and IMO likely helps retain air attachment. I have leading edge tin on the top surface only. It does reinforce the ribs without the use of additional L struts. BB On 8, Nov 2009, at 7:56 AM, PCKing wrote: > > > Has anyone built a Kolb with a solid leading edge? The variable > airfoil caused by fabric draping between the ribs can't be good for > performance. Is the difference significant? > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:58 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re; solid vs. fabric leading edge - My original Firestar was built with a solid leading edge.- The builde r used 12' wide thin aluminum, maybe flashing, over the Kolb ribs.- This was used on the plane up to January, 2008 when it was flipped over during a storm- tie down broke.- My replacement wings have the standard Kolb "sta rving horse" design.- I inquired to the List about it, and was told that it makes no noticeable difference in performance.- The solid edge was tri ed about the middle to late 1980's.- If I remember the responses correctl y, it was used more for appearances. - ------------------------- ---------------------- Bill Sul livan ------------------------- -----------------------Windso r Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ---------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:14 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tuft video An experiment that wouldn't be too difficult: screw a rectangular flat plate on the bottom of the fuselage beginning at the wide spot and extending to the prop plane of rotation. Tuft check sides again. BB On 8, Nov 2009, at 5:48 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > Richard, Herb posited the same idea and I haven't had time to look > for any research into how far an a disturbance in front of a > rotating prop projects so I can only speculate. > I think it has more to do with the airflow coming from under the > pod. The angle between panels on the bottom is at least as large as > that between the sides, at least as measured with my trusty Mk I > eyeball, so there is probably quite a lot of turbulent flow over the > aft bottom panel combined with its narrowing toward the rear > accounts for most of the upward flow on the side. > I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of > the airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies > down a little I'll tuft up that side and do another test. > > Rick > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Richard Pike > wrote: > > Thanks for the tuft video, very informative. Here's a question: I > wonder if the shock wave that apparently precedes the prop may have > some effect on what the tufts are doing. If memory serves me right > you have a 582 so the prop on the side of the fuselage that the > camera is filming would be moving from the bottom around towards the > wing underside. Standing at the tail, a clockwise rotation. > I suppose very unlikely up towards the doors, but perhaps it could > affect at least some of the tufting? > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271647#271647 > > > ========== > ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com > ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > le, List Admin. > ========== > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > > b > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:01 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tuft video From: Richard Girard Bob, I think my idea is easier. :-) All I have to do it make another camera mount for the other side. Rick On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:31 AM, robert bean wrote: > An experiment that wouldn't be too difficult: > screw a rectangular flat plate on the bottom of the fuselage beginning at > the wide spot and extending to the prop > plane of rotation. Tuft check sides again. > BB > > On 8, Nov 2009, at 5:48 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > > Richard, Herb posited the same idea and I haven't had time to look for any > research into how far an a disturbance in front of a rotating prop projects > so I can only speculate. > I think it has more to do with the airflow coming from under the pod. The > angle between panels on the bottom is at least as large as that between the > sides, at least as measured with my trusty Mk I eyeball, so there is > probably quite a lot of turbulent flow over the aft bottom panel combined > with its narrowing toward the rear accounts for most of the upward flow on > the side. > I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the > airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a > little I'll tuft up that side and do another test. > > Rick > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > >> >> Thanks for the tuft video, very informative. Here's a question: I wonder >> if the shock wave that apparently precedes the prop may have some effect on >> what the tufts are doing. If memory serves me right you have a 582 so the >> prop on the side of the fuselage that the camera is filming would be moving >> from the bottom around towards the wing underside. Standing at the tail, a >> clockwise rotation. >> I suppose very unlikely up towards the doors, but perhaps it could affect >> at least some of the tufting? >> >> Richard Pike >> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271647#271647 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> le, List Admin. >> ========== >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> >> >> >> b > > * > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Solid vs fabric leading edge From: Richard Girard I found NACA TN 428 "CHARACTERISTICS OF AN AIRFOIL AS AFFECTED BY FABRIC SAG" dated 1932. Here's the summary. "The results of these tests indicate that the usual sagging of the wing covering between ribs has a very small effect on the aerodynamic characteristics of an airfoil." Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:43 AM PST US From: HGRAFF@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tuft video I make a prediction for the right side tufts. They will point uphill same as the left side, steeper with more power. I have a test suggestion, after you repeat your tests, add this one or two, low or no power, get the speeds by descending to see what the tufts are doing. Yes, there seems to be a lot of turbulence indicated behind the cabin. If that turbulence stays there even with low/idle power setting, it would rule out prop pulsing, yes? Herb Graff Mark III, 246KT In a message dated 11/8/2009 10:35:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, slyck@frontiernet.net writes: I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a little I'll tuft up that side and do another test. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tuft video From: Richard Girard Already done that Herb, the landing shot was done with the engine at idle. Figure at 60 mph that's what, 85 feet per second give or take, I can't see a shock wave, turbulence, whatever, off the prop extending forward against that, but I won't know until I film it. I'll have to think about doing an engine out landing. If I do, I'll borrow the wife's little camera and film both sides at the same time. I guess if I shoot for the middle of the field I can do it without seat cushion damage. Now if this wind would just lay off. Rick On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:29 PM, wrote: > I make a prediction for the right side tufts. They will point uphill same > as the left side, steeper with more power. I have a test suggestion, after > you repeat your tests, add this one or two, low or no power, get the speeds > by descending to see what the tufts are doing. Yes, there seems to be a lot > of turbulence indicated behind the cabin. If that turbulence stays there > even with low/idle power setting, it would rule out prop pulsing, yes? > > Herb Graff > Mark III, 246KT > > > In a message dated 11/8/2009 10:35:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > slyck@frontiernet.net writes: > > I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the > airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a > little I'll tuft up that side and do another test. > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:37 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. From: "fzak97" Outstanding Promo: Buy 2 Products And Get 1 Free Product. Welcome to YAZCK LLC, one of the leading online resellers and distributor of various consumer electronics. We have operation centres in North America and Finland, which allows us to offer most updated products at the most competitive prices. Our strategic warehouse located in WEMBLEY, UK enable us to provide very fast delivery service to all global regions. We take the service we provide to our customers very seriously, you can be rest assured that you will receive the best service, products and prices when dealing with YAZCK LLC. Please Note: You can Add Us on Yahoo Messenger (yazckllc@yahoo.com) to chat with us. 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All our products are factory sealed with complete accessories and covered by a one-year warranty from Manufacturer, we offer our customers hassle-free returns/exchanges. If for any reason you are not satisfied with an item purchased from us, please return the item within 21 days* of receipt for an exchange or refund. Give us prior notice to any questions at yazckllc@yahoo.com and we will be happy to assist you. Your's Sincerely, Yazck LLC / Mr. Fahim S. Karzai Email: yazckllc@yahoo.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271730#271730 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:48 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re; solid vs. fabric leading edge In a message dated 11/8/2009 10:06:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, williamtsullivan@att.net writes: My replacement wings have the standard Kolb "starving horse" design. Hi Bill, That's the first time I've heard of Homers wing looking like a "starved horse", but it's a great analogy. hehehe Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:33 PM PST US From: HGRAFF@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Trim System Question With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs. Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between. I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the center of the operating settings. So my question: Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. I will appreciate your comments. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.