---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/13/10: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:58 AM - Re: Re: MV date decided yet? (russ kinne) 2. 06:51 AM - Re: (russ kinne) 3. 09:07 AM - 582 fuel system (mark rinehart) 4. 10:05 AM - Re: 582 fuel system (John Hauck) 5. 10:11 AM - Re: 582 fuel system (Tom Longo) 6. 10:20 AM - Re: 582 fuel system (Dana Hague) 7. 11:09 AM - Re: 582 fuel system (Mike Welch) 8. 12:07 PM - Re: Flying the lazy river on Youtube (Steve Simmons) 9. 12:13 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 10. 12:40 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (lucien) 11. 01:34 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (Mike Welch) 12. 01:47 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (Richard Girard) 13. 02:00 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (John Hauck) 14. 02:42 PM - Fuel pumps in series (Lanny Fetterman) 15. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: 582 fuel system (John Hauck) 16. 03:56 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (lucien) 17. 04:02 PM - Tech. problems with Matronics Kolb list (Carl Tosh) 18. 04:14 PM - Re: Tech. problems with Matronics Kolb list (Matt Dralle) 19. 04:28 PM - Re: Re: 582 fuel system (John Hauck) 20. 08:12 PM - Re: Flying the lazy river on Youtube (cristalclear13) 21. 08:43 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 22. 09:01 PM - Re: 582 fuel system (Mike Welch) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:57 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MV date decided yet? John Happy 2010, and I hope your 'warming trend' has arrived. Nothing colder than a warm state that gets a sudden cold snap. I've near-fruz in Pensacola more than once. I feel sorry for the many people, and kids, who don't have warm clothes or any insulaion in their houses. But you have thoughts of MV10 to keep you warm! Fair winds, Russ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:49 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Dear Wandering I'm sure this is legit. That's just What Bears Do! And obviously the repairs worked. That damage to the rt. horiz. stab. would worry me the most. Alaska is a great place, and often the FAA up there acts sensibly. Have fun, fly safe, Russ K do not archive On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:57 AM, TheWanderingWench wrote: > This is an amazing tale - and unless someone went to an awful lot > of trouble to doctor the pics, probably true. > > www.thehulltruth.com/dockside-chat/260677-duct-tape-story.html > > Enjoy! > > Arty ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:14 AM PST US From: mark rinehart Subject: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I'd appreciate your advice. Mark Rinehart ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:19 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I'd appreciate your advice. > > Mark Rinehart Mike R/Gang: You'll get all kinds of responses to this one. I started using two mikuni fuel pumps on my first Kolb, an Ultrastar. The Cuyuna ULII02 had two crank case pressure ports, one for each cylinder. I ran the Mikunis, one off each port, in series. Used a back up Facet Electronic boost pump in my 447 powered Firestar plumbed in series with excellent results. The Mikuni pulled fuel through the Facet when the Facet was shut down, normally at all times except during take off, landing, and low level flight. For the last 3,000 hours (minus 12) I have used a Facet and Mikuni or engine driven pump plumbed in series on my MKIII with no problems encountered. Usually, if a Mikuni pulse pump fails, it will be one of two little ears on the diaphragm that serve as the intake and outlet valves. I know of no Mikuni diaphragm that has failed to allow fuel to be pumped through it and outside the pump. I like the fuel pump plumbed in series. Works for me. You'll have to choose which way you want to go. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:35 AM PST US From: "Tom Longo" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Yes it will, the Mikuni will flow through if it fails to pump also and let the boost pump keep you flying. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of mark rinehart Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I'd appreciate your advice. Mark Rinehart Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 07:35:00 -- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:50 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system At 12:05 PM 1/13/2010, mark rinehart wrote: > >I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost >pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the >he mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If >the facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to >draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru >and allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with >similar systems I'd appreciate your advice. If the Mikuni pump's check valves fail, the boost pump will pump fuel through the pump and keep the engine running. OTOH, if the Mikuni's diaphragm fails, the boost pump will pump fuel back up the pulse line and fill the crankcase. -Dana -- No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:52 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mark and Kolb guys=2C I'm curious. I don't have much experience with diaphram pumps and all=2C but it seems odd to want to design a series fuel pumping system. I mean =2C I know a series system would work great and all....but how would you kn ow you lost one of the pumps=2C if the other pump can do all the work? Let's say=2C for example=2C the last flight you had=2C your primary pump blew out=2C and the backup kept you flying=2C