---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/09/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:33 AM - Fund Raiser List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle) 1. 02:53 AM - Re: For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. (pj.ladd) 2. 03:51 AM - Re: Trim System Question (Richard Girard) 3. 04:53 AM - Re: solid vs fabric leading edge (Thom Riddle) 4. 06:54 AM - Re: For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. (Charlie England) 5. 09:06 AM - Re: Trim System Question (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 6. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: solid vs fabric leading edge (Richard Girard) 7. 09:42 AM - Re: Trim System Question (HGRAFF@aol.com) 8. 10:03 AM - Re: Trim System Question (Richard Girard) 9. 01:21 PM - Re: Trim System Question (Richard Pike) 10. 04:58 PM - Re: Trim System Question (chris davis) 11. 05:14 PM - Re: Trim System Question (zeprep251@aol.com) 12. 05:16 PM - Re: Trim System Question (zeprep251@aol.com) 13. 05:53 PM - Pulling a Kolb Trailer (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 14. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Trim System Question (Richard Girard) 15. 06:22 PM - Re: Trim System Question (HGRAFF@aol.com) 16. 06:54 PM - Re: Trim System Question (HGRAFF@aol.com) 17. 08:12 PM - Re: Trim System Question (chris davis) 18. 11:05 PM - "Starved horse" or "Solid"...... (Nick Cassara) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:12 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Fund Raiser List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution Today! Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors (LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment tool as your typical magazine subscription! Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:43 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. Outstanding Promo: Buy 2 Products And Get 1 Free Product.>> Is Matte letting adverts in now? Can things be that bad?. Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question From: Richard Girard Herb, What engine are you running? Rick Girard do not archive On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:43 AM, wrote: > > With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb > Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the > control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the > front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a > good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs. > > Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the > way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring > system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now > the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between. > > I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with > slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into > the center of the operating settings. > > So my question: Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there > better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. > > I will appreciate your comments. > > Herb Graff > Kolb Mark III 246KT > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: solid vs fabric leading edge From: "Thom Riddle" Rick, Did the 1932 study indicate the nature of the slight difference in performance? I.E., stall slower/higher, cruise speed slower higher, etc. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x31 Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. - Isaac Asimov Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271877#271877 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:13 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. pj.ladd wrote: > > > Outstanding Promo: Buy 2 Products And Get 1 Free Product.>> > > Is Matte letting adverts in now? Can things be that bad?. > > Pat Highly likely that it just slipped past his spam filters. It happens so rarely that it really stands out when you see one. Big contrast with lists on sites like Yahoo, where the ads take up more room than the emails. Charlie ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:28 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Herb Kolbs are by definition unstable, easy to control but but need to be flown all the time. First try adjusting the trim cable to find that point where your plane will fly more level in a notch. It would really be nice to be able to fold maps in flight on cross countries. So far I have been able to trim the plane for 3-5 seconds but that has been it. Even with good stability thermals tend to upset things a bunch. As with any design there are trade offs and stability is one that falls short. Try the softer springs and let us know. I have also seen a really good elevator trim tab system that was purchased from Rans Aircraft that might also help. Maybe Steve Spence could share his success with his Rans trim system. In Florida for the winter with my airplane. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: HGRAFF@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Trim System Question With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs. Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between. I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the center of the operating settings. So my question: Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. I will appreciate your comments. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: solid vs fabric leading edge From: Richard Girard No, it was a wind tunnel investigation. Rick On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 6:53 AM, Thom Riddle wrote: > > Rick, > > Did the 1932 study indicate the nature of the slight difference in > performance? I.E., stall slower/higher, cruise speed slower higher, etc. > > -------- > Thom Riddle > Buffalo, NY > Kolb Slingshot SS-021 > Jabiru 2200A #1574 > Tennessee Prop 64x31 > > Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's > troublesome. > - Isaac Asimov > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271877#271877 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:46 AM PST US From: HGRAFF@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Rick, I'm running with a 2 cycle, forced air cooled, 65 HP, dual magneto type ignition, Hirth engine, that so far with 12 hours on it (because of run-in time etc), is purring (screaming?) away without a hitch. Lubrication is with the recommended 100:1 mix with Blue Max oil. Had to upgrade the Battery from 160 to 310 CCA so the starter would always go through the compression. Now cranking speed may be enough to taxi with. Yeah, I would rather fly with the older four-stroke Revmaster VW, that was first mounted, but which badly put the A/C out of CG. (Yes, I know about the VW powered Kolbs) Too bad, the sound of the Revmaster at idle very much matched a P51 taxiing by. I have a video with that marvelous sound and could upload it, if I find out how to do that. Herb Graff Mark III 246KTdo In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:51:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes: Herb, What engine are you running? Rick Girard do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question From: Richard Girard Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like. Rick Girard On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, wrote: > Rick, I'm running with a 2 cycle, forced air cooled, 65 HP, dual magneto > type ignition, Hirth engine, that so far with 12 hours on it (because of > run-in time etc), is purring (screaming?) away without a hitch. Lubrication > is with the recommended 100:1 mix with Blue Max oil. Had to upgrade the > Battery from 160 to 310 CCA so the starter would always go through the > compression. Now cranking speed may be enough to taxi with. Yeah, I would > rather fly with the older four-stroke Revmaster VW, that was first mounted, > but which badly put the A/C out of CG. (Yes, I know about the VW powered > Kolbs) Too bad, the sound of the Revmaster at idle very much matched a P51 > taxiing by. I have a video with that marvelous sound and could upload it, if > I find out how to do that. > > Herb Graff > Mark III 246KTdo > > In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:51:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes: > > Herb, What engine are you running? > > Rick Girard > do not archive > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:56 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question From: "Richard Pike" [quote="rickofudall"]Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like. Rick Girard Rick, I am also using a 582 but with the stock thrust line. So you have raised the aft end 1/4" and the changes you have noticed are...? Details please? And the 582 and the 618 mounts differ how? Thanks, Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271969#271969 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:18 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Herb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it would fly straight and level for several minuets but the bank trim -would have to be controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable -and need to be flown all the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using the elevator trim to take pictures an d it worked well.Just my 2cents .-Chris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________ _________________=0AFrom: "HGRAFF@aol.com" =0ATo: kolb-list @matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, November 9, 2009 1:43:23 AM=0ASubject: Kolb-Lis t: Trim System Question=0A=0A=0A=0AWith about 3 hours of initial test flyin g completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least i n 2 axes. When I let go of the control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let-go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Ail eron and Rudder trim tabs.=0A=0AExcept there is a slight pitch control prob lem. With pitch settings all the way to the front, (at which point some sla ck just started in the spring system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. Wh en set to the first notch, now the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need s ome setting in between.=0A=0AI'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace t he two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitche n longer to get more into the center of the operating settings.=0A=0ASo my question:- Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there bette r (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. =0A=0AI will appreciate- ==== =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question From: zeprep251@aol.com Herb, Pitch trim sensitivity really should not be a problem.As you burn off fuel or when you add a passenger,the trim requirements will change.It also cha nges with power settings due to the high thrust line.Under certain conditi ons you may even add 1 notch of flap to bring the nose down as I have done when heavy with fuel and light with passengers.Some times just releasing the flap handle from it's fully retracted notch and letting it float has a trimming effect.The effort required to maintain level flight with stick pressure is very light. You can make those changes to the spring system or even a trim tab on the elevator,but I would wait until you can carry a passenger or put a sa nd bag in the right seat and see how it affects the trim before making any mods to the system. G.Aman MK-3 C Jabiru 2200A 490hrs -----Original Message----- From: HGRAFF@aol.com Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:43 am Subject: Kolb-List: Trim System Question With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the co ntrol stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front moun ted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs. Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all th e way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring sy stem), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nos e wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between. I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the center of the operating settings. So my question: Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. I will appreciate your comments. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question From: zeprep251@aol.com Rick, 4 weeks and counting till departure.How did the van handle the trip with the trailer? G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Herb Kolbs are by definition unstable, easy to control but but need to be flown all the time. First try adjusting the trim cable to find that point where your plane will fly more level in a notch. It would really be nice to be able to fold maps in flight on cross countries. So far I have been able to trim the pla ne for 3-5 seconds but that has been it. Even with good stability thermals tend to upset things a bunch. As with any design there are trade offs and stabilit y is one that falls short. Try the softer springs and let us know. I have al so seen a really good elevator trim tab system that was purchased from Rans Aircraft that might also help. Maybe Steve Spence could share his success with his Rans trim system. In Florida for the winter with my airplane. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: HGRAFF@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Trim System Question With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs. Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spr ing system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between. I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more in to the center of the operating settings. So my question: Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. I will appreciate your comments. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== Rick ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:53 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Kolb-List: Pulling a Kolb Trailer Gary I have a Toyota Sienna (van) pulling my VW powered MKIIIC from Michigan to Florida in a enclosed custom trailer. It went very well. At times I would forget the trailer was there. I had to slow to 60-65 and lock the transmission in forth gear (no over drive). The main issue is wind if it gets strong the trailer gets pushed around bad. With the winds Ida is kicking up right now it would be no fun at all and might even have to stop. We normally take two days but with the trailer we did it in just over two and a half. My wife drove about 1/3 of the trip and was surprised how well it went. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: zeprep251@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:15 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Rick, 4 weeks and counting till departure.How did the van handle the trip with the trailer? G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Herb Kolbs are by definition unstable, easy to control but but need to be flown all the time. First try adjusting the trim cable to find that point where your plane will fly more level in a notch. It would really be nice to be able to fold maps in flight on cross countries. So far I have been able to trim the plane for 3-5 seconds but that has been it. Even with good stability thermals tend to upset things a bunch. As with any design there are trade offs and stability is one that falls short. Try the softer springs and let us know. I have also seen a really good elevator trim tab system that was purchased from Rans Aircraft that might also help. Maybe Steve Spence could share his success with his Rans trim system. In Florida for the winter with my airplane. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: HGRAFF@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Trim System Question With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs. Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between. I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the center of the operating settings. So my question: Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. I will appreciate your comments. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ttp://forums.matronics.com Rick ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question From: Richard Girard Sorry, I guessed I missed that part about the difference. It seems to take a lot of the pitch change with throttle out of it. The big difference I remember without getting the plans out is the the vibration dampers are mounted with the deep side up on the 618 mount and the short side is up with the 582. Okay, I got the plans out and checked. Originally my plane had a version of the mount that was a bastardized version of the 618 mount, short side of the isolator up, a 2" spacer tube and shim plates. Now it just has the isolators long side up and no tubes. The overall effect was to lower the engine about 2", although it is still about 1" higher than the plans call out for the 582. I seem to remember it was John H. who mentioned changing the thrust line by putting shims between the engine plate and the aft isolators, but my memory could be playing tricks there, too. Rick On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > [quote="rickofudall"]Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane > I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as > low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory > recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle > of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop > tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like. > > Rick Girard > > Rick, I am also using a 582 but with the stock thrust line. So you have > raised the aft end 1/4" and the changes you have noticed are...? Details > please? And the 582 and the 618 mounts differ how? > Thanks, > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271969#271969 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:50 PM PST US From: HGRAFF@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Yes Rick, I'd surely would like to see your engine setup. Please send direct to my Email. Our Kolb, (a small club project, though I'm the only one flying it so far), uses a 3/8 interposer plate to translate the hole patterns, for an otherwise standard engine mount. This plate also has heat bent tabs to mount the muffler to. It took two MAP Gas torches to apply enough heat for the bending operation. A not very good picture of our engine arrangement is here: If I get a chance I'll take a better close-up of the mount, though there is really nothing extraordinary about it. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT In a message dated 11/9/2009 1:05:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes: Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like. Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:24 PM PST US From: HGRAFF@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Chris, Thanks for your input on the trim. Hey, several minutes with hands free is the very most one can expect. I can just see myself with a bunchie cord around the stick and my right knee, my arms crossed and a silly smile on my face. That Rans elevator trim is intriguing. Have you pictures of you installation or basic references to it. The Kolb is back under roof for the winter and there could be time for an appropriate mod. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT In a message dated 11/9/2009 7:58:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, capedavis@yahoo.com writes: Herb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it would fly straight and level for several minuets but the bank trim would have to be controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable and need to be flown all the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using the elevator trim to take pictures and it worked well.Just my 2cents . Chris Davis KXP 503 492 hrs Glider Pilot Disabled from crash building Firefly ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:57 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Herb , did not take any pics of my installation--- but you can see th e product athttp://www.shoprans.com/ElevatorTrim.asp-I think the trim tab was 24 inches and I cut it down to 12 inches the trim wheel was just like the "old cessna" trim wheel I mounted the wheel just ahead of-the throttl e-it was an easy and quick-job and worked well for me for a few years u ntill I sold the KXP. probably still isChris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlid er Pilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________ ____________________=0AFrom: "HGRAFF@aol.com" =0ATo: kolb-l ist@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:40:14 PM=0ASubject: Re: K olb-List: Trim System Question=0A=0AChris,=0A=0AThanks for your input on th e trim. Hey, several minutes with hands free is the very most one can expec t. I can just see myself with a bunchie cord around the stick and my right knee, my arms crossed and a silly smile on my face.-That Rans elevator tr im is intriguing. Have you pictures of you installation or basic -referen ces to it.-The Kolb is back under roof for the winter and there-could b e time for an appropriate mod.=0A=0AHerb Graff=0AKolb Mark III 246KT=0A=0AI n a message dated 11/9/2009 7:58:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, capedavis@y ahoo.com writes:=0AHerb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it woul d fly straight and level for several minuets but the bank trim -would hav e to be controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable -and need to be flo wn all the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using the elevator trim to take pictures and it worked well.Just my 2cents .-Chris Davis=0A>KXP 5 03 492 hrs=0A>Glider Pilot=0A>Disabled from crash building Firefly =0A _ -======================== ==== =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:48 PM PST US From: "Nick Cassara" Subject: Kolb-List: "Starved horse" or "Solid"...... Hello Kolbsters, I am not an engineer of any type, but it is hard for me to believe that if the numbers were run that the solid wing would not out lift the starved horse wing. It is my understanding that the thickness of the wing is one of the factors that affect how much a wing can lift. That said, the different may not be that great. Clear skies, Nick Cassara Proto-type Kolbra Under reconstruction Palmer, Alaska ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.