---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/02/09: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:00 AM - There I was on downwind (Richard Girard) 2. 05:01 AM - Re: Powerfin props (Rick Lewis) 3. 05:55 AM - Re: Powerfin props (frank.goodnight) 4. 06:53 AM - Re: FSII cage is back together (John Hauck) 5. 07:23 AM - Re: Tire Balance (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: There I was on downwind (John Hauck) 7. 08:23 AM - Re: There I was on downwind (frank.goodnight) 8. 08:40 AM - Re: There I was on downwind (Ralph B) 9. 08:53 AM - bad practice (dalewhelan) 10. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: There I was on downwind (frank.goodnight) 11. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: There I was on downwind (John Hauck) 12. 09:34 AM - Gps (frank.goodnight) 13. 09:45 AM - Re: There I was on downwind (Richard Pike) 14. 09:59 AM - Nauga Field Fly-Around - Moved 1 week back (John Bickham) 15. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: There I was on downwind (John Hauck) 16. 02:48 PM - Re: FSII cage is back together (olendorf) 17. 03:07 PM - Re: Tire Balance (GeoB) 18. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Tire Balance (russ kinne) 19. 06:40 PM - Re: bad practice (Richard Girard) 20. 07:06 PM - Re: Tire Balance (GeoB) 21. 08:48 PM - Re: There I was on downwind (cristalclear13) 22. 11:30 PM - Re: Re: Tire Balance () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:23 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: There I was on downwind From: Richard Girard According to the weather yesterday was the last somewhat warm day for awhile and the wind calmed in the late afternoon. Since I'm leaving for Seattle on Thursday I couldn't resist the chance to fly Zulu Delta one last time. Nothing fancy, just some pattern work and a chance to buzz the cars on the dirt road that runs by the end of 17. I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter. Rick Girard do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Powerfin props From: "Rick Lewis" Thanks Mike for this information. I had planed on using the powerfin and was really unhappy to hear they were going out of business. I will wait a little while before ordering and give the new people time to get passed that learning curve. Rick Lewis (VW watercooled engine) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275701#275701 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:01 AM PST US From: "frank.goodnight" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Powerfin props Hi mike, Thanks for spreading the word . I,m happy to learn power fin is back . Frank goodnight. Firestar 2 55161 do not archive On Dec 1, 2009, at 8:56 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > Kolb people, > > I read this in an EAA newsletter. I thought some of you might be > glad to know you can still get a Powerfin prop. Here's the article; > > Frederick Scheffel to Manufacture Powerfin Props > Many in our sport were sad to hear the news earlier this year when > Stuart Goin announced he would cease production of his popular, > lightweight, carbon fiber Powerfin propellers. His products filled > an important niche in the industry. Thankfully, Frederick Scheffel, > a respected leader in the world of powered parachutes (PPC), has > announced he will begin manufacturing Powerfin propellers at his > facility in Wharton, Texas. All the originals molds and production > equipment will move to the 10,000 square foot facility already > dedicated to the manufacture of the Predator PPC. Scheffel expects > to be shipping props by mid-January. All of the popular models will > be available and he will introduce a new curved-tip prop at Sun 'n > Fun 2010. The new default color for Powerfin props will be white; > the original black finish is still available but must be ordered. > Listen to an interview with Fredreick Scheffel on the Ultraflight > Radio archives for November 24. Contact Powerfin and order props at > their website. > > Mike Welch > MkIII > (House is almost done, only a couple of weeks and I get back to work > on my plane) > > Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox. Check it out > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:17 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII cage is back together > Finally got the cage repaired and got it sandblasted today. I realize that for most of you this is what a cage is supposed to look like, but for us it is a milestone. Especially considering what it looked like before... > > Richard Pike Looks good, Rev. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:23 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tire Balance From: "Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN" "Thom Riddle" wrote: << ... If you plan a lot of rough field ops then the 6 ply rating would be a better choice ... >> Thanks for the tip, Thom - However, I'll probably opt for the regular 4-ply tires, when I go back to my original 600x6 size tires. After my salt flats landing incident two summers ago, I had to promise my wife I would only land on "real" runways from now on. (sighh ...) (Nobody laugh - it's what keeps peace in my family, and a constant flow of funding for my Kolb expenses!) Dennis K. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:42 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: There I was on downwind Rick G/Gang: Rudder flutter is a normal characteristic of Kolb aircraft. It is a large control surface, hinged on the leading edge, and unbalanced. I think the w ay the prop blast hits the tail section, the flexibility of the tail post a nd tail boom, and lack of a counter balance, are contributing factors. Ric hard Pike installed a counter balance weight on his mkIII rudder and solved the problem. Keeping your feet firmly planted on the rudder pedals will p revent rudder flutter. On long cross country flights, excess pressure on t he rudder pedals gets very tiring. I solved my rudder flutter problem by t aking a cue from the "heavy feet" solution. I doubled up on rudder pedal s prings. Now I can fly feet off with not rudder flutter. No, doubling up o n rudder springs does not make operating the rudder pedals more difficult. The heavier spring tension balances out. It is the same principle as tyin g the rudder pedals together to secure the rudder while tied down, especial ly with a tail wind. What agrevates the unbalanced rudder to cause flutter? I believe it is the way the prop blast hits the tail. It pushes the rudder into the slip stre am. The slip stream kicks it back. Without resistance from the rudder cab les and pedals, the amplitude increases, usually noticed first by a wing ti p shuttling fore and aft. Some Kolbs do not experience rudder flutter, even with feet removed from th e pedals. On the ground, during static test runs, what causes the tail section of the Kolb to shake laterally? I think it is the same thing I described above, prop blast kicks the rudder one way, and the prop blast on the other side o f the vertical stabilizer kicks it back. My opinion and experience only. john h mkIII I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail wagging. Put m y feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it ag ain, wagging immediately began and I let it go for a few seconds. The ampli tude of the wagging was increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu D elta gets a new cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do i s figure out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter. Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:53 AM PST US From: "frank.goodnight" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: There I was on downwind Hi john, I learn things at the most unexpected times and from unexpected sources. I don,t believe I would ever have thought of tying the rudder pedals together to keep the rudder from flopping around when tied down in a stiff wind. Frank Goodnight Firestar2 55161 do not archive On Dec 2, 2009, at 9:49 AM, John Hauck wrote: > Rick G/Gang: > > Rudder flutter is a normal characteristic of Kolb aircraft. It is a > large control surface, hinged on the leading edge, and unbalanced. > I think the way the prop blast hits the tail section, the > flexibility of the tail post and tail boom, and lack of a counter > balance, are contributing factors. Richard Pike installed a counter > balance weight on his mkIII rudder and solved the problem. Keeping > your feet firmly planted on the rudder pedals will prevent rudder > flutter. On long cross country flights, excess pressure on the > rudder pedals gets very tiring. I solved my rudder flutter problem > by taking a cue from the "heavy feet" solution. I doubled up on > rudder pedal springs. Now I can fly feet off with not rudder > flutter. No, doubling up on rudder springs does not make operating > the rudder pedals more difficult. The heavier spring tension > balances out. It is the same principle as tying the rudder pedals > together to secure the rudder while tied down, especially with a > tail wind. > > What agrevates the unbalanced rudder to cause flutter? I believe it > is the way the prop blast hits the tail. It pushes the rudder into > the slip stream. The slip stream kicks it back. Without resistance > from the rudder cables and pedals, the amplitude increases, usually > noticed first by a wing tip shuttling fore and aft. > > Some Kolbs do not experience rudder flutter, even with feet removed > from the pedals. > > On the ground, during static test runs, what causes the tail section > of the Kolb to shake laterally? I think it is the same thing I > described above, prop blast kicks the rudder one way, and the prop > blast on the other side of the vertical stabilizer kicks it back. > > My opinion and experience only. > > john h > mkIII > > > I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I > lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail > wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging > stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and I let it > go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was increased > with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new