---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/10/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:18 AM - Re: Re: Trim System Question () 2. 02:04 AM - Re: For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. (pj.ladd) 3. 07:23 AM - Re: Trim System Question (b young) 4. 07:23 AM - Re: Trim System Question (russ kinne) 5. 08:55 AM - Fw: Pulling a Kolb Trailer (zeprep251@AOL.COM) 6. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Trim System Question (pj.ladd) 7. 10:28 AM - Re: Trim System Question (Dana Hague) 8. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Trim System Question (robert bean) 9. 11:10 PM - Re: Re: Trim System Question () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:37 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question I have changed the thrust line on my MK111c several times. I have lifted the front of the engine up and then put it back and lifted the back up,I have not moved it more than a third { 8 mm } of a inch at either end at any time.The changes have made very little difference. The engine is pitched forward a little now as that gives me more clearance at the back of the pod and boom for the propeller . The intention was to reduce noise .The only difference I can fell with this set up is that if you reduce power slowly the nose of the kolb will lift slightly before dropping . Its made so little difference that I have not bothered to change it for the last 200hrs of flying . Downunder MK111c ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question Sorry, I guessed I missed that part about the difference. It seems to take a lot of the pitch change with throttle out of it. The big difference I remember without getting the plans out is the the vibration dampers are mounted with the deep side up on the 618 mount and the short side is up with the 582. Okay, I got the plans out and checked. Originally my plane had a version of the mount that was a bastardized version of the 618 mount, short side of the isolator up, a 2" spacer tube and shim plates. Now it just has the isolators long side up and no tubes. The overall effect was to lower the engine about 2", although it is still about 1" higher than the plans call out for the 582. I seem to remember it was John H. who mentioned changing the thrust line by putting shims between the engine plate and the aft isolators, but my memory could be playing tricks there, too. Rick On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Richard Pike wrote: [quote="rickofudall"]Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like. Rick Girard Rick, I am also using a 582 but with the stock thrust line. So you have raised the aft end 1/4" and the changes you have noticed are...? Details please? And the 582 and the 618 mounts differ how? Thanks, Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271969#271969 ========== ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. ========== arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:56 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: For Sale Samsung I8000 Omnia II 16GB Unlocked Gsm Phone. Highly likely that it just slipped past his spam filters.>> Let us hope so. The ad. free environment makes a pleasant change from some. Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:49 AM PST US From: "b young" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Herb If there is a way that you can move the trim spring closer to the pivot point on the elevator control,,, (less mechanical advantage) then it would require more movement on the trim control to achieve the desired results. This would give you more set points for trim, and less change between settings. Boyd Young Kolb MkIII ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:49 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question I do not have a Kolb yet but am a photographer, and need to have hands-free flying for more than couple seconds. Now with good elevator trim and the stick clamped between my legs, how long do you think I can take my hands off the controls? I admit I'm spoiled; had a much-modified 170 for years, and once flew for a full 30 minutes without touching the wheel! Calm air, just before dawn, I had some dihedral, and all worked beautifully. Just kept on course with the rudder. Plane very slowly climbed as fuel burned off. Russ K do not archive On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:11 PM, chris davis wrote: > Herb , did not take any pics of my installation but you can see > the product athttp://www.shoprans.com/ElevatorTrim.asp I think the > trim tab was 24 inches and I cut it down to 12 inches the trim > wheel was just like the "old cessna" trim wheel I mounted the wheel > just ahead of the throttle it was an easy and quick job and worked > well for me for a few years untill I sold the KXP. probably still is > Chris Davis > KXP 503 492 hrs > Glider Pilot > Disabled from crash building Firefly > > > From: "HGRAFF@aol.com" > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:40:14 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question > > Chris, > > Thanks for your input on the trim. Hey, several minutes with hands > free is the very most one can expect. I can just see myself with a > bunchie cord around the stick and my right knee, my arms crossed > and a silly smile on my face. That Rans elevator trim is > intriguing. Have you pictures of you installation or basic > references to it. The Kolb is back under roof for the winter and > there could be time for an appropriate mod. > > Herb Graff > Kolb Mark III 246KT > > In a message dated 11/9/2009 7:58:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > capedavis@yahoo.com writes: > Herb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it would fly > straight and level for several minuets but the bank trim would > have to be controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable and need > to be flown all the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using > the elevator trim to take pictures and it worked well.Just my 2cents . > Chris Davis > KXP 503 492 hrs > Glider Pilot > Disabled from crash building Firefly > www.awww.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow > target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.co== > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:11 AM PST US Subject: Fwd: Kolb-List: Pulling a Kolb Trailer From: zeprep251@AOL.COM Rick, Good deal! Hope we can take some day trips this winter.There are quite a few Kolbers in south Fla. See you after Thanksgiving! G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 8:53 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Pulling a Kolb Trailer Gary I have a Toyota Sienna (van) pulling my VW powered MKIIIC from Michigan to Florida in a enclosed custom trailer. It went very well. At times I would forget the trailer was there. I had to slow to 60-6 5 and lock the transmission in forth gear (no over drive). The main issue is win d if it gets strong the trailer gets pushed around bad. With the winds Ida is kicking up right now it would be no fun at all and might even have to stop. We nor mally take two days but with the trailer we did it in just over two and a half. My wife drove about 1/3 of the trip and was surprised how well it went. