---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/16/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:12 AM - Re: Keeping the Firefly part 103 legal (lucien) 2. 07:38 AM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (planecrazzzy) 3. 08:24 AM - Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase (lucien) 4. 10:07 AM - Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (albertakolbmk3) 5. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase (Dana Hague) 6. 11:37 AM - Re: Keeping the Firefly part 103 legal (Ralph B) 7. 01:56 PM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Eugene Zimmerman) 8. 07:12 PM - Old Kolb Pilots (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 9. 07:33 PM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Eugene Zimmerman) 10. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Ellery Batchelder Jr) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:25 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Keeping the Firefly part 103 legal From: "lucien" donaho1(at)verizon.net wrote: > When I was trying to decide if I should build a FSII or a Firefly, I > asked Dennis Soulder how difficult it was to keep the Firefly part > 103 legal. His answer was "keep it stock and don`t put too much paint > on it if you want to stay below 254 lbs." When I heard it was that > easy to make the Firefly into a fat ultralight, I figured if I was > going to be illegal, I may as well build a FSII. I flew the FSII as a > fat ultralight until I got my Sport Pilot license. Lanny N598LF For what it's worth, this is typically the case with most aircraft actually designed to meet part 103. It's pretty tough to make a safe, durable design that also actually makes weight.... If I do decide to build, I'm leaning towards another FS II anyway thinking it all over. I still have my PF prop and my old C box + clutch that I could use on a 503 equipped FS II. That's about a $3000 headstart that would take a big chunk out of the difference between it and a FF. Since I'd really have to go EAB anyway to stay legal overall, I'm kind of thinking the way you're thinking ;) LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286641#286641 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:24 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim From: "planecrazzzy" Wittman had a simple trim system that works... Here's some pictures of mine... I can give you more details if you need them. .. .. Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" Building Wittman "Buttercup" w/Lycoming 0-235 -------- .. .. .. .. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286644#286644 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/hpim1057_472.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/hpim1056_445.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/hpim1055_751.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase From: "lucien" Dana wrote: > > Without seeing the details of the installation I can't pass judgement, but sometimes strengthening the gear legs isn't such a great idea. Often the gear is the mechanical "fuse" in the system... the gear leg bends in a hard landing, whereas a stronger gear leg transfers the force (and the damage) to the much more expensive to repair fuselage. > > -Dana > JMO, but I'd go along with Dana on this too. You'd be surprised at how much R&D actually goes into landing gear on most planes. the only time you really want to modify the gear is if it's just slap too weak to start with or if the typical failure mode is dangerous and/or really expensive (i.e. leg snaps off before bending, etc). Lovely thing about the Kolb LG is the legs take the beating before the rest of the airframe bending long before they break, as told to me by folks who've er, tested the LG to that failure mode ;). Adding strength can alter both the "fuse" aspect and the failure mode into something more expensive or dangerous.... If it were me buying this particular FF, I'd look at how reversible the mod is so I could feel free to take it off if I wanted to.... JME and O, LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286650#286650 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb From: "albertakolbmk3" Has the fellow that was doing the yamaha 4 stroke in his Kolb MKIII made any progress? I'm very curious as to how he made out? I sees some guys are starting to use them in Gyro's. -------- Tony B. Kolb MKIII C Rotax 582 C Gearbox 3.00:1 WD 66" 3 Blade Prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286656#286656 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:54 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase At 12:04 AM 2/16/2010, John Hauck wrote: >The cord wasn't routed on the 1984 Ultrastar. It came directly out of the >recoil starter. Ah, a previous owner must have added the extra pulley then. It works quite well, though. -Dana -- A rolling stone .... kills worms ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Keeping the Firefly part 103 legal From: "Ralph B" Even this old Firestar is over 300 lbs. Ralph -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 23 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 2 years flying it 120 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286669#286669 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/firestar_740.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:38 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim From: "Eugene Zimmerman" Ellery, My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using adjustable horizontal stabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this is because of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface area of the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab. On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading edge of the stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevator have a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as it passed over the stab. It actually now required even more back stick pressure to keep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevator were now misaligned with a combined camber that is opposite what is necessary for the downward direction of the force on the tail to raise the nose. I attached an in-flight picture where you can see this opposite camber of the stab & elevator necessary to produce downward force of the tail. Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal stab to align with the natural inflight position of elevator and much to my amazement it improved the trim greatly. I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is much more effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim, though I'm not saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical linkage of the stock kolb elevator. My conclusion is that trying to use adjustable stab incidence for pitch control on a Kolb is ineffective and a wast of time and effort. Merely sharing my experience. Gene Z Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286693#286693 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0115_204.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:35 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Kolb-List: Old Kolb Pilots An old Kolb friend (Scott Trask - long time members or the list will remember him) stopped for a visit hear in Florida. He had a new engine in his RV7A and wanted to brake it in so a flight to Florida was in order. We made a short flight Venice FL to Everglades City for some fish. Thanks for the recommendation Mike B the fish is super. Scott still has his early Kolb MKIIIC that he flies out of his home strip in Iron Mountain, MI but now has a fast traveling air plane for the long cross countries. His plane at everglades is attached. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:43 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: In flight Adjustable Trim Ellery, My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using the horizontal stabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this is because of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface area of the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab. On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading edge of the stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevator have a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as it passed over the stab. It actually now required as much or even more back stick pressure to keep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevator were now misaligned with an opposite camber for the necessary direction control force to raise the nose. I attached an in-flight picture where this opposite camber of the stab & elevator to produce downward force of the tail can be seen. Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal stab to align with the natural inflight position elevator and much to my amazement it improved the trim greatly. I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is much more effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim, though I'm not saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical linkage of the stock kolb elevator. Merely sharing my experience. Gene Z On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote: > Has anyone on the list ever thought of designing something to adjust > the horizontal stabilizers like on a cub to trim a Kolb it just > makes more sense to me because it would be a positive trim and not > make more drag , the spring system just doesn't work as great as it > should for me the air temps change so much the springs are not > consistent enough for me. > I rebuilt the elevators on my old firestar a few years ago and built > a inflight trim tab into one of the elevators with great results, > but that would make more drag than a stabilizer trim system what are > your opinions ? > > The reason I ask, I am working on a electric project to do just this > on a Kolb Mk3 it might be a waste of my time but I have to try it > anyway thanks for your time and input. > > Ellery Batchelder Jr. > > Kolb Mk3C > N213, 582 Rotax > Garmin AERA ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim From: Ellery Batchelder Jr Eugene thanks for your input that's the kind of info I was looking for, someone that has tried it. I had my old firestar able to fly hands off long distance with a trim tab in the elevator I want to make my Mk3 fly as well ,if I let go of the sti ck it wants to take a dive the way it is now and I don't like it that way i am just trying to figure out the best way to correct it. Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Zimmerman Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 4:56 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim Ellery, My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using adjustable horizontal tabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this is ecause of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface area f the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab. On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading edge of he stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevato r ave a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as it assed over the stab. It actually now required even more back stick pressu re to eep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevat or ere now misaligned with a combined camber that is opposite what is necess ary or the downward direction of the force on the tail to raise the nose. I attached an in-flight picture where you can see this opposite camber of the tab & elevator necessary to produce downward force of the tail. Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal st ab to lign with the natural inflight position of elevator and much to my amazeme nt it mproved the trim greatly. I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is much ore effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim, though I'm ot saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical inkage of the stock kolb elevator. My conclusion is that trying to use adjustable stab incidence for pitch co ntrol n a Kolb is ineffective and a wast of time and effort. Merely sharing my experience. Gene Z ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286693#286693 ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0115_204.jpg -======================== ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.