how would you know??? You'd be toolin' along thinking you had both pumpers up to snuff=2C but you would n't. Unless you verified each and every flight that BOTH pumps were operating fine=2C you could be relying a false sense of security. Wouldn't you? If it were me=2C and maybe that's just my way of thinking=2C I think I wo uld like a parallel fuel system. Here why I think this=3B if my primary s ystem failed=2C it would kick on the backup system (and a big bright red pa nel light). The light would alert me that the primary pump needs attention =2C and when I landed=2C I could take care of the problem=2C but in the mea ntime=2C my backup is doing it's job. For a parallel design=2C a primary system could easily have a low-pressur e switch ($30 McMaster Carr) that if activated (due to a zero or very low f uel pressure)=2C it would turn on the backup pump. This method is close to how my turbo "high fuel delivery" fuel system is designed and operated. I realize a series fuel system=2C with two fuel pumps=2C CAN work. I kno w that. But=2C how would you know that every flight both are working prope rly? Just some thoughts on the matter....... Mike Welch MkIII CX > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pum p. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he m ikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the fa cet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow t he boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I 'd appreciate your advice. > > Mark Rinehart _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:36 PM PST US From: "Steve Simmons" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flying the lazy river on Youtube Hi Dave your photos make me miss the fly I noticed you have put a few more items in the cockpit. I have got a Mark III that I have rebuilt and have a few more things to do to it before I test fly it I should be flying within the next month. I have a VN 1400 engine on it hope it works out well. I will let you know From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Kulp Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flying the lazy river on Youtube Hi Steve, The FlagFly is a total blast. The airstrip where I have it was sold the first of the year. Butch, the previous owner, said it would remain an airstrip, but I haven't heard from the new owner yet. I'll attach a couple of pics flying down and over my house and back to the strip, where my dog is waiting in the pickup. Sent them to Don G., who built it, and he emailed back that looking out under those stars and stripes made him "giddy." I understand why; he did one heck of a fine job building it. The paint job alone is a labor of love! Dave .. INDEX Back to Main INDEX .. NEXT Skip to NEXT Message .. LIST Reply to LIST Regarding this Message .. SENDER Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message Time: 01:28:56 PM PST US From: "Steve Simmons" Subject: Flying the lazy river on Youtube Hi David How is the Flagfly doing? From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Kulp Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 11:05 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Flying the lazy river on Youtube Possums, Was it you who posted a Youtube video flying down a picturesque river with some classy background music?? I saw it in the era when the video where you were chasing ducks was posted. Reason I ask is I have a friend, Jim, who is a pilot for Continental (and won this year's Iron Butt Motorcycle Rally - 12,700 miles in 11 days!!) and I'm trying to whet his appetite for a Kolb. That was one of the best videos of low and slow I've seen, and of course a Kolb is one of the best flyin' machines to do it in. Hope you see this because I can't contact you off line. I just got a new computer and my primary success in transferring my email address book from my external hard drive to my new computer has been to frustrate myself. Woe is me! Genuine unadulterated concentrated woe. Happy New Year to you and everyone on the list! Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:17 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mike Your system sounds great and should work well but I like to keep things simple. My fuel system requires a electric fuel pump. I have two electric pumps in series, one is driven by the ignition circuit. The secondary pump by separate switched circuit. My starting routine is prime the fuel system using the back up pump. I watch the fuel flow through a short piece of transparent fuel line till the float bowls are full. I then turn off the secondary system and start the engine. I can see fuel flow and hear the faucet pump running when I turn on the back up pump. I know the back up pump test works because the faucet pump died a few years back and its need for replacement was very noticeable. I can hear the primary pump running when the ignition is turned on. I also know if the primary pump fails the engine will quit fairly quick and while still on the ground. I had to disconnect the primary pump power wires to test this. Before takeoff or landing I turn on the back up pump. It works for me. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:04 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mark and Kolb guys, I'm curious. I don't have much experience with diaphram pumps and all, but it seems odd to want to design a series fuel pumping system. I mean, I know a series system would work great and all....but how would you know you lost one of the pumps, if the other pump can do all the work? Let's say, for example, the last flight you had, your primary pump blew out, and the backup kept you flying, how would you know??? You'd be toolin' along thinking you had both pumpers up to snuff, but you wouldn't. Unless you verified each and every flight that BOTH pumps were operating fine, you could be relying a false sense of security. Wouldn't you? If it were me, and maybe that's just my way of thinking, I think I would like a parallel fuel system. Here why I think this; if my primary system failed, it would kick on the backup system (and a big bright red panel light). The light would alert me that the primary pump needs attention, and when I landed, I could take care of the problem, but in the meantime, my backup is doing it's job. For a parallel design, a primary system could easily have a low-pressure switch ($30 McMaster Carr) that if activated (due to a zero or very low fuel pressure), it would turn on the backup pump. This method is close to how my turbo "high fuel delivery" fuel system is designed and operated. I realize a series fuel system, with two fuel pumps, CAN work. I know that. But, how would you know that every flight both are working properly? Just some thoughts on the matter....... Mike Welch MkIII CX > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I'd appreciate your advice. > > Mark Rinehart ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Hotmail: Free, trusted and r01/' target='_new'>Get it now. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:24 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 582 fuel system From: "lucien" capt_riney(at)yahoo.com wrote: > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I'd appreciate your advice. > > Mark Rinehart There's generally little advantage to adding the electric pump and a couple of disadvantages. The mikuni pneumatic pumps are exceedingly reliable and, in a Kolb installation, provide plenty of vacuum to draw the fuel up from the tank to the engine. The primary disadvantages are, in my view, enough to decide against adding the boost pump: - the electric pumps add a small amount of drag when off from the check valve. - additional complexity is added in the form of the electrics, the switch, the additional procedures to follow for its use. - more troubleshooting needed when there is a fuel draw problem, as you've already pretty much correctly alluded to here ;). As I said, the pneumatic pumps are exceptionally reliable and when simply used by themselves yeild the simplest and easy to use/maintain system. I've used them for years and many hundreds of hours and have never had one fail. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281325#281325 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:09 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Rick N.=2C The design of your system sounds like I was asking about. Your ability t o verify each pump=2C prior to each flight=2C is the kind of assure I was w ondering about. It appears as though you have everything covered. But=2C Rick=2C is your fuel delivery a true "series" design? Mike Welch From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mike Your system sounds great and should work well but I like to keep things sim ple. My fuel system requires a electric fuel pump. I have two electric pumps in series=2C one is driven by the ignition circuit. The secondary pump by sepa rate switched circuit. My starting routine is prime the fuel system using t he back up pump. I watch the fuel flow through a short piece of transparent fuel line till the float bowls are full. I then turn off the secondary sys tem and start the engine. I can see fuel flow and hear the faucet pump runn ing when I turn on the back up pump. I know the back up pump test works bec ause the faucet pump died a few years back and its need for replacement was very noticeable. I can hear the primary pump running when the ignition is turned on. I also know if the primary pump fails the engine will quit fair ly quick and while still on the ground. I had to disconnect the primary pum p power wires to test this. Before takeoff or landing I turn on the back up pump. It works for me. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch Sent: Wednesday=2C January 13=2C 2010 2:04 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mark and Kolb guys=2C I'm curious. I don't have much experience with diaphram pumps and all=2C but it seems odd to want to design a series fuel pumping system. I mean =2C I know a series system would work great and all....but how would you kn ow you lost one of the pumps=2C if the other pump can do all the work? Let's say=2C for example=2C the last flight you had=2C your primary pump blew out=2C and the backup kept you flying=2C how would you know??? You'd be toolin' along thinking you had both pumpers up to snuff=2C but you would n't. Unless you verified each and every flight that BOTH pumps were operating fine=2C you could be relying a false sense of security. Wouldn't you? If it were me=2C and maybe that's just my way of thinking=2C I think I wo uld like a parallel fuel system. Here why I think this=3B if my primary s ystem failed=2C it would kick on the backup system (and a big bright red pa nel light). The light would alert me that the primary pump needs attention =2C and when I landed=2C I could take care of the problem=2C but in the mea ntime=2C my backup is doing it's job. For a parallel design=2C a primary system could easily have a low-pressur e switch ($30 McMaster Carr) that if activated (due to a zero or very low f uel pressure)=2C it would turn on the backup pump. This method is close to how my turbo "high fuel delivery" fuel system is designed and operated. I realize a series fuel system=2C with two fuel pumps=2C CAN work. I kno w that. But=2C how would you know that every flight both are working prope rly? Just some thoughts on the matter....... Mike Welch MkIII CX > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pum p. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he m ikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the fa cet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow t he boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I 'd appreciate your advice. > > Mark Rinehart Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and r01/' target='_new'>Get it now. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system From: Richard Girard Mike, Richard, et al, I run a Facet in parallel in both my aircraft. I know it's running when I turn it on before start up by its thumping. I turn it off to taxi and if the engine dies I know I have a problem with the pneumatic pump. Once I do a runup and check the mags, I turn the Facet back on for take off. When I reach my cruising altitude I turn it off until I'm back in the pattern. I turn it on again for landing. If I'm just staying in the pattern I leave it on. Never had a problem with either aircraft. Rick Girard On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > Rick N., > > The design of your system sounds like I was asking about. Your ability > to verify each pump, prior to each flight, is the kind of assure I was > wondering about. It appears as though you have everything covered. > > But, Rick, is your fuel delivery a true "series" design? > > Mike Welch > > ------------------------------ > From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:12:13 -0500 > > Mike > > Your system sounds great and should work well but I like to keep things > simple. > > My fuel system requires a electric fuel pump. I have two electric pumps in > series, one is driven by the ignition circuit. The secondary pump by > separate switched circuit. My starting routine is prime the fuel system > using the back up pump. I watch the fuel flow through a short piece of > transparent fuel line till the float bowls are full. I then turn off the > secondary system and start the engine. I can see fuel flow and hear the > faucet pump running when I turn on the back up pump. I know the back up > pump test works because the faucet pump died a few years back and its need > for replacement was very noticeable. I can hear the primary pump running > when the ignition is turned on. I also know if the primary pump fails the > engine will quit fairly quick and while still on the ground. I had to > disconnect the primary pump power wires to test this. Before takeoff or > landing I turn on the back up pump. > > It works for me. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Welch > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:04 PM > *Subject:* RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system > > Mark and Kolb guys, > > I'm curious. I don't have much experience with diaphram pumps and all, > but it seems odd to want to design a *series* fuel pumping system. I > mean, I know a series system would work great and all....but how would you > know you lost one of the pumps, if the other pump can do all the work? > Let's say, for example, the last flight you had, your primary pump blew > out, and the backup kept you flying, how would you know??? You'd be toolin' > along thinking you had both pumpers up to snuff, but you wouldn't. > > Unless you verified each and every flight that BOTH pumps were operating > fine, you could be relying a false sense of security. Wouldn't you? > > If it were me, and maybe that's just my way of thinking, I think I would > like a parallel fuel system. Here why I think this; if my primary system > failed, it would kick on the backup system (and a big bright red panel > light). The light would alert me that the primary pump needs attention, and > when I landed, I could take care of the problem, but in the meantime, my > backup is doing it's job. > > For a parallel design, a primary system could easily have a low-pressure > switch ($30 McMaster Carr) that if activated (due to a zero or very low fuel > pressure), it would turn on the backup pump. > This method is close to how my turbo "high fuel delivery" fuel system is > designed and operated. > > I realize a *series fuel system*, with two fuel pumps, CAN work. I know > that. But, how would you know that every flight both are working properly? > > Just some thoughts on the matter....... > > Mike Welch > MkIII CX > > > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost > pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he > mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the > facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw > fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and > allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar > systems I'd appreciate your advice. > > > > Mark Rinehart > > ------------------------------ > Hotmail: Free, trusted and r01/' target='_new'>Get it now. > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > ------------------------------ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerf/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:47 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mike W/Gang: We used standby fuel pumps in series with the main pumps on UH-1 and AH-1 helicopters, when I was flying them a few years ago, like 35 years ago. We checked both during engine start and run up. We left the standby pump off and started the engine on the main fuel pump. Noting the fuel pressure on the main, we then turned on the standby. Usually, we would get a couple pound increase in pressure to let us know the standby was operational. The fact that the engine started and was running on the main fuel told us it was operational. My MKIII is plumbed the same way as the Hueys and Cobras, minus the fuel pressure gauge. Before engine start I turn on the Facet boost pump to prime the carbs. I can listen to it and tell when the bowls are full. Turn it off and crank the engine with the engine driven pump. If the engine runs on the engine driven pump while I am getting ready to taxi and takeoff, I am happy with it. To be more exact, I should have a fuel pressure gauge, but I don't like running a fuel line to the instrument panel. john h mkIII I realize a series fuel system, with two fuel pumps, CAN work. I know that. But, how would you know that every flight both are working properly? Just some thoughts on the matter....... Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:31 PM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel pumps in series Hi All, This is how I know both pumps are working on my FSII. I flip on the facet while the engine is NOT running. I can hear the pump running and watch fuel fill the fuel lines running to the carbs, thus verifying that pump. Then I shut the facet off and start the engine for my warm up this verifies the diaphragm pump is working. Before I take the active runway I flip the facet back on for take off and climb out. When I reach my cruising altitude I flip the facet off again. When I`m ready to land I flip the facet back on until I shut down the engine at my trailer. In the past I would let the facet run during the entire flight but my flight instructor didn`t like that. He felt that if either pump failed in flight, I wouldn`t be aware of it. I know there are two schools of thought about turning the facet on and leaving it on and turning it off after climb out. All I can say is I trust my instructors opinion and do what he advises. Anyway this procedure works for me. Lanny N398LF ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:00 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 582 fuel system > There's generally little advantage to adding the electric pump and a couple of disadvantages. The mikuni pneumatic pumps are exceedingly reliable and, in a Kolb installation, provide plenty of vacuum to draw the fuel up from the tank to the engine. > > As I said, the pneumatic pumps are exceptionally reliable and when simply > used by themselves yeild the simplest and easy to use/maintain system. > I've used them for years and many hundreds of hours and have never had one > fail. > > LS Lucien/Gang: I think the major advantage of having an electric boost pump is when the Mikuni fails, gives you another chance. Back in my two stroke days I had a Mikuni fail. Had a cheap Facet copy I bought from JC Whitney for backup pump, which failed a few hours after I departed Alabama for the Flight Farm, in Monterey, NY, in 1989. The Mikuni failed while flying low level around the Flight Farm a few days later. Lucked out and landed in one of the many hay fields in the area. Murphy knows when to strike. He is very patient. Might be complex for some, but pretty simple for most to cut a fuel line, stick a Facet in there, run a couple wires to the battery and a switch. On my Firestar, I did not have a battery. Connected the pump through a switch to my 12VDC buss. Got a Facet to replace the Chinamanese pump when I got back to Alabama. Trying to save a few dollars cost me a forced landing. Not much maintenance to a Facet pump. I have had one in my MKIII for a few hours less than 3,000. Haven't done anything to it since installation in 1991. These pumps were used as primary lift pumps in many small pickup trucks, Mazda for one. They have a great track record. Almost as good as Mikuni. My first little Kubota diesel was built in and around 1975. It uses a Mikuni pulse pump for a lift pump. It has several thousand hours and 35 years of pumping without failure. If that pump was in my airplane, it would probably fail next flight. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:33 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 582 fuel system From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > Lucien/Gang: > > I think the major advantage of having an electric boost pump is when the > Mikuni fails, gives you another chance. > > Seems like we've kicked around the electric fuel pump issue in the past, but my memory is a little foggy on it. To the OP I'd say it's ultimately a matter of personal preference as my reasons for not liking and thus not using an electric pump (unless it's specifically called for by the installation) tend to be just matters of my own personal opinion. I personally prefer the simplest possible systems in critical areas like fuel systems because they're easier to maintain, less stuff for me to worry about in flight, easier to catch goofs on and yeild the simplest possible checklists in the plane. I.e. fan stops turning: - go to landing spot - land fan gets rough - go to landing spot - land without having to hit extra switches, etc. etc... Though I will admit that some of the terrain I've flown over in a couple of my recent trips did once or twice cause backup systems like an aux. fuel pump to pop into my mind for a moment. It did prompt me to go hug a road, which did quite enjoyable extend a flight I made the other day. If the WX is good this weekend I'm going to repeat it but this time using that new route with the road under it ;) LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281354#281354 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:49 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Tech. problems with Matronics Kolb list From: "Carl Tosh" Jack and All, I am at wits end . I have not been able to get to the Matronics list but once in a blue moon. Something has changed this winter. I have been a member for over a year as I am 19 Yahoo Groups. I have spent over $100. Trying to figure out why my computer times out ( tcp) message 0r Internet Explorer can't