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: zeprep251@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:15 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Rick, 4 weeks and counting till departure.How did the van handle the trip with the trailer? G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question Herb Kolbs are by definition unstable, easy to control but but need to be flown all the time. First try adjusting the trim cable to find that poin t where your plane will fly more level in a notch. It would really be nice to be able to fold maps in flight on cross countries. So far I have been able to trim the plane for 3-5 seconds but that has been it. Even with good stab ility thermals tend to upset things a bunch. As with any design there are trad e offs and stability is one that falls short. Try the softer springs and let us know. I have also seen a really good elevator trim tab system that was purchased from Rans Aircraft that might also help. Maybe Steve Spence co uld share his success with his Rans trim system. In Florida for the winter with my airplane. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: HGRAFF@aol.com kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Trim System Question With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from th e front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs. Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch , now the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between. I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the center of the operating settings. So my question: Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. I will appreciate your comments. Herb Graff Kolb Mark III 246KT href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ttp://forums.matronics.com Rick href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:40 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question The intention was to reduce noise >> Hi there, Did it? The farmer who owns the field I fly from is constantly wickering on about the noise from the Kolb. He says it is worse that the Challenger I used to have and that got him pretty hot under the collar. Noise seems to be built in with a pusher configuration. Not noise in the cockpit, that can be dealt with by decent headphones , but the noise which causes complaints from the neighbours. i cocked up a landing the other day and decided on another circuit for practice. I am reluctant to climb out at less than full throttle so went out at full chat and the farmer was waiting for me when i landed, looking down his nose. Of course he flies a Cub which makes no more noise than a sewing machine. Does a larger a gap between the trailing edge and the prop help? Pat ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:30 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Trim System Question At 10:23 AM 11/10/2009, russ kinne wrote: >I do not have a Kolb yet but am a photographer, and need to have >hands-free flying for more than couple seconds. Now with good elevator >trim and the stick clamped between my legs, how long do you think I can >take my hands off the controls? My UltraStar is reasonably pitch stable, though all I have to do is reach forward to adjust the radio and it pitches down, and vice versa. Pitch stability is mainly a matter of sufficiently forward C.G. It's in roll that it's not stable at all, unsurprising because of lack of dihedral. -Dana -- If it were truly the thought that counted, more women would be pregnant. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:26 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question Pat, you should record both the sound from his cub and your kolb and listen to them. It may be more a matter of frequency than decibel level. BB do not archive On 10, Nov 2009, at 12:10 PM, pj.ladd wrote: > The intention was to reduce noise >> > > Hi there, > > Did it? The farmer who owns the field I fly from is constantly > wickering on about the noise from the Kolb. He says it is worse that > the Challenger I used to have and that got him pretty hot under the > collar. > > Noise seems to be built in with a pusher configuration. Not noise in > the cockpit, that can be dealt with by decent headphones , but the > noise which causes complaints from the neighbours. > > i cocked up a landing the other day and decided on another circuit > for practice. I am reluctant to climb out at less than full throttle > so went out at full chat and the farmer was waiting for me when i > landed, looking down his nose. Of course he flies a Cub which makes > no more noise than a sewing machine. > > Does a larger a gap between the trailing edge and the prop help? > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:02 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question Hard to tell when you are inside. those on the ground have never said it made less noise , but that the noise had changed. it lost that chop chop beat. {sounded less like a helicopter} As far as farmers go its been sort of agreed that farm animals get used to the noise very quickly ,so if the same aircraft fly's out of the same place even race horses soon learn to ignore the sound ,its the visiting aircraft that cause the problems even if they are super quite super cubs.Take the cocky for a ride , they seem to be more forgiving after that .The pusher sure does have a beat all of its own. Downunder MK111c ----- Original Message ----- From: pj.ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:10 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trim System Question The intention was to reduce noise >> Hi there, Did it? The farmer who owns the field I fly from is constantly wickering on about the noise from the Kolb. He says it is worse that the Challenger I used to have and that got him pretty hot under the collar. Noise seems to be built in with a pusher configuration. Not noise in the cockpit, that can be dealt with by decent headphones , but the noise which causes complaints from the neighbours. i cocked up a landing the other day and decided on another circuit for practice. I am reluctant to climb out at less than full throttle so went out at full chat and the farmer was waiting for me when i landed, looking down his nose. Of course he flies a Cub which makes no more noise than a sewing machine. Does a larger a gap between the trailing edge and the prop help? 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