cover job > on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure out how to > get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter. > > Rick Girard > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:56 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: There I was on downwind From: "Ralph B" rickofudall > According to the weather yesterday was the last somewhat warm day for awhile and the wind calmed in the late afternoon. Since I'm leaving for Seattle on Thursday I couldn't resist the chance to fly Zulu Delta one last time. Nothing fancy, just some pattern work and a chance to buzz the cars on the dirt road that runs by the end of 17. I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter. > > Rick Girard > do not archive I have experienced a type of flutter that turned into a severe yaw oscillation. The wings were yawing back and forth with the tail wagging. I pulled up into a stall to stop it. Had I not done that, the wings may have torn loose or the boom tube may have broke. This all happened as I was flying over a smoke stack without my feet on the rudder pedals. I looked over the plane for damage afterwards and found nothing. I've flown many hours since this incident and always keep my feet on the pedals. I haven't experienced it since. Ralph B Original Firestar -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 970 hours 22 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 1 year flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275774#275774 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: bad practice From: "dalewhelan" Weather briefer said a few small cells Weather clearing when we decided to fly west 17 miles. 8 miles out sky behind us started to darken. Landed at destination. 2 alternate airports 1 40 minutes south the other 30 minutes north skirting a storm. Return home before storm hits Pleasant Valley. 65 mph cruise ground speed starts dropping. finally stabilizes at 15, flying into storm with 50 mph headwind. Told Greg this is the dumbest thing I have done. 20 minutes of sunlight left. lightning seen. High power zero vsi between cloud and mountain on leaward side in rain visibility drops. 6 miles to go and cant see airport. AWOS at nearby airport 16G26 headwind 4 miles no runway 2 miles no runway 1.9 miles runway On final, 90 degree windsock At touchdown almost calm 5 minutes later calm 10 minutes later, sunset I need to practice less luck and better decision making -------- Dale Whelan 503 powered Firestar II Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275778#275778 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:03 AM PST US From: "frank.goodnight" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: There I was on downwind Hi Kolbers, I fly a Fire star 2 with a HKS engine , only have 110 hrs on it. Have never experinced any type of rudder problem , I usually fly with my feet off the rudder at least 1/2 the time unless it is rough enough that the plane is really bouncing around. Frank Goodnight Brownsville , TX On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Ralph B wrote: > > rickofudall >> According to the weather yesterday was the last somewhat warm day >> for awhile and the wind calmed in the late afternoon. Since I'm >> leaving for Seattle on Thursday I couldn't resist the chance to fly >> Zulu Delta one last time. Nothing fancy, just some pattern work and >> a chance to buzz the cars on the dirt road that runs by the end of >> 17. I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph >> when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt >> the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the >> wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and >> I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was >> increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new >> cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure >> out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter. >> >> Rick Girard >> do not archive > > > I have experienced a type of flutter that turned into a severe yaw > oscillation. The wings were yawing back and forth with the tail > wagging. I pulled up into a stall to stop it. Had I not done that, > the wings may have torn loose or the boom tube may have broke. This > all happened as I was flying over a smoke stack without my feet on > the rudder pedals. I looked over the plane for damage afterwards and > found nothing. I've flown many hours since this incident and always > keep my feet on the pedals. I haven't experienced it since. > > Ralph B > Original Firestar > > -------- > Ralph B > Original Firestar 447 > N91493 E-AB > 970 hours > 22 years flying it > Kolbra 912UL > N20386 > 1 year flying it > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275774#275774 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:44 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: There I was on downwind I usually fly with my feet off the rudder > at least 1/2 the time > unless it is rough enough that the plane is really bouncing around. > > Frank Goodnight Frank G/Gang: Some do, some don't. My Ultrastar and mkIII do, Firestar didn't. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:55 AM PST US From: "frank.goodnight" Subject: Kolb-List: Gps Just bought a new gps . Have a garmin gps map 96 that is less than a year old. I will sell it for 1/2 of the new price plus shipping. If interested contact me off line -------- frank.goodnight@att.net--------- Frank Goodnight Brownsville TX do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:22 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: There I was on downwind From: "Richard Pike" Here is the counterbalance I made to stop the flutter. Ugly as sin, but works. Since I didn't want to take the tail off and turn it sideways to see what it would take to balance it, I just kept adding weight to the front until it would fly feet off and behave. You just have to decide which is easier - crawling up into the nosebowl (John is obviously more streamlined than I am) and fighting with stronger springs (and not snagging/sticking them into your fingers) or sticking a bird perch into the top of the rudder. Ya pays yer money and takes yer cherce. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275798#275798 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rudderbalance_208.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:46 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Nauga Field Fly-Around - Moved 1 week back From: "John Bickham" Good old weather has postponed our flying fun a week. We have gotten some pretty substantial rains here. The field is super wet. Cold front will probably not be warm enough to dry things out for the weekend. Water drains off slow when AT sea level! In fact, there is a chance for "wintery mix" this weekend. Don't want to be anywhere around these crazy cajuns in a wintery mix! We can't handle it. Not really Kolb weather. Cold weather and a short, wet field are not the ingredients for a fun weekend. So we are moving it back one week to December 11, 12, 13. If that don't work, we'll play it by ear and wait for the right weekend come spring time. That is pretty much how the first one got started. John Williamson and John H called me from Sun-n-Fun and said we're coming, get ready. -------- Thanks too much, John Bickham Mark III-C w/ 912UL St. Francisville, LA I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275800#275800 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:15 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: There I was on downwind > You just have to decide which is easier - crawling up into the nosebowl (John is obviously more streamlined than I am) and fighting with stronger springs (and not snagging/sticking them into your fingers) or sticking a bird perch into the top of the rudder. Ya pays yer money and takes yer cherce. > > Richard Pike Rev/Gang: I didn't have a problem installing double springs on the rudder pedals. Took a few minutes to fabricate a few suitable tangs to hook and seperate. No hint of rudder flutter since I doubled up. Seriously, a very easy job. If I remember correctly, the rudder pedals on my mark three are pretty easy to reach without becoming a spelunker. I prefer my double springs, quick, simple, and work, over attaching a big weather vane on the rudder. A much cleaner installation from my point of view. Plus, I already had the springs on the shelf. ;-) john h mkIII - Repairing dings in my new Warp Drive blades after a couple unidentified flying objects made contact with all three blades. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:36 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII cage is back together From: "olendorf" Am I the only one that is thinking Richard has the best toys? :D -------- Scott Olendorf Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop Schenectady, NY http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275857#275857 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:23 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tire Balance From: "GeoB" John Hauck wrote: > Difficult/impossible to balance a tire that is also out of round. Sometimes folks riding scooters get a scalloping on the tires. Some folks get a sharp rasp- the kind made of thin metal, and each tooth has a hole next to it, I fergit the name. They have a helper fire up the scooter and spin the rear tire and hold the bike while they apply the file to the tire. Due to the risk of injury we use two 2x4 pieces of wood. Maybe 1'-2' long. Attach them together at the end with a strap hinge. fasten the rasp-thingee to one end. Stand on one 2x4, on the ground, and the second one with the rasp can be gently and fairly safely be applied to the offending tire. Think this through and take precautions. Wear leather gloves. One can apply this method to the front tire also using the bench grinder again. Perhaps this idea can transfer to out-of-round UL tires, I don't know. GeoB -------- GeoB "Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275864#275864 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:28 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tire