display the page. Site unavailable or other BS. All other connections work fine just can't get to Matronics the last few months without all kinds of BS notices. I e-mailed Matt got no where. Called Wild Blue Dish myIP bought software that didn't WORK. Had A Tech. come out. Cleaned almost everything out of my computer. I use Yahoo as the web brouser. Can this also be a case of Barracuda screwing things up? What can I do next? The Matronics Kolb Site is my favorite place for aircraft related topics. It is getting ridiculus to try to get here. Sorry for all my ranting but, I may not be able to get on for a week . Carl Tosh -------- mongsterone Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281355#281355 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:16 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tech. problems with Matronics Kolb list From: "Matt Dralle" Hi Carl, I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. I think that I did respond to your email from last week, but I answer a lot of list-op related email and I might be remembering something else. I'm not sure why you are having such issues connecting to the site. I'm off the Matronics net right now and am connecting in and viewing the Matronics Forums without issue or delay. You didn't specifically describe the methods you were trying to access the Lists. Are the problems with WEB access to the forums site? Or with posting and/or receiving email via the traditional email lists? What about accessing the traditional List search engine and/or List Browse? http://www.matronics.com/search http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator -------- Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281357#281357 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:59 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 582 fuel system > Though I will admit that some of the terrain I've flown over in a couple of my recent trips did once or twice cause backup systems like an aux. fuel pump to pop into my mind for a moment. > It did prompt me to go hug a road, which did quite enjoyable extend a > flight I made the other day. > If the WX is good this weekend I'm going to repeat it but this time using > that new route with the road under it ;) > > LS Lucien/Gang: Based on altitude and terrain, I will turn on the boost pump is necessary. The Facet is rated for continuous duty. Could leave it on all the time. If I am scared the engine is going to stop at any moment, I'll follow a road or other suitable forced landing area, if there is one. Normally, flying with a 912UL or a 912ULS, I fly direct. Aren't you flying a Titan with 912? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flying the lazy river on Youtube From: "cristalclear13" undoctor wrote: > Sent them to Don G., who built it, and he emailed back that looking out under those stars and stripes made him "giddy." I understand why; he did one heck of a fine job building it. The paint job alone is a labor of love! > > Dave That paint job is amazing. I really like it. -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281386#281386 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:05 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mike Yes the system is true "series" design. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Rick N., The design of your system sounds like I was asking about. Your ability to verify each pump, prior to each flight, is the kind of assure I was wondering about. It appears as though you have everything covered. But, Rick, is your fuel delivery a true "series" design? Mike Welch ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:12:13 -0500 Mike Your system sounds great and should work well but I like to keep things simple. My fuel system requires a electric fuel pump. I have two electric pumps in series, one is driven by the ignition circuit. The secondary pump by separate switched circuit. My starting routine is prime the fuel system using the back up pump. I watch the fuel flow through a short piece of transparent fuel line till the float bowls are full. I then turn off the secondary system and start the engine. I can see fuel flow and hear the faucet pump running when I turn on the back up pump. I know the back up pump test works because the faucet pump died a few years back and its need for replacement was very noticeable. I can hear the primary pump running when the ignition is turned on. I also know if the primary pump fails the engine will quit fairly quick and while still on the ground. I had to disconnect the primary pump power wires to test this. Before takeoff or landing I turn on the back up pump. It works for me. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:04 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mark and Kolb guys, I'm curious. I don't have much experience with diaphram pumps and all, but it seems odd to want to design a series fuel pumping system. I mean, I know a series system would work great and all....but how would you know you lost one of the pumps, if the other pump can do all the work? Let's say, for example, the last flight you had, your primary pump blew out, and the backup kept you flying, how would you know??? You'd be toolin' along thinking you had both pumpers up to snuff, but you wouldn't. Unless you verified each and every flight that BOTH pumps were operating fine, you could be relying a false sense of security. Wouldn't you? If it were me, and maybe that's just my way of thinking, I think I would like a parallel fuel system. Here why I think this; if my primary system failed, it would kick on the backup system (and a big bright red panel light). The light would alert me that the primary pump needs attention, and when I landed, I could take care of the problem, but in the meantime, my backup is doing it's job. For a parallel design, a primary system could easily have a low-pressure switch ($30 McMaster Carr) that if activated (due to a zero or very low fuel pressure), it would turn on the backup pump. This method is close to how my turbo "high fuel delivery" fuel system is designed and operated. I realize a series fuel system, with two fuel pumps, CAN work. I know that. But, how would you know that every flight both are working properly? Just some thoughts on the matter....... Mike Welch MkIII CX > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pump. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he mikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the facet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow the boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I'd appreciate your advice. > > Mark Rinehart ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Hotmail: Free, trusted and r01/' target='_new'>Get it now. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Hotmail: Trusted email with powerf/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:59 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Rick=2C Rick=2C John=2C Lucien=2C etc=2C and others=2C Like I said=2C I don't know much about the 582 delivery systems=2C but it sounds like you guys have it figured out. My concern was not knowing if you had a failure in a two pump system=2C b ut as long as you can easily verify each pump is working properly=2C then i t sounds like you're in good shape. Mike Welch From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mike Yes the system is true "series" design. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch Sent: Wednesday=2C January 13=2C 2010 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Rick N.=2C The design of your system sounds like I was asking about. Your ability t o verify each pump=2C prior to each flight=2C is the kind of assure I was w ondering about. It appears as though you have everything covered. But=2C Rick=2C is your fuel delivery a true "series" design? Mike Welch From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mike Your system sounds great and should work well but I like to keep things sim ple. My fuel system requires a electric fuel pump. I have two electric pumps in series=2C one is driven by the ignition circuit. The secondary pump by sepa rate switched circuit. My starting routine is prime the fuel system using t he back up pump. I watch the fuel flow through a short piece of transparent fuel line till the float bowls are full. I then turn off the secondary sys tem and start the engine. I can see fuel flow and hear the faucet pump runn ing when I turn on the back up pump. I know the back up pump test works bec ause the faucet pump died a few years back and its need for replacement was very noticeable. I can hear the primary pump running when the ignition is turned on. I also know if the primary pump fails the engine will quit fair ly quick and while still on the ground. I had to disconnect the primary pum p power wires to test this. Before takeoff or landing I turn on the back up pump. It works for me. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch Sent: Wednesday=2C January 13=2C 2010 2:04 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 582 fuel system Mark and Kolb guys=2C I'm curious. I don't have much experience with diaphram pumps and all=2C but it seems odd to want to design a series fuel pumping system. I mean =2C I know a series system would work great and all....but how would you kn ow you lost one of the pumps=2C if the other pump can do all the work? Let's say=2C for example=2C the last flight you had=2C your primary pump blew out=2C and the backup kept you flying=2C how would you know??? You'd be toolin' along thinking you had both pumpers up to snuff=2C but you would n't. Unless you verified each and every flight that BOTH pumps were operating fine=2C you could be relying a false sense of security. Wouldn't you? If it were me=2C and maybe that's just my way of thinking=2C I think I wo uld like a parallel fuel system. Here why I think this=3B if my primary s ystem failed=2C it would kick on the backup system (and a big bright red pa nel light). The light would alert me that the primary pump needs attention =2C and when I landed=2C I could take care of the problem=2C but in the mea ntime=2C my backup is doing it's job. For a parallel design=2C a primary system could easily have a low-pressur e switch ($30 McMaster Carr) that if activated (due to a zero or very low f uel pressure)=2C it would turn on the backup pump. This method is close to how my turbo "high fuel delivery" fuel system is designed and operated. I realize a series fuel system=2C with two fuel pumps=2C CAN work. I kno w that. But=2C how would you know that every flight both are working prope rly? Just some thoughts on the matter....... Mike Welch MkIII CX > I've got a series or parallel question about installing a facet boost pum p. I'm planning on intalling a facet pump between my fuel tank and the he m ikuni engine pump. I'm doing it in series just to keep it simple. If the fa cet fails it should still flow thru so the mikuni will be able to draw fuel from the tank. But what if the mikuni fails? Will it flow thru and allow t he boost pump fuel to get to the carbs? Those of you with similar systems I 'd appreciate your advice. > > Mark Rinehart Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and r01/' target='_new'>Get it now. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution Hotmail: Trusted email with powerf/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. 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