Balance GeoB: I think you mean "SURFORM TOOLS" -- made in various sizes & shapes. Good stuff. On Dec 2, 2009, at 6:06 PM, GeoB wrote: > > > John Hauck wrote: >> Difficult/impossible to balance a tire that is also out of round. > > > Sometimes folks riding scooters get a scalloping on the tires. Some > folks get a sharp rasp- the kind made of thin metal, and each tooth > has a hole next to it, I fergit the name. They have a helper fire > up the scooter and spin the rear tire and hold the bike while they > apply the file to the tire. > > Due to the risk of injury we use two 2x4 pieces of wood. Maybe > 1'-2' long. Attach them together at the end with a strap hinge. > fasten the rasp-thingee to one end. Stand on one 2x4, on the > ground, and the second one with the rasp can be gently and fairly > safely be applied to the offending tire. Think this through and > take precautions. Wear leather gloves. > > One can apply this method to the front tire also using the bench > grinder again. > > Perhaps this idea can transfer to out-of-round UL tires, I don't know. > > GeoB > > -------- > GeoB > > "Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like > NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors" > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275864#275864 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: bad practice From: Richard Girard Dale, Yep, you were lucky. Number One Pilot Killer - Continued flight into deteriorating weather. Rick Girard On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:53 AM, dalewhelan wrote: > > Weather briefer said a few small cells > Weather clearing when we decided to fly west 17 miles. > 8 miles out sky behind us started to darken. > Landed at destination. > 2 alternate airports 1 40 minutes south the other 30 minutes north skirting > a storm. > Return home before storm hits Pleasant Valley. > 65 mph cruise > ground speed starts dropping. > finally stabilizes at 15, flying into storm with 50 mph headwind. > Told Greg this is the dumbest thing I have done. > 20 minutes of sunlight left. > lightning seen. > High power zero vsi between cloud and mountain on leaward side in rain > visibility drops. > 6 miles to go and cant see airport. > AWOS at nearby airport 16G26 headwind > 4 miles no runway > 2 miles no runway > 1.9 miles runway > On final, 90 degree windsock > At touchdown almost calm > 5 minutes later calm > 10 minutes later, sunset > I need to practice less luck and better decision making > > -------- > Dale Whelan > 503 powered Firestar II > Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275778#275778 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:32 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tire Balance From: "GeoB" russkinne(at)mac.com wrote: > I think you mean "SURFORM TOOLS" -- made in various sizes & shapes. Good stuff. > Yes! That's it, thanks. GeoB -------- GeoB "Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275898#275898 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:59 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: There I was on downwind From: "cristalclear13" John Hauck wrote: > > > Rev/Gang: > > I didn't have a problem installing double springs on the rudder pedals. > Took a few minutes to fabricate a few suitable tangs to hook and seperate. > No hint of rudder flutter since I doubled up. Seriously, a very easy job. > If I remember correctly, the rudder pedals on my mark three are pretty easy > to reach without becoming a spelunker. > > I prefer my double springs, quick, simple, and work, over attaching a big > weather vane on the rudder. A much cleaner installation from my point of > view. > > Plus, I already had the springs on the shelf. ;-) > > john h > mkIII - Repairing dings in my new Warp Drive blades after a couple > unidentified flying objects made contact with all three blades. Here's the picture again. John, bet your Miss P'fer is happy to be in the air again! -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275912#275912 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/john_haucks_rudder_pedals_103.jpg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:01 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tire Balance said like a real true good sport. I find landing on grass the most gentle way of getting back onto the ground, good hard rolled ground. Outlandings can have their moments . regards Downunder MK111c ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:22 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tire Balance "Thom Riddle" wrote: << ... If you plan a lot of rough field ops then the 6 ply rating would be a better choice . >> Thanks for the tip, Thom - However, I'll probably opt for the regular 4-ply tires, when I go back to my original 600x6 size tires. After my salt flats landing incident two summers ago, I had to promise my wife I would only land on "real" runways from now on. (sighh .) (Nobody laugh - it's what keeps peace in my family, and a constant flow of funding for my Kolb expenses!) Dennis K. 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